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![]() | A fact from List of journalists killed during the Russo-Ukrainian War appeared on Wikipedia's
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The result was: promoted by
SL93 (
talk)
21:30, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
Created by Tamzin ( talk). Self-nominated at 03:37, 18 March 2022 (UTC).
Little has been independently reported about Shakirov.this one's uncited at the end of a paragraph; we've had some problems in the past with treating lack of evidence as evidence of lack, it may stray into OR territory. theleekycauldron ( talk • contribs) (she/ they) 01:11, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
:)
--
Tamzin
cetacean needed (she/they)
01:31, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
2003:df:671f:2e2e:1901:604:46f0:7b3 added Dilerbek Shakirov to this list, and I have duly updated things, but I'm left a bit unsure of the matter. All but two of the sources, reliable or otherwise, that I can find in English are simply repeating Iryna Venediktova's claim. The exceptions are this post from the Institute for Mass Information, which claims independent corroboration, and this post from the Press Emblem Campaign, which asserts he died but doesn't give any details. PEC isn't as prominent a journalist advocacy group as the likes of CPJ or RSF, and in the same post they say that a group that is 4/6 Ukrainian is "mostly from foreign countries", so I'm not putting that much stock in that... From what I've gleaned of the IMI, on the other hand, they seem like a reliable enough source for this sort of thing, but it's still noteworthy to me that there has been no significant coverage of Shakirov's death, in English or in Ukrainian. Spot-checking Google News results for Шакірова Ділєрбека, everything seems to be versions of the same article based on Venediktova's Facebook post. There's almost no mentions of him on Twitter in English (twitter.com/search?q=Dilerbek%20Shakirov), and even fewer in Ukrainian (twitter.com/search?q=Шакірова%20Ділєрбека). No obituaries, no interviews with people who knew him. Meanwhile a number of RS refer to Sakun as the first journalist killed in the full-scale invasion. CPJ lists Sakun but not Shakirov. PEC, as noted, lists Shakirov (and are whom I'm currently citing for the statement that he was the first killed), but they also list Viktor Dudar, a volunteer paratrooper who was not engaged in newsgathering at the time of his death (and, I will reiterate, they seem to think that 2 is more than half of 6).
Does anyone have any thoughts on how to handle this? Pinging Ymblanter just as a friendly name who's edited this article. -- Tamzin cetacean needed (she/they) 05:20, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
Also some international Sources, lists Shakirov as Journalist, so that i think he is related to the list. Sources are BBC & Reports Without Borders, they speaks from 7 journalists killed during the Conflict. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:df:671f:2e85:45ae:947e:2679:1cdb ( talk) 18:20, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
I removed the 5 sentence subsection of a person who is not a journalist and was NOT KILLED, because the title of this page is "List of journalists killed during the Russo-Ukrainian War".
User: Tamzin reverted this edit and also reverted my subsequent edit CREATE SUBSECTIONS FOR EACH JOURNALIST AS IN PRIOR SECTIONS without discussion here on the page. If I did the same we d end up edit warring.
Tamzin, you should take a look at pages which are called lists. They are literally table-lists, and not duplicating information ("Further information...." for example is not necessary, if you are inserting a wikilink) as you are doing here. This article looks bloated and cluttered.
I do not agree with your keeping of the subsection "Legal proceedings against Nadiya Savchenko"- First, Deaths of Igor Kornelyuk and Anton Voloshin already have the same subsection, second she already has her own wikipage with the same subsection , and third there is no need to mention her in detail in this "list" anyway- this is a list.
You exhibit WP:Ownership-like behavior. --Wuerzele (talk) 20:52, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
~~~~
, though.I'm not at all trying to claim ownership of this article. I created it, and have been the only person actively maintaining it, but I've been very excited when other users have shown up to add new information or, in several instances, correct my mistakes. Your edit is the only one I've reverted, and I did so because its summary didn't make sense: Nothing about the article implied that Savchenko was a journalist who was killed. I figured you had misunderstood the point of her being mentioned, which is why after reverting your edit I broke "legal proceedings against" into separate subsections. I understand now that you feel the material is excessive, and so will address that. Oh, just to be clear though, I did not revert your "CREATE SUBSECTIONS" edit. Those subsections are still right there.I can assure you I've seen my fair share of list articles. The guiding documents on lists like these are
Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists and
Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists. They allow for a variety of formats. Table lists are useful for many things; I've created two before,
List of invasions and occupations of Ukraine and
H.R. 1. There are plenty of lists, though, that take the form of a littany of mini-articles; for instance, see anything in
Category:Lists of minor league baseball players. Or take a look at a featured list like
List of United States Navy enlisted rates, which makes limited use of tables but is mostly prose.Having established that a prose list of short biographies is permissible, then, there is the question of excessive detail. Given that this is a fairly short list (although, morally, far too long), I would see the acceptable length of each entry to be around 100 words, 150 for incidents that killed two people. Currently, the only section that would exceed that is, just barely, Zakrzewski and Kuvshynova at 157. When summarizing a person's death in 100-150 words, if that person's death led to legal proceedings (a rarity in deaths of warzone journalists), that seems worth devoting some words to. If you disagree, I'd love to discuss that. But I do not think it's accurate to say that every list is supposed to be a terse table. --
Tamzin
cetacean needed (she/they)
01:10, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
@ Kober and Saluzzo53: Do any reliable sources refer to Mantas Kvedaravičius as a journalist? Those I've found refer to him as a documentarian but not a journalist.
If no such RS can be found, he should probably be removed from this list. I've added his name to Casualties of the Russo-Ukrainian War § Foreign civilians and journalists 2 and if someone creates a List of artists killed in the Russo-Ukrainian War (which I know User:Boud has suggested), that could include him, as well as overlap with Brent Renaud and potentially any photojournalists who also did non-journalistic photography; looks like Maks Levin might qualify for that.
An alternative would be expanding this list to be about journalists, media workers, and documentarians. (I don't think the page's title and section headings would need to change, since it's okay to use "journalist" more broadly there; we already do so by including Voloshin, who is more precisely categorized as a media worker. Instead it would mean changes like "At least 14 civilian journalists, media workers, and documentarians") My resistance to that is that it might border on OR, and could lead to the accusation that this list is inflating the numbers.
A third option would be a "documentarians" sublist, but that could get messy categorization-wise because of Renaud and Levin.
I welcome y'all's thoughts. -- Tamzin cetacean needed (she/they) 22:45, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
Analyzing this NSJU post to see which entries can be verified for the purposes of this list. Where there isn't a clear standardized transliteration in English-language sources, I'm using those from The Insider.
The next day the NSJU
reported the death of Zaroslav Zamoysky. Since there's details there and no dispute that he was a journalist or media worker, I've
Added him as well as "ambiguous circumstances".
Would appreciate any thoughts, especially as to the 'd ones. --
Tamzin
cetacean needed (she/they)
19:57, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
I've removed Gonzalo Lira. He was neither a journalist nor was he killed by Ukrainian authorities. He died because of an illness. Whether it was due to mistreatment, or his chain-smoking and anti-vax positions, is unknown. He therefore does not belong here. BeŻet ( talk) 17:59, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
Hi everyone! We still do not have a section listing milbloggers, many of them were freelance journalists and, in some cases, even involved in warfighting operations e.g. Igor Mangushev; Vladlen Tatarsky; Andrey Morozov; Russell Texas Bentley. I think they should be added to the list. Nicola Romani ( talk) 14:24, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This list has been
mentioned by a media organization:
|
![]() | A fact from List of journalists killed during the Russo-Ukrainian War appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 17 April 2022 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
The result was: promoted by
SL93 (
talk)
21:30, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
Created by Tamzin ( talk). Self-nominated at 03:37, 18 March 2022 (UTC).
Little has been independently reported about Shakirov.this one's uncited at the end of a paragraph; we've had some problems in the past with treating lack of evidence as evidence of lack, it may stray into OR territory. theleekycauldron ( talk • contribs) (she/ they) 01:11, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
:)
--
Tamzin
cetacean needed (she/they)
01:31, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
2003:df:671f:2e2e:1901:604:46f0:7b3 added Dilerbek Shakirov to this list, and I have duly updated things, but I'm left a bit unsure of the matter. All but two of the sources, reliable or otherwise, that I can find in English are simply repeating Iryna Venediktova's claim. The exceptions are this post from the Institute for Mass Information, which claims independent corroboration, and this post from the Press Emblem Campaign, which asserts he died but doesn't give any details. PEC isn't as prominent a journalist advocacy group as the likes of CPJ or RSF, and in the same post they say that a group that is 4/6 Ukrainian is "mostly from foreign countries", so I'm not putting that much stock in that... From what I've gleaned of the IMI, on the other hand, they seem like a reliable enough source for this sort of thing, but it's still noteworthy to me that there has been no significant coverage of Shakirov's death, in English or in Ukrainian. Spot-checking Google News results for Шакірова Ділєрбека, everything seems to be versions of the same article based on Venediktova's Facebook post. There's almost no mentions of him on Twitter in English (twitter.com/search?q=Dilerbek%20Shakirov), and even fewer in Ukrainian (twitter.com/search?q=Шакірова%20Ділєрбека). No obituaries, no interviews with people who knew him. Meanwhile a number of RS refer to Sakun as the first journalist killed in the full-scale invasion. CPJ lists Sakun but not Shakirov. PEC, as noted, lists Shakirov (and are whom I'm currently citing for the statement that he was the first killed), but they also list Viktor Dudar, a volunteer paratrooper who was not engaged in newsgathering at the time of his death (and, I will reiterate, they seem to think that 2 is more than half of 6).
Does anyone have any thoughts on how to handle this? Pinging Ymblanter just as a friendly name who's edited this article. -- Tamzin cetacean needed (she/they) 05:20, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
Also some international Sources, lists Shakirov as Journalist, so that i think he is related to the list. Sources are BBC & Reports Without Borders, they speaks from 7 journalists killed during the Conflict. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:df:671f:2e85:45ae:947e:2679:1cdb ( talk) 18:20, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
I removed the 5 sentence subsection of a person who is not a journalist and was NOT KILLED, because the title of this page is "List of journalists killed during the Russo-Ukrainian War".
User: Tamzin reverted this edit and also reverted my subsequent edit CREATE SUBSECTIONS FOR EACH JOURNALIST AS IN PRIOR SECTIONS without discussion here on the page. If I did the same we d end up edit warring.
Tamzin, you should take a look at pages which are called lists. They are literally table-lists, and not duplicating information ("Further information...." for example is not necessary, if you are inserting a wikilink) as you are doing here. This article looks bloated and cluttered.
I do not agree with your keeping of the subsection "Legal proceedings against Nadiya Savchenko"- First, Deaths of Igor Kornelyuk and Anton Voloshin already have the same subsection, second she already has her own wikipage with the same subsection , and third there is no need to mention her in detail in this "list" anyway- this is a list.
You exhibit WP:Ownership-like behavior. --Wuerzele (talk) 20:52, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
~~~~
, though.I'm not at all trying to claim ownership of this article. I created it, and have been the only person actively maintaining it, but I've been very excited when other users have shown up to add new information or, in several instances, correct my mistakes. Your edit is the only one I've reverted, and I did so because its summary didn't make sense: Nothing about the article implied that Savchenko was a journalist who was killed. I figured you had misunderstood the point of her being mentioned, which is why after reverting your edit I broke "legal proceedings against" into separate subsections. I understand now that you feel the material is excessive, and so will address that. Oh, just to be clear though, I did not revert your "CREATE SUBSECTIONS" edit. Those subsections are still right there.I can assure you I've seen my fair share of list articles. The guiding documents on lists like these are
Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists and
Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists. They allow for a variety of formats. Table lists are useful for many things; I've created two before,
List of invasions and occupations of Ukraine and
H.R. 1. There are plenty of lists, though, that take the form of a littany of mini-articles; for instance, see anything in
Category:Lists of minor league baseball players. Or take a look at a featured list like
List of United States Navy enlisted rates, which makes limited use of tables but is mostly prose.Having established that a prose list of short biographies is permissible, then, there is the question of excessive detail. Given that this is a fairly short list (although, morally, far too long), I would see the acceptable length of each entry to be around 100 words, 150 for incidents that killed two people. Currently, the only section that would exceed that is, just barely, Zakrzewski and Kuvshynova at 157. When summarizing a person's death in 100-150 words, if that person's death led to legal proceedings (a rarity in deaths of warzone journalists), that seems worth devoting some words to. If you disagree, I'd love to discuss that. But I do not think it's accurate to say that every list is supposed to be a terse table. --
Tamzin
cetacean needed (she/they)
01:10, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
@ Kober and Saluzzo53: Do any reliable sources refer to Mantas Kvedaravičius as a journalist? Those I've found refer to him as a documentarian but not a journalist.
If no such RS can be found, he should probably be removed from this list. I've added his name to Casualties of the Russo-Ukrainian War § Foreign civilians and journalists 2 and if someone creates a List of artists killed in the Russo-Ukrainian War (which I know User:Boud has suggested), that could include him, as well as overlap with Brent Renaud and potentially any photojournalists who also did non-journalistic photography; looks like Maks Levin might qualify for that.
An alternative would be expanding this list to be about journalists, media workers, and documentarians. (I don't think the page's title and section headings would need to change, since it's okay to use "journalist" more broadly there; we already do so by including Voloshin, who is more precisely categorized as a media worker. Instead it would mean changes like "At least 14 civilian journalists, media workers, and documentarians") My resistance to that is that it might border on OR, and could lead to the accusation that this list is inflating the numbers.
A third option would be a "documentarians" sublist, but that could get messy categorization-wise because of Renaud and Levin.
I welcome y'all's thoughts. -- Tamzin cetacean needed (she/they) 22:45, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
Analyzing this NSJU post to see which entries can be verified for the purposes of this list. Where there isn't a clear standardized transliteration in English-language sources, I'm using those from The Insider.
The next day the NSJU
reported the death of Zaroslav Zamoysky. Since there's details there and no dispute that he was a journalist or media worker, I've
Added him as well as "ambiguous circumstances".
Would appreciate any thoughts, especially as to the 'd ones. --
Tamzin
cetacean needed (she/they)
19:57, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
I've removed Gonzalo Lira. He was neither a journalist nor was he killed by Ukrainian authorities. He died because of an illness. Whether it was due to mistreatment, or his chain-smoking and anti-vax positions, is unknown. He therefore does not belong here. BeŻet ( talk) 17:59, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
Hi everyone! We still do not have a section listing milbloggers, many of them were freelance journalists and, in some cases, even involved in warfighting operations e.g. Igor Mangushev; Vladlen Tatarsky; Andrey Morozov; Russell Texas Bentley. I think they should be added to the list. Nicola Romani ( talk) 14:24, 29 April 2024 (UTC)