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To identify and resolve issues specific to individual corners or other landmarks. Not a list of every corner, but only those where issues have been raised. Includes copy-pasting of criticism of individual corners' rows from elsewhere, in order to facilitate orderly resolution of all such complaints.
I noticed that Agljones elsewhere asserts error in the Laurel Bank row. The row was based on information in the Laurel Bank article, provided by Agljones.
Reviewing the Laurel Bank article, I see it has survived since 2008 with almost no content. It only includes:
Otherwise the article contains only boilerplate text with no info about Laurel Bank per se:
This series of bends at Laurel Bank was part of the Highland Course and Four Inch Course used for the Gordon Bennett Trial and Tourist Trophy automobile car races held in the Isle of Man between 1904 and 1922. Also, Laurel Bank was part of the St. John's Short Course used between 1907 and 1910 and part of the Snaefell Mountain Course used since 1911 for the Isle of Man TT Races and from 1923 the Manx Grand Prix."
The current article has no information beyond what can easily be covered in its row in this list-article.
Further, the current article fails to identify what "Laurel Bank" is, and fails to assert importance ( wp:A7). In fact it is a named corner of the road and a vantage point for spectators viewing Isle of Man TT races. For example, per this source, it as a "Fast Right-Hand Turn" 8.75 miles from the SMC startline.
Quick google search on "Laurel Bank Isle of Man" yields nice 2010 Youtube clip showing 3 racers going through right-turn bend (one being John McGuiness), and news of a non-fatal racing accident ( "William Dunlop airlifted to hospital after crashing during Isle of Man TT practice lap" and about same), but no source of coverage substantially about Laurel Bank.
References
Given this, I will PROD the article for deletion, linking to this section. Done Laurel Bank's table-row in "List of named corners" already provides its location, and I will revise it now
Done (to identify it as a righthand bend rather than a series of bends and to give the Manx translation). --
do
ncr
am
13:39, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
Just to put a nail in it, as a redlink Stonebreaker's Hut (with apostrophe) shows up as an item in editor Agljones' preferred list as if it is a notable place, listed at mileage 29.58, and as I came across and am just now delinking an old link to it from the Verandah article. (By the way note that the next item in Agljones' list was Verandah at mileage 29.80, while in fact Verandah is a stretch of road not a point location and presumably starts before the location of the stonebreakers hut.) There was an article at Stonebreakers Hut (no apostrophe) which got up to this last version as an article, which IMHO was properly eliminated simply by redirection to Verandah, Isle of Man. There appears to have been no AFD about it. The article has text block repeated in many corner articles, and practically zero corner-specific content ...that the Crabtree crash "nearby" happened is covered, and better, in the Verandah article. The fact that there is or was a small building or two is not of encyclopedic interest, and can be mentioned if necessary (why?) in the Verandah article. Or just addressed by a photo and caption in the Verandah article, without being mentioned in any main text. No importance at all asserted or suggested.
11th Milestone. No description of location and the map coordinates can be found on the main article. The photo shows the larger Garrow style 13th milestone on the A3 Castletown to Ramsey Road and not the 11th Milestone. [...] The main emphasis should be on the road and the description of the S-Bend as the 11th Milestone is used as a local term to describe the area rather than the not widely used term Drinkwaters Bend.
Ballacraine. No photograph and the map coordinates can be found on the main article. The map coordinates show a field to the north-west of Ballacraine. The description should be A1 Douglas to Peel Road and A3 Castletown to Ramsey Road. The road junction is situated at the east end of St.Johns village and not Ballacraine village. Description is incorrect as the road junction contains Ballacraine farm and the former Ballacraine Hotel on opposite sides of the road and the non-existing "Ballacraine Village" does not overlook the two features. The translation of Ballacraine as a Manx Gaelic place-name is not listed. Again, informal speech pattens rather than British-English and should read "private residence" rather than "private house." --Agljones
A sharp corner that is a popular vantage point, where spectators can be very close to the riders. [1] Fatal accidents in 1955 [2] and 1994. [3] occurred coming into and out of this corner.
References
Location and the map coordinates can be found on the main article. It is not appropriate to list the fatal accident as they do not define the corner. Other fatal accidents have not been listed. Originally called Crossacks Lane(?)--Agljones
In this diff with summary "road traffic on A18 operates in both directions (potential issues of notability with linked article", an editor removed the description for Signpost Corner. The description was:
Right turn corner. When a rider passed, observers at a signal station here would telephone ahead to an official in the TT Grandstand area, who would switch that rider's individual scoreboard light on. This warned pit-crew and race-officials that the rider has passed Signpost Corner and may shortly be pulling into the pit lane at the TT Grandstand to refuel. [1]
References
I understand -- fully, it is obvious -- that while the corner is a righthander for racers, during the rest of the year it is a public two-way road, and then it is a left turn for the traffic going in the opposite direction. I think we can expect encyclopedia readers to understand that a right turn going one way is a left turn going the other way. Or, does someone think that is not obvious????
This is a list article of turns in a race-course...none of these places have any significance worthy of encyclopedia coverage apart from their role in the racing circuit.
It is perfectly accurate to describe it as a right turn, in context of describing them as turns in the SMC circuit. The intro to the list-article states the race is on public roads. It could further be stated in the intro that the descriptions below refer to turns in race direction. I will add such a statement, and will be happy to see the wording refined there. However the same editor has repeatedly removed almost all introduction to the article, so I don't know whether that will be "allowed" if that editor is in charge of wikipedia.
The same point about two-way vs. one-way has been made a dozen or more times by the editor in edit summaries about other turns, too, adding tedious length.
The rest of the text gives brief summary of importance of Signpost Corner, and it implicitly invites readers interested in this to click to the separate Signpost Corner article to read more about that if they like. And, there is no reason whatsoever to remove it, as far as I can tell. To the editor who has removed it repeatedly, could you please explain what on earth you are thinking?
I will restore this and all other descriptions for now, pending any discussion and consensus against them on this Talk page. And I will revise the wording slightly for the Signpost Corner entry and otherwise continue to develop this. So far this month, 100% of Talk page commenters (i.e., me) is for having the list-article include summary descriptions and function like other list-articles do. -- do ncr am 14:01, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Oppose. Deletion is opposed as there is no notability issues as the article is defined by a single neutral source. It is unnecessary to delete the article Laurel Bank. The article has been defined as a "geographical feature" or "natural" landmark as described in the article named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course by the same editor DOCRAM that has nominated the article. The reasons for deleting article under (wp:A7) are also the same reasons for supporting the inclusion of the article. As explained by other editors, there is a section of road and the public road traffic can be seen operating in both directions (left and right are not relevant). The editor DACRAM has confused the issue by using the term "flag markers" which is completely meaningless in British/English which is mainly used for writing the IOM TT/motor-cycle article area. 18:48, 13 June 2015 (UTC) 11thmilestone
expressed view that there is some issue about the roads being two-way (during the rest of the year, while the turns and roads are only significant for the encyclopedia during the racing). And that was repeated more, too.
cached page content -- Rocknrollmancer ( talk) 22:00, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
To identify and resolve issues specific to individual corners or other landmarks. Not a list of every corner, but only those where issues have been raised. Includes copy-pasting of criticism of individual corners' rows from elsewhere, in order to facilitate orderly resolution of all such complaints.
I noticed that Agljones elsewhere asserts error in the Laurel Bank row. The row was based on information in the Laurel Bank article, provided by Agljones.
Reviewing the Laurel Bank article, I see it has survived since 2008 with almost no content. It only includes:
Otherwise the article contains only boilerplate text with no info about Laurel Bank per se:
This series of bends at Laurel Bank was part of the Highland Course and Four Inch Course used for the Gordon Bennett Trial and Tourist Trophy automobile car races held in the Isle of Man between 1904 and 1922. Also, Laurel Bank was part of the St. John's Short Course used between 1907 and 1910 and part of the Snaefell Mountain Course used since 1911 for the Isle of Man TT Races and from 1923 the Manx Grand Prix."
The current article has no information beyond what can easily be covered in its row in this list-article.
Further, the current article fails to identify what "Laurel Bank" is, and fails to assert importance ( wp:A7). In fact it is a named corner of the road and a vantage point for spectators viewing Isle of Man TT races. For example, per this source, it as a "Fast Right-Hand Turn" 8.75 miles from the SMC startline.
Quick google search on "Laurel Bank Isle of Man" yields nice 2010 Youtube clip showing 3 racers going through right-turn bend (one being John McGuiness), and news of a non-fatal racing accident ( "William Dunlop airlifted to hospital after crashing during Isle of Man TT practice lap" and about same), but no source of coverage substantially about Laurel Bank.
References
Given this, I will PROD the article for deletion, linking to this section. Done Laurel Bank's table-row in "List of named corners" already provides its location, and I will revise it now
Done (to identify it as a righthand bend rather than a series of bends and to give the Manx translation). --
do
ncr
am
13:39, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
Just to put a nail in it, as a redlink Stonebreaker's Hut (with apostrophe) shows up as an item in editor Agljones' preferred list as if it is a notable place, listed at mileage 29.58, and as I came across and am just now delinking an old link to it from the Verandah article. (By the way note that the next item in Agljones' list was Verandah at mileage 29.80, while in fact Verandah is a stretch of road not a point location and presumably starts before the location of the stonebreakers hut.) There was an article at Stonebreakers Hut (no apostrophe) which got up to this last version as an article, which IMHO was properly eliminated simply by redirection to Verandah, Isle of Man. There appears to have been no AFD about it. The article has text block repeated in many corner articles, and practically zero corner-specific content ...that the Crabtree crash "nearby" happened is covered, and better, in the Verandah article. The fact that there is or was a small building or two is not of encyclopedic interest, and can be mentioned if necessary (why?) in the Verandah article. Or just addressed by a photo and caption in the Verandah article, without being mentioned in any main text. No importance at all asserted or suggested.
11th Milestone. No description of location and the map coordinates can be found on the main article. The photo shows the larger Garrow style 13th milestone on the A3 Castletown to Ramsey Road and not the 11th Milestone. [...] The main emphasis should be on the road and the description of the S-Bend as the 11th Milestone is used as a local term to describe the area rather than the not widely used term Drinkwaters Bend.
Ballacraine. No photograph and the map coordinates can be found on the main article. The map coordinates show a field to the north-west of Ballacraine. The description should be A1 Douglas to Peel Road and A3 Castletown to Ramsey Road. The road junction is situated at the east end of St.Johns village and not Ballacraine village. Description is incorrect as the road junction contains Ballacraine farm and the former Ballacraine Hotel on opposite sides of the road and the non-existing "Ballacraine Village" does not overlook the two features. The translation of Ballacraine as a Manx Gaelic place-name is not listed. Again, informal speech pattens rather than British-English and should read "private residence" rather than "private house." --Agljones
A sharp corner that is a popular vantage point, where spectators can be very close to the riders. [1] Fatal accidents in 1955 [2] and 1994. [3] occurred coming into and out of this corner.
References
Location and the map coordinates can be found on the main article. It is not appropriate to list the fatal accident as they do not define the corner. Other fatal accidents have not been listed. Originally called Crossacks Lane(?)--Agljones
In this diff with summary "road traffic on A18 operates in both directions (potential issues of notability with linked article", an editor removed the description for Signpost Corner. The description was:
Right turn corner. When a rider passed, observers at a signal station here would telephone ahead to an official in the TT Grandstand area, who would switch that rider's individual scoreboard light on. This warned pit-crew and race-officials that the rider has passed Signpost Corner and may shortly be pulling into the pit lane at the TT Grandstand to refuel. [1]
References
I understand -- fully, it is obvious -- that while the corner is a righthander for racers, during the rest of the year it is a public two-way road, and then it is a left turn for the traffic going in the opposite direction. I think we can expect encyclopedia readers to understand that a right turn going one way is a left turn going the other way. Or, does someone think that is not obvious????
This is a list article of turns in a race-course...none of these places have any significance worthy of encyclopedia coverage apart from their role in the racing circuit.
It is perfectly accurate to describe it as a right turn, in context of describing them as turns in the SMC circuit. The intro to the list-article states the race is on public roads. It could further be stated in the intro that the descriptions below refer to turns in race direction. I will add such a statement, and will be happy to see the wording refined there. However the same editor has repeatedly removed almost all introduction to the article, so I don't know whether that will be "allowed" if that editor is in charge of wikipedia.
The same point about two-way vs. one-way has been made a dozen or more times by the editor in edit summaries about other turns, too, adding tedious length.
The rest of the text gives brief summary of importance of Signpost Corner, and it implicitly invites readers interested in this to click to the separate Signpost Corner article to read more about that if they like. And, there is no reason whatsoever to remove it, as far as I can tell. To the editor who has removed it repeatedly, could you please explain what on earth you are thinking?
I will restore this and all other descriptions for now, pending any discussion and consensus against them on this Talk page. And I will revise the wording slightly for the Signpost Corner entry and otherwise continue to develop this. So far this month, 100% of Talk page commenters (i.e., me) is for having the list-article include summary descriptions and function like other list-articles do. -- do ncr am 14:01, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Oppose. Deletion is opposed as there is no notability issues as the article is defined by a single neutral source. It is unnecessary to delete the article Laurel Bank. The article has been defined as a "geographical feature" or "natural" landmark as described in the article named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course by the same editor DOCRAM that has nominated the article. The reasons for deleting article under (wp:A7) are also the same reasons for supporting the inclusion of the article. As explained by other editors, there is a section of road and the public road traffic can be seen operating in both directions (left and right are not relevant). The editor DACRAM has confused the issue by using the term "flag markers" which is completely meaningless in British/English which is mainly used for writing the IOM TT/motor-cycle article area. 18:48, 13 June 2015 (UTC) 11thmilestone
expressed view that there is some issue about the roads being two-way (during the rest of the year, while the turns and roads are only significant for the encyclopedia during the racing). And that was repeated more, too.
cached page content -- Rocknrollmancer ( talk) 22:00, 25 June 2015 (UTC)