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I believe the Hamburg S-Bahn should be counted as a metro, with the same line of argument as the Berlin S-Bahn. 113.2 km of the network are separated from other rail services, 31.9 km are operated together with regional and cargo traffic. About 12.5 km of the network lie within tunnels, 7.9 km are single-track routes. The 31.9km - operated together with regional traffic/cargo traffic - are actually an intermediate step in the conversion of this trunk from Regional train "R-line" to S-Bahn. This trunk to Stade is run by special trains, which have a dual electrical system, which can be switched from the 1200V DC third rail to 15KV AC overhead catenary outside the city. Previously these R-Lines would end at the endpoint of the "true" S-Bahn system and the passengers would have to change trains, now they can just pull in the pantographs and switch to DC and continue inside the city. Likewise, there are AKN-trains which can switch from Diesel-electric to third rail and run on the S-Bahn System inside the city, and these are also recent additions to make the AKN more compatible. Except these recent additions to spare passengers of R-trains/AKN the switch, the classical S-Bahn is fully separate from the regional network. It is expected, that these branches will later convert to "full" S-Bahn lines. This is how the system was historically growing. We can say that in the status of ca year 2000 or so the S-Bahn (except these "compatibility" additions, which are just a bridge solution), that means the 113km of fully separated lines, is a real metro. The daily use of this metro for Hamburg traffic is the same as with the U-Bahn, sharing stations with the U-Bahn, but not tracks, because they have different DC-voltages and third rail systems etc., but this is unnoticable to the passengers, they just go to the next platform, like when switching from one U-Bahn line to the other. Trust me I'm from Hamburg. 70.137.138.216 ( talk) 13:04, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
For a diagram showing how U-Bahn, S-Bahn, A-Bahn, R-(regional) trains are connected and related see following diagram
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Bahnlinien_im_HVV.png
of the Hamburg transit authority. You can see there e.g. how the branch of former R-bahn from Neugraben to Stade has been converted to S-Bahn, and how the A-Bahn AKN has been extended into the S-Bahn network to run to Main Station without switching trains by dual system. 70.137.138.216 ( talk) 20:50, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
I have read these discussions. They seem to assume that the trunk to Suelldorf is running at level like a lightrail, which is not the case, trust me. Also the "rule" that low frequency trunks make the whole system into a non-metro, non-heavy-rail would exclude Berlin S-Bahn, and even New York subway, which is undisputed as a metro. This "rule" also ignores how metro systems have been historically growing in many places, namely by successive additions of peripheral lines from regional /commuter systems, followed by conversion to full metro. (Including even conversion from steam/diesel to third rail rolling stock. This is completely normal for historically growing systems) This has been the case in London, Berlin, Hamburg and many others. It is the natural way of growing a system in a growing metropolitan area, when the growing transport needs in the periphery ask for the conversion of lines to higher capacity. The usual targets of such conversion are stubs of intercity lines, regional train lines and commuter train lines, which then get converted to third rail and thereby eliminate the need for switching trains on the way into the city. The discussion also ignores, how integrated the Hamburg S-Bahn system is with the U-Bahn, really augmenting the U-Bahn line network and even sharing many stations with it. I would prefer if the editors would make themselves more acquainted with the matter of historical growth before making rules. Please before reverting look at the case of Berlin S-Bahn, which is much more spread out into the surrounding area and which entirely grew from successive conversion of stubs of intercity train lines, which got converted from steam to third rail once the traffic needs made this useful. 70.137.152.219 ( talk) 21:41, 7 June 2011 (UTC) I admit that there are systems in the world which have not been growing, but have been set up as systems out of the retort. Many new smaller systems are like that. But the "classical" systems like London, New York, Berlin and Hamburg, in fact among the oldest systems (1908, 1912 etc.) have been growing "organically" along the lines of already existing dense infrastructure, which is typical for the highly populated and industrialized old metropolitan areas, by integrating existing multiple systems (3 separate systems in New York, more in London) and successively adding with growing traffic needs. This is clearly not the case if you build a traffic system on the green lawn or somewhere in the jungle. Besides the NYC subway has at grade crossings too. So this is a completely useless criterion. 70.137.152.219 ( talk) 22:15, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Exactly correct, that was the one I thought about.(closed '73 according to Wiki ref from NYT) But it was a metro then, that is undisputed. So the criterion is faulty. The Berlin S-Bahn also has grade crossings. 70.137.150.170 ( talk) 19:57, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
True, but last they do it in some peripheral trunks with low train frequency , which are present in e.g. NYC. Berlin, London, Hamburg. And the removal of the last grade crossing somewhere close the end of a trunk line doesn't suddenly turn the whole system from non-metro into metro. That is obvious nonsense and nitpicking. A more useful criterion is really if the bulk of the system has typical metro characteristics. I believe this is dictated by the way metro systems are typically historically growing, see above. And (grin) what are 40-50 years in the history of so old systems, which date back to 1890 or 1910? Young people are sometimes really too modernistic, everything has to be invented new with every generation. Everything the old daddies once have built, their criteria, their terminolgy, that all is now outdated trash. We are young... You don't want to claim that the NYC metro of 1970 wouldn't be a metro with today's criteria, right? I would think that goes too far. 70.137.150.170 ( talk) 21:01, 8 June 2011 (UTC) The same argument, only the other way around, applies to Hamburg S-Bahn. You don't want to claim, that the recent addition of a trunk of regional train line at the end of the then existing metro system, for future extension of the metro system, suddenly turns the existing metro system into a non-metro? This is the same kind of nonsense and nitpicking. In fact the metro system stays what it was, but it grows in the periphery with the growing needs of the growing metropolitan area. 70.137.150.170 ( talk) 21:09, 8 June 2011 (UTC) Besides, your modern rail systems, you are likely thinking about, are in today's world mostly Chinese systems, which have been planned from scratch, almost on a green lawn or in the jungle, to serve these huge developing cities and metroplexes, which are almost growing like an explosion out of a few small industrial cities within decades. That is a different case and not typical for the slowly developing age old metropolitan areas/ metroplexes of the old industrial world. We cannot IMO set this as a standard how a real metro has to look like in the world, that is too narrow as a definition. 70.137.150.170 ( talk) 21:19, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
I too tend to be fairly inclusionist for this list (such as arguing for the Staten Island Railway above), and overly strict interpretation of the considerations is not a good idea. That said, I've also argued against some additions before. Here I'd be willing to let it stand, but I would like more info. Does the shared trackage constitute a significant portion of the system? Is it really shared trackage (i.e., the trains run on the exact same rails), or do they just run adjacent to each other in the same right-of-way? These haven't really been made clear in the previous discussions. oknazevad ( talk) 19:43, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
It is a recent addition (from Neugraben to Stade) to the end of a trunk line (formerly ending in Neugraben), which is not shared. The recent addition is a conversion from R-Train (regional train), which extends the reach of the S-Bahn by a few stations to Stade. This recent addition to the S-Bahn system is served by special trains, which can switch from third rail DC to overhead catenary AC on this extension. Later they will convert the extension to DC. This is how the system has been growing historically, in Hamburg, Berlin, London, NY, by addition to the periphery. Regarding the significant portion, it is about 20% of the track length, but only added to one line at the endpoint. More important, it is only a tiny fraction of the passenger volume and thereby usage and utility of the system. So it does not substantially change the character of the system as a metro. It just extends the reach of one line of the metro system to the next suburb, without the previous need to switch trains at the former end of the metro system. Previously the passengers would have to switch over to a R-train, now the S-Bahn can provide trains which run through to the new end point. I believe such additions do not turn the metro system into non-metro, it is just an elegant method (by dual electrical system trains) to serve further stations without switching trains. In principle it is a method of sweeping system extension by successive additions of more and more distant stations as the traffic needs in the periphery are growing, as the metropolitan area is growing. Indeed, even London Underground has the same methods, with additions running on shared tracks. This is the point I wanted to make, that it is a completely normal mode of "organic" growth of the old systems. So a too purist set of criteria does exclude the classical systems and allows only the recent small new systems which have been started from scratch on the green lawn and have not yet seen this slow organic growth. Look at them in 30-40 years, when a need for growth or extension arises, and you will see that they will likely convert what is there in infrastructure to arrive at a cost effective solution. They will just steal a track from the main regional rail system and add compatible electrification. Later, with increasing train frequency, they will need to exclude regional trains from this new stretch of the metro. Besides, currently the train frequency on the questionable new stretch of Hamburg S-Bahn is every 10 minutes in the traffic hours, 20 minutes outside the traffic hours. 70.137.135.49 ( talk) 20:02, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
It seems as if with increasing train frequency they have already segregated S-Bahn traffic from regional trains on the new addition, by running S-bahn only on rail #3 during hours of service, regional on rail #4 and #5. Previously rail #3 was shared. It is clear that with increasing train frequency you have to do that because you cannot shuttle in the regional or cargo traffic in a raster of 10 minutes or less, that is too tight. But maybe they are still running other trains in the night, outside service hours of the S-Bahn. 70.137.135.49 ( talk) 20:58, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
I do not know exactly, fellow rail fan, see yourself the train running on the new extension, from Stade to Neugraben, where it switches to DC third rail:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3a59MeNn9U
This gives at least the answer, what kind of train and rail system the new addition is. You see it is not a light rail system and is running in its own right of way. Yes, they grafted a stretch of commuter line on it, they are running it with modified S-bahn trains, which have a transformer, rectifier and pantograph added to alternately run DC third rail and 15kV AC overhead catenary, that is another graft too. 70.137.135.49 ( talk) 21:45, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Here another video in 4 parts, showing the Hamburg S-Bahn 1988 (shown trains built ca. 1938-1950)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsASVHWzJ0E&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDHXpHcnufQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILGHMsfCKIU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPD6RDZ_scY&feature=related
Shows IMO clearly Hamburg S-Bahn being a metro. Notice shared stations with U-Bahn (passing, also U-station signs). The systems are integrated in the hamburg transport Authority HVV. 70.137.135.49 ( talk) 23:19, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
I would say it is like the Berlin S-Bahn in this respect. Also the suburban impression may be caused by the character of the city itself, which almost looks like a suburb of itself. See here, this is the city center:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alsterblick.jpg
Don't you think, "what city,where is the city"? Hamburg (look at the pictures) is unusually spread out, green and park-like overall. No high rise buildings higher than approx 20 stories, to keep the historical character of the city, by ordinance. Practically all streets of Hamburg are tree-lined traditionally!
http://de.wikipedia.org/?title=Datei:Osterstrasse.jpg&filetimestamp=20070618153818
It was heavily bombed in WW2 and the rebuilt parts as well as many old parts look like a park. This is why quarters of the city near center are highly priced living quarters, you can still live there and it looks like park with old 1890 buildings. see here, near center.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg-Rotherbaum
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grindel_%28Hamburg%29
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karolinenviertel
Not like the hell hole of some modern cities. However, some buildings from the '40ies tend to have a sturdy robust look and are 9/11-safe! That is less idyllic. This is how you should build in the US.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburger_Flakt%C3%BCrme
I agree with you that the added portion of the trunk line in the first video is commuter rail. The rest is suburb like, because Hamburg is its own suburb in character. The most authoritative source will be a geographic railroad map, showing the system being with exception of the new addition and the old Wedel trunk inside city limits. 70.137.157.164 ( talk) 04:26, 11 June 2011 (UTC) Take a look with google map "Hamburg Germany", set to satellite view. The stations you think are commuter stations (which exceptions see above) are inside the city area. You can also see that the S-bahn stations in the center are close to each other and pretty dense. google map shows S-Bahn and U-Bahn stations at high magnification. 70.137.157.164 ( talk) 04:40, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
Comparison to LIRR shows, LIRR is much more spread out, longer rail network, much less passengers than Hamburg S-bahn. Hamburg S-bahn has 221 Mio passengers per year on 144km of rail, almost all traffic volume within city limits. LIRR approx 80 Mio, on a 1100km network. So Hamburg S-bahn is much denser and localized traffic, its traffic is 21 times more dense and localized than LIRR traffic. (namely factor 221/80 * 1100/144, comparing passengers per km per year) LIRR is more comparable to the added branch to Stade, the commuter train conversion. 70.137.157.164 ( talk) 06:49, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
For a comparative study of the growth of this system, look at the historical development of the hamburg U-bahn system since 1912 here, you see a geographical map with U and S stations. Note that the U-Bahn also grew by successive additions over time, that may be interesting. But from this geographical map (only inner city shown) you can also see how the S-bahn network (pale green) fills the gaps between the U-bahn lines. The S-bahn grew just like that, by successive additions, I have to find a map of the time line.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Hamburger_Hochbahn_-_Entwicklungsgeschichte.png
70.137.157.164 ( talk) 07:51, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
I may remind of the discussion of historical growth and extension patterns above. In this discussion it will become apparent that undisputed historical metro systems like the NY subway, London underground, Berlin and Hamburg U-Bahn have been growing organically, just like e.g. the Hamburg and Berlin S-Bahn. Above link to the Hamburg U-Bahn development timeline will prove that. So the mentioned S-bahn systems show a parallel development to the U-bahn systems in the same place. Also I would propose to look at a criterion of traffic density and localization, I have done this above with a calculation of passengers per year and km of track length (passengers/(year*km)) Hamburg S-Bahn vs. figures of LIRR. The difference is obvious, a factor 20. Of course for a thorough analysis of systems we would resort to a statistic of rides per localization, showing the percentage of commuter traffic to outside city limits vs. local traffic within city limits. I would propose a criterion for a metro which is based on high local traffic volume with these mentioned definitions of local traffic and with a high volume defined as one which is magnitudes higher than typical light rail service. Please, mathematically interested rail friends take a look at this approach and comment. 70.137.161.53 ( talk) 05:41, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
To illustrate passengers/(year*km) as a measure of traffic localization and density see following example figures:
Paris metro 7 Mio
Peking metro 5.3 Mio
Shanghai metro 4.7 Mio
London underground 4 Mio
NY subway -route length 4.74 Mio
NY subway -track length 1.6 Mio
Hamburg U-bahn 2 Mio
Hamburg S-bahn excl Stade 1.9 Mio
Hamburg S-bahn incl Stade 1.53 Mio
Berlin U-bahn 3 Mio
Berlin S-bahn 1.2 Mio
LIRR 0.075 Mio
I think this is a criterion to distinguish metros from commuter rail. Please try out more examples!
70.137.161.53 ( talk) 22:54, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
The big argument about whether S-Bahn in Hamburg and Berlin count as metro or regional rail services should be easily ended by the fact that there are separate regional rail services (named Regionalbahn) with a totally separate character, purpose, and function. Of course, there are some RB tunnels and closely-spaced stations in Berlin, but no one is arguing for its inclusion, as its purpose is to bring people from outside the city in, not move people within the city, as is the case with S- and U-Bahn. LIRR, as an example, exhibits total RB-like characteristics, despite, as the RB does, having city tunnels and so forth. 92.225.45.180 ( talk) 05:43, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
What about the East Rail of Hong Kong's KCR Corporation? In 2007 the KCRC leased all its operations to the MTR Corporation Limited, the other railway operator in the territory that operates chiefly the rapid transit system in the cities. 119.237.156.46 ( talk) 21:42, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
If Berlin and Hamburg S-Bahn networks are counted here, why is the Munich one not? it also has consistent parts of it inside the city borders serving several quarters with high frequencies including 8 tunnel stations mainly in the city centre. It can be very much compared to the hamburg S-bahn, though it stretches further out. Its total length is 442 km. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.81.250.44 ( talk) 13:25, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
References are key to Wikipedia. The definition of what should go in a list and what not is essential to a list. This list references two sources for the definition of "metro system."
UITP defines metropolitan railways as "urban, electric transport systems with high capacity and a high frequency of service. Metros are totally independent from other traffic, road or pedestrians. They are consequently designed in tunnel, viaducts or on surface level but with physical separation. Metropolitan railways are the optimal public transport mode for a high capacity line or network service. Some systems run on rubber-tyres but are based on the same control-command principles as steel-wheel systems." Schwandl basically adopts the same definition. We should not add additional capricious criteria that are not in the source.
I have the feeling that a lot of this stems from an American worldview where there is a subway, and then you head to Penn and catch the LIRR commuter rail. In railroad-heavy Europe or Japan, it is not as clear-cut, the systems are much more integrated, the transitions are flowing.
Schwandl takes a holistic view of the situation, which reflects the developments in more rail-centric continents: "There are many mixed forms nowadays and probably there will be even more in the future. In Europe (especially Germany and the Benelux) light rail systems (Stadtbahn, Premetro) have been bridging the gap between metros and trams for some decades now and provide, in most cases, a perfect service in their city."
I understand that there must be limitations for a list. Both the cited UITP and Schwandl provide workable definitions. Unreferenced definitions are against Wikipedia rules. I also understand that the above does not make the work of editors easier, the editing now demands a knowledge of true metro systems, as apart from listing stats of subways. But this is what makes Wikipedia exciting. BsBsBs ( talk) 20:43, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
I think this is exactly why S-Bahn in some cities applies and doesn't in others. In Berlin and Hamburg (and maybe other cities which I have no experience with) S-Bahn functions like the express services on the New York subway - simply as a faster train to move within the city. The function of moving people from outlying areas into the city daily, who then transfer to S- and U-Bahns to move within the city, is the task of Regionalbahn. 92.225.45.180 ( talk) 05:58, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Following are some of the largest in the world, but not mentioned.
Sydney: http://www.cityrail.info/stations/network_map (Except the grey lines which are out of sydney metropolitan lines)
Melbourne: http://www.metrotrains.com.au/Maps-Stations/Overview.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Photnart ( talk • contribs) 20:28, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
I will check on Adelaide, Brisbane, Gold Coast, Perth ones later.
I still don't understand the huge inconsistencies between various cities. Toronto has one entry for the Skytrain and Subway. But Bangkok has 2 entries for their Skytrain and Subway? Tokyo has several entries for different operating companies; but Seoul has one entry for different operating companies. Nfitz ( talk) 23:03, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Algiers has since 31. 10. 2011 a Metro ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.74.6.236 ( talk) 22:50, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Before another edit war erupts: I think it is perfectly o.k. to list HK as another country. It's another country, owned by China. It has its own currency, it's own country code, its own government, people drive on the other side of the road, it is separated from China by a hefty border, Chinese need a visa, which is hard to get. BsBsBs ( talk) 23:38, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
That's just dumping common sense and readability to serve political correctness in the eye of the PRC government, which according to WP:Use English most users on this Wikipedia won't agree with ;) Der yck C. 04:56, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
HK vs China is very controversial issue, but it is totally out of scope of this article (this is list of metro systems, not list of countries or sovereign states). We have long consensus (years) to list it under China, so another endless discussion is not needed (also for similar controversial out of scope issues - listing Glasgow under UK, Taiwan separately). -- Jklamo ( talk) 09:13, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
It appears that the main arguments for keeping Hong Kong within the China listing is that it's been that way since 2009, and that Hong Kong isn't a sovereign country, neither of which are actually relevant to this list. If I don't see a new argument within a day or so, I'll go and make the actual edit. Der yck C. 21:05, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
As far as I know, there are only two external lists of metros that clearly specify a country for each system. These are World Metro Database and LRTA World System List. Both these specify China as country for the MTR system. -- Kildor ( talk) 17:42, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
Apart from HK the only other dependent territory on this list currently is Puerto Rico. The website that was cited above, LRTA, has the US unincorporated territory listed separately. Shall we proceed to do likewise? 119.237.156.46 ( talk) 22:06, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
hong kong will continue to be a territory of china until july of 2047. it has a 50 year period of autonomus statsus since 1997 before it becomes integrated into the surounding province. other former SAR regions had already be re-intregrated after world war 2. but hong kong will continue to have a territory status for the next 35 years after that it will be out right annexed. so i am in agreement with the User BsBsBs its not offically part of the PRC yet not until 35 years from now. 69.221.168.185 ( talk) 14:59, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
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|- | Porto | Porto Metro | style="text-align:right" | 2002 | style="text-align:right" | 81 | style="text-align:right;"|70 |style="text-align:right;"|43 |- class="sortbottom" ! style="text-align:left" colspan=6 | Tecnicaz ( talk) 15:48, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
this is my compromise to the several pages worth of discussion above. obviusly funiculars and people movers cannot be included. and we also cannot include regional rail. but the catch is i define regional as interstate rail system here in the US the system would be called amtrack. in the chicagoland region theres a certain train system called the metra and it connects chicago to the nearby states of Indiana and wisconsin. i would consider this a suburban type and it might not be aloud to be included but heres my compromise if the actual system by its charter lets you travel outside of the city limits but stays within the county area it can still be included becasue its the same system. even bus routes go by this system and a regional bus network usally only operates in one county unless its a large city in population and can aford to send its public transit into neighboring county's like say san franciso with its bart system. im not sure but i think that there still adding to the system and the bart system may even continue on outbound beyond oakland city. BART (bay area rapid tranist ) under this difinition can be included. also under my difinition the train network does not all have to be under ground some parts are alound to be above ground at least if its part of the core system such as you get with chicago's CTA but under this difinition we would have to exclude chicago's METRA regional/commuter trains which im fine with. and as for tokyo ,japan we can include differnt train companies just as long as there both acessible on the same fare. for instance you purchace a one day pass and they let you transfer from one train system to the other with out having to spend more money. under my difinition all subway systems of the world can be included unless there some kind of funicular or people mover. under my difinition a train network thats mostly above ground such as cleveland ,ohio including its undergound part called tower city. im not sure if Newyork areas PATH can or cannot be included becasue im not sure if a separte fare has to be leved on the customer or not if it does require a separate fare then PATH should be excluded from Newyork city's totals. as for the person going in lenth about hamburg ,germany all that sounds fine to me for inclusion into being a metro rail. and by its difinition metro should not have to have this completly within city limits criteria becasue by using that it breaks city areas into two parts the core part known as city limits and then a second part known as the inner suburbs but still in the central county. 69.221.168.185 ( talk) 14:41, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
The highest capacity double-track rail rapid transit is believed to be the Yamanote line in Tokyo reaching 100,000 passengers per peak-hour direction.
— Transportation Research Board (TRB), National Research Council, Transit Cooperative Research Program (TCRP) Report 13: Rail Transit Capacity
Excuse me for bringing the discussion back to the left :). Very good points 江戸っ子, I am also confused why this page is based off of the Rapid transit page and yet we use the term metro for the page. Not that I personally have a problem with this but not everyone who reads wikipedia are train fans like we are and may get confused by the change in names. I think consistency is very important. Also thank you for the sources from MLIT and the TCRP which show yamanote is rapid transit/metro. I believe we should include the yamanote line, chuo-sobu line and possibly other lines in the greater Tokyo region. This is not a competition as you said, I am not even japanese I have just realized after several months of editing and fixing japanese articles (I am a fan of japanese rail systems) and reading more in depth about the definitions here of "rapid transit/Metro" that it is very odd that systems like BART, Washington Metro, Docklands Light Railway, S-Bahn and many others were included while JR and others are not. We have some dedicated japanese rail fans on wikipedia who can edit and add the appropriate lines while not including ones that clearly do not meet the definitions. It will not be as difficult as it seems, especially since the MLIT releases good figures on passengers for individual lines. I also think we should seriously consider creating a separate page named "List of Urban Rail" (which includes urban/suburban, light rail to tram) to complement the urban rail transit page which would be very interesting and informative for rail fans. Many systems in Japan and Europe have not only rapid transit but extensive suburban, trams in the center of the city etc and it would be nice to have a page with the entire urban rail systems together. TheRationalDude ( talk) 19:49, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
I removed this list from the article. I believe there are several problems with including systems under construction. First of all: there are few sources regarding an uncompleted system. And we cannot tell if a transit system will meet the inclusion critera before it is completed. A metro system can be in "construction" stages for many years, and some are never completed. -- Kildor ( talk) 00:02, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
So my question is: "why the first one is included, but the second is not?" Since 01.12.2011 Volgograd Metrotram system has 6 underground(or partially underground) stations(length of underground part is 7,1km), while Kryvyi Rih Metrotram system has only 5 underground stations(length of underground part is 6,8km). I think Volgograd Metrotram system should be added.
Rylov Kirill — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.18.121.65 ( talk) 16:19, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
It seems to me that the "opened" dates are rather arbitrary. Specifically in the case of New York and Chicago, both had fully (or nearly-so) grade-separated elevated lines operating at a metro standard for decades before they had subways. New York had elevated lines starting in the late 1860s and Chicago was the first rail line in the U.S. to use third-rail electrification in 1895. Certainly a train system using third-rail electrification and running fully grade-separated can be considered a "metro" system, so that puts Chicago's "opened" date nearly 50 years earlier than the date currently listed, which simply corresponds to the first tunnel to open. However prior to the tunnel, Chicago's "L" had been running fine at a metro standard for 2-3 generations.
I have changed Chicago's date from the one user Eleventh1 arbitrarily chose to a date that makes much more sense within the context of the overall article - the date of the full completion of the "Union Loop," now simply called "The Loop," which is the defining feature of the Chicago "L" and as such makes a much more logical "opened" date than the date of a subway section that simply augmented the "Loop" does. Since the system is primarily an elevated one and always has been, using a subway section opening as the "opened" date would be silly. Using the opening date for the "Union Loop," however, is a notable distinction because it marks the date that the system changed from being a collection of unlinked lines with terminals in the central area, to a system of linked lines with same-platform transfers and easy, fast connections between different crosstown parts of the city - all while done via an electrified, mostly-grade-seperated system meeting all the other criteria of a metro. Emathias ( talk) 16:44, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Why does the London Underground having its opening date in 1890? The first underground line was opened already in 1863, some other train lines being even earlier. Where is 1890 on based? It seems to me no precisely year. The first deep level "tube" line was opened in that year, but if that is the reason, many metro systems would have no right to stand here, which is curious to me. OPolkruikenz ( talk) 11:00, 11 february 2012 (UTC)
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I believe the Hamburg S-Bahn should be counted as a metro, with the same line of argument as the Berlin S-Bahn. 113.2 km of the network are separated from other rail services, 31.9 km are operated together with regional and cargo traffic. About 12.5 km of the network lie within tunnels, 7.9 km are single-track routes. The 31.9km - operated together with regional traffic/cargo traffic - are actually an intermediate step in the conversion of this trunk from Regional train "R-line" to S-Bahn. This trunk to Stade is run by special trains, which have a dual electrical system, which can be switched from the 1200V DC third rail to 15KV AC overhead catenary outside the city. Previously these R-Lines would end at the endpoint of the "true" S-Bahn system and the passengers would have to change trains, now they can just pull in the pantographs and switch to DC and continue inside the city. Likewise, there are AKN-trains which can switch from Diesel-electric to third rail and run on the S-Bahn System inside the city, and these are also recent additions to make the AKN more compatible. Except these recent additions to spare passengers of R-trains/AKN the switch, the classical S-Bahn is fully separate from the regional network. It is expected, that these branches will later convert to "full" S-Bahn lines. This is how the system was historically growing. We can say that in the status of ca year 2000 or so the S-Bahn (except these "compatibility" additions, which are just a bridge solution), that means the 113km of fully separated lines, is a real metro. The daily use of this metro for Hamburg traffic is the same as with the U-Bahn, sharing stations with the U-Bahn, but not tracks, because they have different DC-voltages and third rail systems etc., but this is unnoticable to the passengers, they just go to the next platform, like when switching from one U-Bahn line to the other. Trust me I'm from Hamburg. 70.137.138.216 ( talk) 13:04, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
For a diagram showing how U-Bahn, S-Bahn, A-Bahn, R-(regional) trains are connected and related see following diagram
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Bahnlinien_im_HVV.png
of the Hamburg transit authority. You can see there e.g. how the branch of former R-bahn from Neugraben to Stade has been converted to S-Bahn, and how the A-Bahn AKN has been extended into the S-Bahn network to run to Main Station without switching trains by dual system. 70.137.138.216 ( talk) 20:50, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
I have read these discussions. They seem to assume that the trunk to Suelldorf is running at level like a lightrail, which is not the case, trust me. Also the "rule" that low frequency trunks make the whole system into a non-metro, non-heavy-rail would exclude Berlin S-Bahn, and even New York subway, which is undisputed as a metro. This "rule" also ignores how metro systems have been historically growing in many places, namely by successive additions of peripheral lines from regional /commuter systems, followed by conversion to full metro. (Including even conversion from steam/diesel to third rail rolling stock. This is completely normal for historically growing systems) This has been the case in London, Berlin, Hamburg and many others. It is the natural way of growing a system in a growing metropolitan area, when the growing transport needs in the periphery ask for the conversion of lines to higher capacity. The usual targets of such conversion are stubs of intercity lines, regional train lines and commuter train lines, which then get converted to third rail and thereby eliminate the need for switching trains on the way into the city. The discussion also ignores, how integrated the Hamburg S-Bahn system is with the U-Bahn, really augmenting the U-Bahn line network and even sharing many stations with it. I would prefer if the editors would make themselves more acquainted with the matter of historical growth before making rules. Please before reverting look at the case of Berlin S-Bahn, which is much more spread out into the surrounding area and which entirely grew from successive conversion of stubs of intercity train lines, which got converted from steam to third rail once the traffic needs made this useful. 70.137.152.219 ( talk) 21:41, 7 June 2011 (UTC) I admit that there are systems in the world which have not been growing, but have been set up as systems out of the retort. Many new smaller systems are like that. But the "classical" systems like London, New York, Berlin and Hamburg, in fact among the oldest systems (1908, 1912 etc.) have been growing "organically" along the lines of already existing dense infrastructure, which is typical for the highly populated and industrialized old metropolitan areas, by integrating existing multiple systems (3 separate systems in New York, more in London) and successively adding with growing traffic needs. This is clearly not the case if you build a traffic system on the green lawn or somewhere in the jungle. Besides the NYC subway has at grade crossings too. So this is a completely useless criterion. 70.137.152.219 ( talk) 22:15, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Exactly correct, that was the one I thought about.(closed '73 according to Wiki ref from NYT) But it was a metro then, that is undisputed. So the criterion is faulty. The Berlin S-Bahn also has grade crossings. 70.137.150.170 ( talk) 19:57, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
True, but last they do it in some peripheral trunks with low train frequency , which are present in e.g. NYC. Berlin, London, Hamburg. And the removal of the last grade crossing somewhere close the end of a trunk line doesn't suddenly turn the whole system from non-metro into metro. That is obvious nonsense and nitpicking. A more useful criterion is really if the bulk of the system has typical metro characteristics. I believe this is dictated by the way metro systems are typically historically growing, see above. And (grin) what are 40-50 years in the history of so old systems, which date back to 1890 or 1910? Young people are sometimes really too modernistic, everything has to be invented new with every generation. Everything the old daddies once have built, their criteria, their terminolgy, that all is now outdated trash. We are young... You don't want to claim that the NYC metro of 1970 wouldn't be a metro with today's criteria, right? I would think that goes too far. 70.137.150.170 ( talk) 21:01, 8 June 2011 (UTC) The same argument, only the other way around, applies to Hamburg S-Bahn. You don't want to claim, that the recent addition of a trunk of regional train line at the end of the then existing metro system, for future extension of the metro system, suddenly turns the existing metro system into a non-metro? This is the same kind of nonsense and nitpicking. In fact the metro system stays what it was, but it grows in the periphery with the growing needs of the growing metropolitan area. 70.137.150.170 ( talk) 21:09, 8 June 2011 (UTC) Besides, your modern rail systems, you are likely thinking about, are in today's world mostly Chinese systems, which have been planned from scratch, almost on a green lawn or in the jungle, to serve these huge developing cities and metroplexes, which are almost growing like an explosion out of a few small industrial cities within decades. That is a different case and not typical for the slowly developing age old metropolitan areas/ metroplexes of the old industrial world. We cannot IMO set this as a standard how a real metro has to look like in the world, that is too narrow as a definition. 70.137.150.170 ( talk) 21:19, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
I too tend to be fairly inclusionist for this list (such as arguing for the Staten Island Railway above), and overly strict interpretation of the considerations is not a good idea. That said, I've also argued against some additions before. Here I'd be willing to let it stand, but I would like more info. Does the shared trackage constitute a significant portion of the system? Is it really shared trackage (i.e., the trains run on the exact same rails), or do they just run adjacent to each other in the same right-of-way? These haven't really been made clear in the previous discussions. oknazevad ( talk) 19:43, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
It is a recent addition (from Neugraben to Stade) to the end of a trunk line (formerly ending in Neugraben), which is not shared. The recent addition is a conversion from R-Train (regional train), which extends the reach of the S-Bahn by a few stations to Stade. This recent addition to the S-Bahn system is served by special trains, which can switch from third rail DC to overhead catenary AC on this extension. Later they will convert the extension to DC. This is how the system has been growing historically, in Hamburg, Berlin, London, NY, by addition to the periphery. Regarding the significant portion, it is about 20% of the track length, but only added to one line at the endpoint. More important, it is only a tiny fraction of the passenger volume and thereby usage and utility of the system. So it does not substantially change the character of the system as a metro. It just extends the reach of one line of the metro system to the next suburb, without the previous need to switch trains at the former end of the metro system. Previously the passengers would have to switch over to a R-train, now the S-Bahn can provide trains which run through to the new end point. I believe such additions do not turn the metro system into non-metro, it is just an elegant method (by dual electrical system trains) to serve further stations without switching trains. In principle it is a method of sweeping system extension by successive additions of more and more distant stations as the traffic needs in the periphery are growing, as the metropolitan area is growing. Indeed, even London Underground has the same methods, with additions running on shared tracks. This is the point I wanted to make, that it is a completely normal mode of "organic" growth of the old systems. So a too purist set of criteria does exclude the classical systems and allows only the recent small new systems which have been started from scratch on the green lawn and have not yet seen this slow organic growth. Look at them in 30-40 years, when a need for growth or extension arises, and you will see that they will likely convert what is there in infrastructure to arrive at a cost effective solution. They will just steal a track from the main regional rail system and add compatible electrification. Later, with increasing train frequency, they will need to exclude regional trains from this new stretch of the metro. Besides, currently the train frequency on the questionable new stretch of Hamburg S-Bahn is every 10 minutes in the traffic hours, 20 minutes outside the traffic hours. 70.137.135.49 ( talk) 20:02, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
It seems as if with increasing train frequency they have already segregated S-Bahn traffic from regional trains on the new addition, by running S-bahn only on rail #3 during hours of service, regional on rail #4 and #5. Previously rail #3 was shared. It is clear that with increasing train frequency you have to do that because you cannot shuttle in the regional or cargo traffic in a raster of 10 minutes or less, that is too tight. But maybe they are still running other trains in the night, outside service hours of the S-Bahn. 70.137.135.49 ( talk) 20:58, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
I do not know exactly, fellow rail fan, see yourself the train running on the new extension, from Stade to Neugraben, where it switches to DC third rail:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3a59MeNn9U
This gives at least the answer, what kind of train and rail system the new addition is. You see it is not a light rail system and is running in its own right of way. Yes, they grafted a stretch of commuter line on it, they are running it with modified S-bahn trains, which have a transformer, rectifier and pantograph added to alternately run DC third rail and 15kV AC overhead catenary, that is another graft too. 70.137.135.49 ( talk) 21:45, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Here another video in 4 parts, showing the Hamburg S-Bahn 1988 (shown trains built ca. 1938-1950)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsASVHWzJ0E&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDHXpHcnufQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILGHMsfCKIU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPD6RDZ_scY&feature=related
Shows IMO clearly Hamburg S-Bahn being a metro. Notice shared stations with U-Bahn (passing, also U-station signs). The systems are integrated in the hamburg transport Authority HVV. 70.137.135.49 ( talk) 23:19, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
I would say it is like the Berlin S-Bahn in this respect. Also the suburban impression may be caused by the character of the city itself, which almost looks like a suburb of itself. See here, this is the city center:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alsterblick.jpg
Don't you think, "what city,where is the city"? Hamburg (look at the pictures) is unusually spread out, green and park-like overall. No high rise buildings higher than approx 20 stories, to keep the historical character of the city, by ordinance. Practically all streets of Hamburg are tree-lined traditionally!
http://de.wikipedia.org/?title=Datei:Osterstrasse.jpg&filetimestamp=20070618153818
It was heavily bombed in WW2 and the rebuilt parts as well as many old parts look like a park. This is why quarters of the city near center are highly priced living quarters, you can still live there and it looks like park with old 1890 buildings. see here, near center.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg-Rotherbaum
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grindel_%28Hamburg%29
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karolinenviertel
Not like the hell hole of some modern cities. However, some buildings from the '40ies tend to have a sturdy robust look and are 9/11-safe! That is less idyllic. This is how you should build in the US.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburger_Flakt%C3%BCrme
I agree with you that the added portion of the trunk line in the first video is commuter rail. The rest is suburb like, because Hamburg is its own suburb in character. The most authoritative source will be a geographic railroad map, showing the system being with exception of the new addition and the old Wedel trunk inside city limits. 70.137.157.164 ( talk) 04:26, 11 June 2011 (UTC) Take a look with google map "Hamburg Germany", set to satellite view. The stations you think are commuter stations (which exceptions see above) are inside the city area. You can also see that the S-bahn stations in the center are close to each other and pretty dense. google map shows S-Bahn and U-Bahn stations at high magnification. 70.137.157.164 ( talk) 04:40, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
Comparison to LIRR shows, LIRR is much more spread out, longer rail network, much less passengers than Hamburg S-bahn. Hamburg S-bahn has 221 Mio passengers per year on 144km of rail, almost all traffic volume within city limits. LIRR approx 80 Mio, on a 1100km network. So Hamburg S-bahn is much denser and localized traffic, its traffic is 21 times more dense and localized than LIRR traffic. (namely factor 221/80 * 1100/144, comparing passengers per km per year) LIRR is more comparable to the added branch to Stade, the commuter train conversion. 70.137.157.164 ( talk) 06:49, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
For a comparative study of the growth of this system, look at the historical development of the hamburg U-bahn system since 1912 here, you see a geographical map with U and S stations. Note that the U-Bahn also grew by successive additions over time, that may be interesting. But from this geographical map (only inner city shown) you can also see how the S-bahn network (pale green) fills the gaps between the U-bahn lines. The S-bahn grew just like that, by successive additions, I have to find a map of the time line.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Hamburger_Hochbahn_-_Entwicklungsgeschichte.png
70.137.157.164 ( talk) 07:51, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
I may remind of the discussion of historical growth and extension patterns above. In this discussion it will become apparent that undisputed historical metro systems like the NY subway, London underground, Berlin and Hamburg U-Bahn have been growing organically, just like e.g. the Hamburg and Berlin S-Bahn. Above link to the Hamburg U-Bahn development timeline will prove that. So the mentioned S-bahn systems show a parallel development to the U-bahn systems in the same place. Also I would propose to look at a criterion of traffic density and localization, I have done this above with a calculation of passengers per year and km of track length (passengers/(year*km)) Hamburg S-Bahn vs. figures of LIRR. The difference is obvious, a factor 20. Of course for a thorough analysis of systems we would resort to a statistic of rides per localization, showing the percentage of commuter traffic to outside city limits vs. local traffic within city limits. I would propose a criterion for a metro which is based on high local traffic volume with these mentioned definitions of local traffic and with a high volume defined as one which is magnitudes higher than typical light rail service. Please, mathematically interested rail friends take a look at this approach and comment. 70.137.161.53 ( talk) 05:41, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
To illustrate passengers/(year*km) as a measure of traffic localization and density see following example figures:
Paris metro 7 Mio
Peking metro 5.3 Mio
Shanghai metro 4.7 Mio
London underground 4 Mio
NY subway -route length 4.74 Mio
NY subway -track length 1.6 Mio
Hamburg U-bahn 2 Mio
Hamburg S-bahn excl Stade 1.9 Mio
Hamburg S-bahn incl Stade 1.53 Mio
Berlin U-bahn 3 Mio
Berlin S-bahn 1.2 Mio
LIRR 0.075 Mio
I think this is a criterion to distinguish metros from commuter rail. Please try out more examples!
70.137.161.53 ( talk) 22:54, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
The big argument about whether S-Bahn in Hamburg and Berlin count as metro or regional rail services should be easily ended by the fact that there are separate regional rail services (named Regionalbahn) with a totally separate character, purpose, and function. Of course, there are some RB tunnels and closely-spaced stations in Berlin, but no one is arguing for its inclusion, as its purpose is to bring people from outside the city in, not move people within the city, as is the case with S- and U-Bahn. LIRR, as an example, exhibits total RB-like characteristics, despite, as the RB does, having city tunnels and so forth. 92.225.45.180 ( talk) 05:43, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
What about the East Rail of Hong Kong's KCR Corporation? In 2007 the KCRC leased all its operations to the MTR Corporation Limited, the other railway operator in the territory that operates chiefly the rapid transit system in the cities. 119.237.156.46 ( talk) 21:42, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
If Berlin and Hamburg S-Bahn networks are counted here, why is the Munich one not? it also has consistent parts of it inside the city borders serving several quarters with high frequencies including 8 tunnel stations mainly in the city centre. It can be very much compared to the hamburg S-bahn, though it stretches further out. Its total length is 442 km. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.81.250.44 ( talk) 13:25, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
References are key to Wikipedia. The definition of what should go in a list and what not is essential to a list. This list references two sources for the definition of "metro system."
UITP defines metropolitan railways as "urban, electric transport systems with high capacity and a high frequency of service. Metros are totally independent from other traffic, road or pedestrians. They are consequently designed in tunnel, viaducts or on surface level but with physical separation. Metropolitan railways are the optimal public transport mode for a high capacity line or network service. Some systems run on rubber-tyres but are based on the same control-command principles as steel-wheel systems." Schwandl basically adopts the same definition. We should not add additional capricious criteria that are not in the source.
I have the feeling that a lot of this stems from an American worldview where there is a subway, and then you head to Penn and catch the LIRR commuter rail. In railroad-heavy Europe or Japan, it is not as clear-cut, the systems are much more integrated, the transitions are flowing.
Schwandl takes a holistic view of the situation, which reflects the developments in more rail-centric continents: "There are many mixed forms nowadays and probably there will be even more in the future. In Europe (especially Germany and the Benelux) light rail systems (Stadtbahn, Premetro) have been bridging the gap between metros and trams for some decades now and provide, in most cases, a perfect service in their city."
I understand that there must be limitations for a list. Both the cited UITP and Schwandl provide workable definitions. Unreferenced definitions are against Wikipedia rules. I also understand that the above does not make the work of editors easier, the editing now demands a knowledge of true metro systems, as apart from listing stats of subways. But this is what makes Wikipedia exciting. BsBsBs ( talk) 20:43, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
I think this is exactly why S-Bahn in some cities applies and doesn't in others. In Berlin and Hamburg (and maybe other cities which I have no experience with) S-Bahn functions like the express services on the New York subway - simply as a faster train to move within the city. The function of moving people from outlying areas into the city daily, who then transfer to S- and U-Bahns to move within the city, is the task of Regionalbahn. 92.225.45.180 ( talk) 05:58, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Following are some of the largest in the world, but not mentioned.
Sydney: http://www.cityrail.info/stations/network_map (Except the grey lines which are out of sydney metropolitan lines)
Melbourne: http://www.metrotrains.com.au/Maps-Stations/Overview.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Photnart ( talk • contribs) 20:28, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
I will check on Adelaide, Brisbane, Gold Coast, Perth ones later.
I still don't understand the huge inconsistencies between various cities. Toronto has one entry for the Skytrain and Subway. But Bangkok has 2 entries for their Skytrain and Subway? Tokyo has several entries for different operating companies; but Seoul has one entry for different operating companies. Nfitz ( talk) 23:03, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Algiers has since 31. 10. 2011 a Metro ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.74.6.236 ( talk) 22:50, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Before another edit war erupts: I think it is perfectly o.k. to list HK as another country. It's another country, owned by China. It has its own currency, it's own country code, its own government, people drive on the other side of the road, it is separated from China by a hefty border, Chinese need a visa, which is hard to get. BsBsBs ( talk) 23:38, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
That's just dumping common sense and readability to serve political correctness in the eye of the PRC government, which according to WP:Use English most users on this Wikipedia won't agree with ;) Der yck C. 04:56, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
HK vs China is very controversial issue, but it is totally out of scope of this article (this is list of metro systems, not list of countries or sovereign states). We have long consensus (years) to list it under China, so another endless discussion is not needed (also for similar controversial out of scope issues - listing Glasgow under UK, Taiwan separately). -- Jklamo ( talk) 09:13, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
It appears that the main arguments for keeping Hong Kong within the China listing is that it's been that way since 2009, and that Hong Kong isn't a sovereign country, neither of which are actually relevant to this list. If I don't see a new argument within a day or so, I'll go and make the actual edit. Der yck C. 21:05, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
As far as I know, there are only two external lists of metros that clearly specify a country for each system. These are World Metro Database and LRTA World System List. Both these specify China as country for the MTR system. -- Kildor ( talk) 17:42, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
Apart from HK the only other dependent territory on this list currently is Puerto Rico. The website that was cited above, LRTA, has the US unincorporated territory listed separately. Shall we proceed to do likewise? 119.237.156.46 ( talk) 22:06, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
hong kong will continue to be a territory of china until july of 2047. it has a 50 year period of autonomus statsus since 1997 before it becomes integrated into the surounding province. other former SAR regions had already be re-intregrated after world war 2. but hong kong will continue to have a territory status for the next 35 years after that it will be out right annexed. so i am in agreement with the User BsBsBs its not offically part of the PRC yet not until 35 years from now. 69.221.168.185 ( talk) 14:59, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
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|- | Porto | Porto Metro | style="text-align:right" | 2002 | style="text-align:right" | 81 | style="text-align:right;"|70 |style="text-align:right;"|43 |- class="sortbottom" ! style="text-align:left" colspan=6 | Tecnicaz ( talk) 15:48, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
this is my compromise to the several pages worth of discussion above. obviusly funiculars and people movers cannot be included. and we also cannot include regional rail. but the catch is i define regional as interstate rail system here in the US the system would be called amtrack. in the chicagoland region theres a certain train system called the metra and it connects chicago to the nearby states of Indiana and wisconsin. i would consider this a suburban type and it might not be aloud to be included but heres my compromise if the actual system by its charter lets you travel outside of the city limits but stays within the county area it can still be included becasue its the same system. even bus routes go by this system and a regional bus network usally only operates in one county unless its a large city in population and can aford to send its public transit into neighboring county's like say san franciso with its bart system. im not sure but i think that there still adding to the system and the bart system may even continue on outbound beyond oakland city. BART (bay area rapid tranist ) under this difinition can be included. also under my difinition the train network does not all have to be under ground some parts are alound to be above ground at least if its part of the core system such as you get with chicago's CTA but under this difinition we would have to exclude chicago's METRA regional/commuter trains which im fine with. and as for tokyo ,japan we can include differnt train companies just as long as there both acessible on the same fare. for instance you purchace a one day pass and they let you transfer from one train system to the other with out having to spend more money. under my difinition all subway systems of the world can be included unless there some kind of funicular or people mover. under my difinition a train network thats mostly above ground such as cleveland ,ohio including its undergound part called tower city. im not sure if Newyork areas PATH can or cannot be included becasue im not sure if a separte fare has to be leved on the customer or not if it does require a separate fare then PATH should be excluded from Newyork city's totals. as for the person going in lenth about hamburg ,germany all that sounds fine to me for inclusion into being a metro rail. and by its difinition metro should not have to have this completly within city limits criteria becasue by using that it breaks city areas into two parts the core part known as city limits and then a second part known as the inner suburbs but still in the central county. 69.221.168.185 ( talk) 14:41, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
The highest capacity double-track rail rapid transit is believed to be the Yamanote line in Tokyo reaching 100,000 passengers per peak-hour direction.
— Transportation Research Board (TRB), National Research Council, Transit Cooperative Research Program (TCRP) Report 13: Rail Transit Capacity
Excuse me for bringing the discussion back to the left :). Very good points 江戸っ子, I am also confused why this page is based off of the Rapid transit page and yet we use the term metro for the page. Not that I personally have a problem with this but not everyone who reads wikipedia are train fans like we are and may get confused by the change in names. I think consistency is very important. Also thank you for the sources from MLIT and the TCRP which show yamanote is rapid transit/metro. I believe we should include the yamanote line, chuo-sobu line and possibly other lines in the greater Tokyo region. This is not a competition as you said, I am not even japanese I have just realized after several months of editing and fixing japanese articles (I am a fan of japanese rail systems) and reading more in depth about the definitions here of "rapid transit/Metro" that it is very odd that systems like BART, Washington Metro, Docklands Light Railway, S-Bahn and many others were included while JR and others are not. We have some dedicated japanese rail fans on wikipedia who can edit and add the appropriate lines while not including ones that clearly do not meet the definitions. It will not be as difficult as it seems, especially since the MLIT releases good figures on passengers for individual lines. I also think we should seriously consider creating a separate page named "List of Urban Rail" (which includes urban/suburban, light rail to tram) to complement the urban rail transit page which would be very interesting and informative for rail fans. Many systems in Japan and Europe have not only rapid transit but extensive suburban, trams in the center of the city etc and it would be nice to have a page with the entire urban rail systems together. TheRationalDude ( talk) 19:49, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
I removed this list from the article. I believe there are several problems with including systems under construction. First of all: there are few sources regarding an uncompleted system. And we cannot tell if a transit system will meet the inclusion critera before it is completed. A metro system can be in "construction" stages for many years, and some are never completed. -- Kildor ( talk) 00:02, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
So my question is: "why the first one is included, but the second is not?" Since 01.12.2011 Volgograd Metrotram system has 6 underground(or partially underground) stations(length of underground part is 7,1km), while Kryvyi Rih Metrotram system has only 5 underground stations(length of underground part is 6,8km). I think Volgograd Metrotram system should be added.
Rylov Kirill — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.18.121.65 ( talk) 16:19, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
It seems to me that the "opened" dates are rather arbitrary. Specifically in the case of New York and Chicago, both had fully (or nearly-so) grade-separated elevated lines operating at a metro standard for decades before they had subways. New York had elevated lines starting in the late 1860s and Chicago was the first rail line in the U.S. to use third-rail electrification in 1895. Certainly a train system using third-rail electrification and running fully grade-separated can be considered a "metro" system, so that puts Chicago's "opened" date nearly 50 years earlier than the date currently listed, which simply corresponds to the first tunnel to open. However prior to the tunnel, Chicago's "L" had been running fine at a metro standard for 2-3 generations.
I have changed Chicago's date from the one user Eleventh1 arbitrarily chose to a date that makes much more sense within the context of the overall article - the date of the full completion of the "Union Loop," now simply called "The Loop," which is the defining feature of the Chicago "L" and as such makes a much more logical "opened" date than the date of a subway section that simply augmented the "Loop" does. Since the system is primarily an elevated one and always has been, using a subway section opening as the "opened" date would be silly. Using the opening date for the "Union Loop," however, is a notable distinction because it marks the date that the system changed from being a collection of unlinked lines with terminals in the central area, to a system of linked lines with same-platform transfers and easy, fast connections between different crosstown parts of the city - all while done via an electrified, mostly-grade-seperated system meeting all the other criteria of a metro. Emathias ( talk) 16:44, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Why does the London Underground having its opening date in 1890? The first underground line was opened already in 1863, some other train lines being even earlier. Where is 1890 on based? It seems to me no precisely year. The first deep level "tube" line was opened in that year, but if that is the reason, many metro systems would have no right to stand here, which is curious to me. OPolkruikenz ( talk) 11:00, 11 february 2012 (UTC)