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The pronunciation of "Newquay" is not really counter-intuitive, given that it is pronounced identically to "new quay". Granted, the pronunciation of the common noun "quay" is counter-intuitive, so maybe that's why "Newquay" gets on this list. — 217.46.147.13 ( talk) 14:54, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Quay == Key is standard English (en_gb). I have tried to think of a counter example but can't. Another example: Torquay -> Taw Key. I know of a Canadian Norquay -> Nor Kway.
I would say that quay == key is standard en_gb. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerdesj ( talk • contribs) 01:20, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Beaconsfield, Buckinghamshire, UK - pronounced Bekkonsfield. Jdudmesh ( talk) 20:37, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
La Jolla, California and Van Nuys, California —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.112.31.130 ( talk) 19:01, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, I can't write in phoenetic!
Somerset - English county - minor detail but it's Summer Set in pronunciation Hatch Beauchamp - a village in South Somerset, England : Hatch Beech-um Worchestershire - English county: Woosta-Sher (the woo as in wood) Worchester - city in Worcestershire (NB - Worcester, Worcestershire - no "ch" in either case) Captain Pedant ( talk) 08:04, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
Gerdesj ( talk) 01:48, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
The US list is missing "Skaneateles, New York", which is pronounced "skinny atlas." 209.117.47.253 ( talk) 11:08, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Garboldisham, Norfolk is pronounced "GARbulshum" by the locals Captain Pedant ( talk) 08:04, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
What about Lake Orion, MI? You'd think it'd be pronounced correctly like the constellation (or-AYE-un), but locals pronounce it OR-ee-on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.179.233.246 ( talk) 09:14, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
How about Wimbledon, which is not pronounced Wim - blə - don but Wim - bul - don? Vburmester ( talk) 10:12, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Yes, but it is still counterintuitive because it does not adhere to the rules of pronunciation Vburmester ( talk) 21:56, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
No offense, but don't most place names derived from Gaelic (Irish or Scottish) defy the normal "rules" of English pronunciation? That potentially makes for a very long list. Wouldn't it make more sense to mention a few and beyond that exclude Gaelic/Irish derived names? Akerbeltz ( talk) 23:18, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
This page has been linked to from Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language. If the move to Wiktionary goes ahead, please redirect this page to the new page in Wiktionary. -- Wavelength ( talk) 14:40, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
The transwiki option was rejected in the most recent AfD, but the {{copy to wiktionary}} warning tag remains at the top of the page. Is it still valid? -- Old Moonraker ( talk) 13:49, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm aware that the wikipedia policy is to use very broad transcription that might be read in any dialect, however I do not think that policy is appropriate here for place names. It seems to me that the base logic of this article is to show local pronunciations. Therefore, a transcription which is somewhat closer to its actual pronunciation by locals (including dialectical variation) would make much more sense. 60.240.207.146 ( talk) 23:03, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
I know there has to be a lot of places from Maine belonging on this page, I'm just not sure how to go about writing the pronunciation. for example,one of the biggest cities- Bangor is bang-gore, not bang-er. There are countless Native American names which could go on this page. the difference between writing and pronunciation here has resulted in many nightmares for tourists looking for directions. just informing whoever has the resources that there are many towns and rivers etc in Maine that can be added to this list.
I'll be the first to say I didn't do well in english, so i'm not sure if the following are mispronunciations due to how it's written or tourists just not reading it right, but i've heard the following mispronounced quite a bit, followed by proper pronunciation: sebago is seh-bay-go, saco is Sock-o, Piscataquis is piss-cat-eh-kwah, yarmouth is yar-myth, to name a few
Chillicothe could be added. IPA is not my speciality. Varlaam ( talk) 08:19, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
151.170.240.10 ( talk) 10:05, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
places to add:
Thame
Theydon Bois -- 94.14.106.8 ( talk) 14:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
If we're going to include the colleges of Oxford University why not all of the strange pronunciations? Hertford is Hartford, Brasenose is Braise-Nose. Keble is Keeble. Linacre rhymes with Spinnaker. Pembroke is Pembrook with first syllable stress. Wadham is Wad-um. Somerville is Summerville. I'd add it myself but I don't know IPA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CptBuck ( talk • contribs) 17:23, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Because Brasenose is pronounced exactly as its spelt, and Somerville, Wadham and Keble are hardly "counterintuitive" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.233.22.147 ( talk) 20:10, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
The page English words with uncommon properties was deleted per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/English words with uncommon properties. Deletion review is currently under way at Wikipedia:Deletion review#English words with uncommon properties, but pending that discussion the article has no content. I have therefore removed the hatnote from this article redirecting users to that one. Cnilep ( talk) 01:09, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
As it is now, it seems that the list includes names that only happen to be attached to people who live in English-speaking countries. I would suggest that it would be more logical for the list to only include names that are of some longstanding provenance within the Anglophone domain. This would make for a much shorter list, but a more navigable and, I venture, more interesting one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.69.64.60 ( talk) 03:35, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
And to clarify, I'm referring to names such as Favre, Schiavo, etc. These names' pronunciation may be counterintuitive but this isn't of much relevance to English language or history as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.69.64.60 ( talk) 03:41, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
Hi Deflective. I am about to reverse your recent edit to this page. Have you not checked through the article to see what chaos your bot has created? Your revisions to the English section may or may not be fine (I'm not sufficiently conversant with IPA to be able to judge) but the American section has been reduced to gibberish. SiGarb | ( Talk) 20:36, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
I've removed the following "explanation" from the intro, because it is far more complicated than this suggests and this is probably not the place to start opening this can of worms, or at least not without citing plenty of reliable references etc.
" Sometimes it is because the name has been Anglicized from a foreign language and a non speaker of that language does not recognise the origins ( eg Thibodeau) . Or because the original place name is Roman in origin and the current pronunciation may possibly represent the original Latin pronunciation ( eg Bicester) "
Many of the "English" examples given here are of Scottish place names/personal names that are, quite reasonably, pronounced as they are in Scottish Gaelic, Scots or even Scottish English. Likewise those in Northern Ireland and Ireland which are derived from (and pronounced as in) Irish Gaelic. They should, logically, be removed from this list, because if these are included, why not include every non-Anglicised Welsh placename? Then there's the issue of England's many local accents and dialects; should place names be transcribed as local speakers would pronounce them, not as, say, a 1950s BBC news-reader might have done? Is "Dudley" for instance, "Dood-luuy" or "Dadly"? Is "Newcastle" (upon Tyne) pronounced "Ny'cassel" or "Newcaarsle"?
And of course the situation in the USA is even more complex! SiGarb | ( Talk) 21:35, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
As most of the "shires" on the list are English, and as EngE is almost entirely non-rhotic, the following from the article seems at best incomplete, if not entirely misleading: "-shire – /-ʃər, -ʃɪər/; (-shər, -shēr)". My best guesses would be "/-ʃə/", "/-ʃɪə/", "/-ʃaɪə/", depending on whom you're talking to... and about where. 84.203.32.213 ( talk) 14:04, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
I know most Americans are used to pronouncing the "s" in Orleans, but the proper french pronunciation is "or-lay-on". If your have Versailles in this list, shouldn't you also have New Orleans (and other places like Orleans, Indiana? -- rogerd ( talk) 18:26, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
Can someone add Evesham/GB please? I do not know how to pronounce it. -- 93.211.169.78 ( talk) 13:35, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Although it's widely thought (citation?) that Cambridge (Gloucestershire) is pronounced /ˈkæmbrɪdʒ/, the locals pronounce it /ˈkeɪmbrɪdʒ/ (like the one in Cambridgeshire) --- my brother moved there over a year ago and says he's asked around and that no-one there can remember it ever being called /ˈkæmbrɪdʒ/. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.33.159.2 ( talk) 14:04, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Near where I grew up there is a village called Hartingfordbury. The pronunciation of this is urt-brie, which is urt as in hurt and brie as in the cheese. This seems counter-intuitive to me, but I'm not sure if it counts for inclusion in the list and I don't know anything about IPA; except the beer. Cheers Cottonshirt τ 05:00, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
As can be seen in the article and its main history sources, Ashstead was the historic spelling. This lends most local people to say it that way still but I cannot find a citation. Is this accepted, or are we reduced to thinking everyone says it like an Ash-related Ted (whoever Ted is?)... Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
While /stər/ for -cester is "regular", the /ɪ/ sound still comes as a surprise to most.
In Lincolnshire. I agree with the later comment in the article. The common rule for any word beginning Eden, in my experienced view is that is going to be pronounced "Eeden", particularly with places. Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
Really is this that obvious or consistent with exceptions? If it were Bagpuze then definitely. My contention is it should follow the pattern of Huish Episcopi or Ruishton - please comment. Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
This has been a bone of contention for three years. During that time it has largely stayed put. Normally the ending is naturally like whistle, granted. In my understanding I've only ever heard it as properly pronounced by Lancastrians without the wəl sound in the middle. Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
This has been removed. However it seems someone failed to notice its reason for inclusion in the first place. It is due to the second syllable, Elm being pronounced "Em" - can we agree this is counterintuitive? Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
This is probably my favorite polemic. I'm tempted to sit tight and clam up. Whilst one can just about find and cite a recorded source of a person from the London or Home Counties saying straight, without pretense of grandeur, Tot-te-nam, it is exactly like Puttenham, Hertfordshire, Puttenham, Surrey and at least 6 others so I don't think it should be included, even as a <>. Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
This is my addition. Afasmit has hidden it, relegated it to <>. In my view it ought to be pronounced in the same way as Longacre. Perhaps there are other examples? Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
Given the rare verb heavering and perhaps cleavering I am a bit surprised this one has dubious annotated in <>. Really it is a place that would logically be spelled Yevering given the verbs we know of rather than the nouns but some officious middle English scribe seems to have added an a. I don't see why given the enormous common mistakes the -ing as a tribal place name ending causes they could not have used something a little more logical in spelling. Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
Far be it from me to say anything, other than someone hates noting the historic pronunciation /kəˈlaʊnə/ assuming that was added in good faith. Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
Look at the category below, give me statistics on how common a name like Chynna Phillips is and then decide whether we will add all 1000 or so names with less than 0.1% of the English and US populations having them, or whether this is to be excluded? Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
This is no place to start describing exotic celebrities like notoriously difficult to pronounce from spelling Israeli/Chinese ones just as people struggle with their names. Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
What's exactly happened here? Not making sense of the diffs and the summaries are useless. — Lfdder ( talk) 11:49, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
I fail to see how, as is stated in the lead, the pronunciation of Schenectady ( /skəˈnɛktədi/) is not counterintuitive. I've never been able to look at that word without my brain reading it as /ˈʃɛ.nɪkˌteɪdiː/. — TORTOISE WRATH 22:27, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
I was going to remove a couple of the Canadian examples, since they seem to be conflicting with the introduction. But there were to many to just be bold uninvitedly, so I'll put 'em up here.
With the following I think the pronunciation is understandable if you get it, even if not obvious:
Even if stated as absolutes, of course these are only my takes, but I think such a list should go for the more extreme ones, lest it be filled with basically any place name. -- Ulkomaalainen ( talk) 13:21, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
I added Niamh to the general given name list. It might belong in the Common Irish/Welsh list, so if someone wants to move it, that's cool (it belongs with Siobhan anyway, right?)
I'd like to see Irene (i.e. Irenë) added as well, but I don't have a "definitive" IPA for that one, and the name's entry isn't all that helpful. Perhaps "Irenë" (there's certainly precedent) is good enough? Eastcheap ( talk) 04:52, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Is it really the "Berenstain Bears", and not "Berenstein Bears", like a lot of people believe? Seems like this is a pretty common mistake.
There is a (probably tongue in cheek) Blog post here that attributes this to a time warp -- most people would swear it is the latter spelling, even in the face of proof.
http://woodbetweenworlds.blogspot.ca/2012/08/the-berenstein-bears-we-are-living-in.html
The above Blog post has some interesting comments by the son of Jan and Stan Berenstain (author of the "Berenstain Bears" collection.) You can find a surprising number of other references on the web to this odd phenomenon. A lot of people SWEAR it is Berenstein (with an "ein" rather than "ain"). While investigating this phenomenon, I ended up here on this amazing page, and I think it might be interesting to include this. 24.129.47.121 ( talk) 13:44, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Is this article supposed to be about English or longtime Anglicized names with counterintuitive pronunciations, or any name borne by an English-speaking person in a largely English-speaking country whose name happens to have an unexpected pronunciation for another English-speaking person?
Since the latter opens up a huge can of worms -- the US is a nation of immigrants, a great many of whom have names which strictly speaking have counterintuitive pronunciations by the normal rules of English orthography, only many are so familiar they don't seem that way -- and because other examples of the umlaut are not included (such as Boehner), I'm being bold and cutting Groening from the surname section. It's a German surname whose pronunciation is perfectly intuitive to a German-speaker. 192.35.35.34 ( talk) 22:21, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Is "Celeb" a misprint of "Caleb", or is it really a common given name? It's invisible under the results for celebrity in attempting a web search for usages.
Willhsmit ( talk) 04:07, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
According to the list of surnames in this article, this name is pronounced /ˈdʒɑːvɪs/. However, I know a number of people in the UK who have the name, several of them members of my family, and all of them pronounce it /ˈdʒɜːvɪs/ (rhyming with "service"). All the people I know with the name have a connection with the town of Stafford. Is there anyone out there who has this surname, spelt with an e, who pronounces it with the a sound? I have never met one. LynwoodF ( talk) 22:41, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
Many of the place names in New Zealand are not in English, but Maori. Given that their pronunciations are not counterintuitive in Maori, and that this page is for English names only, I have removed these entries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimworm ( talk • contribs) 10:59, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I suggest that the scope of this page be narrowed considerably to names that are genuinely counterintuitive rather than those for which some speakers are merely unaware of the standard pronunciation rules. For example, Featherstonhaugh/Fanshaw, Tagliaferro/Tulliver, Marjoribanks/Marshbanks are worth including, but Hermione or Penelope are not. A pronunciation that has drifted a little due to changes in spelling or vowel/consonant shifts in the language over time is not counterintuitive to an educated native speaker; neither is a loan word which has been anglicised (Beauchamp/Beecham), or a word which has been mildly abbreviated but has not elided entire syllables (Bicester/Bister)
A word should only be included here as counterintuitive if it passes this test: it cannot be pronounced correctly, even by an educated native speaker, unless they have previously been told the correct pronunciation. Literally, it cannot be intuited.
I admit a few entries are borderline under this definition; Menzies & Dalziel (Meengis and Dayell) are not counterintuitive to an educated Scot, but would be to any Sassenach who was not aware that the 'z' was originally a different letter now missing in English orthography which was pronounced roughly like the sound represented by 'ng'; Worcester/Wooster may be too much of an elision to skate by on the elision exception (Pron. "Woorster" becomes "Wooster"); Mainwaring suffers a vowel shift and de-emphasises the 'w' to become Manaring; but there are far fewer of these problematic borderline calls than there are of names which are included here solely because the person who added them is ignorant of English pronunciation rules or those of the languages from where many of the names came - there is no excuse for including any of Anthony, Caleb, Chloe, Chloë, Geoffrey, Freda, Hermione, Hugh, Isaac, Isla, Liza, Malachi, Michael, Naomi, Näomi, Penelope, Phoebe, Sonny, Thomas, Vaughan, Vaughn, Wynonna, Zachary, or Zoe, all of which would be pronounced correctly by most native speakers of English on first sight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.116.98.136 ( talk) 02:34, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
Why don't we make a table for the names and add a section for how the names would be spelled if the followed pronunciation conventions of the respective country? Also can we have a more catchy and recognizable name for this thing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zontas ( talk • contribs) 02:57, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
I want to add the Canberra, Australia suburb "Fairbairn", [1] that is pronounced "Fair-burn". This site [2] pronounces it more like "Fair-bear-n", but locals say it like "Fair-burn". How do I support/reference the local pronunciation? And can someone help me with the IPA pronunciation? Thanks. peterl ( talk) 16:48, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
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I wonder if "counterintuitive" is a POV statement and is wholly dependent on what is familiar to the reader or to a certain group of readers, which is not WP:GLOBAL. It may be counterintuitive for a native English speaker, but might not be counterintuitive for, say, a Brit vs. an American, or for a Scot or a Native American, or a latinophone or francophone, or anyone familiar with the linguistic origin of the name.
I suggest "List of names in English-speaking countries that are frequently mispronounced." The word "frequently" isn't perfect, but it's less contentious than "counterintuitive" which is much more subjective.
Honestly the page structure of this meta-list is problematic. Place names and surnames are lumped together, as are place names of different countries who speak English differently. IMO better to separate place names geographically and first/last names ethnically/by heritage.
- Keith D. Tyler ¶ 23:03, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
A number of the entries in this article are not really English (language), they are transliterations of names in other languages (First Nations, Hindi, Irish, Welsh etc). It seems to me that they really should not be listed because it is entirely unreasonable to expect them to be pronounced according to the conventions of English. Does anyone have a convincing argument for their retention? -- John Maynard Friedman ( talk) 17:37, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
I know there's a place with that name already in the UK, so it might be covered there, but there's also a similarly spelt city in Ontario pronounced "Chat-Ham", which is counterintuitive to the "th" sound. And I've heard someone refer to it as "Chay-tham", which is incorrect. Infinity Project ( talk) 06:44, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
Colin Powell was not a “politician.” He never ran for any office. 2601:183:4880:EFC0:180A:1C5A:2980:C71A ( talk) 17:23, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
I fixed all respellings to make sure they are all correct, including adding another s to not make a ‘z’ sound and h after g before e, i, and y. Güiseppi669 ( talk) 09:07, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
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The pronunciation of "Newquay" is not really counter-intuitive, given that it is pronounced identically to "new quay". Granted, the pronunciation of the common noun "quay" is counter-intuitive, so maybe that's why "Newquay" gets on this list. — 217.46.147.13 ( talk) 14:54, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Quay == Key is standard English (en_gb). I have tried to think of a counter example but can't. Another example: Torquay -> Taw Key. I know of a Canadian Norquay -> Nor Kway.
I would say that quay == key is standard en_gb. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerdesj ( talk • contribs) 01:20, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Beaconsfield, Buckinghamshire, UK - pronounced Bekkonsfield. Jdudmesh ( talk) 20:37, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
La Jolla, California and Van Nuys, California —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.112.31.130 ( talk) 19:01, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, I can't write in phoenetic!
Somerset - English county - minor detail but it's Summer Set in pronunciation Hatch Beauchamp - a village in South Somerset, England : Hatch Beech-um Worchestershire - English county: Woosta-Sher (the woo as in wood) Worchester - city in Worcestershire (NB - Worcester, Worcestershire - no "ch" in either case) Captain Pedant ( talk) 08:04, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
Gerdesj ( talk) 01:48, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
The US list is missing "Skaneateles, New York", which is pronounced "skinny atlas." 209.117.47.253 ( talk) 11:08, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Garboldisham, Norfolk is pronounced "GARbulshum" by the locals Captain Pedant ( talk) 08:04, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
What about Lake Orion, MI? You'd think it'd be pronounced correctly like the constellation (or-AYE-un), but locals pronounce it OR-ee-on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.179.233.246 ( talk) 09:14, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
How about Wimbledon, which is not pronounced Wim - blə - don but Wim - bul - don? Vburmester ( talk) 10:12, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Yes, but it is still counterintuitive because it does not adhere to the rules of pronunciation Vburmester ( talk) 21:56, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
No offense, but don't most place names derived from Gaelic (Irish or Scottish) defy the normal "rules" of English pronunciation? That potentially makes for a very long list. Wouldn't it make more sense to mention a few and beyond that exclude Gaelic/Irish derived names? Akerbeltz ( talk) 23:18, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
This page has been linked to from Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language. If the move to Wiktionary goes ahead, please redirect this page to the new page in Wiktionary. -- Wavelength ( talk) 14:40, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
The transwiki option was rejected in the most recent AfD, but the {{copy to wiktionary}} warning tag remains at the top of the page. Is it still valid? -- Old Moonraker ( talk) 13:49, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm aware that the wikipedia policy is to use very broad transcription that might be read in any dialect, however I do not think that policy is appropriate here for place names. It seems to me that the base logic of this article is to show local pronunciations. Therefore, a transcription which is somewhat closer to its actual pronunciation by locals (including dialectical variation) would make much more sense. 60.240.207.146 ( talk) 23:03, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
I know there has to be a lot of places from Maine belonging on this page, I'm just not sure how to go about writing the pronunciation. for example,one of the biggest cities- Bangor is bang-gore, not bang-er. There are countless Native American names which could go on this page. the difference between writing and pronunciation here has resulted in many nightmares for tourists looking for directions. just informing whoever has the resources that there are many towns and rivers etc in Maine that can be added to this list.
I'll be the first to say I didn't do well in english, so i'm not sure if the following are mispronunciations due to how it's written or tourists just not reading it right, but i've heard the following mispronounced quite a bit, followed by proper pronunciation: sebago is seh-bay-go, saco is Sock-o, Piscataquis is piss-cat-eh-kwah, yarmouth is yar-myth, to name a few
Chillicothe could be added. IPA is not my speciality. Varlaam ( talk) 08:19, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
151.170.240.10 ( talk) 10:05, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
places to add:
Thame
Theydon Bois -- 94.14.106.8 ( talk) 14:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
If we're going to include the colleges of Oxford University why not all of the strange pronunciations? Hertford is Hartford, Brasenose is Braise-Nose. Keble is Keeble. Linacre rhymes with Spinnaker. Pembroke is Pembrook with first syllable stress. Wadham is Wad-um. Somerville is Summerville. I'd add it myself but I don't know IPA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CptBuck ( talk • contribs) 17:23, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Because Brasenose is pronounced exactly as its spelt, and Somerville, Wadham and Keble are hardly "counterintuitive" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.233.22.147 ( talk) 20:10, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
The page English words with uncommon properties was deleted per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/English words with uncommon properties. Deletion review is currently under way at Wikipedia:Deletion review#English words with uncommon properties, but pending that discussion the article has no content. I have therefore removed the hatnote from this article redirecting users to that one. Cnilep ( talk) 01:09, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
As it is now, it seems that the list includes names that only happen to be attached to people who live in English-speaking countries. I would suggest that it would be more logical for the list to only include names that are of some longstanding provenance within the Anglophone domain. This would make for a much shorter list, but a more navigable and, I venture, more interesting one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.69.64.60 ( talk) 03:35, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
And to clarify, I'm referring to names such as Favre, Schiavo, etc. These names' pronunciation may be counterintuitive but this isn't of much relevance to English language or history as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.69.64.60 ( talk) 03:41, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
Hi Deflective. I am about to reverse your recent edit to this page. Have you not checked through the article to see what chaos your bot has created? Your revisions to the English section may or may not be fine (I'm not sufficiently conversant with IPA to be able to judge) but the American section has been reduced to gibberish. SiGarb | ( Talk) 20:36, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
I've removed the following "explanation" from the intro, because it is far more complicated than this suggests and this is probably not the place to start opening this can of worms, or at least not without citing plenty of reliable references etc.
" Sometimes it is because the name has been Anglicized from a foreign language and a non speaker of that language does not recognise the origins ( eg Thibodeau) . Or because the original place name is Roman in origin and the current pronunciation may possibly represent the original Latin pronunciation ( eg Bicester) "
Many of the "English" examples given here are of Scottish place names/personal names that are, quite reasonably, pronounced as they are in Scottish Gaelic, Scots or even Scottish English. Likewise those in Northern Ireland and Ireland which are derived from (and pronounced as in) Irish Gaelic. They should, logically, be removed from this list, because if these are included, why not include every non-Anglicised Welsh placename? Then there's the issue of England's many local accents and dialects; should place names be transcribed as local speakers would pronounce them, not as, say, a 1950s BBC news-reader might have done? Is "Dudley" for instance, "Dood-luuy" or "Dadly"? Is "Newcastle" (upon Tyne) pronounced "Ny'cassel" or "Newcaarsle"?
And of course the situation in the USA is even more complex! SiGarb | ( Talk) 21:35, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
As most of the "shires" on the list are English, and as EngE is almost entirely non-rhotic, the following from the article seems at best incomplete, if not entirely misleading: "-shire – /-ʃər, -ʃɪər/; (-shər, -shēr)". My best guesses would be "/-ʃə/", "/-ʃɪə/", "/-ʃaɪə/", depending on whom you're talking to... and about where. 84.203.32.213 ( talk) 14:04, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
I know most Americans are used to pronouncing the "s" in Orleans, but the proper french pronunciation is "or-lay-on". If your have Versailles in this list, shouldn't you also have New Orleans (and other places like Orleans, Indiana? -- rogerd ( talk) 18:26, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
Can someone add Evesham/GB please? I do not know how to pronounce it. -- 93.211.169.78 ( talk) 13:35, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Although it's widely thought (citation?) that Cambridge (Gloucestershire) is pronounced /ˈkæmbrɪdʒ/, the locals pronounce it /ˈkeɪmbrɪdʒ/ (like the one in Cambridgeshire) --- my brother moved there over a year ago and says he's asked around and that no-one there can remember it ever being called /ˈkæmbrɪdʒ/. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.33.159.2 ( talk) 14:04, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Near where I grew up there is a village called Hartingfordbury. The pronunciation of this is urt-brie, which is urt as in hurt and brie as in the cheese. This seems counter-intuitive to me, but I'm not sure if it counts for inclusion in the list and I don't know anything about IPA; except the beer. Cheers Cottonshirt τ 05:00, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
As can be seen in the article and its main history sources, Ashstead was the historic spelling. This lends most local people to say it that way still but I cannot find a citation. Is this accepted, or are we reduced to thinking everyone says it like an Ash-related Ted (whoever Ted is?)... Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
While /stər/ for -cester is "regular", the /ɪ/ sound still comes as a surprise to most.
In Lincolnshire. I agree with the later comment in the article. The common rule for any word beginning Eden, in my experienced view is that is going to be pronounced "Eeden", particularly with places. Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
Really is this that obvious or consistent with exceptions? If it were Bagpuze then definitely. My contention is it should follow the pattern of Huish Episcopi or Ruishton - please comment. Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
This has been a bone of contention for three years. During that time it has largely stayed put. Normally the ending is naturally like whistle, granted. In my understanding I've only ever heard it as properly pronounced by Lancastrians without the wəl sound in the middle. Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
This has been removed. However it seems someone failed to notice its reason for inclusion in the first place. It is due to the second syllable, Elm being pronounced "Em" - can we agree this is counterintuitive? Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
This is probably my favorite polemic. I'm tempted to sit tight and clam up. Whilst one can just about find and cite a recorded source of a person from the London or Home Counties saying straight, without pretense of grandeur, Tot-te-nam, it is exactly like Puttenham, Hertfordshire, Puttenham, Surrey and at least 6 others so I don't think it should be included, even as a <>. Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
This is my addition. Afasmit has hidden it, relegated it to <>. In my view it ought to be pronounced in the same way as Longacre. Perhaps there are other examples? Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
Given the rare verb heavering and perhaps cleavering I am a bit surprised this one has dubious annotated in <>. Really it is a place that would logically be spelled Yevering given the verbs we know of rather than the nouns but some officious middle English scribe seems to have added an a. I don't see why given the enormous common mistakes the -ing as a tribal place name ending causes they could not have used something a little more logical in spelling. Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
Far be it from me to say anything, other than someone hates noting the historic pronunciation /kəˈlaʊnə/ assuming that was added in good faith. Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
Look at the category below, give me statistics on how common a name like Chynna Phillips is and then decide whether we will add all 1000 or so names with less than 0.1% of the English and US populations having them, or whether this is to be excluded? Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
This is no place to start describing exotic celebrities like notoriously difficult to pronounce from spelling Israeli/Chinese ones just as people struggle with their names. Adam37 ( talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
What's exactly happened here? Not making sense of the diffs and the summaries are useless. — Lfdder ( talk) 11:49, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
I fail to see how, as is stated in the lead, the pronunciation of Schenectady ( /skəˈnɛktədi/) is not counterintuitive. I've never been able to look at that word without my brain reading it as /ˈʃɛ.nɪkˌteɪdiː/. — TORTOISE WRATH 22:27, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
I was going to remove a couple of the Canadian examples, since they seem to be conflicting with the introduction. But there were to many to just be bold uninvitedly, so I'll put 'em up here.
With the following I think the pronunciation is understandable if you get it, even if not obvious:
Even if stated as absolutes, of course these are only my takes, but I think such a list should go for the more extreme ones, lest it be filled with basically any place name. -- Ulkomaalainen ( talk) 13:21, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
I added Niamh to the general given name list. It might belong in the Common Irish/Welsh list, so if someone wants to move it, that's cool (it belongs with Siobhan anyway, right?)
I'd like to see Irene (i.e. Irenë) added as well, but I don't have a "definitive" IPA for that one, and the name's entry isn't all that helpful. Perhaps "Irenë" (there's certainly precedent) is good enough? Eastcheap ( talk) 04:52, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Is it really the "Berenstain Bears", and not "Berenstein Bears", like a lot of people believe? Seems like this is a pretty common mistake.
There is a (probably tongue in cheek) Blog post here that attributes this to a time warp -- most people would swear it is the latter spelling, even in the face of proof.
http://woodbetweenworlds.blogspot.ca/2012/08/the-berenstein-bears-we-are-living-in.html
The above Blog post has some interesting comments by the son of Jan and Stan Berenstain (author of the "Berenstain Bears" collection.) You can find a surprising number of other references on the web to this odd phenomenon. A lot of people SWEAR it is Berenstein (with an "ein" rather than "ain"). While investigating this phenomenon, I ended up here on this amazing page, and I think it might be interesting to include this. 24.129.47.121 ( talk) 13:44, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Is this article supposed to be about English or longtime Anglicized names with counterintuitive pronunciations, or any name borne by an English-speaking person in a largely English-speaking country whose name happens to have an unexpected pronunciation for another English-speaking person?
Since the latter opens up a huge can of worms -- the US is a nation of immigrants, a great many of whom have names which strictly speaking have counterintuitive pronunciations by the normal rules of English orthography, only many are so familiar they don't seem that way -- and because other examples of the umlaut are not included (such as Boehner), I'm being bold and cutting Groening from the surname section. It's a German surname whose pronunciation is perfectly intuitive to a German-speaker. 192.35.35.34 ( talk) 22:21, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Is "Celeb" a misprint of "Caleb", or is it really a common given name? It's invisible under the results for celebrity in attempting a web search for usages.
Willhsmit ( talk) 04:07, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
According to the list of surnames in this article, this name is pronounced /ˈdʒɑːvɪs/. However, I know a number of people in the UK who have the name, several of them members of my family, and all of them pronounce it /ˈdʒɜːvɪs/ (rhyming with "service"). All the people I know with the name have a connection with the town of Stafford. Is there anyone out there who has this surname, spelt with an e, who pronounces it with the a sound? I have never met one. LynwoodF ( talk) 22:41, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
Many of the place names in New Zealand are not in English, but Maori. Given that their pronunciations are not counterintuitive in Maori, and that this page is for English names only, I have removed these entries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimworm ( talk • contribs) 10:59, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I suggest that the scope of this page be narrowed considerably to names that are genuinely counterintuitive rather than those for which some speakers are merely unaware of the standard pronunciation rules. For example, Featherstonhaugh/Fanshaw, Tagliaferro/Tulliver, Marjoribanks/Marshbanks are worth including, but Hermione or Penelope are not. A pronunciation that has drifted a little due to changes in spelling or vowel/consonant shifts in the language over time is not counterintuitive to an educated native speaker; neither is a loan word which has been anglicised (Beauchamp/Beecham), or a word which has been mildly abbreviated but has not elided entire syllables (Bicester/Bister)
A word should only be included here as counterintuitive if it passes this test: it cannot be pronounced correctly, even by an educated native speaker, unless they have previously been told the correct pronunciation. Literally, it cannot be intuited.
I admit a few entries are borderline under this definition; Menzies & Dalziel (Meengis and Dayell) are not counterintuitive to an educated Scot, but would be to any Sassenach who was not aware that the 'z' was originally a different letter now missing in English orthography which was pronounced roughly like the sound represented by 'ng'; Worcester/Wooster may be too much of an elision to skate by on the elision exception (Pron. "Woorster" becomes "Wooster"); Mainwaring suffers a vowel shift and de-emphasises the 'w' to become Manaring; but there are far fewer of these problematic borderline calls than there are of names which are included here solely because the person who added them is ignorant of English pronunciation rules or those of the languages from where many of the names came - there is no excuse for including any of Anthony, Caleb, Chloe, Chloë, Geoffrey, Freda, Hermione, Hugh, Isaac, Isla, Liza, Malachi, Michael, Naomi, Näomi, Penelope, Phoebe, Sonny, Thomas, Vaughan, Vaughn, Wynonna, Zachary, or Zoe, all of which would be pronounced correctly by most native speakers of English on first sight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.116.98.136 ( talk) 02:34, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
Why don't we make a table for the names and add a section for how the names would be spelled if the followed pronunciation conventions of the respective country? Also can we have a more catchy and recognizable name for this thing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zontas ( talk • contribs) 02:57, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
I want to add the Canberra, Australia suburb "Fairbairn", [1] that is pronounced "Fair-burn". This site [2] pronounces it more like "Fair-bear-n", but locals say it like "Fair-burn". How do I support/reference the local pronunciation? And can someone help me with the IPA pronunciation? Thanks. peterl ( talk) 16:48, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
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I wonder if "counterintuitive" is a POV statement and is wholly dependent on what is familiar to the reader or to a certain group of readers, which is not WP:GLOBAL. It may be counterintuitive for a native English speaker, but might not be counterintuitive for, say, a Brit vs. an American, or for a Scot or a Native American, or a latinophone or francophone, or anyone familiar with the linguistic origin of the name.
I suggest "List of names in English-speaking countries that are frequently mispronounced." The word "frequently" isn't perfect, but it's less contentious than "counterintuitive" which is much more subjective.
Honestly the page structure of this meta-list is problematic. Place names and surnames are lumped together, as are place names of different countries who speak English differently. IMO better to separate place names geographically and first/last names ethnically/by heritage.
- Keith D. Tyler ¶ 23:03, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
A number of the entries in this article are not really English (language), they are transliterations of names in other languages (First Nations, Hindi, Irish, Welsh etc). It seems to me that they really should not be listed because it is entirely unreasonable to expect them to be pronounced according to the conventions of English. Does anyone have a convincing argument for their retention? -- John Maynard Friedman ( talk) 17:37, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
I know there's a place with that name already in the UK, so it might be covered there, but there's also a similarly spelt city in Ontario pronounced "Chat-Ham", which is counterintuitive to the "th" sound. And I've heard someone refer to it as "Chay-tham", which is incorrect. Infinity Project ( talk) 06:44, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
Colin Powell was not a “politician.” He never ran for any office. 2601:183:4880:EFC0:180A:1C5A:2980:C71A ( talk) 17:23, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
I fixed all respellings to make sure they are all correct, including adding another s to not make a ‘z’ sound and h after g before e, i, and y. Güiseppi669 ( talk) 09:07, 28 April 2024 (UTC)