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I don' t think we need the maps. They don't add anything and create a huge white space. Yours, GeorgeLouis ( talk) 15:36, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
Firstly, OR? The map information is all verified by references. Every article mentions place, and you can check each one individually if you wish. Secondly, a visual display of information by mapping further organizes information. Wikipedia has a project on maps. In order for it to be OR some kind of synthesis that goes beyond basic fact would need to happen. That's not happening here. This is low order information display and no synthesis is being drawn from it. Crtew ( talk) 14:52, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Probably shouldn't have any red links. See Wikipedia:BLP1E#Subjects_notable_only_for_one_event and Wikipedia:CRIME#CRIM. Write an article first if the victim was really Notable, then post here with a blue link. My thoughts, anyway. GeorgeLouis ( talk) 00:46, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure this list is appropriate for WP. See Wikipedia:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_an_indiscriminate_collection_of_information. I am willing to ask other editors to weigh in. GeorgeLouis ( talk) 01:05, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Ok, there is supposed to be a discussion here, but I'm not even sure what the exact focus of the discussion is. George, would you please care to articulate exactly what is objectionable or unacceptable and focus it a bit more. If you would, please don't just put a link on the page, but expand upon your points and provide your reasoning. I appreciate discussions that are low on jargon. If have no idea what you're thinking is at present. Crtew ( talk) 19:49, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Furthermore, if you're not persuaded (see above), then please articulate why. Crtew ( talk) 19:51, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article 19 protects expression as one of our basic rights as humans. In war zones, journalists are further protected by the Geneva Conventions. When a journalist is killed, the harm goes beyond the individual as a society loses access and often the right to information. Since the killing of a journalist is considered to have a societal impact it falls under a different classification than a typical murder crime, and governments, for example, have been encouraged to make the killing of journalists a federal crime with harsher punishments given to the convicted.
This list and others like it generally fall under the interest of WP:WikiProject Human rights, WP:WikiProject Freedom of speech, WP:WikiProject Journalism and each individual country project, which in this case is WP:Wikiproject United States. In articles about individuals WP:WikiProject Biography is relevant.
This list is no different than:
The Category:Murder victims by country and Category:Murder victims by occupation also seem to be questioned by the objecter User:GeorgeLouis above. Crtew ( talk) 20:36, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
George, you changed all of the "murdered" to "kill" without looking at any of the sources based on assumption that a court didn't make a judgment in the case. If you had looked at the sources, you would see that there were court cases. Crtew ( talk) 15:19, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Are journalists who are killed accidentally to be included here? Or just homicides? GeorgeLouis ( talk) 18:46, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
The journalist can reasonably be believed to have been killed by someone while they were reporting or because of their status as a journalist is how the focus reads. There are military conflicts to consider, such as the Civil War, etc. Crtew ( talk) 19:36, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
A few examples: At the end of 2012, an American paparazzi photographer was killed trying to get a photograph of Justin Bieber getting a traffic ticket issued to him (which turned out not to be the case as he wasn't driving) and the photographer was killed after a police officer told him to move away from the scene. A car then struck the photographer going around a blind curve. [1] This person would not be included. First, his death was accidental. Second, one could justifiably argue that the person was not a journalist. In contrast, Michael Kelly was killed in the Second Iraq Invasion when his vehicle was fleeing enemy fire and ran into a ravine like area and driven by a military driver. Even though Kelly wouldn't be included in this list because he was killed abroad, his situation is illustrative for an example. First, He was killed while reporting, and the maneuvers were a direct result of enemy fire while Kelly was reporting. Second, he was definitely a journalist, and he was credentialed as such as an embedded journalist with a US unit. Crtew ( talk) 22:55, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
GeorgeLouis, as you changed the lead sentence to state that only homicides should be included (a change with which I strongly concur), Salazar must stay in. If one person kills another person by accident, it's still a homicide. Regardless of whether anyone meant to kill Salazar, he was still killed while reporting a story, and so should be included.— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 12:31, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
This is a lovely new source, and I think that the information definitely belongs in the article. I wonder, though, if it belongs in the lead. The scope of the list includes journalists who were killed while reporting, not just journalists who were targeted specifically for their work as journalists. E.g. the new source almost certainly isn't counting Irving Carson, who is on the list, killed by a cannonball during the civil war. The figure 39 has only to do with journalists targeted. Perhaps we could revert the lead back to what it was and put in a new sentence making this important distinction?— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 20:31, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Be bold! Crtew ( talk) 22:44, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Is there a similar list for US journalists killed outside the US? I was about to add journalists and media workers Don Harris, Bob Brown, and Greg Robinson, before I realized that this list is strictly for those killed within the United States. -- JeffBillman ( talk) 18:03, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
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The list for the USA so far makes sense, but overall such lists are a political tool since the likes of the CPJ that compile them decide whether a journalist "can reasonably be believed to have been killed by someone while they were reporting or because of their status as a journalist" in a totally arbitrary way.
Journalists in the USA get regularly killed in circumstances that do not meet the criteria and they do not get counted, and it is accurate, but for countries that belong "the enemies list" like Russia almost all deaths of journalists are counted as if they met the criteria, while in reality they do not: just look at 2016-2017 cases listed in the corresponding article; they are not better than, say, 1998 murder case from the USA: http://www.thedailybeast.com/missouri-governor-halts-execution-of-marcellus-williams-after-questions-about-dna-evidence and many more cases that did not end up in this page.
So the question is, should we update this page with many more cases that do not really have anything to do with journalists' activities, or should we clean up the articles on other countries where all of the dubious and even clearly unrelated cases of deaths get piled on anyway? 95.27.82.241 ( talk) 08:56, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
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Wondering whether to add Carlos Castro (journalist), beaten to death in New York by his boyfriend in 2011, for personal reasons that don't appear to have been related to Castro's profession. 173.228.123.166 ( talk) 21:13, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
Why isn't Michael Hastings listed? 24.157.135.56 ( talk) 21:15, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
List of journalists killed in the United States article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article was nominated for deletion on 21 December 2012 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I don' t think we need the maps. They don't add anything and create a huge white space. Yours, GeorgeLouis ( talk) 15:36, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
Firstly, OR? The map information is all verified by references. Every article mentions place, and you can check each one individually if you wish. Secondly, a visual display of information by mapping further organizes information. Wikipedia has a project on maps. In order for it to be OR some kind of synthesis that goes beyond basic fact would need to happen. That's not happening here. This is low order information display and no synthesis is being drawn from it. Crtew ( talk) 14:52, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Probably shouldn't have any red links. See Wikipedia:BLP1E#Subjects_notable_only_for_one_event and Wikipedia:CRIME#CRIM. Write an article first if the victim was really Notable, then post here with a blue link. My thoughts, anyway. GeorgeLouis ( talk) 00:46, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure this list is appropriate for WP. See Wikipedia:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_an_indiscriminate_collection_of_information. I am willing to ask other editors to weigh in. GeorgeLouis ( talk) 01:05, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Ok, there is supposed to be a discussion here, but I'm not even sure what the exact focus of the discussion is. George, would you please care to articulate exactly what is objectionable or unacceptable and focus it a bit more. If you would, please don't just put a link on the page, but expand upon your points and provide your reasoning. I appreciate discussions that are low on jargon. If have no idea what you're thinking is at present. Crtew ( talk) 19:49, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Furthermore, if you're not persuaded (see above), then please articulate why. Crtew ( talk) 19:51, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article 19 protects expression as one of our basic rights as humans. In war zones, journalists are further protected by the Geneva Conventions. When a journalist is killed, the harm goes beyond the individual as a society loses access and often the right to information. Since the killing of a journalist is considered to have a societal impact it falls under a different classification than a typical murder crime, and governments, for example, have been encouraged to make the killing of journalists a federal crime with harsher punishments given to the convicted.
This list and others like it generally fall under the interest of WP:WikiProject Human rights, WP:WikiProject Freedom of speech, WP:WikiProject Journalism and each individual country project, which in this case is WP:Wikiproject United States. In articles about individuals WP:WikiProject Biography is relevant.
This list is no different than:
The Category:Murder victims by country and Category:Murder victims by occupation also seem to be questioned by the objecter User:GeorgeLouis above. Crtew ( talk) 20:36, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
George, you changed all of the "murdered" to "kill" without looking at any of the sources based on assumption that a court didn't make a judgment in the case. If you had looked at the sources, you would see that there were court cases. Crtew ( talk) 15:19, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Are journalists who are killed accidentally to be included here? Or just homicides? GeorgeLouis ( talk) 18:46, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
The journalist can reasonably be believed to have been killed by someone while they were reporting or because of their status as a journalist is how the focus reads. There are military conflicts to consider, such as the Civil War, etc. Crtew ( talk) 19:36, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
A few examples: At the end of 2012, an American paparazzi photographer was killed trying to get a photograph of Justin Bieber getting a traffic ticket issued to him (which turned out not to be the case as he wasn't driving) and the photographer was killed after a police officer told him to move away from the scene. A car then struck the photographer going around a blind curve. [1] This person would not be included. First, his death was accidental. Second, one could justifiably argue that the person was not a journalist. In contrast, Michael Kelly was killed in the Second Iraq Invasion when his vehicle was fleeing enemy fire and ran into a ravine like area and driven by a military driver. Even though Kelly wouldn't be included in this list because he was killed abroad, his situation is illustrative for an example. First, He was killed while reporting, and the maneuvers were a direct result of enemy fire while Kelly was reporting. Second, he was definitely a journalist, and he was credentialed as such as an embedded journalist with a US unit. Crtew ( talk) 22:55, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
GeorgeLouis, as you changed the lead sentence to state that only homicides should be included (a change with which I strongly concur), Salazar must stay in. If one person kills another person by accident, it's still a homicide. Regardless of whether anyone meant to kill Salazar, he was still killed while reporting a story, and so should be included.— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 12:31, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
This is a lovely new source, and I think that the information definitely belongs in the article. I wonder, though, if it belongs in the lead. The scope of the list includes journalists who were killed while reporting, not just journalists who were targeted specifically for their work as journalists. E.g. the new source almost certainly isn't counting Irving Carson, who is on the list, killed by a cannonball during the civil war. The figure 39 has only to do with journalists targeted. Perhaps we could revert the lead back to what it was and put in a new sentence making this important distinction?— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 20:31, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Be bold! Crtew ( talk) 22:44, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Is there a similar list for US journalists killed outside the US? I was about to add journalists and media workers Don Harris, Bob Brown, and Greg Robinson, before I realized that this list is strictly for those killed within the United States. -- JeffBillman ( talk) 18:03, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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The list for the USA so far makes sense, but overall such lists are a political tool since the likes of the CPJ that compile them decide whether a journalist "can reasonably be believed to have been killed by someone while they were reporting or because of their status as a journalist" in a totally arbitrary way.
Journalists in the USA get regularly killed in circumstances that do not meet the criteria and they do not get counted, and it is accurate, but for countries that belong "the enemies list" like Russia almost all deaths of journalists are counted as if they met the criteria, while in reality they do not: just look at 2016-2017 cases listed in the corresponding article; they are not better than, say, 1998 murder case from the USA: http://www.thedailybeast.com/missouri-governor-halts-execution-of-marcellus-williams-after-questions-about-dna-evidence and many more cases that did not end up in this page.
So the question is, should we update this page with many more cases that do not really have anything to do with journalists' activities, or should we clean up the articles on other countries where all of the dubious and even clearly unrelated cases of deaths get piled on anyway? 95.27.82.241 ( talk) 08:56, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on List of journalists killed in the United States. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This message was posted before February 2018.
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 00:50, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
Wondering whether to add Carlos Castro (journalist), beaten to death in New York by his boyfriend in 2011, for personal reasons that don't appear to have been related to Castro's profession. 173.228.123.166 ( talk) 21:13, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
Why isn't Michael Hastings listed? 24.157.135.56 ( talk) 21:15, 1 August 2023 (UTC)