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Merge Lightvessels in the Republic of Ireland to this article
I am proposing this because
Lightvessels in the Republic of Ireland was created in November 2002 as a list with one entry, and still is a list with one entry. I might add that the one entry in that list is for a lightship that went out of service in 1896, which makes placing that article in a list of Lightvessels in the Republic of Ireland anachronistic. -- Donald Albury(
Talk)14:16, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Disagree: While you are correct that this page was made nearly 4 years ago there are many more lightvessels that could be added from this
page. If anything, I think the page should at least be renamed as
Lightvessels in Ireland to comply with the authority of the
Commissioners of Irish Lights who cover the whole of
Ireland for navigational aids. Alternatively, we could rename it
Navigational aids in Ireland and then add the buoys and other aids the CIL is in charge of because
Lighthouses in Ireland is already quite long and does not really need to be diluted with topics that do not comply with the page title. For myself I have been busy with other things so have not even addressed the red inked lighthouses much less the other navigational aids but if you have the enthusiasm and ability I will be happy to give it some input but not as a merge.
ww2censor16:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Disagree: (disagree with Dalbury; agree with Ww2censor). Distinct topics should form distinct articles. Yes, it needs more work, but keep it and expand it, don't bury it!
Snalwibma20:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Donald, you are correct about some combined articles but all those you list above are considerably shorter than
Lighthouses in Ireland which, IMHO, is already rather long, hence my objection to combining lightvessels with lighthouses. I can only see it having to be divided later on, so why give ourselves more work. Lightvessels would include lightships and I would suggest also buoys, and as I have pointed out there is plenty more information on the
Commissioners of Irish Lights website.
ww2censor02:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)reply
I hadn't seen the above discussion when I added the merge tags. The
Lightvessels in Ireland article is a silly orphan. We cannot expand it as there are no more Lightvessels. Lets just merge it it and be done. If someone finds a PD archive with loads of photos and details of the history of LV's in Ireland then maybe that would be worth creating a new article for. But as it stands it is plain daft to have a list of 1.
Frelke07:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)reply
Oppose. There in quite a lot of information about the lightvessels available but I have been concentrating on other topics since I last worked on the
Lighthouses in Ireland page. Try
this page for a start off and you will see that
Lightvessels in Ireland can become a decent page in its own right with at least 37 vessels to be discussed or at least listed. It is just that no one has yet bothered to do anything about it. It would be stupid to merge now and then de-merge later. IMHO
Lighthouses in Ireland is already long enough. If no one else will add to this page then I will do it, but not now as I am busy with other stuff and will not have much time in the next 6 weeks.
ww2censor12:35, 30 March 2007 (UTC)reply
OK - on that basis I think it would be good to see
Lightvessels in Ireland developed, and you have convinced me that there is enough material out there! I retract my agreement to the merge (and I promise I'll do my research properly before I next open my mouth) - but I have no time to do anything much about expanding the page at present.
Snalwibma13:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)reply
Well sorry about this, but that is all content for a
History of Irish Lightvessels article. I'll only say this once. There is only one Irish lightvessel. It is the South Rock Light Float. It is unmanned and is due to be replaced by a buoy very shortly. Its last sibling was replaced on the Coninbeg station by a buoy at the end of last year. The list on the CIL site is a historical list. And a very good one at that. But it does not list Lightvessels IN Ireland. It lists Lightvessels that used to be in Ireland. Any article compiled from such data - aside from the fact that it is copyright - should be titled as as
History of .... The
Lighthouses in xxx and
Lightvessels in xxx series of articles are intended to be lists, not textual articles. We would therefore only be expanding this list by one, and then only for a very short time until it is replaced by a buoy. When we see a list, it should be a safe assumption that those items listed actually exist. It is/will be a list of 1 at most. Plain stupid.
Frelke14:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)reply
Comments Well actually I'm sorry but I think
Frelke's concepts are completely flawed. So let's consider them.
If we are considering starting an article for the historical Irish lightvessels as
History of Irish Lightvessels then we also have to move all historical information from any of the other lightvessel articles to a new
History of xxx county lightvessels like those included in the current
Lightvessels in the United States and
Lightvessels in the United Kingdom, to name those I found quickly. According to this concept then any article that is called
Xyz in xxxx should not contain any historical information. That would mean pulling historical from hundreds, if not thousands, of articles. No, no, no!!!
As for mentioning that South Rock is the only lightvessel in use, then all others should be on a
History of ... page negates the fact that there are at least two Irish lightvessels now used for other purposes; Kilmore Quay Maritime Museum and Petrel that is the Down Cruising Club in Ballydorn. Would
Frelke agree with me that these lightvessels are in Ireland because they certainly do not fit his description of used to be in Ireland? They are still in Ireland! Oh, but according to his article name concepts, maybe they should be in yet another article called
Lightvessels in Ireland that used to be in the service of the Commissioners of Irish Lights because they really don't fit perfectly into
History of Irish Lightvessels because they still exist. BTW, the Kilmore Quay Maritime Museum is specifically being retained in the same style and with the same fittings as it was when functioning.
Who ever suggested it is forbidden to add any textural information to the
Lighthouses in xxx and
Lightvessels in xxx articles. Some do have textural information, so if we follow
Frelke concepts maybe those too need to be removed to some new, albeit, short stubs. I can find no policy or guideline anywhere that these articles must be pure uninformative lists only. The
Irish Maritime or
lighthouses WikiProjects don't mention anything along the restrictive lines
Frelke seem to promote, though I do see that one goal is: "To improve Wikipedia's coverage of Irish maritime issues". Tiny articles or stubs that might not get much additional information would seem appropriate to be grouped together in one article and as the Irish lightvessels might not get much extra data, a short description would seem quite fine in the
Lightvessels in Ireland and not in
History of Irish Lightvessels.
As for the suggestion that the one source I happened to mentioned might be used as a
copyright violation is insulting (maybe not intended as such) to me. If you look at my edits you will see that as a person who (when on RC patrol) reports copyvios, and tags them, when I see them. There was no suggestion that the CIL page should be used in its entirety. Besides which there are other sources that give information about the Irish lightvessels that can be used as additional resources.
So the article will have at least three entries for the time being. Though we might need another new article in which we will add
Le Batofar that is being used as a disco on the
Seine in
Paris?
Both Ferris Point and Blackhead Lighthouse's are still maintained by the CIL. The attendant keeper for Ferris also maintains Blackhead and navigational harbour lights in Larne harbour including Chaine Tower. Larne Harbour Ltd, does have Radar equipment atop Ferris Point Lighthouse, but that is as far as their remit extends. The Irish Landmark Trust only maintains the old keeper dwellings at Blackhead not the Tower and navigational equipment.
Glink18720:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)reply
The information in the article was obtained from the CIL web site some time ago, so if you have a verifiable source then please amend the entries as appropriate quoting the source of the current data. Thanks
ww2censor17:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)reply
Is there scope for a section listing defunct lights, whose "ownership" may not be clear? The example I am thinking of offhand is Killyleagh in Down. 13:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
194.237.142.21 (
talk)
That looks a good candidate. And there are others dotted around, such as the old lighthouse at Howth. I guess any work in this area needs to be cautious, not to reach back to all "lights that were" such as the old Bailey Lighthouse, in a different location, no traces extant. But perhaps a section for extant but wholly non-functional light points, not under one of the major owners listed ...
On a small point of structure, would it be better for the "non-CIL lights" to be listed, as the CIL ones are, in order round the coast, rather than in some order by the name of the owning party (which could change over time)?
SeoR (
talk)
19:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)reply
I always thought the article was about current lighthouses, especially when I first worked on putting a comprehensive list together, but if you think it appropriate to add a defunct lighthouses section that might work as a separate table listing the location and current owner or organisation responsible with coords if necessary like the main table.
ww2censor (
talk)
23:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)reply
By combining the existing information with the data and images from the German list I have created a new sortable table for the CIL section. I removed Ferris Point and Kilcredaun as they are closed, and combined the two Valentia range lights into one. Clare Island was in the German list, but that is also a closed site so was taken out...
Jokulhlaup (
talk)
09:46, 22 July 2015 (UTC)reply
Looks quite good but I would remove the CIL logo image where there is no current image. A blank might be more encouraging towards obtaining an image than the logo. BTW that logo looks like a rather modern design and therefore may not actually be a
freely licenced as a derivative image even though the photo is properly licenced. What do you know about it's origins? While some lighthouses have been closed and are therefore not maintained by the CIL those that still exist should probably be listed somewhere in the article. I'm not familiar with Valentia. Are the two lights adjacent to one another or some way from one another? A look at Google satellite show me coordinates 51.933765, -10.321090 for what looks like a lighthouse on the north side of the island. Can you explain?
ww2censor (
talk)
10:07, 22 July 2015 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the comments. You are probably right about filling in the blanks with the logo, I will try it on my test page to see how it looks, but having only just finished it I don't want to change it straightaway. I used it as it was the lead image from the
CIL page. I looked into the details of the Valentia Light, the
CIL say it is now only a single directional light, rather than a set of range lights as was. Your coordinates are for Cromwell Point lighthouse which is on
Valentia Island as well...
Jokulhlaup (
talk)
14:19, 22 July 2015 (UTC)reply
The image might even be copyright but I'll dig around. If it is, then we cannot use it here at all and could only use it as a non-free in the main CIL article. So, the Valencia light is not a lighthouse but a navigational aid. I suspect the lede might mention non-lighthouse lights within the listing. So much for my geography of Valantia. Thanks
ww2censor (
talk)
16:25, 22 July 2015 (UTC)reply
I have just modified one external link on
List of lighthouses in Ireland. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
The non CIL listing was getting a little untidy due to the stack of images for those lights, so I have tabulated them instead. Working through Rowlett's lists, I only added those that were not bracketed [ie fell below the threshold for a lighthouse], and had a known operator and were active. This has meant a few sites have been removed, as they were inactive etc. Checking the lists reveals a number of closed sites which still have towers, I will tabulate those in due course...
Jokulhlaup (
talk)
13:55, 27 May 2020 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lighthouses, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of lighthouses and other water navigational aids on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LighthousesWikipedia:WikiProject LighthousesTemplate:WikiProject LighthousesLighthouses articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Irish Maritime, a collaborative effort to improve and standardise the content and structure of maritime, seafaring and inland waterways articles associated with the island of
Ireland. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.Irish MaritimeWikipedia:WikiProject Irish MaritimeTemplate:WikiProject Irish MaritimeIrish Maritime articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject IrelandTemplate:WikiProject IrelandIreland articles
Merge Lightvessels in the Republic of Ireland to this article
I am proposing this because
Lightvessels in the Republic of Ireland was created in November 2002 as a list with one entry, and still is a list with one entry. I might add that the one entry in that list is for a lightship that went out of service in 1896, which makes placing that article in a list of Lightvessels in the Republic of Ireland anachronistic. -- Donald Albury(
Talk)14:16, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Disagree: While you are correct that this page was made nearly 4 years ago there are many more lightvessels that could be added from this
page. If anything, I think the page should at least be renamed as
Lightvessels in Ireland to comply with the authority of the
Commissioners of Irish Lights who cover the whole of
Ireland for navigational aids. Alternatively, we could rename it
Navigational aids in Ireland and then add the buoys and other aids the CIL is in charge of because
Lighthouses in Ireland is already quite long and does not really need to be diluted with topics that do not comply with the page title. For myself I have been busy with other things so have not even addressed the red inked lighthouses much less the other navigational aids but if you have the enthusiasm and ability I will be happy to give it some input but not as a merge.
ww2censor16:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Disagree: (disagree with Dalbury; agree with Ww2censor). Distinct topics should form distinct articles. Yes, it needs more work, but keep it and expand it, don't bury it!
Snalwibma20:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Donald, you are correct about some combined articles but all those you list above are considerably shorter than
Lighthouses in Ireland which, IMHO, is already rather long, hence my objection to combining lightvessels with lighthouses. I can only see it having to be divided later on, so why give ourselves more work. Lightvessels would include lightships and I would suggest also buoys, and as I have pointed out there is plenty more information on the
Commissioners of Irish Lights website.
ww2censor02:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)reply
I hadn't seen the above discussion when I added the merge tags. The
Lightvessels in Ireland article is a silly orphan. We cannot expand it as there are no more Lightvessels. Lets just merge it it and be done. If someone finds a PD archive with loads of photos and details of the history of LV's in Ireland then maybe that would be worth creating a new article for. But as it stands it is plain daft to have a list of 1.
Frelke07:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)reply
Oppose. There in quite a lot of information about the lightvessels available but I have been concentrating on other topics since I last worked on the
Lighthouses in Ireland page. Try
this page for a start off and you will see that
Lightvessels in Ireland can become a decent page in its own right with at least 37 vessels to be discussed or at least listed. It is just that no one has yet bothered to do anything about it. It would be stupid to merge now and then de-merge later. IMHO
Lighthouses in Ireland is already long enough. If no one else will add to this page then I will do it, but not now as I am busy with other stuff and will not have much time in the next 6 weeks.
ww2censor12:35, 30 March 2007 (UTC)reply
OK - on that basis I think it would be good to see
Lightvessels in Ireland developed, and you have convinced me that there is enough material out there! I retract my agreement to the merge (and I promise I'll do my research properly before I next open my mouth) - but I have no time to do anything much about expanding the page at present.
Snalwibma13:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)reply
Well sorry about this, but that is all content for a
History of Irish Lightvessels article. I'll only say this once. There is only one Irish lightvessel. It is the South Rock Light Float. It is unmanned and is due to be replaced by a buoy very shortly. Its last sibling was replaced on the Coninbeg station by a buoy at the end of last year. The list on the CIL site is a historical list. And a very good one at that. But it does not list Lightvessels IN Ireland. It lists Lightvessels that used to be in Ireland. Any article compiled from such data - aside from the fact that it is copyright - should be titled as as
History of .... The
Lighthouses in xxx and
Lightvessels in xxx series of articles are intended to be lists, not textual articles. We would therefore only be expanding this list by one, and then only for a very short time until it is replaced by a buoy. When we see a list, it should be a safe assumption that those items listed actually exist. It is/will be a list of 1 at most. Plain stupid.
Frelke14:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)reply
Comments Well actually I'm sorry but I think
Frelke's concepts are completely flawed. So let's consider them.
If we are considering starting an article for the historical Irish lightvessels as
History of Irish Lightvessels then we also have to move all historical information from any of the other lightvessel articles to a new
History of xxx county lightvessels like those included in the current
Lightvessels in the United States and
Lightvessels in the United Kingdom, to name those I found quickly. According to this concept then any article that is called
Xyz in xxxx should not contain any historical information. That would mean pulling historical from hundreds, if not thousands, of articles. No, no, no!!!
As for mentioning that South Rock is the only lightvessel in use, then all others should be on a
History of ... page negates the fact that there are at least two Irish lightvessels now used for other purposes; Kilmore Quay Maritime Museum and Petrel that is the Down Cruising Club in Ballydorn. Would
Frelke agree with me that these lightvessels are in Ireland because they certainly do not fit his description of used to be in Ireland? They are still in Ireland! Oh, but according to his article name concepts, maybe they should be in yet another article called
Lightvessels in Ireland that used to be in the service of the Commissioners of Irish Lights because they really don't fit perfectly into
History of Irish Lightvessels because they still exist. BTW, the Kilmore Quay Maritime Museum is specifically being retained in the same style and with the same fittings as it was when functioning.
Who ever suggested it is forbidden to add any textural information to the
Lighthouses in xxx and
Lightvessels in xxx articles. Some do have textural information, so if we follow
Frelke concepts maybe those too need to be removed to some new, albeit, short stubs. I can find no policy or guideline anywhere that these articles must be pure uninformative lists only. The
Irish Maritime or
lighthouses WikiProjects don't mention anything along the restrictive lines
Frelke seem to promote, though I do see that one goal is: "To improve Wikipedia's coverage of Irish maritime issues". Tiny articles or stubs that might not get much additional information would seem appropriate to be grouped together in one article and as the Irish lightvessels might not get much extra data, a short description would seem quite fine in the
Lightvessels in Ireland and not in
History of Irish Lightvessels.
As for the suggestion that the one source I happened to mentioned might be used as a
copyright violation is insulting (maybe not intended as such) to me. If you look at my edits you will see that as a person who (when on RC patrol) reports copyvios, and tags them, when I see them. There was no suggestion that the CIL page should be used in its entirety. Besides which there are other sources that give information about the Irish lightvessels that can be used as additional resources.
So the article will have at least three entries for the time being. Though we might need another new article in which we will add
Le Batofar that is being used as a disco on the
Seine in
Paris?
Both Ferris Point and Blackhead Lighthouse's are still maintained by the CIL. The attendant keeper for Ferris also maintains Blackhead and navigational harbour lights in Larne harbour including Chaine Tower. Larne Harbour Ltd, does have Radar equipment atop Ferris Point Lighthouse, but that is as far as their remit extends. The Irish Landmark Trust only maintains the old keeper dwellings at Blackhead not the Tower and navigational equipment.
Glink18720:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)reply
The information in the article was obtained from the CIL web site some time ago, so if you have a verifiable source then please amend the entries as appropriate quoting the source of the current data. Thanks
ww2censor17:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)reply
Is there scope for a section listing defunct lights, whose "ownership" may not be clear? The example I am thinking of offhand is Killyleagh in Down. 13:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
194.237.142.21 (
talk)
That looks a good candidate. And there are others dotted around, such as the old lighthouse at Howth. I guess any work in this area needs to be cautious, not to reach back to all "lights that were" such as the old Bailey Lighthouse, in a different location, no traces extant. But perhaps a section for extant but wholly non-functional light points, not under one of the major owners listed ...
On a small point of structure, would it be better for the "non-CIL lights" to be listed, as the CIL ones are, in order round the coast, rather than in some order by the name of the owning party (which could change over time)?
SeoR (
talk)
19:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)reply
I always thought the article was about current lighthouses, especially when I first worked on putting a comprehensive list together, but if you think it appropriate to add a defunct lighthouses section that might work as a separate table listing the location and current owner or organisation responsible with coords if necessary like the main table.
ww2censor (
talk)
23:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)reply
By combining the existing information with the data and images from the German list I have created a new sortable table for the CIL section. I removed Ferris Point and Kilcredaun as they are closed, and combined the two Valentia range lights into one. Clare Island was in the German list, but that is also a closed site so was taken out...
Jokulhlaup (
talk)
09:46, 22 July 2015 (UTC)reply
Looks quite good but I would remove the CIL logo image where there is no current image. A blank might be more encouraging towards obtaining an image than the logo. BTW that logo looks like a rather modern design and therefore may not actually be a
freely licenced as a derivative image even though the photo is properly licenced. What do you know about it's origins? While some lighthouses have been closed and are therefore not maintained by the CIL those that still exist should probably be listed somewhere in the article. I'm not familiar with Valentia. Are the two lights adjacent to one another or some way from one another? A look at Google satellite show me coordinates 51.933765, -10.321090 for what looks like a lighthouse on the north side of the island. Can you explain?
ww2censor (
talk)
10:07, 22 July 2015 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the comments. You are probably right about filling in the blanks with the logo, I will try it on my test page to see how it looks, but having only just finished it I don't want to change it straightaway. I used it as it was the lead image from the
CIL page. I looked into the details of the Valentia Light, the
CIL say it is now only a single directional light, rather than a set of range lights as was. Your coordinates are for Cromwell Point lighthouse which is on
Valentia Island as well...
Jokulhlaup (
talk)
14:19, 22 July 2015 (UTC)reply
The image might even be copyright but I'll dig around. If it is, then we cannot use it here at all and could only use it as a non-free in the main CIL article. So, the Valencia light is not a lighthouse but a navigational aid. I suspect the lede might mention non-lighthouse lights within the listing. So much for my geography of Valantia. Thanks
ww2censor (
talk)
16:25, 22 July 2015 (UTC)reply
I have just modified one external link on
List of lighthouses in Ireland. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
The non CIL listing was getting a little untidy due to the stack of images for those lights, so I have tabulated them instead. Working through Rowlett's lists, I only added those that were not bracketed [ie fell below the threshold for a lighthouse], and had a known operator and were active. This has meant a few sites have been removed, as they were inactive etc. Checking the lists reveals a number of closed sites which still have towers, I will tabulate those in due course...
Jokulhlaup (
talk)
13:55, 27 May 2020 (UTC)reply