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As you can see, there have been three discussions regarding deletion of this article. One of the primary concerns is the possibility of the scope of the article being too broad. That is why for the article to confirm to standards it is necessary to limit entries to serious crimes. While the editor may use their discretion in interpreting the meaning of the word "serious", it should certainly imply a crime that would ordinarily result in a prison sentence (note the difference between prison and jail, being incarcerated for less than a month would normally be in jail). Including every athlete to receive a conviction for driving while intoxicated or simple assault would be completely unwieldy. CitiCat ♫ 18:20, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
I think you might have more luck of getting more contributors if you expand the categories and perhaps link to the appropriate pages.-- Hourick 18:02, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Maybe you could add Greg Skrepenak? Former Carolina Panther turned felon. 68.81.178.64 ( talk) 20:20, 29 June 2013 (UTC) JoeBob
How about if you change it from "English Football" to "Soccer" (which is a more correct term and will stop you having a load of different countries having to be listed)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by SexyIrishLeprechaun ( talk • contribs) 13:17, August 28, 2007 (UTC)
You forgot former Dallas Cowboy Eugene Lockhart. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Lockhart 205.172.134.23 ( talk) 18:10, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
The title of the article is "List of professional athletes who have been convicted of crimes," but the first sentence states felonies. Technically, crimes would also include misdemeanors, no? Also, the next sentence says it includes amateurs, too. So, should the article be "List of atheletes convicted of felonies", which also, by the way, eliminates unnecessary passive voice/wordiness? Regards, -- Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles Tally-ho! 04:03, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
How about instead of "such as felonies" we use the wording "generally those that resulted in the perpetrator being incarcerated?" CitiCat ♫ 03:45, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
The result of the discussion was to move the article. — An gr If you've written a quality article... 11:33, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
List of professional athletes convicted of crimes → List of professional sportspeople convicted of crimes — Requesting move as sportspeople are more of a wider term and it would be more easier for others to add other people from other non-athletic sport in — Willirennen ( talk) 18:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
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polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.I'm now thinking the page move may have been a bad idea - The inclusion of Vic Lee may show that the criteria is now too broad. There are many people involved in management at some level or partial ownership, and a certain percentage of them will have a criminal conviction. A list should be manageable, not ever-expanding. Also as to Phil Taylor, while I don't want to argue the inclusion of a darts player, in general I think only those sentenced to prison (or similarly punished) should be included. If every drunk driving, drug possession and simple assault case is included, the list would be massive. CitiCat ♫ 05:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Making two deletions. Carlton Dotson was never a professional. And while profession wrestling is athletic, sportspeople refers to people who are paid for competitions, which wrestling is not, so I'm removing Larry Pfohl and that section. Reading the deletion discussions at the top of this page shows that the scope must be limited to make this page meaningful. CitiCat ♫ 12:54, May 4, 2009 (UTC)
An probably a whole bunch of people in Category:Sports controversies and its subcats. MickMacNee ( talk) 20:47, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
So, there were a few points raised (many of them by me) at the AfD that should be tackled at an editorial level rather than a deletion level. Couple of proposals for discussion:
This is where I start poking holes into the premise of this list as currently worded. Using your #3 argument is quite a big change of scope (i.e. "during or soon after their playing career ended"). To pick a particularly egregious example, Garth le Roux (South African cricketer in the 1980's) was recently arrested for tax evasion, MANY years after his playing career ended and entirely in relation to his business interests since his retirement. Which reminds me, add tax evasion and fraud to #2 as things that should be removed from this list. Is the intention of this list to include white collar criminals as well? Zunaid 21:39, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Well I've made 2 suggestions for clearly defined lines as per the 2 separate list ideas above. I've tried (as have others at the AfD and yourself in this thread) to draw a line somewhere, without much success. Everything proposed so far seems like an arbitrary cut-off. If anyone can come up with a different idea than having 2 separate lists then it will be good to consider. Zunaid 09:51, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
No further input since last week, so starting tomorrow I'm going to prune the list of all the "non-serious" crimes as discussed, if anyone can come up with clearly defined lines for this list then please suggest it, otherwise I propose that we go ahead and split this list in two as suggested. ZUNAID● FOREVER 07:30, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
This is starting to turn into AfD Round 2. Is there a need to catch ALL serious crimes? Isn't that the same as "List of carpenters convicted of crimes", "List of dentists convicted of crimes" etc.? I don't see the need to list people convicted in their private capacity, especially if it is after they've left the sport, or something not related to their sport. ZUNAID● FOREVER 11:53, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
I'll post an RfC, let's get some more eyes on this. I don't feel comfortable taking a decision with only a handful of people's input. As to your comments, the title and lead would have to change if we do decide to change the criteria. I'm not sure how much overlap there would be of my 2-list idea, how many people commit murder "within their sport"? The only overlap between I can see would come from bribery, corruption, drug-taking and maybe tax evasion related to earnings. ZUNAID● FOREVER 18:02, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
The history of the current discussion is in the above section and at last AfD which just recently closed as no consensus. Basically at this point we are rehashing the same arguments and need outside input to provide some guidance. On the one hand some (not necessarily all) editors acknowledge that the current scope of the article is too broad, but on the other hand there has been no progress in drawing a line on what to include and exclude without ending up with arbitrary rules. Is there a better way of doing this or are the current inclusion criteria fine as they are? Please evaluate the suggestions given above as well, for changing the scope and/or splitting the list vs. maintaining the status quo. Thanks. ZUNAID● FOREVER 18:15, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
As with the removal of René Higuita for failing to meet the article's scope, what about Junior Johnson, his conviction was pardoned, at least by President Reagan, so isn't that the same thing. So I am going to assume that being pardoned by the head of state will get you a mention on this list and getting it quashed after appeal won't. Donnie Park ( talk) 13:08, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
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150 years? Really? 108.71.123.163 ( talk) 18:16, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
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Why are both of these players not on the list for American football? Both have been convicted of serious felonies. IEditThingsForYou ( talk) 13:10, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
There's a glaring omission in these lists: the year of each crime! Readers have absolutely no idea when they happened when browsing the listings, which is very frustrating. A column with the year each crime was committed should be added to all the tables. The best place for it would be the second column, right after the person's name. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:D9CE:6ADE:B23E:6 ( talk) 15:43, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
In the ongoing effort to make the scope of the article very clear, we seem to have run into yet another ambiguity with the article definition. The statement "It comprises both professionals and those amateurs who have competed at the highest levels." was designed to allow for sports that do not have professionals (such as many Olympic sports), and based on previous discussions the statement was meant to infer an athlete who is at the highest level of their sport, whether that highest level be professional or amateur. However, it could read to mean "in each sport, professionals, and also amateurs at the highest level". Since including amateurs of any and every sport would expand the scope uncontrollably, I don't think the second definition would be reasonable. Any thoughts on a clearer opening statement? If necessary amateurs could be eliminated entirely. CitiCat ♫ 16:55, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
I propose that the section Baseball be split into a separate page called List of professional baseball players convicted of crimes. This section is certainly large enough to make its own page (and I've got several more articles bookmarked so as to expand it) and this article is already above the size at which it should "almost certainly should be divided" per Wikipedia:SIZESPLIT. I'm sure several of these sections could be big enough to become their own standalone articles if given a bit more attention. My only concern, however, is whether these sections would be notable enough as standalone articles. Dennis C. Abrams ( talk) 23:39, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article was nominated for
deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
|
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on July 23 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on March 5 2008. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
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![]() | This is a stand-alone list that meets list notability criteria. Please only add items that meet the selection criteria established in the lead. |
As you can see, there have been three discussions regarding deletion of this article. One of the primary concerns is the possibility of the scope of the article being too broad. That is why for the article to confirm to standards it is necessary to limit entries to serious crimes. While the editor may use their discretion in interpreting the meaning of the word "serious", it should certainly imply a crime that would ordinarily result in a prison sentence (note the difference between prison and jail, being incarcerated for less than a month would normally be in jail). Including every athlete to receive a conviction for driving while intoxicated or simple assault would be completely unwieldy. CitiCat ♫ 18:20, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
I think you might have more luck of getting more contributors if you expand the categories and perhaps link to the appropriate pages.-- Hourick 18:02, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Maybe you could add Greg Skrepenak? Former Carolina Panther turned felon. 68.81.178.64 ( talk) 20:20, 29 June 2013 (UTC) JoeBob
How about if you change it from "English Football" to "Soccer" (which is a more correct term and will stop you having a load of different countries having to be listed)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by SexyIrishLeprechaun ( talk • contribs) 13:17, August 28, 2007 (UTC)
You forgot former Dallas Cowboy Eugene Lockhart. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Lockhart 205.172.134.23 ( talk) 18:10, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
The title of the article is "List of professional athletes who have been convicted of crimes," but the first sentence states felonies. Technically, crimes would also include misdemeanors, no? Also, the next sentence says it includes amateurs, too. So, should the article be "List of atheletes convicted of felonies", which also, by the way, eliminates unnecessary passive voice/wordiness? Regards, -- Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles Tally-ho! 04:03, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
How about instead of "such as felonies" we use the wording "generally those that resulted in the perpetrator being incarcerated?" CitiCat ♫ 03:45, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
The result of the discussion was to move the article. — An gr If you've written a quality article... 11:33, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
List of professional athletes convicted of crimes → List of professional sportspeople convicted of crimes — Requesting move as sportspeople are more of a wider term and it would be more easier for others to add other people from other non-athletic sport in — Willirennen ( talk) 18:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.I'm now thinking the page move may have been a bad idea - The inclusion of Vic Lee may show that the criteria is now too broad. There are many people involved in management at some level or partial ownership, and a certain percentage of them will have a criminal conviction. A list should be manageable, not ever-expanding. Also as to Phil Taylor, while I don't want to argue the inclusion of a darts player, in general I think only those sentenced to prison (or similarly punished) should be included. If every drunk driving, drug possession and simple assault case is included, the list would be massive. CitiCat ♫ 05:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Making two deletions. Carlton Dotson was never a professional. And while profession wrestling is athletic, sportspeople refers to people who are paid for competitions, which wrestling is not, so I'm removing Larry Pfohl and that section. Reading the deletion discussions at the top of this page shows that the scope must be limited to make this page meaningful. CitiCat ♫ 12:54, May 4, 2009 (UTC)
An probably a whole bunch of people in Category:Sports controversies and its subcats. MickMacNee ( talk) 20:47, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
So, there were a few points raised (many of them by me) at the AfD that should be tackled at an editorial level rather than a deletion level. Couple of proposals for discussion:
This is where I start poking holes into the premise of this list as currently worded. Using your #3 argument is quite a big change of scope (i.e. "during or soon after their playing career ended"). To pick a particularly egregious example, Garth le Roux (South African cricketer in the 1980's) was recently arrested for tax evasion, MANY years after his playing career ended and entirely in relation to his business interests since his retirement. Which reminds me, add tax evasion and fraud to #2 as things that should be removed from this list. Is the intention of this list to include white collar criminals as well? Zunaid 21:39, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Well I've made 2 suggestions for clearly defined lines as per the 2 separate list ideas above. I've tried (as have others at the AfD and yourself in this thread) to draw a line somewhere, without much success. Everything proposed so far seems like an arbitrary cut-off. If anyone can come up with a different idea than having 2 separate lists then it will be good to consider. Zunaid 09:51, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
No further input since last week, so starting tomorrow I'm going to prune the list of all the "non-serious" crimes as discussed, if anyone can come up with clearly defined lines for this list then please suggest it, otherwise I propose that we go ahead and split this list in two as suggested. ZUNAID● FOREVER 07:30, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
This is starting to turn into AfD Round 2. Is there a need to catch ALL serious crimes? Isn't that the same as "List of carpenters convicted of crimes", "List of dentists convicted of crimes" etc.? I don't see the need to list people convicted in their private capacity, especially if it is after they've left the sport, or something not related to their sport. ZUNAID● FOREVER 11:53, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
I'll post an RfC, let's get some more eyes on this. I don't feel comfortable taking a decision with only a handful of people's input. As to your comments, the title and lead would have to change if we do decide to change the criteria. I'm not sure how much overlap there would be of my 2-list idea, how many people commit murder "within their sport"? The only overlap between I can see would come from bribery, corruption, drug-taking and maybe tax evasion related to earnings. ZUNAID● FOREVER 18:02, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
The history of the current discussion is in the above section and at last AfD which just recently closed as no consensus. Basically at this point we are rehashing the same arguments and need outside input to provide some guidance. On the one hand some (not necessarily all) editors acknowledge that the current scope of the article is too broad, but on the other hand there has been no progress in drawing a line on what to include and exclude without ending up with arbitrary rules. Is there a better way of doing this or are the current inclusion criteria fine as they are? Please evaluate the suggestions given above as well, for changing the scope and/or splitting the list vs. maintaining the status quo. Thanks. ZUNAID● FOREVER 18:15, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
As with the removal of René Higuita for failing to meet the article's scope, what about Junior Johnson, his conviction was pardoned, at least by President Reagan, so isn't that the same thing. So I am going to assume that being pardoned by the head of state will get you a mention on this list and getting it quashed after appeal won't. Donnie Park ( talk) 13:08, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
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150 years? Really? 108.71.123.163 ( talk) 18:16, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
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Why are both of these players not on the list for American football? Both have been convicted of serious felonies. IEditThingsForYou ( talk) 13:10, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
There's a glaring omission in these lists: the year of each crime! Readers have absolutely no idea when they happened when browsing the listings, which is very frustrating. A column with the year each crime was committed should be added to all the tables. The best place for it would be the second column, right after the person's name. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:D9CE:6ADE:B23E:6 ( talk) 15:43, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
In the ongoing effort to make the scope of the article very clear, we seem to have run into yet another ambiguity with the article definition. The statement "It comprises both professionals and those amateurs who have competed at the highest levels." was designed to allow for sports that do not have professionals (such as many Olympic sports), and based on previous discussions the statement was meant to infer an athlete who is at the highest level of their sport, whether that highest level be professional or amateur. However, it could read to mean "in each sport, professionals, and also amateurs at the highest level". Since including amateurs of any and every sport would expand the scope uncontrollably, I don't think the second definition would be reasonable. Any thoughts on a clearer opening statement? If necessary amateurs could be eliminated entirely. CitiCat ♫ 16:55, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
I propose that the section Baseball be split into a separate page called List of professional baseball players convicted of crimes. This section is certainly large enough to make its own page (and I've got several more articles bookmarked so as to expand it) and this article is already above the size at which it should "almost certainly should be divided" per Wikipedia:SIZESPLIT. I'm sure several of these sections could be big enough to become their own standalone articles if given a bit more attention. My only concern, however, is whether these sections would be notable enough as standalone articles. Dennis C. Abrams ( talk) 23:39, 4 February 2022 (UTC)