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Archive 1 |
Not sure of the Allele nomenclature in the Jefferson article, so I listed the more common nomenclature from the Famous DNA link. If anyone has more background on the Nature article nomenclature it would be a nice addition. Sandwich Eater 00:58, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that the last three allele values given by the report in The Genetic Legacy of the Mongols are different from those for the corresponding genetic loci according to the report by Family Tree DNA. The table for the values from The Genetic Legacy of the Mongols gives DYS 389I = 10, DYS 389II = 26, and DYS 392 = 1, whereas the table for the values from Family Tree DNA gives DYS 389i = 13, DYS 389ii = 29, and DYS 392 = 11. Could anyone clarify the source of this discrepancy? I would appreciate it! Ebizur 00:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Felt the need to add that these are the result of thousands of tests and probably do indicate the results close to the famous ancestors'. After 10,000 or 100,000 tests the results may be refined or disproved. Stamboul 13:26, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not clear on why the Niall haplogroup needs to be elaborated on with regard to the proportion of R1b in Ireland. R1b is common throughout western Europe, and indeed throughout Atlantic europe. The population density of R1b in Ireland has nothing to do with Niall. It is just stated in the article because it is a fact, Nial happened to be R1b. There is no claim that this is a unique haplogroup in Ireland, and there is no claim that all irishmen are related to Nial. R1b is a common haplogroup in western Europe. Sandwich Eater 14:10, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
SD :"I'm not clear on why the Niall haplogroup needs to be elaborated on with regard to the proportion of R1b in Ireland."
N: ok. Nasz 03:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Warren Buffett's ten-page DNA report, which he shared with Fortune, also revealed that his paternal ancestors hail from northern Scandinavia, while his mother's side most likely has roots in Iberia or Estonia. [1]
They're obviously talking about haplogroups here, (which is confirmed at the 23andme site) which paternal line is common in Scandinavia but I1? Unless it is a particular haplotype of R1a or R1b? Was more released in Fortune and does anybody have the information? Nagelfar ( talk) 08:34, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
picture caption "nuclear reactor used in the experiment on samples of Napoleon's DNA" Well it seems they've fiddled with Napoleons DNA but didn't extrapolate any genetic genealogical information. Though maybe it exists on file somewhere? Nagelfar ( talk) 22:21, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I believe the old article name is more inclusive, that is, "list of genetic results derived from historical and famous figures." - with more testing companies like deCODEme & 23&me focusing on autosomal DNA discoveries, the article would have more provenance if it included such potential results, as if a historic individual was somehow discovered to have the CCR5 deletion via tested lock of hair, or something along those lines. Nagelfar ( talk) 05:49, 29 June 2008 (UTC) I believe any male relative can be tested through a lock of hair for haplotype such as hitler etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.127.241.144 ( talk) 04:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
when i click "Ysearch: GF44B" in "Joseph Stalin", i am ending up in "Genghis Khan" in Ysearch page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.122.218.214 ( talk) 14:07, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
These seem shaky, for instance, a blog/thread about ancestry of the Wright Brothers. Hardly valid sources.-- Parkwells ( talk) 20:36, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
-- Unfortunately, now it's the new science and mostly conducted this way, unofficially. Still, otherwise we would't have had ANY sources.
Alexei Zyryanov, aide to Emir Sergei, the Head of UAE Russian Colony —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.24.106.42 ( talk) 03:39, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Probably from the children of some "relative" who married an East African. 184.96.250.190 ( talk) 20:10, 5 July 2011 (UTC) Is not real - they say its samples from close relatives - but even that has been questioned (Its guess work at best). Moxy ( talk) 20:22, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
As per many previous talk Hitler was removed - "newspapers and popular magazines are generally not considered reliable sources for scientific and technical matters" - as per Wikipedia:Reliable source examples#Physical sciences, mathematics and medicine
I think this should be removed, this was not directly Hitler's DNA and it does not name 39 relatives in the article you are just taking their word for it, and the DNA found is not even exclusive to Africans or Jews.-- 14Adrian ( talk) 01:23, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
A new editor keeps inserting trivial information in this section, which was originally entitled with honorifics, and which, appeared to me on first glance to be another, non-notable person. Can some neutral editor communicate with this newbie about the trivial matters that he keep inserting into the article? Bearian ( talk) 00:54, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
any of dna test of Atatürk ? peace 77.3.103.209 ( talk) 19:51, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
The article is obviously biased. The author exhibits an prejudice unbecoming to science and Wikipedia. It seems agenda driven.
There seems to be an author bias against the main haplogroups for Europe: R1b, R1a and I. The principle author favors listing only Middle Eastern haplogroups: E1, and J. J2 are non-Semitic Turkish types, J1 are Semites who followed out of Africa, and Ei is the last of those who came from African into the Mediterranean.
The author gave an embarrassing amount of space to un-notables such as present-day Jewish TV news personalities, sharing space on the list along with true notable such as King Tut. Yet, when King Tut is revealed as R1b, the author reports the result as "unscientific."
When other R1b notables are listed, such as Charles Darwin and President John Quincy Adams, the author holds their R1b in doubt, adding the phrase repeatedly, "assuming paternity being as the family argues." Who's arguing? Their rather recent Puritan and Victorian family pedigrees should have far more certainty than most names on this list. After all it was a grandson tested for Darwin, which is recent and pretty reliable as it only allows for 1 falsely accorded paternity. Yet, the author lists all Jews, J2, and E1 without the phrase, "assuming paternity being as the family argues" even though their sample is known to be in doubt, such as Hitler, whose DNA probably cannot be ascertained as his skull fragment was never verified as it was reported that a body double had been burned instead of Hitler.
Oddly, the author mentions Queen Victoria who is E1 and two J1 kings, but fails to relay the well-known factoid that R1b is the most prevalent haplotype for the royal houses of Europe.
Conspicuously absent are numerous very well-known and publicized R1b results of notable Europeans such as: 1. The Royal House of Hapsburg of the Austro-Hungarian Empire also has well publicized R1b results. The Habsburg Royal line provided all of the Holy Roman Emperors (except one) from the 1440s until Napoleon. Habsburgs ruled over France, Austria, Germany, Austria, Spain, Tuscany, Parma, Milan, etc. 2. King Charles Stuart as well as King James I and James II were R1b of the Stuart Royal line of England and Scotland. James III is U5b. 3. Other English Kings that are known to be R1b include: Edward VII, George V, Edward VIII, and George VI. 4. The current royals of England are R1b: Prince Philip (Duke of Edinburgh), Prince Charles, Prince William, Prince Harry and baby Prince George, etc. 5. The line of Tsar Nicholas II of Russia and all in the Romanov dynasty are well-publicized R1b. 6. The Kings of Belgium, Kings of Portugal, Kings of Bulgaria, Kings of Poland, and the Grand Dukes of Lithuania are also R1b. 7. All twenty Kings of Denmark since Christian I (reigned from 1448) belonged to haplogroup R1b. 8. Numerous kings of Norway, Sweden were haplogroup I. 9. The Kings of Greece were R1b. 10. The mtDNA of the kings and queens of Poland were H,T2, and N1b. 11. The Prussian astronomer who discovered the rules for planetary motion, Nicolaus Copernicus is R1b too. 12. James D. Watson who discovered the DNA helix is R1b. Also, biologist Craig Ventor is R1b. etc. 13. There is a long list of US Presidents who are R1b, but the author holds that in doubt. How can that be suspicious or surprising when the U.S. was founded by Protestant Northern Europeans where R1b dominates?
It appears the author is seeking relatives of Middle Eastern origin to find a "Chosen People" and resents notables if they are of European stock. This might account for the odd list of Jewish and J and E European entries and contempt of R and I.
However, as a note to the tribal-minded person who might have compiled this list, 95% of world Jewry today are Ashkenazi of Eastern European ancestry with a founding base of non-European Y-DNA slave traders, and are more correctly characterized as a mostly European blooded people who subscribe to the Hebrew religion due to their Judaized Khazar ancestry, but do not actually descend from ancient Semitic Hebrews. Being Jewish without being of the original tribe, is contrary to the sense of tribe fostered in Jewish teachings, so it is hard to accept, and angers many Jews.
Furthermore, not many famous people, Jews or non-Jews, are to be found in Eastern Europe, where most of our Ashkenazi lived before WW2. Unfortunately, few notable people come from Eastern Europe, as Eastern Europeans were not central participants in Western Civilization or another major Western civilizations. (However, it was Eastern European Jews who are became famous for instigating the Russian Revolution headed by Lenin and Trotsky etc. and the German Ashkenazi also seized Bavaria and claimed it as a communist state.)
The majority of famous Ashkenazi Jews became successful when they lived in Western Civilization, not Eastern Europe, or the Middle East. The best thing that ever happened to the Ashkenazi was living in America, where the American system fostered success that Jews never found in Eastern Europe. Enlightenment and Protestant values, law, science and ethics is the fertile field where Jews could best advance themselves.
Those Jews most likely to descend from the actual tribe are those who remained in Palestine or moved to Rome in the 1st century. Most of our Ashkenazi are not likely to be descended from Abrahamic Hebrews or even Roman Jews. Since many Jews were often converted or enslaved they are thus very mixed. Most Jews today are from European or Turkic non-Semitic haplogoups. Ashkenazi also share no Y-DNA link with Sephardim, who were also converts to Judaism in order to engage in the slave trade of Celts of Spain to sell to Muslims south for 700 years.
This is at odds with our beloved tribal Hebrew mythology and some feel it puts into question the "right of return" to Judea. However, Jews should be proud of their non-Jewish origin in spite of the traditional pressure to identity as a blood tribe.
The centuries of extreme tribalism has only resulted in negative consequences for Jews. Acting "as a tribe", creating Jewish financial and other cartels at the expense of others, and being subversive within a host nation, is what has directly contributed to the expulsion of Jews from every nation they have lived. Let us not repeat that past. In the end our Jewish pursuit of a "we-win, you-lose" tribal identity has proved to be self-destructive for Jewry.
Trying to convince people they descend from Abraham when they do not, enslaves innocent people to a false identity and is the same sort of tribalism that, in excess, has has only wrought "self-destruction upon our houses." A Chosen People agenda brought disaster to Jews who were evicted from nearly every nation they lived for millennia for usury, tribal business cartels and sedition, in the end, to their own detriment. Tribe is the organizing principle of the religion, but also its Achilles heel. So let's not promote further harm to Jews by encouraging a false sense of tribe that resulted in an historical Jewish incapacity to live with non-Jews.
We can all see that DNA has shows that Jews are not a genetically cohesive tribe. Not even close. They are extremely mixed, so the tribe foundation is no longer valid.
I have seen many contorted interpretations of these DNA studies to try to imply a more cohesive Hebrew tribe that no longer exists. It is also bad science. It only earns contempt from everyone except the innocent. It just makes other scientists and people resent and lose respect for "researchers" who massage or interpret data to mislead the public to prove a path to Abraham and the notion of a Chosen People and to discredit Europeans or others from their true lineage or accomplishments in order to make it appear as though Jews are more special than they are.
People are curious as to who they really are, and no one really wants Judaism or any other exaggeration pushed on them. The term Jew today has no more meaning to indicate a tribe who descends from Abraham. They may behave as a tribe, but the blood link is not there; less so perhaps since Jews traveled more, they who slavers, many converted, and they have more variable DNA contributions.
We also see historically that Hebraic Jews who remained in Palestine were mostly forcibly converted to Islam, and Hebraic Jews who moved to Rome often eventually converted to Roman paganism and later, Christianity. The first Christians were blood Jews.
J1 are Semitic, such as Arabs etc. J2 and E1 are not Semitic. Modern Lebanese of E1 see themselves as white and non-Semitic. They see the Semites as J1 Arabs and Hebrews who entered their region.
Because we now see that the vast majority of today's Jews do NOT descend from Semites, renders the phrase anti-Semitic obsolete in reference to today's mostly non-Semtic blooded Jews.
Jews very often have predominantly European DNA. They show non-Semitic J2 Turkic and E1 Mediterranean ancestry too. Few Jews today exhibit J1 Semitic ancestry today, but they can be proud of their non-Semtic and European heritage too. Hebrews built no major civilization, but their European ancestors produced Western Civilization. The Chinese and others, also built amazing civilizations.
Many Jewish writers and organizations are re-defining what it means to be a Jew as a result of the understanding of non-Semitic tribes dominating Jewry today. If the definition remains Semitic of direct Hebrew origin nearly all Jews today would be excluded from the "tribe". — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScienceSense ( talk • contribs) 18:21, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
This whole section has been removed twice, most recently here. Is there any consensus that we should keep in sections about the DNA from bodies purporting to be legendary people? Bearian ( talk) 17:33, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
The discussion below regarding edits commencing on 3 November 2013 was moved here from my personal talk page:
I think there was some confusion as to the edits I made on list of haplogroups of notable people, particularly the King Tut section. I couldn't fit it all in the edit summary so I've brought the discussion here. Your first edit was in regards to this sentence "After pressure to publish Tutankhamun's full DNA report to confirm his Y-DNA results, the researchers refused to respond." It is known that they purposely left out his Y-DNA results in the final report despite testing his Y-DNA (His Y-DNA results were publicly broadcasted when they were trying to determine if Akhenaten was his father). After the leak the researchers responded by calling it "unscientific" but did not deny the results were accurate (Since it was publicly broadcasted so they couldn't deny it) and also refused to further comment when they were asked to officially report his Y-DNA results.
You made a rv in your second edit, I removed that part because I didn't feel it was relevant to the article.
In your third edit you reverted this additional information I added "In December 2012 according to a genetic study conducted by the same researchers who decoded King Tutankhamun's DNA, found that." I thought this part was relevant because it showed that these particular researchers were willing to publish the Y-DNA results of the mummies, but possibly tried to censor King Tuts DNA results due to him having European ancestry.
In the fourth edit you removed the origin of R1b1a2 (R-M269) and E1b1a for an unknown reason. Let me know how we can settle this, thanks Anarchistdy ( talk) 09:12, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
"All my edits are clearly explained in my edit summaries (I broke it down carefully so there could be no confusion)" You attempted to explain them but I don't think they were justified.
I disagree that it falls into the contentforking category because it does conform to the Manual of Style for list and the first paragraph states. "On the other hand, as an article grows, editors often create summary-style spin-offs or new, linked article for related material. This is acceptable, and often encouraged, as a way of making articles clearer and easier to manage."
I read the deletion discussion and the overwhelming opinion was to keep the article, with suggestings to clean it up and remove some of the less notable people. My edit to the King Tut section was to make it more neutral because the entire section was trying to discredit those particular results just because the original researchers didn't publish the YDNA in the final report. As I said before his DNA testing was publicly broadcasted, and the camera showed a close up of the results which were R1b1a2 (R-M269) to 99.9% certainty (For comparison most of the results on this list claiming a certain YDNA are probably only around 80% certainty). The the only way the researchers could deny these results was if contamination occurred, which it clearly didn't since the same sample proved that Akhenaten was his father. Anarchistdy ( talk) 20:01, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
Fair point, so you want all mentions of the origin of a halotype removed from the article? Anarchistdy ( talk) 05:13, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
Since Genghis Khan is dead, his remains undiscovered, and his last verifiable descendant around a century dead and never DNA tested, the listing for his DNA can't be anything other than just a guess. It should be removed or clearly labelled as fanciful speculation. siafu 02:34, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Birger jarl, Edmund Rice used to be sourced with references as belonging to Y-HG I1, where'd they go? 66.96.79.217 ( talk) 19:32, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
A good level of sourcing for this article would be the kind of sources enumerated in the content guideline on reliable sources for articles on medical topics on Wikipedia. So far this list article is nowhere close to being well sourced. I'll check the article right now to apply WP:BLP here to remove any poorly sourced statements about living people--but the statements about dead people here really need to be much better sourced too. -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk, how I edit) 19:30, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
Louis XIV had haplogroup R1b and his direct descendant Louis XVI had haplogroup G-M201. How is this possible?
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v22/n5/abs/ejhg2013211a.html https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3992573/ 68.231.141.199 ( talk) 00:58, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
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The way the " mtDNA" and " Y-DNA" sections are separate on the page leads to many duplicate section headings, which makes linking awkward and error-prone. For example, the section about ancient samples of mtDNA would be linked to using List of haplogroups of historic people#Ancient samples, but the corresponding Y-DNA section would be linked to using List of haplogroups of historic people#Ancient samples 2 (a section heading that appears nowhere in the article itself). Similarly, Richard III's subsection under the "mtDNA" section would be linked to using List of haplogroups of historic people#Richard III of England, but his subsection under "Y-DNA" would be linked to using List of haplogroups of historic people#Richard III of England 2 (again, a section heading that appears nowhere on the page).
I therefore propose an "intrapage" merge of the mtDNA and Y-DNA sections, in which each person has a single section on the page, containing whatever mtDNA and Y-DNA information exist for that individual (either mtDNA or Y-DNA, or both). - dcljr ( talk) 07:22, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
I removed the Ashina clan subsection for three main reasons. 1) Bad sources. The first source uses antisemitic conspiracy and is clearly not an academic source. 2) There has been conflicting research showing the Ashina clan to be R1a (I can provide a source if needed. Finally, 3), the original (and from my understanding only) addition / contributor to the Ashina section was DragoniteLeopard. Who has a clear bias on things relating to Turkish history and has been banned long ago. Darokrithia ( talk) 00:41, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
It is extremely ridiculous to post such an interesting genetic relation as that of Adolf Hitler without the scientific source... 2A02:8108:9640:AC3:9C61:A929:C546:138F ( talk) 15:22, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
Why are you deleting Catherine the Great? She is very famous and she is only 11 generations away from queen Victoria. -- 85.249.40.129 @ Materialscientist: ( talk) 15:38, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
If anyone is interested, I found this [5]. The current source is hobbyist's website. Doug Weller talk 14:50, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Not sure of the Allele nomenclature in the Jefferson article, so I listed the more common nomenclature from the Famous DNA link. If anyone has more background on the Nature article nomenclature it would be a nice addition. Sandwich Eater 00:58, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that the last three allele values given by the report in The Genetic Legacy of the Mongols are different from those for the corresponding genetic loci according to the report by Family Tree DNA. The table for the values from The Genetic Legacy of the Mongols gives DYS 389I = 10, DYS 389II = 26, and DYS 392 = 1, whereas the table for the values from Family Tree DNA gives DYS 389i = 13, DYS 389ii = 29, and DYS 392 = 11. Could anyone clarify the source of this discrepancy? I would appreciate it! Ebizur 00:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Felt the need to add that these are the result of thousands of tests and probably do indicate the results close to the famous ancestors'. After 10,000 or 100,000 tests the results may be refined or disproved. Stamboul 13:26, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not clear on why the Niall haplogroup needs to be elaborated on with regard to the proportion of R1b in Ireland. R1b is common throughout western Europe, and indeed throughout Atlantic europe. The population density of R1b in Ireland has nothing to do with Niall. It is just stated in the article because it is a fact, Nial happened to be R1b. There is no claim that this is a unique haplogroup in Ireland, and there is no claim that all irishmen are related to Nial. R1b is a common haplogroup in western Europe. Sandwich Eater 14:10, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
SD :"I'm not clear on why the Niall haplogroup needs to be elaborated on with regard to the proportion of R1b in Ireland."
N: ok. Nasz 03:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Warren Buffett's ten-page DNA report, which he shared with Fortune, also revealed that his paternal ancestors hail from northern Scandinavia, while his mother's side most likely has roots in Iberia or Estonia. [1]
They're obviously talking about haplogroups here, (which is confirmed at the 23andme site) which paternal line is common in Scandinavia but I1? Unless it is a particular haplotype of R1a or R1b? Was more released in Fortune and does anybody have the information? Nagelfar ( talk) 08:34, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
picture caption "nuclear reactor used in the experiment on samples of Napoleon's DNA" Well it seems they've fiddled with Napoleons DNA but didn't extrapolate any genetic genealogical information. Though maybe it exists on file somewhere? Nagelfar ( talk) 22:21, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I believe the old article name is more inclusive, that is, "list of genetic results derived from historical and famous figures." - with more testing companies like deCODEme & 23&me focusing on autosomal DNA discoveries, the article would have more provenance if it included such potential results, as if a historic individual was somehow discovered to have the CCR5 deletion via tested lock of hair, or something along those lines. Nagelfar ( talk) 05:49, 29 June 2008 (UTC) I believe any male relative can be tested through a lock of hair for haplotype such as hitler etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.127.241.144 ( talk) 04:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
when i click "Ysearch: GF44B" in "Joseph Stalin", i am ending up in "Genghis Khan" in Ysearch page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.122.218.214 ( talk) 14:07, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
These seem shaky, for instance, a blog/thread about ancestry of the Wright Brothers. Hardly valid sources.-- Parkwells ( talk) 20:36, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
-- Unfortunately, now it's the new science and mostly conducted this way, unofficially. Still, otherwise we would't have had ANY sources.
Alexei Zyryanov, aide to Emir Sergei, the Head of UAE Russian Colony —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.24.106.42 ( talk) 03:39, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Probably from the children of some "relative" who married an East African. 184.96.250.190 ( talk) 20:10, 5 July 2011 (UTC) Is not real - they say its samples from close relatives - but even that has been questioned (Its guess work at best). Moxy ( talk) 20:22, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
As per many previous talk Hitler was removed - "newspapers and popular magazines are generally not considered reliable sources for scientific and technical matters" - as per Wikipedia:Reliable source examples#Physical sciences, mathematics and medicine
I think this should be removed, this was not directly Hitler's DNA and it does not name 39 relatives in the article you are just taking their word for it, and the DNA found is not even exclusive to Africans or Jews.-- 14Adrian ( talk) 01:23, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
A new editor keeps inserting trivial information in this section, which was originally entitled with honorifics, and which, appeared to me on first glance to be another, non-notable person. Can some neutral editor communicate with this newbie about the trivial matters that he keep inserting into the article? Bearian ( talk) 00:54, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
any of dna test of Atatürk ? peace 77.3.103.209 ( talk) 19:51, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
The article is obviously biased. The author exhibits an prejudice unbecoming to science and Wikipedia. It seems agenda driven.
There seems to be an author bias against the main haplogroups for Europe: R1b, R1a and I. The principle author favors listing only Middle Eastern haplogroups: E1, and J. J2 are non-Semitic Turkish types, J1 are Semites who followed out of Africa, and Ei is the last of those who came from African into the Mediterranean.
The author gave an embarrassing amount of space to un-notables such as present-day Jewish TV news personalities, sharing space on the list along with true notable such as King Tut. Yet, when King Tut is revealed as R1b, the author reports the result as "unscientific."
When other R1b notables are listed, such as Charles Darwin and President John Quincy Adams, the author holds their R1b in doubt, adding the phrase repeatedly, "assuming paternity being as the family argues." Who's arguing? Their rather recent Puritan and Victorian family pedigrees should have far more certainty than most names on this list. After all it was a grandson tested for Darwin, which is recent and pretty reliable as it only allows for 1 falsely accorded paternity. Yet, the author lists all Jews, J2, and E1 without the phrase, "assuming paternity being as the family argues" even though their sample is known to be in doubt, such as Hitler, whose DNA probably cannot be ascertained as his skull fragment was never verified as it was reported that a body double had been burned instead of Hitler.
Oddly, the author mentions Queen Victoria who is E1 and two J1 kings, but fails to relay the well-known factoid that R1b is the most prevalent haplotype for the royal houses of Europe.
Conspicuously absent are numerous very well-known and publicized R1b results of notable Europeans such as: 1. The Royal House of Hapsburg of the Austro-Hungarian Empire also has well publicized R1b results. The Habsburg Royal line provided all of the Holy Roman Emperors (except one) from the 1440s until Napoleon. Habsburgs ruled over France, Austria, Germany, Austria, Spain, Tuscany, Parma, Milan, etc. 2. King Charles Stuart as well as King James I and James II were R1b of the Stuart Royal line of England and Scotland. James III is U5b. 3. Other English Kings that are known to be R1b include: Edward VII, George V, Edward VIII, and George VI. 4. The current royals of England are R1b: Prince Philip (Duke of Edinburgh), Prince Charles, Prince William, Prince Harry and baby Prince George, etc. 5. The line of Tsar Nicholas II of Russia and all in the Romanov dynasty are well-publicized R1b. 6. The Kings of Belgium, Kings of Portugal, Kings of Bulgaria, Kings of Poland, and the Grand Dukes of Lithuania are also R1b. 7. All twenty Kings of Denmark since Christian I (reigned from 1448) belonged to haplogroup R1b. 8. Numerous kings of Norway, Sweden were haplogroup I. 9. The Kings of Greece were R1b. 10. The mtDNA of the kings and queens of Poland were H,T2, and N1b. 11. The Prussian astronomer who discovered the rules for planetary motion, Nicolaus Copernicus is R1b too. 12. James D. Watson who discovered the DNA helix is R1b. Also, biologist Craig Ventor is R1b. etc. 13. There is a long list of US Presidents who are R1b, but the author holds that in doubt. How can that be suspicious or surprising when the U.S. was founded by Protestant Northern Europeans where R1b dominates?
It appears the author is seeking relatives of Middle Eastern origin to find a "Chosen People" and resents notables if they are of European stock. This might account for the odd list of Jewish and J and E European entries and contempt of R and I.
However, as a note to the tribal-minded person who might have compiled this list, 95% of world Jewry today are Ashkenazi of Eastern European ancestry with a founding base of non-European Y-DNA slave traders, and are more correctly characterized as a mostly European blooded people who subscribe to the Hebrew religion due to their Judaized Khazar ancestry, but do not actually descend from ancient Semitic Hebrews. Being Jewish without being of the original tribe, is contrary to the sense of tribe fostered in Jewish teachings, so it is hard to accept, and angers many Jews.
Furthermore, not many famous people, Jews or non-Jews, are to be found in Eastern Europe, where most of our Ashkenazi lived before WW2. Unfortunately, few notable people come from Eastern Europe, as Eastern Europeans were not central participants in Western Civilization or another major Western civilizations. (However, it was Eastern European Jews who are became famous for instigating the Russian Revolution headed by Lenin and Trotsky etc. and the German Ashkenazi also seized Bavaria and claimed it as a communist state.)
The majority of famous Ashkenazi Jews became successful when they lived in Western Civilization, not Eastern Europe, or the Middle East. The best thing that ever happened to the Ashkenazi was living in America, where the American system fostered success that Jews never found in Eastern Europe. Enlightenment and Protestant values, law, science and ethics is the fertile field where Jews could best advance themselves.
Those Jews most likely to descend from the actual tribe are those who remained in Palestine or moved to Rome in the 1st century. Most of our Ashkenazi are not likely to be descended from Abrahamic Hebrews or even Roman Jews. Since many Jews were often converted or enslaved they are thus very mixed. Most Jews today are from European or Turkic non-Semitic haplogoups. Ashkenazi also share no Y-DNA link with Sephardim, who were also converts to Judaism in order to engage in the slave trade of Celts of Spain to sell to Muslims south for 700 years.
This is at odds with our beloved tribal Hebrew mythology and some feel it puts into question the "right of return" to Judea. However, Jews should be proud of their non-Jewish origin in spite of the traditional pressure to identity as a blood tribe.
The centuries of extreme tribalism has only resulted in negative consequences for Jews. Acting "as a tribe", creating Jewish financial and other cartels at the expense of others, and being subversive within a host nation, is what has directly contributed to the expulsion of Jews from every nation they have lived. Let us not repeat that past. In the end our Jewish pursuit of a "we-win, you-lose" tribal identity has proved to be self-destructive for Jewry.
Trying to convince people they descend from Abraham when they do not, enslaves innocent people to a false identity and is the same sort of tribalism that, in excess, has has only wrought "self-destruction upon our houses." A Chosen People agenda brought disaster to Jews who were evicted from nearly every nation they lived for millennia for usury, tribal business cartels and sedition, in the end, to their own detriment. Tribe is the organizing principle of the religion, but also its Achilles heel. So let's not promote further harm to Jews by encouraging a false sense of tribe that resulted in an historical Jewish incapacity to live with non-Jews.
We can all see that DNA has shows that Jews are not a genetically cohesive tribe. Not even close. They are extremely mixed, so the tribe foundation is no longer valid.
I have seen many contorted interpretations of these DNA studies to try to imply a more cohesive Hebrew tribe that no longer exists. It is also bad science. It only earns contempt from everyone except the innocent. It just makes other scientists and people resent and lose respect for "researchers" who massage or interpret data to mislead the public to prove a path to Abraham and the notion of a Chosen People and to discredit Europeans or others from their true lineage or accomplishments in order to make it appear as though Jews are more special than they are.
People are curious as to who they really are, and no one really wants Judaism or any other exaggeration pushed on them. The term Jew today has no more meaning to indicate a tribe who descends from Abraham. They may behave as a tribe, but the blood link is not there; less so perhaps since Jews traveled more, they who slavers, many converted, and they have more variable DNA contributions.
We also see historically that Hebraic Jews who remained in Palestine were mostly forcibly converted to Islam, and Hebraic Jews who moved to Rome often eventually converted to Roman paganism and later, Christianity. The first Christians were blood Jews.
J1 are Semitic, such as Arabs etc. J2 and E1 are not Semitic. Modern Lebanese of E1 see themselves as white and non-Semitic. They see the Semites as J1 Arabs and Hebrews who entered their region.
Because we now see that the vast majority of today's Jews do NOT descend from Semites, renders the phrase anti-Semitic obsolete in reference to today's mostly non-Semtic blooded Jews.
Jews very often have predominantly European DNA. They show non-Semitic J2 Turkic and E1 Mediterranean ancestry too. Few Jews today exhibit J1 Semitic ancestry today, but they can be proud of their non-Semtic and European heritage too. Hebrews built no major civilization, but their European ancestors produced Western Civilization. The Chinese and others, also built amazing civilizations.
Many Jewish writers and organizations are re-defining what it means to be a Jew as a result of the understanding of non-Semitic tribes dominating Jewry today. If the definition remains Semitic of direct Hebrew origin nearly all Jews today would be excluded from the "tribe". — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScienceSense ( talk • contribs) 18:21, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
This whole section has been removed twice, most recently here. Is there any consensus that we should keep in sections about the DNA from bodies purporting to be legendary people? Bearian ( talk) 17:33, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
The discussion below regarding edits commencing on 3 November 2013 was moved here from my personal talk page:
I think there was some confusion as to the edits I made on list of haplogroups of notable people, particularly the King Tut section. I couldn't fit it all in the edit summary so I've brought the discussion here. Your first edit was in regards to this sentence "After pressure to publish Tutankhamun's full DNA report to confirm his Y-DNA results, the researchers refused to respond." It is known that they purposely left out his Y-DNA results in the final report despite testing his Y-DNA (His Y-DNA results were publicly broadcasted when they were trying to determine if Akhenaten was his father). After the leak the researchers responded by calling it "unscientific" but did not deny the results were accurate (Since it was publicly broadcasted so they couldn't deny it) and also refused to further comment when they were asked to officially report his Y-DNA results.
You made a rv in your second edit, I removed that part because I didn't feel it was relevant to the article.
In your third edit you reverted this additional information I added "In December 2012 according to a genetic study conducted by the same researchers who decoded King Tutankhamun's DNA, found that." I thought this part was relevant because it showed that these particular researchers were willing to publish the Y-DNA results of the mummies, but possibly tried to censor King Tuts DNA results due to him having European ancestry.
In the fourth edit you removed the origin of R1b1a2 (R-M269) and E1b1a for an unknown reason. Let me know how we can settle this, thanks Anarchistdy ( talk) 09:12, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
"All my edits are clearly explained in my edit summaries (I broke it down carefully so there could be no confusion)" You attempted to explain them but I don't think they were justified.
I disagree that it falls into the contentforking category because it does conform to the Manual of Style for list and the first paragraph states. "On the other hand, as an article grows, editors often create summary-style spin-offs or new, linked article for related material. This is acceptable, and often encouraged, as a way of making articles clearer and easier to manage."
I read the deletion discussion and the overwhelming opinion was to keep the article, with suggestings to clean it up and remove some of the less notable people. My edit to the King Tut section was to make it more neutral because the entire section was trying to discredit those particular results just because the original researchers didn't publish the YDNA in the final report. As I said before his DNA testing was publicly broadcasted, and the camera showed a close up of the results which were R1b1a2 (R-M269) to 99.9% certainty (For comparison most of the results on this list claiming a certain YDNA are probably only around 80% certainty). The the only way the researchers could deny these results was if contamination occurred, which it clearly didn't since the same sample proved that Akhenaten was his father. Anarchistdy ( talk) 20:01, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
Fair point, so you want all mentions of the origin of a halotype removed from the article? Anarchistdy ( talk) 05:13, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
Since Genghis Khan is dead, his remains undiscovered, and his last verifiable descendant around a century dead and never DNA tested, the listing for his DNA can't be anything other than just a guess. It should be removed or clearly labelled as fanciful speculation. siafu 02:34, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Birger jarl, Edmund Rice used to be sourced with references as belonging to Y-HG I1, where'd they go? 66.96.79.217 ( talk) 19:32, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
A good level of sourcing for this article would be the kind of sources enumerated in the content guideline on reliable sources for articles on medical topics on Wikipedia. So far this list article is nowhere close to being well sourced. I'll check the article right now to apply WP:BLP here to remove any poorly sourced statements about living people--but the statements about dead people here really need to be much better sourced too. -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk, how I edit) 19:30, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
Louis XIV had haplogroup R1b and his direct descendant Louis XVI had haplogroup G-M201. How is this possible?
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v22/n5/abs/ejhg2013211a.html https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3992573/ 68.231.141.199 ( talk) 00:58, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
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The way the " mtDNA" and " Y-DNA" sections are separate on the page leads to many duplicate section headings, which makes linking awkward and error-prone. For example, the section about ancient samples of mtDNA would be linked to using List of haplogroups of historic people#Ancient samples, but the corresponding Y-DNA section would be linked to using List of haplogroups of historic people#Ancient samples 2 (a section heading that appears nowhere in the article itself). Similarly, Richard III's subsection under the "mtDNA" section would be linked to using List of haplogroups of historic people#Richard III of England, but his subsection under "Y-DNA" would be linked to using List of haplogroups of historic people#Richard III of England 2 (again, a section heading that appears nowhere on the page).
I therefore propose an "intrapage" merge of the mtDNA and Y-DNA sections, in which each person has a single section on the page, containing whatever mtDNA and Y-DNA information exist for that individual (either mtDNA or Y-DNA, or both). - dcljr ( talk) 07:22, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
I removed the Ashina clan subsection for three main reasons. 1) Bad sources. The first source uses antisemitic conspiracy and is clearly not an academic source. 2) There has been conflicting research showing the Ashina clan to be R1a (I can provide a source if needed. Finally, 3), the original (and from my understanding only) addition / contributor to the Ashina section was DragoniteLeopard. Who has a clear bias on things relating to Turkish history and has been banned long ago. Darokrithia ( talk) 00:41, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
It is extremely ridiculous to post such an interesting genetic relation as that of Adolf Hitler without the scientific source... 2A02:8108:9640:AC3:9C61:A929:C546:138F ( talk) 15:22, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
Why are you deleting Catherine the Great? She is very famous and she is only 11 generations away from queen Victoria. -- 85.249.40.129 @ Materialscientist: ( talk) 15:38, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
If anyone is interested, I found this [5]. The current source is hobbyist's website. Doug Weller talk 14:50, 2 May 2022 (UTC)