This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
This page is not a forum for general discussion about List of organizations that self-identify as Native American tribes. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about List of organizations that self-identify as Native American tribes at the Reference desk. |
|
||
New York State's Montaukett were terminated in 1918 due to a court case called Pharoah v. Benson.
Pharoah v. Benson wasn't part of the BIA's termination policy from the middle of the 20th century, but it was a tribal termination. The tribe was previously recognized by the federal government; there's a reference to this in a BIA document (which I would need to dig up to show, unfortunately).
There are multiple branches of the tribe (which is why there's a Montauk tribe and a Montaukett tribe listed). But this has to do with claims to leadership.
Is there a reason I'm not seeing for why the Montaukett are on this list, when this list isn't supposed to include terminated tribes? 75.128.218.237 ( talk) 20:47, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
A user added the White Bear Clan of North and South Carolina as an unrecognized tribe, without providing any reference. There was/is a White Bear Clan in the Tuscarora tribe, which is attested among the Tuscarora that moved north. The clan apparently was created in the early 18th century for a couple of white women who had been adopted into the tribe. [1] [2] A recent source indicates that at least some Tuscarora regard the White Bear Clan as illegitimate. [3] I gather that some Tuscaroras may have stayed in the Carolinas, but without retaining tribal cohesion. I do not know whether any Tuscarora who remained in the Carolinas belonged to the White Bear Clan. In any case, without any source that the White Bear Clan has any actual existance, I removed the edit. - Donald Albury 01:18, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
References
The entry on the Ramapough is inaccurate and should be removed- they are one of New Jersey's 3 state recognized tribes, (along with the Nanticoke Lenape and the Powhatan Renape). They also continue to have representatives on the state's Commission of American Indian Affairs as a result of that status. (Ramapough Mountain Indians is another name for the same tribal government)
Listing alleged details of their Federal Recognition process while ignoring their New Jersey State Recognition is a misleading non sequitur, since the list is only supposed to contain tribes that have no recognition at all.
There were controversial attempts under Governor Christie to delist all three tribes without due process or consultation with the state's Commission on American Indian Affairs, but the state formally rejected this move and in 2019 NJ Attorney General Gurbir Grewal reaffirmed the other 2 tribes following a major court settlement with the Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape to address harms they experienced from Christie's actions. The Ramapough were been acknowledged as having uninterrupted recognition as "American Indian Tribes recognized by the State,” [1] (of New Jersey) since 1980.
Some relevant sources from the New Jersey government and official statements to the press.
https://www.nj.gov/oag/newsreleases19/pr20190318b.html
https://www.nj.gov/state/njcaia-about.shtml
Ciran42 ( talk) 02:12, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
I moved the following material from the article to this talk for discussion:
This statement is misleading since any group can apply for federal recognition; despite Virginia having misleading censuses that did not allow people to identify as being American Indian, Virginia tribes have successfully gained recognition through the formal acknowledgment process (Pamunkey) and through congressional legislation. While some people do mistakenly believe state recognition is somehow related to federal recognition, they are totally independent, since states determine their own processes for recognition; there's no uniformity. While not mentioned in the editorial comment above, the main point of the cited article is that "racial purity specifically requires the demonstrable absence of African-American ancestry." That racist perspective is not part of the criteria for federal recognition (nor is blood quantum unless the tribe itself requires it), and many tribes with significant African-American ancestry have gained federal recognition (including the Pequot, Mashpee Wampanoag, Aquinnah Wampanoag, Shinnecock, and Augustine Cahuilla). Because there is so much misinformation out there, here are the current seven criteria for federal recognition as a Native American tribe:
Yuchitown ( talk) 16:40, 27 November 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown
While this list should be as inclusive as possible, unfortunately, the group Conestoga-Susquehannock Tribe doesn't appear in any published material, and using its own website as a citation could be viewed as promotional, so I removed them from the list and am mentioning them here in case they appear in a secondary, published source in the near future. Yuchitown ( talk) 17:47, 27 November 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown
References
Might List of Native American heritage groups be a better title? Bohemian Baltimore ( talk) 10:32, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
OK then. How about
We could do "Organizations" but I'm trying to keep it less wordy, and "groups" might be more inclusive of less-formal, unincorporated groups? - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 22:59, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
Would Organizations that self-identify as Native American tribes work? Or would Unrecognized organizations that self-identify as Native American tribes be better? — Yuchitown ( talk) 15:47, 9 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown
Many organizations self-identify as Native American tribes or heritage groups. For organizations that are recognized by the government of the United States as Native American tribes, see [[List of federally recognized tribes in the contiguous United States]]. For organizations that are recognized by the government of one of the states as Native American tribes, see [[State-recognized tribes in the United States]]. Other organizations that self-identify as Native American that have not been recognized by the government of the United States or by any state government are listed below.Donald Albury 19:06, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
Groups that self-identify as Native American Tribes
This is a list of groups that self-identify as Native American tribes or heritage groups, but have not been recognized as tribes by the established Native American tribes, or by the Federal or State governments.
For groups that are recognized by the government of the United States as Native American tribes and tribal nations, see List of federally recognized tribes in the contiguous United States. For groups that are recognized by a state government as a Native American tribe, see State-recognized tribes in the United States.- CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 21:02, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
I prefer organizations but can definitely live with Groups that self-identify as Native American tribes. The self-identification, I would guess, implies a lack of even state-recognition. Yuchitown ( talk) 23:44, 10 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown
Organization that self-identify as Native American Tribes
These organizations self-identify as Native American tribes or heritage groups, but have not been recognized as tribes by the established Native American tribes, or by the Federal or State governments.
For groups that are recognized by the government of the United States as Native American tribes and tribal nations, see List of federally recognized tribes in the contiguous United States. For groups that are recognized by a state government as a Native American tribe, see State-recognized tribes in the United States.- CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 23:14, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
I found these names hidden in a note under "Arkansas"; however, several of these don't appear to be from Arkansas. I'm placing them here until they can be cited and entered under the appropriate state. Yuchitown ( talk) 16:55, 12 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown "Accused as "Suspected Fraudulent Organizations" by American Indian Heritage Support Center; check if unrecognized or fraudulent:
In the intro, I edited it to say, "Most of these organizations are not accepted as being Native American by established Native American tribes," because there are historic tribes in California who signed treaties that were never ratified, and then while most terminated tribes regained their federal recognition (or at least state-recognition with the Chinook Indian Tribe), quite a few in California have yet to do so. So neighboring tribes do acknowledge these people as being Native American. Yuchitown ( talk) 19:19, 12 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown
What about groups that have acknowledgement and community from federally recognized tribes? Why are people clumping them with fake heritage groups? If they are recognized by real tribes, I think a distinction should be made next to the tribal group. I added next to the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas that they have been recognized by Apache tribes, like for example, by (at the time) Chairwoman Gwendena Lee of the White Mountain Apache tribe, and Terry Rambler of the San Carlos Apache Tribe and have made community with other Apache tribal leaders who acknowledge them. They were invited and attend the private Apache Alliance Summit meetings as well as ceremony, showing that they have ties and community with federal recognized tribes. Should more texts like those be put next to the tribal group so people can know they aren't fraudulent? Thank you. Madigoosh ( talk) 07:36, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
I would love for other established editors to join this conversation. This list includes organizations commonly regarded as legitimate and others regarded as fraudulent. What is objectively known, verifiable, and coming from a neutral point of view is that all of these U.S.-based organizations are neither federally nor state-recognized tribes. You are welcome to mention on the organization's article that they attended the Apache Alliance Summit, but attending a meeting doesn't belong here, and in 2021 the Apache Alliance included nine Apache tribes, all federally recognized. You are drawing conclusions that are not reflected in secondary, published literature. Please read up on WP:PROMO, WP:COI, WP:OR, and WP:SOCKPUPPETRY. Yuchitown ( talk) 02:04, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown
@ User:Yuchitown I just realized there isn't a page or category for self-identifying groups in Canada. Do you think there might be enough content to do that in the future and what page title would you recommend? Thank you. Bohemian Baltimore ( talk) 12:20, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Re: "There are three ways that Native American tribes are acknowledged in the United States: federal recognition, state recognition, or recognition by established tribes."
Suggested edit: Currently, there are four broadly recognized social-political dynamics defining the internal acknowledgement (i.e. "recognition") of Native American tribal peoples ("Tribes") resourced by the United States government's system of federal acknowledgement and politically positioned within the U.S. "nation-to-nation" relationship with Indigenous peoples and the many independent Indigenous tribal communities who are not formally resourced by the United States, do not have formal nation-to-nation procedures or mechanisms, are, by self-definition, of places and territories occupied by the United States. Recognition of Indigenous peoples in various forms have evolved unevenly under systemic and structural conditions of historical race codifications enacted by multiple colonial European nations and their successor settler colonial governments. Native American tribes and federally non-recognized Indigenous peoples, codified as a binary into the United States' Western legal framework, experience on-going colonizations, differently, resulting in complex intra- and inter-group disparities, inequities and fractious politics enacted by the United States internally and between Indigenous peoples. These categories of recognition relevant to the debates on Indigenous self-identification are, but not limited to: federal recognition, state recognition, recognition by federally recognized tribes, and self-recognition.
Inviting: subject-matter experts on inter-ethnic violence, inter-tribal violence, ethnocide, inter-ethnic cyberwarfare, ethnic nationalism
FactBanquet ( talk) 16:46, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
I submitted Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/TelGonzie, and don't want to get into trouble for WP:3RR, but there is no consensus to add the original research. "Recognition by established tribes" is simply not a thing ( Google search). Newly invented concepts that push a POV promoting one group does not belong in this or any other articles. Yuchitown ( talk) 17:59, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown
"Can anybody truly argue that somebody who's moved to the US from, say, Yellow Knife or Otovalo cannot claim to be an American Indian because, er, they don't have a CDIB?These groups can claim to be tribes all they want but if reliable independent sources can not verify this then Wikipedia can not include it. -- ARose Wolf 21:05, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
Hopefully, this will all come to an end soon, but this article is exclusively about organizations within the United States. Yuchitown ( talk) 22:25, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown
"These organizations, located within the United States, self-identify as Native American tribes or heritage groups, but they are not federally recognized tribes or state-recognized tribes."} I don't know how much clearer that needs to be. We aren't focused on Canada in this article. And this list mentions no individuals but organizations. The statement is true. These organizations do not receive any recognition, in reliable sources, as to their legitimacy. Therefore Wikipedia saying they self-identify is correct. They make a claim that is not verified in reliable independent sources. We are giving them as much respect as we can within policy and also allowing that it can changed once reliable sources are found that they have such recognition. -- ARose Wolf 12:09, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
"Perhaps I should give up and get off this talk and go straight to your pages and to post WP-proper references to these refugee Indians all over your pages and ask for WP Spanish and Portuguese translation so Indians from around the world (meatpuppets?) can join this conversion."
I invite your meatpuppets to join.Are you threatening to canvass meatpuppets to ENWP to edit war content in that consensus and policy is saying doesn't belong? All human beings have a right to self-determination. That does not mean anyone is forced to accept their unproven claims of being Indigenous. -- ARose Wolf 12:33, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
There is not consensus for the changes that are proposed. Unfortunately, a fleet of sockpuppets and possible meatpuppets have flown in who are trying to push their POV here. Please discontinue canvassing and creating additional user accounts to try to make your arguments, several socks have already lost their editing privileges. If the disruption continues, Page Protection may need to be applied. Netherzone ( talk) 00:01, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
greetings Wikipedians, just here to support this page's development, and happy to offer suggestions/questions to improve the page, where and when suggestions can be productive for building consensus.
Great to see this subject getting the attention it deserves. Respectfully suggesting WP:INCITE, WP:NPOV for sentence, "Most of these organizations are not accepted as being Native American by established Native American tribes." This claim needs supportive evidence.
Wondering, since this is a U.S.-based context, as noted in above thread, would it be more productive to create consistency (re: definitional meaning of key terms of reference) by replacing "established Native American tribes" with "federally recognized tribes"? It seems the latter terminology would be more precise, re: the U.S.-based identity distinctions being addressed, wherein, the subject's main issue is reliant upon the U.S. government terminology to understand its parameters clearly; which the term "self-identify" is being compared to and shaped by. Changing the terminology would help to satisfy for neutrality and precision. At some future point in time, it could be very useful, as a sub-section, to offer readers opportunities to learn the historicized and contextualized issues that have led to self-identification as a significant socio-political strategies of many federally non-recognized Indigenous peoples of/ undergoing U.S./North American colonization.
Also, if "established Native American tribes" remains, how is this phrase is defined by scholarly subject-matter experts, the U.S. government, and from multitudes of stake holders on both sides of the issue?
FactBanquet ( talk) 14:49, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
This page is not a forum for general discussion about List of organizations that self-identify as Native American tribes. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about List of organizations that self-identify as Native American tribes at the Reference desk. |
|
||
New York State's Montaukett were terminated in 1918 due to a court case called Pharoah v. Benson.
Pharoah v. Benson wasn't part of the BIA's termination policy from the middle of the 20th century, but it was a tribal termination. The tribe was previously recognized by the federal government; there's a reference to this in a BIA document (which I would need to dig up to show, unfortunately).
There are multiple branches of the tribe (which is why there's a Montauk tribe and a Montaukett tribe listed). But this has to do with claims to leadership.
Is there a reason I'm not seeing for why the Montaukett are on this list, when this list isn't supposed to include terminated tribes? 75.128.218.237 ( talk) 20:47, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
A user added the White Bear Clan of North and South Carolina as an unrecognized tribe, without providing any reference. There was/is a White Bear Clan in the Tuscarora tribe, which is attested among the Tuscarora that moved north. The clan apparently was created in the early 18th century for a couple of white women who had been adopted into the tribe. [1] [2] A recent source indicates that at least some Tuscarora regard the White Bear Clan as illegitimate. [3] I gather that some Tuscaroras may have stayed in the Carolinas, but without retaining tribal cohesion. I do not know whether any Tuscarora who remained in the Carolinas belonged to the White Bear Clan. In any case, without any source that the White Bear Clan has any actual existance, I removed the edit. - Donald Albury 01:18, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
References
The entry on the Ramapough is inaccurate and should be removed- they are one of New Jersey's 3 state recognized tribes, (along with the Nanticoke Lenape and the Powhatan Renape). They also continue to have representatives on the state's Commission of American Indian Affairs as a result of that status. (Ramapough Mountain Indians is another name for the same tribal government)
Listing alleged details of their Federal Recognition process while ignoring their New Jersey State Recognition is a misleading non sequitur, since the list is only supposed to contain tribes that have no recognition at all.
There were controversial attempts under Governor Christie to delist all three tribes without due process or consultation with the state's Commission on American Indian Affairs, but the state formally rejected this move and in 2019 NJ Attorney General Gurbir Grewal reaffirmed the other 2 tribes following a major court settlement with the Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape to address harms they experienced from Christie's actions. The Ramapough were been acknowledged as having uninterrupted recognition as "American Indian Tribes recognized by the State,” [1] (of New Jersey) since 1980.
Some relevant sources from the New Jersey government and official statements to the press.
https://www.nj.gov/oag/newsreleases19/pr20190318b.html
https://www.nj.gov/state/njcaia-about.shtml
Ciran42 ( talk) 02:12, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
I moved the following material from the article to this talk for discussion:
This statement is misleading since any group can apply for federal recognition; despite Virginia having misleading censuses that did not allow people to identify as being American Indian, Virginia tribes have successfully gained recognition through the formal acknowledgment process (Pamunkey) and through congressional legislation. While some people do mistakenly believe state recognition is somehow related to federal recognition, they are totally independent, since states determine their own processes for recognition; there's no uniformity. While not mentioned in the editorial comment above, the main point of the cited article is that "racial purity specifically requires the demonstrable absence of African-American ancestry." That racist perspective is not part of the criteria for federal recognition (nor is blood quantum unless the tribe itself requires it), and many tribes with significant African-American ancestry have gained federal recognition (including the Pequot, Mashpee Wampanoag, Aquinnah Wampanoag, Shinnecock, and Augustine Cahuilla). Because there is so much misinformation out there, here are the current seven criteria for federal recognition as a Native American tribe:
Yuchitown ( talk) 16:40, 27 November 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown
While this list should be as inclusive as possible, unfortunately, the group Conestoga-Susquehannock Tribe doesn't appear in any published material, and using its own website as a citation could be viewed as promotional, so I removed them from the list and am mentioning them here in case they appear in a secondary, published source in the near future. Yuchitown ( talk) 17:47, 27 November 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown
References
Might List of Native American heritage groups be a better title? Bohemian Baltimore ( talk) 10:32, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
OK then. How about
We could do "Organizations" but I'm trying to keep it less wordy, and "groups" might be more inclusive of less-formal, unincorporated groups? - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 22:59, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
Would Organizations that self-identify as Native American tribes work? Or would Unrecognized organizations that self-identify as Native American tribes be better? — Yuchitown ( talk) 15:47, 9 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown
Many organizations self-identify as Native American tribes or heritage groups. For organizations that are recognized by the government of the United States as Native American tribes, see [[List of federally recognized tribes in the contiguous United States]]. For organizations that are recognized by the government of one of the states as Native American tribes, see [[State-recognized tribes in the United States]]. Other organizations that self-identify as Native American that have not been recognized by the government of the United States or by any state government are listed below.Donald Albury 19:06, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
Groups that self-identify as Native American Tribes
This is a list of groups that self-identify as Native American tribes or heritage groups, but have not been recognized as tribes by the established Native American tribes, or by the Federal or State governments.
For groups that are recognized by the government of the United States as Native American tribes and tribal nations, see List of federally recognized tribes in the contiguous United States. For groups that are recognized by a state government as a Native American tribe, see State-recognized tribes in the United States.- CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 21:02, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
I prefer organizations but can definitely live with Groups that self-identify as Native American tribes. The self-identification, I would guess, implies a lack of even state-recognition. Yuchitown ( talk) 23:44, 10 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown
Organization that self-identify as Native American Tribes
These organizations self-identify as Native American tribes or heritage groups, but have not been recognized as tribes by the established Native American tribes, or by the Federal or State governments.
For groups that are recognized by the government of the United States as Native American tribes and tribal nations, see List of federally recognized tribes in the contiguous United States. For groups that are recognized by a state government as a Native American tribe, see State-recognized tribes in the United States.- CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 23:14, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
I found these names hidden in a note under "Arkansas"; however, several of these don't appear to be from Arkansas. I'm placing them here until they can be cited and entered under the appropriate state. Yuchitown ( talk) 16:55, 12 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown "Accused as "Suspected Fraudulent Organizations" by American Indian Heritage Support Center; check if unrecognized or fraudulent:
In the intro, I edited it to say, "Most of these organizations are not accepted as being Native American by established Native American tribes," because there are historic tribes in California who signed treaties that were never ratified, and then while most terminated tribes regained their federal recognition (or at least state-recognition with the Chinook Indian Tribe), quite a few in California have yet to do so. So neighboring tribes do acknowledge these people as being Native American. Yuchitown ( talk) 19:19, 12 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown
What about groups that have acknowledgement and community from federally recognized tribes? Why are people clumping them with fake heritage groups? If they are recognized by real tribes, I think a distinction should be made next to the tribal group. I added next to the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas that they have been recognized by Apache tribes, like for example, by (at the time) Chairwoman Gwendena Lee of the White Mountain Apache tribe, and Terry Rambler of the San Carlos Apache Tribe and have made community with other Apache tribal leaders who acknowledge them. They were invited and attend the private Apache Alliance Summit meetings as well as ceremony, showing that they have ties and community with federal recognized tribes. Should more texts like those be put next to the tribal group so people can know they aren't fraudulent? Thank you. Madigoosh ( talk) 07:36, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
I would love for other established editors to join this conversation. This list includes organizations commonly regarded as legitimate and others regarded as fraudulent. What is objectively known, verifiable, and coming from a neutral point of view is that all of these U.S.-based organizations are neither federally nor state-recognized tribes. You are welcome to mention on the organization's article that they attended the Apache Alliance Summit, but attending a meeting doesn't belong here, and in 2021 the Apache Alliance included nine Apache tribes, all federally recognized. You are drawing conclusions that are not reflected in secondary, published literature. Please read up on WP:PROMO, WP:COI, WP:OR, and WP:SOCKPUPPETRY. Yuchitown ( talk) 02:04, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown
@ User:Yuchitown I just realized there isn't a page or category for self-identifying groups in Canada. Do you think there might be enough content to do that in the future and what page title would you recommend? Thank you. Bohemian Baltimore ( talk) 12:20, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Re: "There are three ways that Native American tribes are acknowledged in the United States: federal recognition, state recognition, or recognition by established tribes."
Suggested edit: Currently, there are four broadly recognized social-political dynamics defining the internal acknowledgement (i.e. "recognition") of Native American tribal peoples ("Tribes") resourced by the United States government's system of federal acknowledgement and politically positioned within the U.S. "nation-to-nation" relationship with Indigenous peoples and the many independent Indigenous tribal communities who are not formally resourced by the United States, do not have formal nation-to-nation procedures or mechanisms, are, by self-definition, of places and territories occupied by the United States. Recognition of Indigenous peoples in various forms have evolved unevenly under systemic and structural conditions of historical race codifications enacted by multiple colonial European nations and their successor settler colonial governments. Native American tribes and federally non-recognized Indigenous peoples, codified as a binary into the United States' Western legal framework, experience on-going colonizations, differently, resulting in complex intra- and inter-group disparities, inequities and fractious politics enacted by the United States internally and between Indigenous peoples. These categories of recognition relevant to the debates on Indigenous self-identification are, but not limited to: federal recognition, state recognition, recognition by federally recognized tribes, and self-recognition.
Inviting: subject-matter experts on inter-ethnic violence, inter-tribal violence, ethnocide, inter-ethnic cyberwarfare, ethnic nationalism
FactBanquet ( talk) 16:46, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
I submitted Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/TelGonzie, and don't want to get into trouble for WP:3RR, but there is no consensus to add the original research. "Recognition by established tribes" is simply not a thing ( Google search). Newly invented concepts that push a POV promoting one group does not belong in this or any other articles. Yuchitown ( talk) 17:59, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown
"Can anybody truly argue that somebody who's moved to the US from, say, Yellow Knife or Otovalo cannot claim to be an American Indian because, er, they don't have a CDIB?These groups can claim to be tribes all they want but if reliable independent sources can not verify this then Wikipedia can not include it. -- ARose Wolf 21:05, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
Hopefully, this will all come to an end soon, but this article is exclusively about organizations within the United States. Yuchitown ( talk) 22:25, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown
"These organizations, located within the United States, self-identify as Native American tribes or heritage groups, but they are not federally recognized tribes or state-recognized tribes."} I don't know how much clearer that needs to be. We aren't focused on Canada in this article. And this list mentions no individuals but organizations. The statement is true. These organizations do not receive any recognition, in reliable sources, as to their legitimacy. Therefore Wikipedia saying they self-identify is correct. They make a claim that is not verified in reliable independent sources. We are giving them as much respect as we can within policy and also allowing that it can changed once reliable sources are found that they have such recognition. -- ARose Wolf 12:09, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
"Perhaps I should give up and get off this talk and go straight to your pages and to post WP-proper references to these refugee Indians all over your pages and ask for WP Spanish and Portuguese translation so Indians from around the world (meatpuppets?) can join this conversion."
I invite your meatpuppets to join.Are you threatening to canvass meatpuppets to ENWP to edit war content in that consensus and policy is saying doesn't belong? All human beings have a right to self-determination. That does not mean anyone is forced to accept their unproven claims of being Indigenous. -- ARose Wolf 12:33, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
There is not consensus for the changes that are proposed. Unfortunately, a fleet of sockpuppets and possible meatpuppets have flown in who are trying to push their POV here. Please discontinue canvassing and creating additional user accounts to try to make your arguments, several socks have already lost their editing privileges. If the disruption continues, Page Protection may need to be applied. Netherzone ( talk) 00:01, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
greetings Wikipedians, just here to support this page's development, and happy to offer suggestions/questions to improve the page, where and when suggestions can be productive for building consensus.
Great to see this subject getting the attention it deserves. Respectfully suggesting WP:INCITE, WP:NPOV for sentence, "Most of these organizations are not accepted as being Native American by established Native American tribes." This claim needs supportive evidence.
Wondering, since this is a U.S.-based context, as noted in above thread, would it be more productive to create consistency (re: definitional meaning of key terms of reference) by replacing "established Native American tribes" with "federally recognized tribes"? It seems the latter terminology would be more precise, re: the U.S.-based identity distinctions being addressed, wherein, the subject's main issue is reliant upon the U.S. government terminology to understand its parameters clearly; which the term "self-identify" is being compared to and shaped by. Changing the terminology would help to satisfy for neutrality and precision. At some future point in time, it could be very useful, as a sub-section, to offer readers opportunities to learn the historicized and contextualized issues that have led to self-identification as a significant socio-political strategies of many federally non-recognized Indigenous peoples of/ undergoing U.S./North American colonization.
Also, if "established Native American tribes" remains, how is this phrase is defined by scholarly subject-matter experts, the U.S. government, and from multitudes of stake holders on both sides of the issue?
FactBanquet ( talk) 14:49, 13 January 2024 (UTC)