![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I just added Kon Tiki and Ra II. They aren't ships, of course. I also added Fram, which is a ship, but isn't in the water (they build a building around it). I think all three belong here. Fram is in its own museum. Kon Tiki and Ra II are in the Thor Heyerdahl museum.
If there were a page on seafaring museums, or some such, maybe Thor's boats could be moved. Also candidates for that page. Museo Maritim (Maritime Museum) in Barcelona, Sjofahrtsmuseet (Seafaring museum) in Oslo, Peabody Essex Museum in Salem, Massachusetts. Ortolan88 20:26 Mar 18, 2003 (UTC)
Right. You can walk around Fram but not the other two. They're so fragile I can't imagine anybody walking on them when they were new, much less sailing the open sea on them. Ortolan88
I am new to Wikipedia and do not know if I should edit the HMS ''Rose'' entry on this list to change to her new designation ( HMS ''Surprise'') new rig (RN frigate of 1800's) and port ( San Diego). The Rose had a pretty good reputation and few may have heard of the Surprise as a replica. Can some kind of redirect be used for a ship without an article? I am trying to rectify this. Thank you. -- Displaced Raleighite 02:22, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
why are the PS Kingswear Castle - Chatham, paddle steamer and the MV Balmoral - Glasgow on this list? They're both both in active service for the Paddle Steamer Preservation Society / Waverley Excursions (see PS Waverley) = dave souza 21:06, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I think that these ships should be listed by countries to make them easier to find.
I agree! I do believe that the index should be by where the ship currently is so that people can visit them. If you want to find a certain ship you can always do that by coming in from the original record in Wikipedia Caveman1949 ( talk) 23:17, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
What about the Destroyer Escort USS Slater in Albany, NY. Maybe, it is in there somewhere; but it's not in alphabetical order. Hokeman 18:04, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Glad I could help, Mervyn. I'm going to visit the Slater on 1 May. Hokeman 01:26, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
There are afew lightship in museums, but I don't know them all. I added the Portsmouth and Chesapeake. They are listed as LV-101 and LV-116 rather than name because a lightship's name would change with station. Since they were not listed I assume that it is because they were never added, If they belong in another catigorey all together (which I don't think they should) please move them. Oktober 2006
Oppose merge of Ships preserved in museums with List of museum ships. The first is an article, while this is a list (see Museum ship). In any case, Ships preserved in museums discusses precisely what is excluded from this list - see discussion at top of page Viv Hamilton 20:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
North Korean sub: Hi, I was a little surprised to find no info or entry for a North Korean submarine that ran aground off the coast on the S.Korean city of Gangneung on Sept 17, 1996. It's now held in a museum-style setting at a place called 'Unification Park', south of Gangneung alongside a donated US warship. I took photos of the sub and ship here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sunnybreaks/1440002695/
The 2004 Lonely Planet book says, "The sub weighs 325 tonnes, is 35m long and had a top speed of 13kms an hour."
I'm assuming that NK never owned up to it being there, so it would've been difficult to get a name for it, but I'm curious if anybody can pick the make of it.
_________ —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Yak sox (
talk •
contribs) 04:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for info -- have added two -- mervyn 11:41, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi all, just wanted to comment that I'm currently working in the (new) WikiArticles for 2 argentinian museum (tall) ships listed here: the frigate ARA Presidente Sarmiento and the corvette ARA Uruguay. Hopefully will have them ready by the end of this week (at least an initial version). Regards, DPdH ( talk) 07:05, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I made the article for the Spirit of Australia boat that holds the world record for the fastest speed on water. It's on display at the Australian National Maritime Museum. I'm not sure if it belongs on this list, but I figured I would suggest it be put up here instead of changing the list. Billcheese1 ( talk) 21:05, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
What do we mean by "nationality", is it original or current? A couple of examples: Duchesse Anne is indeed a French ship as shown but it was originally, and for most of its working life until 1945, German. On the other hand af Chapman has in fact been Swedish since 1915 but we show this with its original (British) nationality. Consistency can be a little difficult to achieve, but a clearer definition here might help. Bagunceiro ( talk) 14:58, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
ok but to is preserved:
Ref in List of submarines in the Spanish Navy
Takashi Kurita ~
Hablame compañero 16:42, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
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ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link)Sorry... short english here, i have got the book, and is in it...; you can see photograpy on line in
Takashi Kurita ~
Hablame compañero 07:48, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
@ Godsfriendchuck: Looking at your edit and thinking about it, I can see a justification for removing that ship from this list, as it's not "open to the public" in usual sense, but an edit comment to that effect would definitely have been handy. May I encourage you to write edit comments? Also, are you going to remove its article from the "museum ship" category? I'd think the two should be consistent. 71.41.210.146 ( talk) 18:32, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
'From' column means ship's country of origin? Most of ships in Estonia are not estonian, right? Inq-16 ( talk) 02:14, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
I was very surprised to not see "Old Ironsides" listed here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Parmadil ( talk • contribs) 15:33, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
What about these? /info/en/?search=Northwest_Seaport
And I know there's a cod fisher ship in Seattle, too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Parmadil ( talk • contribs) 15:41, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Knowledgekid87: Quite a few removals in the last 10 days, mostly without edit summaries. What are your intentions? Where are the deleted entries going? Regards, Ariconte ( talk) 00:07, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
1 Civilian ships 2 Current museum ships 3 See also 4 References 5 External links
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
{{I don't understand the reorganization that has been going on, and I don't agree that redundancy across lists is all bad. To try to foster some discussion, let's discuss a few questions. This can be about division into separate tables or separate articles, and also about relevant columns/variables to include in the tables, and about ordering. -- Doncram ( talk) 20:01, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
An editor seems to be creating two tables, one for civilian and one for military. Without starting by creating a sortable column identifying these categories. Maybe smaller categories would make sense, e.g. divide commercial by freighters vs. tugs vs. ocean liners With intention to split the world-wide article into two, by this division, later? I tend to think readers would be more interested in seeing the museum ships of one country all together. And civilian vs. military is not completely clean: how exactly is that to be defined?
What about Nash (tugboat), for example, a once-U.S. Army ship that is the principle ship asset of the H. Lee White Marine Museum in Oswego, New York. It served the U.S. Army at D-Day, but served most of its life in civilian use. Tug Ludington in Kewaunee, Wisconsin is similar. I see that there is a List of museum ships of the United States military which omits these (because they are not U.S. Navy or Coast Guard ships?). K87, are you planning to make a List of non-military museum ships in the United States, or similar? I note we have List of museums in the United States which splits out to lists of museums in each state, not to lists of military vs. civilian museums. -- Doncram ( talk) 20:01, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
I think yes, division into tables or into separate subarticles by nation or region would work, with the location used being the main/home location of the ship or its associated museum buildings if any. If division of this list-article is required by its size, this is the way to go I think. -- Doncram ( talk) 20:01, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
I am not sure, but this might be better than civilian vs. military. -- Doncram ( talk) 20:01, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
I assume that all museum ships which are Wikipedia-notable, as evidenced by their having an article, should be included. This includes current museum ships and former ones, i.e. ships which served as museums and later were demolished, and ships of museums that still exist but were divested from any museum. Any museum ships that have articles that have been deleted should be returned, right? -- Doncram ( talk) 20:35, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Also any known museum ship without an article, but whose existence and importance are supported by included references, should be kept or added as a redlink. -- Doncram ( talk) 20:35, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
I have reverted everything back to the way it was, hopefully a consensus can be made regarding the article in the future. I apologize for the disruption. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 20:38, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
}}
Hey, I am sure there are issues and there could be improvements in the existing system of list-articles of museum ships. This main list, List of museum ships does seem pretty huge. (How many are listed?) A comprehensive list should maybe include all historic ships, that could be boarded by visitors, that are themselves museums or are included at museums, that are notable and that are not replicas (covered separately). There was previous discussion above about a "List of ships at museums" as opposed to "List of museum ships" which seems to have ended by the first being kept as a category for individual articles, Category:Ships preserved in museums, but dropped as a list-article topic. I think, knock on wood, that the museum ship article defines the term well enough. And I also think any museum ship is probably wikipedia-notable, like all public museums are (as i asserted in my contributions to essay wp:ITSAMUSEUM).
Maybe it is helpful to review what is the current list-article system, and what categories are meaningful (which could be used to divide out separate lists, or to be covered as columns in tables, and which can be used for actual categories in individual museum ship articles). I hope this might be helpful. I must say that it seems easy to question or criticize maybe, like I was doing elsewhere, but it seems hard to think for real. :( -- Doncram ( talk) 22:41, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
(please add to this if helpful)
(please add to this if helpful)
Museum ships:
Lists of ships that include non-museum and museum ships but may identify which ones are museums:
(please add to this if helpful)
(please insert sections above about new topics, or make general comments here?) I am not sure what to say about overlap of List of oldest surviving ships vs. List of museum ships. -- Doncram ( talk) 22:41, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Does the "from" column indicate where the ship was built, or who it was built for? I only ask because the Japanese battleship Mikasa is listed as being "from" Japan, but it was actually built at Barrow-in-Furness in the UK. Alansplodge ( talk) 17:15, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
Although the RMS Queen Mary is both a museum ship and a hotel ship, aren’t there other ships we should add to the list that are either hotel ships or museum ships or both? Ubersonic Gaming ( talk) 23:02, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
We could add Queen Elizabeth 2, MV Doulos Phos, SS Rotterdam, and Hikawa Maru if they aren’t already on the list. Implacable18 ( talk) 00:56, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
should we add photos? Ubersonic Gaming ( talk) 23:53, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
I feel like some ships are eventually going to be turned into museums but the Saratov icebreaker for example is in the process of being raised from the bottom of the Volga river and will be a museum later on. Ubersonic Gaming ( talk) 17:16, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
On another note, (maybe this should be in a new section), we also have the article List of museum ships of the United States military, that I belive creates a lot of duplication with this page. Should we co consider removing the US military vessels from this list that are also on that list? Or go the other way and blank and redirect that page here? Or just leave everything as is? Or something else? Thoughts...? - wolf 10:03, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
It would be useful to add a data-sort-value to the names column, so that it would sort on actual name, ignoring USS, HMS, etc. And also to put entries in proper alphabetical order, it's pretty random at the moment; in fact, this would make the sort by name function less necessary. I expect there are tools to help with this, but it's not something I'm set up to do. Best wishes, Pol098 ( talk) 19:19, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
I have started work on sorting by name, so that "USS Iowa" will sort as "Iowa", not "USS". What I have done so far is add |data-sort-value=
before each ship name entry. A suitable sort key has to be added to each entry; there are about 900, so this will be a long, collaborative effort (or won't get done). What needs to be done is to add an appropriate name for sorting to each entry, like |data-sort-value=Iowa
. Many names are obvious, others less so: is "H F Bailey" H or B? "James Craig" J or C? "Admiral Nevelskoi" A or N? That could be discussed here. I will do a few and hope that others continue. This will mean that clicking on the sort arrows for the name column will sort according to the data-sort-value, not the displayed name.
It is still necessary to sort the entries so that they are properly alphabetical, so that they display sensibly before clicking the arrow. Lots of work.
Best wishes, Pol098 ( talk) 20:16, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
|data-sort-value=
parameters than to manually sort by name, as there were lots of out-of-sequence entries. Actually entering all the names is a bigger job, but probably easier than manually sorting the default order by moving rows (unless there are table tools that I don't know about). Go to an entry, select the desired name, drag and ctrl-drop after the "=". I also admit that I did this partly an exercise in how to sort a table by a non-displayed key.@ Pol098: To answer your question above, about alphabetizing names by first or last, I believe it's by the very first letter of the name as whole that is used, so if there is a given name, that's the one to go by, if there is a preceding rank or other honorific, then that it used, so;
This is how the US Navy does it, according to the
Naval Vessel Register (
www.nvr.navy.mil/).
The Australian Navy does it the same way as the US Navy (
https://www.navy.gov.au/).
As for the Royal Navy, there doesn't seem to any rhyme or reason to how they list their ships on their website (
https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/), they aren't listed alphabetically, by hull number or date of commissioning.
Hope this helps - wolf 00:28, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
This is per WP:SIZE as this list is huge, reads like a wall of text, and is potentially slow to load on some devices. Here is what we already have:
My suggestion is to create more articles like these so we can narrow down the scope and make the lists more accessible. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 21:17, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Would the following [4] ships qualify as a museum or memorial ship?-- Ubersonic Gaming ( talk) 03:49, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
Also, would Ancerville in Shenzen, China, qualify? It is "in stationary use as a hotel and event space" per this "itinerary", with photos. --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 18:27, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
Is it okay if I drop the (arbitrary) division of the list-table into sections "A to C", "D to G", etc., so that it can be sorted? It's just a bother, IMO, as I have several times now needed to sort, so I could see same-location items together. If there are no objections, I will do that, making it just one big table for now. --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 23:07, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
Hidden below this message is a list of "former" museum ships. The reason why I removed them is because I am wondering if these really should be included or if they go against WP:DIRECTORY. I mean... we aren't including a list of ships that used to formerly be breakwaters that don't exist anymore? - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 19:58, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
former ships
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This section is for ships that were at one point preserved, but have since been scrapped, sunk, removed from display, or are otherwise no longer maintained as museum ships.
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As there seems to be a test of wills below instead of a discussion, perhaps the creation of List of former museum ships from the content above will alleviate some of the angst. Toddst1 ( talk) 22:54, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
As a separate matter, but also supporting division of this list by location, it seems useful to include coordinates locations of all items. Seeing all places on the OSM linked map will clarify how to divide the list into separate tables possibly on separate pages (by continent, or group N and S America together, or whatever). But it is simply good to have coordinates included in the current alphabetical list so readers can consult the linked map.
This isn't urgent nor is it hard to do. In one window, go to each article and collect coordinates from them, then record them into an editing window on this article. I suggest, and started with, use of decimal coordinates with precision to 5 digits after the decimal point, mainly because that is the degree of precision accepted by a certain cadre of editors that follow me personally (it seems like that to me! but maybe/probably somehow they are monitoring all usages of template {{ coord}} and enforcing that). Note the display of coordinates in Degreed-Minutes-Seconds (DMS) vs. decimal formats can be set or changed at the article level (and/or in individual editors' user preferences). Note that numerous ship articles do not have coordinates in them, I suggest just skipping those for the moment. Who is willing to do this for a given alphabetical section?
I trust that starting this will be understood as purely helpful and not controversial, but by all means discuss any possible concerns. Doncram ( talk, contribs) 21:02, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
Should this distinction be made, or should Ships preserved in museums be merged into this list?
Ships preserved in museums states that these are "distinct from museum ships, which are ships where visitors can go aboard to see the ship." However, at least one there, Fram (ship), allows visitors onto and into it.
Also, this List of museum ships includes some, perhaps many, "ships preserved in museums" that one cannot go onto, including Kingston II up on a stand at Mystic Seaport. --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 05:13, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
When click on OSM map linked from article and zeroing in, I think one can see that some coordinates are implausible, putting a museum ship out in the middle of harbor, say. For several ships at Mystic Seaport, the coordinates given in their articles put them together exactly at 41°21′45″N 71°57′55″W / 41.36250°N 71.96528°W, which is obviously wrong, when you zoom in. The coordinates in their articles, and then the coords here, should be refined to point exactly at the actual ships. Using 5 decimals of precision gets to within something like 2 metres (6 ft 7 in), approximately, i think, for places at Mystic Seaport's latitude.
It may take a while to review all locations and confirm/refine coordinates. --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 22:15, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
How does display of coordinates in the "Museum/location" column look? The displays could be shrunk in size, from showing default size (e.g. 41°21′45″N 71°57′55″W / 41.36250°N 71.96528°W) to showing small size (e.g. 41°21′45″N 71°57′55″W / 41.36250°N 71.96528°W), instead, by use of <small></small> The smaller size is used in all the list-articles covering the 90,000 or so NRHP places, actually.
Hmm, by accident in editing here just now, i think i see how to make things even smaller...e.g. 41°21′45″N 71°57′55″W / 41.36250°N 71.96528°W, by use of <small><small></small></small> I did not know how to do that before! --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 22:15, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
I mentioned above that "origin" needs definition. If the arrangement of basic lists is to default to "country etc of museum location", then place/country of origin (construction) is important, though I am not articularly enthusiastic on the presence of flaglets, and would head it "Where built". The fifth column does contain mainly the ID of the museum, though some entries mark the significance of the ship: eg "Shetland bus", "Chaco War". These are helpful to the reader and I favour a separate column for these (perhaps "Significance" or similar) - to make space, I suggest, if all loacations are indeed to consist of two lines, other fields be allowed to run over also where unavoidable (and the heading for "Year launched" also be given two lines to narrow the column. Davidships ( talk) 01:43, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I just added Kon Tiki and Ra II. They aren't ships, of course. I also added Fram, which is a ship, but isn't in the water (they build a building around it). I think all three belong here. Fram is in its own museum. Kon Tiki and Ra II are in the Thor Heyerdahl museum.
If there were a page on seafaring museums, or some such, maybe Thor's boats could be moved. Also candidates for that page. Museo Maritim (Maritime Museum) in Barcelona, Sjofahrtsmuseet (Seafaring museum) in Oslo, Peabody Essex Museum in Salem, Massachusetts. Ortolan88 20:26 Mar 18, 2003 (UTC)
Right. You can walk around Fram but not the other two. They're so fragile I can't imagine anybody walking on them when they were new, much less sailing the open sea on them. Ortolan88
I am new to Wikipedia and do not know if I should edit the HMS ''Rose'' entry on this list to change to her new designation ( HMS ''Surprise'') new rig (RN frigate of 1800's) and port ( San Diego). The Rose had a pretty good reputation and few may have heard of the Surprise as a replica. Can some kind of redirect be used for a ship without an article? I am trying to rectify this. Thank you. -- Displaced Raleighite 02:22, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
why are the PS Kingswear Castle - Chatham, paddle steamer and the MV Balmoral - Glasgow on this list? They're both both in active service for the Paddle Steamer Preservation Society / Waverley Excursions (see PS Waverley) = dave souza 21:06, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I think that these ships should be listed by countries to make them easier to find.
I agree! I do believe that the index should be by where the ship currently is so that people can visit them. If you want to find a certain ship you can always do that by coming in from the original record in Wikipedia Caveman1949 ( talk) 23:17, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
What about the Destroyer Escort USS Slater in Albany, NY. Maybe, it is in there somewhere; but it's not in alphabetical order. Hokeman 18:04, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Glad I could help, Mervyn. I'm going to visit the Slater on 1 May. Hokeman 01:26, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
There are afew lightship in museums, but I don't know them all. I added the Portsmouth and Chesapeake. They are listed as LV-101 and LV-116 rather than name because a lightship's name would change with station. Since they were not listed I assume that it is because they were never added, If they belong in another catigorey all together (which I don't think they should) please move them. Oktober 2006
Oppose merge of Ships preserved in museums with List of museum ships. The first is an article, while this is a list (see Museum ship). In any case, Ships preserved in museums discusses precisely what is excluded from this list - see discussion at top of page Viv Hamilton 20:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
North Korean sub: Hi, I was a little surprised to find no info or entry for a North Korean submarine that ran aground off the coast on the S.Korean city of Gangneung on Sept 17, 1996. It's now held in a museum-style setting at a place called 'Unification Park', south of Gangneung alongside a donated US warship. I took photos of the sub and ship here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sunnybreaks/1440002695/
The 2004 Lonely Planet book says, "The sub weighs 325 tonnes, is 35m long and had a top speed of 13kms an hour."
I'm assuming that NK never owned up to it being there, so it would've been difficult to get a name for it, but I'm curious if anybody can pick the make of it.
_________ —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Yak sox (
talk •
contribs) 04:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for info -- have added two -- mervyn 11:41, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi all, just wanted to comment that I'm currently working in the (new) WikiArticles for 2 argentinian museum (tall) ships listed here: the frigate ARA Presidente Sarmiento and the corvette ARA Uruguay. Hopefully will have them ready by the end of this week (at least an initial version). Regards, DPdH ( talk) 07:05, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I made the article for the Spirit of Australia boat that holds the world record for the fastest speed on water. It's on display at the Australian National Maritime Museum. I'm not sure if it belongs on this list, but I figured I would suggest it be put up here instead of changing the list. Billcheese1 ( talk) 21:05, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
What do we mean by "nationality", is it original or current? A couple of examples: Duchesse Anne is indeed a French ship as shown but it was originally, and for most of its working life until 1945, German. On the other hand af Chapman has in fact been Swedish since 1915 but we show this with its original (British) nationality. Consistency can be a little difficult to achieve, but a clearer definition here might help. Bagunceiro ( talk) 14:58, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
ok but to is preserved:
Ref in List of submarines in the Spanish Navy
Takashi Kurita ~
Hablame compañero 16:42, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |coauthor=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link)Sorry... short english here, i have got the book, and is in it...; you can see photograpy on line in
Takashi Kurita ~
Hablame compañero 07:48, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
@ Godsfriendchuck: Looking at your edit and thinking about it, I can see a justification for removing that ship from this list, as it's not "open to the public" in usual sense, but an edit comment to that effect would definitely have been handy. May I encourage you to write edit comments? Also, are you going to remove its article from the "museum ship" category? I'd think the two should be consistent. 71.41.210.146 ( talk) 18:32, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
'From' column means ship's country of origin? Most of ships in Estonia are not estonian, right? Inq-16 ( talk) 02:14, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
I was very surprised to not see "Old Ironsides" listed here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Parmadil ( talk • contribs) 15:33, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
What about these? /info/en/?search=Northwest_Seaport
And I know there's a cod fisher ship in Seattle, too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Parmadil ( talk • contribs) 15:41, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Knowledgekid87: Quite a few removals in the last 10 days, mostly without edit summaries. What are your intentions? Where are the deleted entries going? Regards, Ariconte ( talk) 00:07, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
1 Civilian ships 2 Current museum ships 3 See also 4 References 5 External links
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
{{I don't understand the reorganization that has been going on, and I don't agree that redundancy across lists is all bad. To try to foster some discussion, let's discuss a few questions. This can be about division into separate tables or separate articles, and also about relevant columns/variables to include in the tables, and about ordering. -- Doncram ( talk) 20:01, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
An editor seems to be creating two tables, one for civilian and one for military. Without starting by creating a sortable column identifying these categories. Maybe smaller categories would make sense, e.g. divide commercial by freighters vs. tugs vs. ocean liners With intention to split the world-wide article into two, by this division, later? I tend to think readers would be more interested in seeing the museum ships of one country all together. And civilian vs. military is not completely clean: how exactly is that to be defined?
What about Nash (tugboat), for example, a once-U.S. Army ship that is the principle ship asset of the H. Lee White Marine Museum in Oswego, New York. It served the U.S. Army at D-Day, but served most of its life in civilian use. Tug Ludington in Kewaunee, Wisconsin is similar. I see that there is a List of museum ships of the United States military which omits these (because they are not U.S. Navy or Coast Guard ships?). K87, are you planning to make a List of non-military museum ships in the United States, or similar? I note we have List of museums in the United States which splits out to lists of museums in each state, not to lists of military vs. civilian museums. -- Doncram ( talk) 20:01, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
I think yes, division into tables or into separate subarticles by nation or region would work, with the location used being the main/home location of the ship or its associated museum buildings if any. If division of this list-article is required by its size, this is the way to go I think. -- Doncram ( talk) 20:01, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
I am not sure, but this might be better than civilian vs. military. -- Doncram ( talk) 20:01, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
I assume that all museum ships which are Wikipedia-notable, as evidenced by their having an article, should be included. This includes current museum ships and former ones, i.e. ships which served as museums and later were demolished, and ships of museums that still exist but were divested from any museum. Any museum ships that have articles that have been deleted should be returned, right? -- Doncram ( talk) 20:35, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Also any known museum ship without an article, but whose existence and importance are supported by included references, should be kept or added as a redlink. -- Doncram ( talk) 20:35, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
I have reverted everything back to the way it was, hopefully a consensus can be made regarding the article in the future. I apologize for the disruption. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 20:38, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
}}
Hey, I am sure there are issues and there could be improvements in the existing system of list-articles of museum ships. This main list, List of museum ships does seem pretty huge. (How many are listed?) A comprehensive list should maybe include all historic ships, that could be boarded by visitors, that are themselves museums or are included at museums, that are notable and that are not replicas (covered separately). There was previous discussion above about a "List of ships at museums" as opposed to "List of museum ships" which seems to have ended by the first being kept as a category for individual articles, Category:Ships preserved in museums, but dropped as a list-article topic. I think, knock on wood, that the museum ship article defines the term well enough. And I also think any museum ship is probably wikipedia-notable, like all public museums are (as i asserted in my contributions to essay wp:ITSAMUSEUM).
Maybe it is helpful to review what is the current list-article system, and what categories are meaningful (which could be used to divide out separate lists, or to be covered as columns in tables, and which can be used for actual categories in individual museum ship articles). I hope this might be helpful. I must say that it seems easy to question or criticize maybe, like I was doing elsewhere, but it seems hard to think for real. :( -- Doncram ( talk) 22:41, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
(please add to this if helpful)
(please add to this if helpful)
Museum ships:
Lists of ships that include non-museum and museum ships but may identify which ones are museums:
(please add to this if helpful)
(please insert sections above about new topics, or make general comments here?) I am not sure what to say about overlap of List of oldest surviving ships vs. List of museum ships. -- Doncram ( talk) 22:41, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Does the "from" column indicate where the ship was built, or who it was built for? I only ask because the Japanese battleship Mikasa is listed as being "from" Japan, but it was actually built at Barrow-in-Furness in the UK. Alansplodge ( talk) 17:15, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
Although the RMS Queen Mary is both a museum ship and a hotel ship, aren’t there other ships we should add to the list that are either hotel ships or museum ships or both? Ubersonic Gaming ( talk) 23:02, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
We could add Queen Elizabeth 2, MV Doulos Phos, SS Rotterdam, and Hikawa Maru if they aren’t already on the list. Implacable18 ( talk) 00:56, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
should we add photos? Ubersonic Gaming ( talk) 23:53, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
I feel like some ships are eventually going to be turned into museums but the Saratov icebreaker for example is in the process of being raised from the bottom of the Volga river and will be a museum later on. Ubersonic Gaming ( talk) 17:16, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
On another note, (maybe this should be in a new section), we also have the article List of museum ships of the United States military, that I belive creates a lot of duplication with this page. Should we co consider removing the US military vessels from this list that are also on that list? Or go the other way and blank and redirect that page here? Or just leave everything as is? Or something else? Thoughts...? - wolf 10:03, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
It would be useful to add a data-sort-value to the names column, so that it would sort on actual name, ignoring USS, HMS, etc. And also to put entries in proper alphabetical order, it's pretty random at the moment; in fact, this would make the sort by name function less necessary. I expect there are tools to help with this, but it's not something I'm set up to do. Best wishes, Pol098 ( talk) 19:19, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
I have started work on sorting by name, so that "USS Iowa" will sort as "Iowa", not "USS". What I have done so far is add |data-sort-value=
before each ship name entry. A suitable sort key has to be added to each entry; there are about 900, so this will be a long, collaborative effort (or won't get done). What needs to be done is to add an appropriate name for sorting to each entry, like |data-sort-value=Iowa
. Many names are obvious, others less so: is "H F Bailey" H or B? "James Craig" J or C? "Admiral Nevelskoi" A or N? That could be discussed here. I will do a few and hope that others continue. This will mean that clicking on the sort arrows for the name column will sort according to the data-sort-value, not the displayed name.
It is still necessary to sort the entries so that they are properly alphabetical, so that they display sensibly before clicking the arrow. Lots of work.
Best wishes, Pol098 ( talk) 20:16, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
|data-sort-value=
parameters than to manually sort by name, as there were lots of out-of-sequence entries. Actually entering all the names is a bigger job, but probably easier than manually sorting the default order by moving rows (unless there are table tools that I don't know about). Go to an entry, select the desired name, drag and ctrl-drop after the "=". I also admit that I did this partly an exercise in how to sort a table by a non-displayed key.@ Pol098: To answer your question above, about alphabetizing names by first or last, I believe it's by the very first letter of the name as whole that is used, so if there is a given name, that's the one to go by, if there is a preceding rank or other honorific, then that it used, so;
This is how the US Navy does it, according to the
Naval Vessel Register (
www.nvr.navy.mil/).
The Australian Navy does it the same way as the US Navy (
https://www.navy.gov.au/).
As for the Royal Navy, there doesn't seem to any rhyme or reason to how they list their ships on their website (
https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/), they aren't listed alphabetically, by hull number or date of commissioning.
Hope this helps - wolf 00:28, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
This is per WP:SIZE as this list is huge, reads like a wall of text, and is potentially slow to load on some devices. Here is what we already have:
My suggestion is to create more articles like these so we can narrow down the scope and make the lists more accessible. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 21:17, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Would the following [4] ships qualify as a museum or memorial ship?-- Ubersonic Gaming ( talk) 03:49, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
Also, would Ancerville in Shenzen, China, qualify? It is "in stationary use as a hotel and event space" per this "itinerary", with photos. --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 18:27, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
Is it okay if I drop the (arbitrary) division of the list-table into sections "A to C", "D to G", etc., so that it can be sorted? It's just a bother, IMO, as I have several times now needed to sort, so I could see same-location items together. If there are no objections, I will do that, making it just one big table for now. --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 23:07, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
Hidden below this message is a list of "former" museum ships. The reason why I removed them is because I am wondering if these really should be included or if they go against WP:DIRECTORY. I mean... we aren't including a list of ships that used to formerly be breakwaters that don't exist anymore? - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 19:58, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
former ships
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This section is for ships that were at one point preserved, but have since been scrapped, sunk, removed from display, or are otherwise no longer maintained as museum ships.
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As there seems to be a test of wills below instead of a discussion, perhaps the creation of List of former museum ships from the content above will alleviate some of the angst. Toddst1 ( talk) 22:54, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
As a separate matter, but also supporting division of this list by location, it seems useful to include coordinates locations of all items. Seeing all places on the OSM linked map will clarify how to divide the list into separate tables possibly on separate pages (by continent, or group N and S America together, or whatever). But it is simply good to have coordinates included in the current alphabetical list so readers can consult the linked map.
This isn't urgent nor is it hard to do. In one window, go to each article and collect coordinates from them, then record them into an editing window on this article. I suggest, and started with, use of decimal coordinates with precision to 5 digits after the decimal point, mainly because that is the degree of precision accepted by a certain cadre of editors that follow me personally (it seems like that to me! but maybe/probably somehow they are monitoring all usages of template {{ coord}} and enforcing that). Note the display of coordinates in Degreed-Minutes-Seconds (DMS) vs. decimal formats can be set or changed at the article level (and/or in individual editors' user preferences). Note that numerous ship articles do not have coordinates in them, I suggest just skipping those for the moment. Who is willing to do this for a given alphabetical section?
I trust that starting this will be understood as purely helpful and not controversial, but by all means discuss any possible concerns. Doncram ( talk, contribs) 21:02, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
Should this distinction be made, or should Ships preserved in museums be merged into this list?
Ships preserved in museums states that these are "distinct from museum ships, which are ships where visitors can go aboard to see the ship." However, at least one there, Fram (ship), allows visitors onto and into it.
Also, this List of museum ships includes some, perhaps many, "ships preserved in museums" that one cannot go onto, including Kingston II up on a stand at Mystic Seaport. --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 05:13, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
When click on OSM map linked from article and zeroing in, I think one can see that some coordinates are implausible, putting a museum ship out in the middle of harbor, say. For several ships at Mystic Seaport, the coordinates given in their articles put them together exactly at 41°21′45″N 71°57′55″W / 41.36250°N 71.96528°W, which is obviously wrong, when you zoom in. The coordinates in their articles, and then the coords here, should be refined to point exactly at the actual ships. Using 5 decimals of precision gets to within something like 2 metres (6 ft 7 in), approximately, i think, for places at Mystic Seaport's latitude.
It may take a while to review all locations and confirm/refine coordinates. --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 22:15, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
How does display of coordinates in the "Museum/location" column look? The displays could be shrunk in size, from showing default size (e.g. 41°21′45″N 71°57′55″W / 41.36250°N 71.96528°W) to showing small size (e.g. 41°21′45″N 71°57′55″W / 41.36250°N 71.96528°W), instead, by use of <small></small> The smaller size is used in all the list-articles covering the 90,000 or so NRHP places, actually.
Hmm, by accident in editing here just now, i think i see how to make things even smaller...e.g. 41°21′45″N 71°57′55″W / 41.36250°N 71.96528°W, by use of <small><small></small></small> I did not know how to do that before! --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 22:15, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
I mentioned above that "origin" needs definition. If the arrangement of basic lists is to default to "country etc of museum location", then place/country of origin (construction) is important, though I am not articularly enthusiastic on the presence of flaglets, and would head it "Where built". The fifth column does contain mainly the ID of the museum, though some entries mark the significance of the ship: eg "Shetland bus", "Chaco War". These are helpful to the reader and I favour a separate column for these (perhaps "Significance" or similar) - to make space, I suggest, if all loacations are indeed to consist of two lines, other fields be allowed to run over also where unavoidable (and the heading for "Year launched" also be given two lines to narrow the column. Davidships ( talk) 01:43, 5 January 2023 (UTC)