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In all fairness, we should have a famous heterosexual people page. No need to be biased against heterosexual people. I fail to see how pointing out someone's sexual orientation adds or subtracts credibility or accomplishment. Explictly pointing out someone's homosexuality does little to encourage everyone to treat others without bias. It tends to encourage special treatment as if homosexuality is some kind of handicap. I think it is not a handicap.
RESPONSE: Without being too biased or having a non impartial point of view, I will explain it to you as such:
Because homosexuals, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered persons are often discriminated against (to the point of violence, murder, exclusion in society;) beacuse they are often told that they are worthless, lower than human life, disgusting and invaluable members of society; because they have to fight to bear heard and visible in the world (something that has become less obvious to non-homosexuals in the year 2002, but is no less true.) This is why they deserve special recognition in something of this nature.
Every child or teenager who is questioning his or her own sexuality can see a list of people who have identified as gay, and can then look at those people's accomplishments and say "Look! There is a diverse group of men and women (and everyone in between) who have accomplished so much! I am a worthy human being. Worthy of respect. Worthy of success. Worthy of the right to exist."
Heterosexual children, barring their own diverse potential to fall into other minority categories, and who no doubt go through just as many strifes and identity struggles, do not go through these struggles in particular. And that is just one of the many reasons why this listing should exist. -EB-
Of course not, but we can sure get it out of the closet and into mainstream media, casual office conversation, Thanksgiving-with-the-family chatter, everyday scenes in parks and airports, hospital visits, etc, etc, etc (Hell, I expect you know the drill). And for that matter, get it out of the teen suicide statistics http://isd.usc.edu/~retter/suicstats.html
(i'm sure there are countless more)
Three or four, at least! :-)
But seriously, there's a problem here with "claimed", "suspected", "reputed", etc.
- I'm thinking specifically of
Shakespeare, for example.
(Actually a page of "People who might have been GLB" would probably be just as long!
Well Oscar Wilde, for example, certaintly was gay. -- Seems to be adequate evidence in his case, yes. :-) -- Most modern authors treat Sappho as being lesbian or bisexual (in fact, she is the origin of the word lesbian) -- I knew that! :-) She was also married and had at least one kid. --, but some are not so sure of this.
Many also question the validity of applying terms like 'homosexual' or 'bisexual' to people who lived centuries before these terms were even invented. Some think this is trying to fit the sexuality of the past into the mold of modern sexuality, which some think won't work. But then a lot of these people deny that anyone is really gay or straight anyway. (I am talking here of course of queer theory.) -- SJK
Well, how about Shakespeare? How about Leonardo da Vinci? How about J. Edgar Hoover? How about a certain famous actress and director?
You see what a kettle of fish this is. (Of course, nothing new about this "problem"!)
Dmerrill, thanks very much for your contributions. Why should "who to put on this list" be a dead issue? (I have my own ideas on this, interested in hearing yours.)
I object not to the list or the wording (actually, I take that back. I object to all the lists of Famous buddhists, famous glbt, or famous Scorpios, come to that matter), but to the concept. You admit on the main page that the concept gay lesbian and bisexual is controverted, fluid, and difficult, but you continue to use it to identify people. I think that's not a good idea. --MichaelTinkler
I'm with you, Michael. My take has been to show how absurd the whole idea is. (Shining light in the darkness, if you get my theological drift. :-) I updated the Biographical Listing page to expose the other silly lists. <>< tbc
Article says:
But it is possible for someone to be homosexual and never have a romantic relationship with a person of the same gender, or even to never have sex with one. And one the other hand, a single relationship with a member of the same sex doesn't mean they are homosexual or bisexual either. It could have been just an odd situation, not at all definining their identity.... Maybe we should just say that "these people are commonly claimed to have been homosexual or bisexual, with various degrees of evidence to support the claim." Then we don't have to judge controversial claims or borderline cases. -- SJK
I like the list because I find it interesting. I agree that defining who belongs on such a list is problematic. Can we try to agree on a definition that is npov and also practical?
I really like SJK's suggested guideline because it is npov, and it's simple and direct, and it avoids any possibility of libel accusations. Saying:
seems to work best IMHO. Any arguments why this is insufficient? Let's try to come to an agreement, as we always seem to do on Wikipedia. -- Dmerrill
O.K., this list has already grown in EXACTLY the way that all these 'Famous' lists grow, and I'm going to insert my usual whine. Chastity Bono would not get an entry in Wikipedia until *I* got a bigoraphical entry in Wikipedia except that she is out and the daughter of two (particularly horrific!) people we've all heard of. Candace Gingrich is even less relevant today than Chastity, because at least Cher keeps grinding out what passes for dance music. These people are not all gblt by any reasonable defintion, nor are they all famous. This is now just a list of folks, and hence somewhat irrelevant. If you want to make a biographical listing for each of these people, have at it. --MichaelTinkler
I am considering starting a list of famous red-haired people, and one on famous spectacle-wearers, and another on well-known stammerers, and freckle-nosed people, and notorious smokers, and nose-pickers, and......I am very much against these kinds of lists. One BIG vote for removal. It does not serve any informational purpose. If relevant, a person's sexual orientation should be included in his/her biography and nowhere else.
Zundark, I'm glad you tend to agree we need to remove this page, but you refer to an argument without any support in the
article on bisexuality. I first want to see what answer comes up the question about proof for this allegation. It seems to me an unbelievably high figure. But I agree with you that the argument on top is one more reason to do away with this list. It specifies people with a quality within their personalities, that's what bothers me.
Robert, you mention a pastoral argument. You have a point that young people with homophobic ideas should be able find something on this Wikipedia to change their biased feelings into more understanding of something that is alien to them. And I am also for a route along wiki articles which will help them, plus young, scared gay people in-the-closet to find the right information, if that's what we want. But role-models? Do they get to know and appreciate those people for who they are when they know the bare fact that they're gay and famous for something? Doesn't convince me, really. I don't want to whine, but still vote for removal.
I didn't realise when I started this list how much controversy it would cause! :) I thought the list might be informative from the point of view of GLB history, which some people seriously study. While it might be useful in "educating homophobic teenagers", that wasn't my idea, and I don't think it should be the main focus of the article.
Also, there is an obvious reason why we could have this list and not a "list of famous heterosexuals". A list of famous heterosexuals would be way too long, and ultimately boring. Who really cares if some particular person is straight -- nothing non-ordinary about that. OTOH, that someone was GLB can be an interesting piece of information, especially with reference to the very famous and long dead (someone being GLB today is a lot less interesting, because modern society, at least in the West, is much more tolerant of it). -- SJK
A proposal: if it is true (which I still doubt) that someone was GLB can be an interesting piece of information, then it is only true when this piece of information sheds light on historical developments of the relationship society-gay/lesbian people, or on the general self-image of gays and lesbians. I can imagine that for instance the controversy around Oscar Wilde caused a significant change, or he at least caused great ripples in society those days. It would be worth to mention his homosexuality with the accompanying story. There will undoubtly be other examples. We could perhaps refracture this page into something really infomative and relevant. But to mention each and every GL person of fame just in order to have a list, just in order to be as complete as possible, just to satisfy people's curiosity, or for other quite superficial (don't take this personally) reasons, what good does that do?
Well yes, at least in Oscar Wilde's life anyway: he was executed for it.
Ak! Hard labor! Who am I thinking of?....
IMHO, I'd like to see this page remain. I've read arguments to the contrary, those being:
If it is, then how about changing it to
and allowing evidence supporting and refuting to be recorded.
I agree that this list (or any other wikipedia article) should not be a propaganda tool and should retain a NPOV. Further, I'd like to see this evolve into an article(s) containing why those on the list are thought/not-thought to be by some. But there should not need to be much justification as to why a particular topic belongs in Wikipedia. But let's keep the article. sfmontyo
Marie Antoinette?!! - montréalais
Moved:
If you check the page, you'll see that he was accused and acquitted. Without evidence, I think his mention should not be on the list. Feel free to put it back if you disagree. -- Ed Poor
Looks like there's a tug-of-war over King David & Jonathan. Sex & religion, hard to see why THIS is contentious... While I wouldn't put them on a list of "famous gay lesbian or bisexual people", certainly SOME people would, largely on the basis of 2 Samuel 1:26 (RSV) "I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant have you been to me; your love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women. ". Slim evidence, but they do belong on a list of those for whom at least "some people believe there is evidence the person was gay, lesbian or bisexual", which appears to be the concensus for what this list is. I vaguely recall much being made of them in Boswell's book on same-sex unions in the Middle Ages. Someone else 06:54 Sep 12, 2002 (UTC)
On the Biblical David being considered to be bisexual - actually, I was just reverting what appeared to be a pretty random deletion when I restored him to this list, since I thought that this tidbit was common knowledge. Nonetheless, a 5 second Google revealed some clear views on King David's sexuality, based on biblical texts: [1] [2]
I'm surprised that this is news to anybody, to be honest. Jacob
There are a number of reasons why David being gay is a problem. The reason he is thought to be gay has to do with the relationship between him and Jonathon. Any scholar of that time period can verify that such a relationship was purely one of friendship. All their actions would mean friendship. In fact if it was a relationship that was not based on friendship, such an action would be greatly frowned on. Men were not permitted to kiss their own wives in public. *Only* family (i.e. brother and sister) was permitted to show affection to each other in public. Another is that the Hebrew law forbid the act as it did adultery. The punishment was stoning. Yet God only sent a prophet to condemn him about adultery. There are not other situations in his entire life where he could be considered gay. This is only one example and only when interpreted in the light of modern times can we come to that conclusions, that is, only when we don't understand their culture correctly. It should be noted that this is an opinion, as there are two opposite views and it is clear that the issue is debatable. It should be noted as an opinion on the subject page at *minimum*. -- Ram-Man
Some more thoughts:
-- Ram-Man
Saul Bellow's Ravelstein contains a character said to be based on Bloom, and at least one advocate argues that Bloom, like the character who died of AIDS, must have been gay. Should we include Allan Bloom, on the strength of an article in a gay publication claiming him because of his resemblance to a character in a novel? -- Ed Poor
I vacuumed this out of the article, because there's not enough evidence.
Apparently he had a close friendship with another bachelor, but if he was gay he took the secret with him to the grave. Of course, from a civil rights point of view, he may have been a "cock-sucker", but that's a figure of speech. -- Ed Poor
The big allegation was that he was a transvestite, the closet gay thing just got added on due to his relationship with Tolson. One woman quoted in Anthony Summers' , Official and Confidential: The Secret Life of J. Edgar Hoover claimed to have seen Hoover in at least two separate and fetching outfits. Those brave enough may want to take a look at an artist's conception: http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/oliphant/vc007266.jpg In general I think the concensus is that the testimony is unconvincing, and the idea of J. Edgar playing Aunt Bea disconcerting... Someone else
I have trouble with the title being "Famous gay lesbian or bisexual people" and the note that says that the people are not necessarily gay, only that some people think so. Which is it? The title should match. The word "Gay" is a loaded word, and a little disclaimer is not going to prevent misunderstanding. This list also has diminished purpose for me because I don't know who on the list was admittedly gay and who was possibly gay. These are important distinctions and based on the title of this article, only the former should be included. -- Ram-Man
You're comparing homosexuality with bestiality? Dangerous ground... - Khendon 15:33 Oct 11, 2002 (UTC)
Why not have a List of famous people who had sex with animals? After all, Every child or teenager who is questioning his or her own sexuality can see a list of people who have identified as having sex with animals, and can then look at those people's accomplishments and say "Look! There is a diverse group of men and women (and everyone in between) who have accomplished so much! I am a worthy human being. Worthy of respect. Worthy of success. Worthy of the right to exist." - -There is no need to distinguish those who admitted having sex with animals from those reputed to have done, as this "encyclopedia article" is there for the sole purpose of encouraging the self worth of those who have sex with animals. OK -here is a start. -
It was an unacceptable comment and it has been removed. It was derogatory towards homosexuals and the wikipedia is not a place where that will be allowed. For those reading this, someone spoofed the response at the top of this talk page by replacing the idea of being gay with of being into bestiality. Here is the difference:
To have an interest in bestiality is considered a mental health issue because it prohibits the human party involved from having healthy sexual relationships with other humans. Homosexuality has been clarified by the mental health community as being NON MENTAL-HEALTH RELATED, because adult homosexuals are able to have loving, healthy romantic and sexual relationships.
If you have a problem with homosexuality, don't take it here with your natty and rude comments. The fact remains that minority groups need role models, and that makes entries like this important.
The final word on the matter is: this entry is culturally important to homosexuals, and it will remain. In the civilized Western world, medical professionals believe homosexuality to be anon mental-health related issue. If you don't like homosexuality, and don't understand WHY this entry is important (despite the numerous repeated explainations from myself and others,) you will simply have to resign yourself to the fact that to many, it is, and so it will continue to be. -EB-
I know it is common among the gay community to call Susan B. Anthony as a lesbian (They like the association with a famous feminist), however I am not sure that this is true, as she never directly said so (though some believe her writings show that she was). In fact most people do not understand what she stood for. She would have hated modern feminism and more closely sided with Christian fundamentalists (oddly enough!). She opposed gay male relationships because she believed that it was the man's job to provide for woman and a gay relationship would mean that men were not doing so. The truth of everything surrounding her (including what I write) is debated, and she should not be included in a definitive listing. -- Ram-Man
Somehow this "list of" page has become a proxy for the debate on "whether homosexuality is good or bad or what". It took me a few days to realize this, and I apologize (particularly to Easter Bradford) for my insensitivity.
May I suggest that contributors with ideas on homosexuality and its mental health status or "morality" status join me in (a) looking for the relevant articles and updating them or (b) just dropping it. -- Ed Poor
Well JEEZ. Why can't it just be that simple? Why can't it just be "I don't think that this entry needs to exist;" "Well, *I* do, and here's why;" "Okay, I don't understand your why, but I acecpt and respect it. Fair enough." "Thank you."
It can't because people DON'T respect homosexuals in their right to exist, have their own culture and identify. But Ed, I appreciate your apology, although I as of yet haven't found any of your comments in particular to be offensive or off-basis. -EB-
Why was Gianni Versace removed? I'm no fashion expert, but I thought he was pretty uncontroversially gay. -- Camembert
Re
J. Edgar Hoover: We can guess or opine, but we don't really know. Our own page on him says, "Speculation that Hoover practiced homosexuality has never been confirmed with factual evidence." (Whatever that might be in this context). Comments?
Returning to J. Edgar Hoover; There is some suspicion the idea of Hoover as a transvestite was Soviet disinformation. Hoover, according to people who knew him, was heterosexual. But the evidence is weak one way or another, and it has become an urban legend. -- GABaker
I'm removing Hoover again - really, I've heard about his supposed transvestitism many times, but I'd never heard a suggestion he was gay until I saw him on this list a while ago. It'd be nice if people who want him on the list could at least cite some sort of evidence that he was gay. I'm also removing Franco, because this is the first I've heard of him being gay, and I don't believe there's any evidence that he was - again, a cite gets him back in the list. -- Camembert
I would like to propose the following:
1. Anyone who does not have an article should be removed from the list because there is no explanation of why they are on the list. If they don't warrant an article, they don't make the list
2. Anyone whose article does not explain why the person is throught to be queer, should be removed from the list.
3. That explanation in the case of living people should either be self-acknowledgement (see
Jesse Liberty) or should be reasonable documentation for a politically motivated
outing.
4. In the case of people no longer alive, there should be substantial historical evidence for inclusion.
5. The fact that the concepts of gay, lesbian and bisexual did not exist in the past is irrelevant. If there is good historical evidence that someone lived a homosexual or bisexual life, that person should be included
6. Let's stop arguing over whether the list itself is valuable; enough of us find that it is for many reasons including research.
7. The list should include anyone who is "not straight" -- that is lesbian, bisexual, homosexual, trangender, transsexual, intersex, etc. (I personally would change the name of the list to famous queer people, but I won't enter that debate here).
8. The person need not be an activist, just famous enough to otherwise warrant an article, and also queer as defined above.
9. Those who are interested in preserving the list should make a good faith effort to prune it carefully. Those who dislike the list should leave it alone and try not to look at it, why be aggravated?
Jliberty 23:45, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
I see someone's proposed yet another purge – anyone whose sexuality isnot mentioned elsewhere in Wikipedia will be wiped from the roles of the gay. But here's a scoop: Wikipedia systematically suppresses information about sexuality. When such mentions are added to articles, they are nearly immediately wiped out. And here's another scoop: Wikipedia is rather a poor source of information on who is/was gay. For that sort of information, one must look to other sources. So a purge based on using Wikipedia as the only source ought to be a complete non-starter.
Here's a counterproposal: if you see someone whom you think should not be on the list, do the necessary research outside of Wikipedia and determine if he or she belongs here or not. Document your search and make the appropriate deletions or additions to the list. Cite your sources. Act in good faith. - Outerlimits 07:12, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm suggesting that the editor who removed the word "gay" does not seem to have done so in order to supress information. And that no one has tried to add the word back in more than 16 months. So I'm suggesting that this may not be as serious an issue as you apparently believe that it is. This list is going to continue to have people added to it and removed from it. I'd rather that we have some criteris for deciding who stays and who goes. Your original counter-proposal did not contain a criteria other than the de facto "editor's judgement". Can you suggest an alternate criteria? Cheers, - Willmcw 04:57, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
Based on a spot check I'd guess that about one-third of the biographies have no mention of sexuality. Those entries will no longer be acceptable if the proposal has a consensus, including those that have been verified. For example, I've checked many of the entries over the past month, first in their wikibio and then on Google. I found that in many cases there are plenty of external sources on the matter, but none of those have been entered into our biographical articles. (Yes, I should have taken the extra 10 minutes to add it after checking.) If we simply delete the names from this list then we're losing information out of the encyclopedia. The most comprehensive solution might be to spam the talk pages of all the biographical articles with a note saying that the subject has an entry in this list, and that continued inclusion in the LGBT list depends on the contents of the bio, also mentioning the "disputed" section and the [category:LGBT persons]. Another option is to simply add the names that are removed to a list of "de-listed" entries on this talk page. (omitting the patently spurious additions). One way or another, we should find a way of implementing this proposal that avoids a mass deletion of material. Cheers, - Willmcw 01:25, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
As a test case, I've moved Marlon Brando to a new section (below). His extensive
bio does not mention anything about his bisexuality and does discuss his various wives. In my opinion (and based on my proposal) he either should be moved off the GLBT list or his bisexuality should be documented in some way.
Jliberty 11:09, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, there is real risk of heterosexism and even homophobia contributing to the desire to cut into this list. On the other hand, there is gossip about people being queer based on stereotypes about behavior or appearance that does as much harm as presuming someone is straight because they don't meet the stereotype.
That said, I'd be happy to revise the proposal to say that rather than removing someone from the list, the steps are to:
Add the potentially incorrect entry to a special section on this page titled "Pending Removal due to lack of documentation" with a note that when you add the person you should do a quick google search to see if you can find the information and you should not remove them from the list for two weeks.
Then within two weeks the entry would be moved either to "Documented" (with a note on the documentation on this page and in the bio or to "Removed" at which time the name would be removed from the list until it is documented. Does that sound reasonable? Jliberty 16:46, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
This is a list of Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, and Transgendered individuals. People on this list should have Wikipedia articles, and their addition should have reasonable documentation or there should be some information about their sexuality in their Wikipedia article. In the case of deceased persons there should be significant historical evidence of their sexual or gender orientation.
Here's a change in wording which would allow more flexibility in sourcing. - Willmcw 01:34, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
Or This is a list of Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, and Transgendered individuals. People on this list should have Wikipedia articles, Please add a citation to a source in which information about their sexuality may be verifed when adding people to this list. -
Outerlimits 22:16, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I was ready to support this change, but after my recent experiences I am not sure. I am currently battling an editor who removed all mention of sexuality from an article about Stephen Spender. I doubt that this is an unusual occurance. The norm is probably that there are many editors removing citations about sexuality from articles. So I am now of the opinion that there schould be citations for any person who's sexuality might be controversial, or is not common knowledge. We could make this a fairly uncomplicated process: Someone adds a name; someone else removes it; it gets restored to the list with a citation. End of story. This process is not unlike any other article in Wikipedia. -- Samuel Wantman 01:07, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Just got here because I read a post asking for review. Never having read it before, I have spend an hour or more doing so but remain uninformed as to some main points. What is the purpose of this page? The proposed change is to make it a list of cast-iron stand up in court or self defined people. Fine, if that is what you want. If you wish to include more contentious people- by which I still mean ones where evidence exists, but also perhaps where denials are flying about, then the proposal is no good at all. Perhaps you need two pages. One for cast iron cases, and one for possibles.
A definition that something may only be placed on a wiki page if it already exists on another wiki page is totally absurd. Never mind the suggestion that something can not be included whatever external sources might exist for it.
I see below an argument about Michael Portillo. He seems to have disappeared from the list. Despite having discussed this topic on TV in the political chat show mentioned in his bio where he is a regular presenter/contributor. Despite mention in his wiki bio of 'youthful homosexual dalliance'. Has he been left out because someone removed him and no one bothered to put him back, or because this is not classed as sufficient admission of 'homosexuality'? If the latter, then this proposal is ridiculous.
This is not supposed to be a list of people who shag anything which moves and thus provide proof. It is presumably people who have such an inclination. It is wholly disingenuous to suggest that because someone has no recent public same sex encounters that they would not belong on this page. I have no problem about making a clear distinction between people who are happy about this information being known or do not dispute it, and those who do dispute it. But a list of such people about who controversy exists is still informative in its own right. Sandpiper 4 July 2005 08:54 (UTC)
Proposed standards: This is a list of Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, and Transgendered individuals. People on this list should have Wikipedia articles, and should have some information about their sexuality or sexual identity in their Wikipedia article with reasonable documentation. In the case of deceased persons there should be significant historical evidence of their sexual or gender orientation.
Voting Yes indicates you agree that the article should be revised to the Proposed Standards
Voting No indicates that you do not want the article to be revised to those standards
[To vote, put four tilde (~) marks under Yes or No]
Please do not discuss the standards here; please discuss them in the section above. This section is only for voting.
Yes
No
Conclusion of the strawpoll May I propose that we conclude this poll on July 11, 2005 an even two months from its opening. - Willmcw July 4, 2005 08:38 (UTC)
I fully agree, I will endeavor to assimilate all the points made and offer a new policy statement based on what has been discussed. Thanks. Jliberty 00:13, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
Stereotype -> Gossip -> Speculation -> Rumor --> Debated?
I have serious objections to adding people, especially people who are alive to confirm or deny it, to the Debated section without at least some specific evidence. For example, the recent addition of the singer Clay Aiken because he is "Overly effeminate" (whatever that may mean) is absurd.
The link to the singer confirms that the only evidence for his inclusion is this anachronistic stereotyping coupled with rumor and innuendo. I believe that propagation of stereotypes and unsubstantiated gossip seriously undermines both the credibility of this encyclopedia and does harm to those of us who are out.
There may be good reasons to out closeted GLB people who are doing overt harm to the queer community, but to add a person's name to the debated list because someone thinks that person conforms to a stereotype of queer appearance or because of internet gossip is destructive at best.
Thus, I am removing this singer from the list, and I am editing his article to remove the following:
"Aiken's awkward, effeminate demeanor has led many to speculate that he is a homosexual, though he has not openly confirmed these rumors and has refused interviews with publications which target gay audiences." I'm not sure what "openly confirmed" implies (has he secretly confirmed them?) and refusing interviews does not make you queer, it just makes you unwilling to discuss what he may consider a non-issue. Jliberty 12:27, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)
Your actions are appreciated, although you have a tough task ahead: I suspect a majority are based on dubious sources, as is often the case in Wikipedia articles.
I have serious questions about some of the current status of this page. I am not questioning whether it should exit, but it currently reads to allow people merely suspected of being gay, etc. Most of this is hearsay and in some cases there is very little evidence. Even the disclaimer at the top explains that some of the names are quite disputed. I don't see the benefit in adding people who are suspected. Put it in their biography pages, but not on a listing of "Famous gay lesbin or bisexual people". I vote to remove the disclaimer and all those who are debated. At the very least we need a new article or a new section for those people who are debated. Right now I have no idea which people in the list are debated and which ones are not. Rather than start an edit war, I decided to put my thoughts here before changing anything. -- Ram-Man
Replace the information in the article with the following and appropriately move the information:
or,
Why will sublists make for a longer article than we have now? If we get rid of the letter headings (A, B, and so on), which I don't think are needed in any case, the article might actually end up being shorter than at present. I also don't see how the chances of somebody putting a name in the wrong list are any greater if all the lists are on one page - I would guess, in fact, that the chances of that happening would be reduced, as they can see at a glance that quite a detailed sub-categorisation is going on. I don't see how it's "easier to find a person in a certain category" with separate articles either - surely you have to flick from article to article to find someone, which to me seems rather tiresome. Anyway, this list is by no means so large as to require splitting up.
Just to expand on my reasons for not wanting to split up gay, lesbian and bisexual - it ought to be clear, surely, that if somebody is male, they are gay, and if somebody is female, they are lesbian. "Bisexual" is a rather dodgy term at the best of times - some people will tell you that we are all of us somewhere on the bisexuality continuum. What makes somebody bisexual? If a nominally gay man sleeps with one woman, is he bisexual? What if a nominally straight man sleeps with one man? Better, I think, to keep everyone on the one list (except divided between "certains" and "maybes") and explain all the details on their bio page (a parenthetical comment after their list entry may be useful in some cases, also). -- Camembert
I actually mostly agree with your current view of things. However, this would require removing the "A-Z" markers. They are obviously there for a reason. If you don't put them in new articles, you pretty much have to remove the "A-Z" markers to keep the article from being too cluttered. If you make new articles you can keep the markers in anticipation of future growth of these pages. Still, the bisexual problem does make for an interesting situation. -- RM
Well, I don't mind the "A-Z" markers going - the list(s) should remain in alphabetical order, of course, but I think we all know our alphabet, and we don't really need those markers to remind us of it. As for Martin's concerns - I mean, I sort of agree with you, I think, but I'm not sure what you're arguing for any more (sorry). I suppose I think of this page as being essentially a "List of famous queer people" - we can't actually call the page that, though, because "queer" isn't a term which is widely enough known and accepted. As I say, details can go in the person's own article, or, if required, in a parenthetical comment after their name on this list.
To sum up, then - I think we should keep everyone in this one article; I think we should get rid of the "A-Z" markers; I think we should divide the list into two based on whether there is no serious argument about whether they were gay or whether there is disagreement on the matter; I think we could make comments such as "(an openly gay musician)" or "(a member of parliament suspected of being bisexual") after the person's name if required. -- Camembert
Are you saying to not even have the debateable people in their own article? Also the article already encourages people to comment, but that really has not happened or it has caused othe problems. -- Ram-Man
Yes, that's what I'm saying - the debatables should be on this page, but on their own separate list (so the article would be in two halves - the list of "certainties" and the list of "debatables"). I just don't see the point of separating them to their own article. I just mentioned commenting on others as an alternative to actually splitting up bisexuals, lesbians, etc. I should probably say, by the way, that I'm not a big fan of any of these "List of..." pages (although I have been keeping an eye on this one), so I won't argue very strongly against any changes made here. I'm just saying how I'd like to see things, and how I think things would be best, but if things don't work out that way, that's fine. -- Camembert
Also, was Montgomery Clift widely known to be gay? --- Syncrolecyne (Is John Paul II widely known to be catholic!!! It was practically shouted off the rooftops, to the embarrassment of senior Hollywood stars in the closet who were terrified they'd be asked about their sex lives. JtdIrL)
Socrates was of debated sexual orientation? Are you nuts?! Have you read The Symposium?! I think the only people who "debate" Socrates' sexual orientation are people with their fingers in their ears, chanting "La la la, I can't hear you!" I have never heard anyone attempt to argue that he was heterosexual and I was completely unaware that there was any dispute about him at all. - Montréalais
Just added Camille Saint-Saens to the list of "possibles" - [8] claims "There's no question about his homosexuality", but I don't think it's a reliable source (it says Frederic Chopin was gay, which as far as I know, he wasn't). The evidence for Saint-Saens is pretty circumstantial as far as I'm aware (though I'm happy to be corrected on that).
In more general news - might it be an idea to move all the unclassified ones to the "certain" list, and let people move them to the "debatables" if they feel there is any debate? Otherwise, they might never be moved at all. -- Camembert
Shouldn't there be a comma in the title after "gay"? -- Eloquence 09:17 Feb 11, 2003 (UTC)
Saint-Saens reputedly had an affair with Tchaikovsky? Are you sure about that? It's a new one on me - who reputes this, exactly? -- Camembert
It gives the sexual phrase "making sweet music together" a whole new meaning! JtdIrL 01:59 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)
Added in Sinead O'Connor, who stated recently that she had had relationships with women. Having once seen Sinead and her new (now apparently about to be her ex) husband kiss so intensely that I had wondered if one or other would pass out for lack of oxygen, I can certainly confirm her liking for men too. So I guess means she is bisexual. JtdIrL 02:18 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)
Jtdirl commented "homophobia is a standard link in gay related pages"
It has been the general rule in this page to describe Actors from the United States as being US actors, rather than American. Homophobia is a standard link that is attached to gay related pages, just as we have links to Homophobic hate speech, etc. (If this one isn't on here, I am adding it.) Leave the page in the format it has generally been agreed to. JtdIrL 01:38 Mar 5, 2003 (UTC) And yes, homosexuality is reacted to in different ways. One way (unfortunately) is homophobia, hence the link to explain it. It has been that way for ages by agreement.
I've reinstated Michael Portillo to the confirmed sexual orientation page. When the press release was issued by Michael, it spoke of 'youthful indiscretions' (if I remember the correct term), which made it sound like a bit of fumbling in some classmate's nickers in the boy scouts. In fact it was confirmed that Michael's experiences were not the acts of some young teenager 'experimenting' but a fully grown adult who engaged in homosexual sexual activities but more importantly homosexual relationships throughout his twenties and well into his thirties, if I remember correctly. Michael was challenged about this and asked (by homophobic pro-tory tabloids) to deny being bisexual, to use the excuse 'I was just a kid. It meant nothing, etc'. He didn't, spoke of his relationships as real relationships, and never once challenged the description of himself as bisexual. By my estimation, an adult who not merely has the odd romp with someone of the same sex but enters into longterm relationships when they themselves are more than a teenager but actually an adult in their 20s and 30s, has to be called either gay or bisexual. There would be no dispute. The only issue is the truth or otherwise of their heterosexual side. I have no grounds whatsoever for doubting Michael's heterosexual side, so by definition he must be bisexual. Hence his position back on the list. STÓD/ÉÍRE 09:43 Mar 8, 2003 (UTC)
PS. Why has everybody started using different names? Is it just to confuse me?
Someone who has admitted having sexual relationships with men for over a decade as well as relationships with women is by definition bisexual. He doesn't have to formally say the word to be it. If I was working as his PR agent, I would have told him not to formally say the word, even though you have implied it unambiguously. Not using the word allows the elderly 'blue rinse' brigade in the local Tory organisation not to have to face the fact that their MP is bisexual. They can still use the classic cop-out phrase 'it was a phase he was going through'. Saying the word would have been one step too far for the blue rinses. Not using the word, even though by what you have said you all but spray paint it in 20 foot high lettering on the side of our house, is standard PR procedure in these situations. But his description of what he did unambiguously defines himself as bisexual. And when challenged, he had refused for sound PR reasons to use any word to describe his sexua lity. STÓD/ÉÍRE 21:25 Mar 8, 2003 (UTC)
The list entry just includes his name, with no explanation. The corresponding Wikipedia article says nothing about his sexual orientation. In the page history, whoever added his name didn't give either his name or an explanation in the summary.
I really, really, really think that names should not be placed on the page, even on the ";debated" list, without explanation. Anyone happen to know what the evidence for Gershwin would be (other than his failure to marry)? Dpbsmith 21:47, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)
This article is very scattered, and very difficult to sift through. The two lists of people still under debate should be removed from the article and placed into the TALK page. Only confirmed people should be listed in the article. Doing so will make the article easier to read and understand. Leave the debates for the TALK page. Kingturtle 17:35 May 4, 2003 (UTC)
Please keep unconfirmed names off of the ARTICLE. The names can be debated within the TALK portion. Kingturtle 21:13 22 May 2003 (UTC)
The following people are unconfirmed:
While I certainly do not want to step on any toes, I just moved two additions to the confirmed list down to the debated list: Sappho and Woolf. Now, the only reason I did was because the changes were made by a non-user who can neither explain nor defend the additions, and no updates were made to correct the bio pages. If any USER would like to move them, I wouldn't think of objecting, I just didn't want to see it done by random non-users.
On a side note, no matter what external link is used for evidence, I strongly suggest Jesus Christ (who should be properly listed as Jesus Nazarene, Jesus of Nazareth, Yeshua, or even Jesus, Son of Joseph in the first place, the historical not the religious figure) be removed from the list. The heading is "debated," however, I do not see how this figure could possibly be openly debated as very little philosophical discourse is even permitted about him. I also think it's asking for vandalism, but... Paige
Im bi, Jesus Christ is/was definitely not. No questions about that one guys, even The Bible, God's word, is against homosexuality.
I won't challenge Socrates' undisputedness (yet), but what the heck is Aristotle doing here at all? He repeated the invidiously intended rumor about Socrates having his way with young boys with an extreme sense of distate. Is there any (even circumstantial) evidence that he might have had even supressed tendencies; other than "of course" (what's the emoticon for sarcasm?) his ethnicity :-/ Cimon Avaro on a pogo stick 05:14 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I deleted Margaret Cho. Although she has a large gay (predominantly Lesbian) following, she has always maintained that she is heterosexual. RickK 03:29 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Completely ridiculous! Last I heard the word "bisexual" was used for people who engaged in sex with both men and women, and so Margaret Cho definitely fits that label. You're just trying to make problems where there are none. 172.169.17.120 04:08, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
WRONG WRONG WRONG! If Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, then it is about FACTS, not propaganda or politics. The FACT is, Elton John is gay. Whether he choses to engage in politics is another matter entirley. 172.169.17.120 04:08, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Since the power in this and most cultures is with people who identify as stright, then the rest (glbt, etc.) are queer and while people do not fit easily into pigeon holes, we do know when we're being marginalized, beaten, denied civil rights, etc. These lists have all sorts of problems, but they have the redeeming effect of telling queer teens that they are not alone, and that many highly respected and famous people were also queer. For that, I think it is worthwhile. On the other hand, I for one would restrict the list to those who are confirmed (through their own words or through valid historical resources). On the other-other hand, it must be recognized that setting too strict a filter will drop many queer people who lived at a time when it was almost impossible to be out. Jliberty 16:28, May 8, 2005 (UTC)
First, the above statement is NOT neutral; it implies a subjective interpretation of what "GLB" is. I strongly disagree that people involved in natural "same-gender" relationships are NOT GL or B. If the bottom line is that being "homosexual" or "gay" is an orientation, then what matters is not subjective interpretation of that orientation but whether they were so oriented.
Also, it should be noted that for GLB people, it can be a point of understanding to see real historical figures that were gay but had to deal with it discreetly. That doesn't mean label everyone you want (i.e. Abe Lincoln) as gay, just to have a bigger umbrella (i.e. redefine people in our own image). However, take for example King Henry III of France (ruled 1574-1589). He was widely rumored to be gay. He dressed in women's clothing and wore earrings. He had sleepovers with boys he called "darlings" (he himself was not that old). He was cold to his wife and produced no children. So strong was the assumption that he was gay that Paris rose in open revolt in 1588 (also related to his not being pro-Catholic enough). He was also treated as a "wimp": Duke Henry of Guise tried to push him around and publicly scoffed at the notion that Henry III could do anything to him. Yet Henry III had Henry, Duke of Guise assassinated in 1588. In this sense, he was a "hero" standing up to a bully. As to denials, the writers of the time strongly hinted that Henry III liked males, not females...Likewise, it could easily be documented that James I of England was at least bisexual, engaging in same-sex affairs with "favorites" such as the Duke of Buckingham, "scandalizing" England at the time. Unlike Henry III, King James was also known to sleep with women, but the umbrella term "likely to be gay or bisexual" would certainly fit here. It would also fit the argument that people were "homosexual" due to orientation, not just the social situation of the time; it was easier for a person of power..."Divine Right of Kings"...to live out their fantasies than for the commoner who might be executed if "caught in the very act." Since one of the arguments against gay/homosexual people is that they just "emerged recently" and "chose their orientation," by documenting a long historical trail of evidence of homosexual and bisexual behavior, this notion can be defeated. The prevailing thoughts of then or now should not be overplayed; the facts should come to the fore. Thus, we know today that U.S. President James Buchanan and vice president William R. King very likely engaged in homosexual behavior, but remained closeted due to the times. It would be WRONG for us to assume what they would do or say if alive today, so all we can do is note their actions and the reactions of the times. Finally, this list, if inclusive of historical figures, might just educate today's population a little more beyond the self-centered approach of thinking they were the "first" to do just about everything, when in fact many before were in similar situations. 172.169.17.120 03:47, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
That's not a good enough reason to break NPOV by including people whose LBG status is disputed. If this was a famous list of people who have had same-gender relationships, that would be different. It isn't such a list. Martin
I moved this from the archive, because I still feel this way - perhaps more so now we've apparently decided to scrap "disputed" folks. There's a real element of anachronism in calling Socrates gay, isn't there? Martin 21:42, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)
It seems to me that this list should include a separate section on historical figures (prior to the 20th century) and those people should be removed from the other sections. - Acjelen 02:35, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
In the spirit of editing in a bold manner, I would like to remove all of the names that are not associated with individual articles (all of the names in red). Since the article is titled famous and the intro clearly says evidence should be provided in order to defend the project against possible legal problems, these names cannot possibly be supported by facts without articles, right? Hopefully, each of the names I will list below can have at least a stub created, and the names can then stay on the list. Otherwise, I will remove them. Any objections?
Disagree. This may simply imply that the person who listed them didn't know how to link them to an existing article, or didn't have time or bother to write a new one. Surely Joan Jett is FAMOUS. This list should be dealt with on a pro bono basis, not carte blanche. 172.169.17.120 03:54, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
The next step would be to remove and/or (preferably) remedy those names that have articles, but whose articles make no mention of the person being lesbigay. For those of you asking, "Who died and made her queen?" (Sorry, bad pun.) Feel free to suggest better ways to keep this list both relevant and encyclopedic, but it’s in pretty sorry shape right now. -- Paige 21:11, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with removing the red links. Why? Wiki is an evolving concept where people today, next week, next month, next year are adding articles. Because there is no article about someone today does not mean they are famous. It simply means no-one has written about them yet. Maybe no-one who knows about Irish actors has got around to writing about Hilton Edwards yet but he was a world famous founder of an internationally renounced theatre. No-one wrote about most Irish prime ministers until I came along. Does that mean they were not famous until I wrote about them? It is an absolutely absurd idea. Under no circumstances should people be removed from the list simply because on 18th September 2003 no-one had gotten around to writing about them yet. FearÉIREANN 00:09, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I've removed a nonsensical claim that only people with articles on wiki should be added on the list. No such policy exists on lists and Paige cannot decide to make up her own policy on this page.
Re the above: there is no article yet on Vincent Hanley, but I can confirm 100% that he was gay. (An ex-boyfriend of his is a friend of mine and Vincent's sexuality was an open secret in the broadcasting world and in the gay scene but as homosexual behaviour was still criminalised and gay people subject to discrimination, he could not come out. He moved to the US where tragically he got Aids.) There is no article yet on Micheal MacLiammoir, but there is not a single solitary person on the planet who knows anything about him who thinks he was straight. If he was, it would come as a bit of a shock to his boyfriend of sixty years. Any attempt to remove many clearly accurate statements on the dubious basis that no one had gotten around to writing an article yet will be reverted. FearÉIREANN 00:41, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)
The idea that someone should be removed from a list of gay people by someone because their article doesn't mention they are gay is pretty stupid. And removing true information without any reason to suspect it is wrong and without making the slightest attempt to check it is pretty arrogant. But I guess we will just have to stick "gay" in so that ignorant people don't try to wipe gay people out of the wikipedia then. -- Outerlimits
I strongly object. When I argued on Talk:Homosexual bishop that the articles of people listed on that page made no mention of their homosexuality, I was told that it wasn't necessary. We can't have it both ways. RickK
Much less fuss that way, I would think. Sorry if your intentions were in fact honourable: they didn't read that way to me at first. I find it peculiar that some people seem to feel that the statement "Danny Pintauro is gay" needs more "explanation" or "sourcing" than the statement that "Princess Stephanie of Monaco has two children born out of wedlock by her bodyguard, whom she later married, then divorced when he was photographed having sexual intercourse with "Miss Bare Breasts of Belgium", and a third child born out of wedlock by yet another bodyguard, had a sexual relationship with a married elephant tamer, travelling with her children in his circus caravan for three months, had dalliances with a bartender, her father's major domo, and her father's gardener, and has just married a Portuguese circus acrobat by whom she is pregnant" -- Outerlimits 09:11, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Have removed Chris Smith (UK politician) from the unconfirmed list. Graham :) 14:17, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)
What is Laurence Olivier doing on the unconfirmed list? His own widow, Joan Plowright, confirms that he was bisexual, as do people in the acting world who knew of his longterm sexual relationship with the American actor Danny Kaye - Plowright denied accepting the blame for the breakup of Olivier's second marriage, stating that all through his marriage to Vivien Leigh he had been unfaithful with both women and men, but alongside his marriage to Leigh he had a longterm homosexual affair with Kaye, that relationship lasted longer than any of Olivier's marriages. FearÉIREANN 00:41, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Two more on the unconfirmed list: Ronnie Kray (one half of the Kray twins) was gay and fairly open about his sexual orientation, though I don't think there's any need to add 'and Ronnie was gay' to the Krays page and an individual profile for each twin would only repeat much of what is already written and take up unnecessary bandwidth. The other one on the unconfirmed list is Michael Jackson. The only thing that's happened in his life that alludes to an alternative sexuality was that he was alledged to have molested some kids. He hasn't done anything else to warrant the association and to be honest I'd rather not have alledged paedophilia associated with homosexuality any more than it is already in the minds of the bigots. Unless anyone has any objections I'll remove both from the list. Graham :) 17:25, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)
In the interests of keeping this talk page up to date, have removed Samuel Barber, Montgomery Clift, Gustav V of Sweden, Ernst Roehm, Johann Joachim Winckelmann, Virginia Woolf and W Somerset Maugham from the unconfirmed list above as they have all reappeared in their appropriate sections on the article. I also propose removing all those from the second list above that actually do have articles that have been written about them (the purpose of the list was that they were red links) and to keep the list updated with new red links from the article. Graham :) 12:39, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Updated the red links list above, added the disputed characters in the main article Graham :) 01:40, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I think this is a really really stupid page to have in Wikipedia. Since Wikipedia articles are from the Neutral Point of View, there should also be a "Famous Heterosexual People" page. This line of reasoning can be also followed to turn around traditional Western country minority groups to create a "Famous White People of Cameroon" page since most everyone in Cameroon would not be cosidered white.
IF you don't like this page, go somewhere else. If you want to make a list of "Famous Heterosexual People" or "Famous White People," who is stopping you? Certainly not me. The point is, that "gay" or homosexual people are an historically-persecuted minority, and that part of that pesecution is denial of who they are. Thus, King Edward I of England or King Henry III of France were ostracized for being who they are. One can only imagine what happened to the common people who tried the same thing, if the king had trouble "getting away with it." Also, an article must have reader interest and relevance. How many people want to read about "famous white people in Cameroon?" Try it and see. 172.169.17.120 04:22, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Not if it is a list of minority or exceptional people. For example, "list of centenarians." "List of Kings of England." It is in fact very historical and traditional to create lists of people by category. Before the internet age, many volumes of books like Biography Index were devoted to such. 172.169.17.120 04:22, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
A list of famous people who have admitted to having homosexual experience is weird.
That in itself is a POV! 172.169.17.120 04:22, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
A list of famous people whose fame usually has nothing to do with homosexuality, but might have been, or probably or even certainly were or are homosexual, is many times worse than that.
Why is it "worse?" Your persecutorial attitude merely proves the need for such a list. Always trying to hide the facts. 172.169.17.120 04:22, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
But a list of famous people who at one time or another have been listed by gay and lesbian lists of gays and lesbians, some of which are admittedly unconfirmed, is the bottom of the barrel: and that's what this is. It is idiotic, and I think that everyone here knows it. Mkmcconn 15:39, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Au contraire, scholarly efforts to confirm or at least find supporting evidence for these claims have been attempted...far more than you have tried. If anything, this list is still anti-gay biased because probably-gay people who merely denied their homosexuality publicly (but privately are) are often excluded, as are people with not enough convincing evidence...i.e. "straight-acting gays." Richard Chamberlain didn't "come out" until he was 69, but people knew long before. 172.169.17.120 04:22, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Look in the mirror! I see plenty of bitterness, anxiety, personal insecurity and opinion in your post. FACT: Elton John said he was gay. OK? 172.169.17.120 04:22, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Count me among those who know that the List of people who realise a list of heterosexuals is ridiculous is longer than the List of people who realise a list of homosexuals is ridiculous. -- Outerlimits 01:49, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)
It is basic common sense to create lists of minorities. It is monumentally absurd to create lists of majorities. No-one in their right mind would propose List of people who have never been President of the United States or List of people who have never married a British Royal. But List of people who have been President of the United States or List of people who have married a British Royal is patently sensible. It is about a small sub-group of society. List of famous gay, lesbian and bisexual people is similarly sensible, in that it lists a clearly defined sub-category of people. List of heterosexuals, in that it covered 90%+ of the population is patiently absurd. It is elementary common sense. I'm surprised some people cannot see that. FearÉIREANN 23:05, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Whoever put that name in there, did it without review of whether it belonged there. Deletion of the name was reverted by later editors presumptively, awaiting "proof" - that's what makes this page ridiculous. Just because Aquinas wrote against homosexuality, does not mean that he wasn't "gay": do you really not see that? You cannot prove that someone is not gay. You must prove that they are. Mkmcconn 18:23, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I can't find any evidence that Solon is gay. I would remove the name, but I'm pretty sure any changes I make will be reverted. Also why is Britney Spears listed under 'debated'? Drolsi Susej
I'm in favor of a List of homosexual/bi/lesbian list and opposed to a similar heterosexual list. Its too bad that this page, rather than being an encyclopedic index, is just another stupid effort to get as many people as possible on it no matter how flimsy the justification to make some sort of point. Its pointless to try and fix this page and make it worthy, all the questionable entries merely dilute its worth. Probably best to leave it to its proponents as a monument to failed lists. Ark30inf 05:34, 10 Oct 2003 (UTC)
JiL: please make a comment on this diff. Like, now. Stevertigo's getting shirty. -- Tim Starling 03:16, Oct 11, 2003 (UTC)
Plato should be removed from the list, or at least moved to the 'debated' section since he was a pedophile (note that the designations pedophile and homosexual are modern inventions). Also
Julius Caesar should be removed from the list, or at least moved to the 'debated' section since the accusation of homosexuality were rumors spread to defame Caesar. For instance after Caesar went to Nicomedes, the king of Bithynia, to obtain a fleet of ships; Caesar was successful, but subsequently he became the butt of gossip that he had persuaded the king (a homosexual) only by agreeing to sleep with him. Ancient gossip does not automatically mean someone was a homosexual, especially since the accuracy of the gossip us questionable since it was spread by his politcial enemies.
Drolsi Susej 02:22, 12 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I removed Christina Aguilera & Britney Spears, however Antonio Martin put them back on the list. The burden of ""proof"" should be on those who add people to the list; please post evidence that Christina Aguilera & Britney Spears are (homo|bi)sexual. Drolsi Susej 05:23, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
It is absurd to put Solon, Aristotle, Plato and Alexander on a list of "gay" people. The concept "gay" is ridiculously ahistorical when applied to people from a society which had a radically different understanding of sexuality than our own. If those four were "gay" then so was every other figure from ancient Greek history, and quite a lot from Roman history as well.
Also how did this hideous non-word lesbigay get into an encyclopaedia?
Adam 14:05, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
-- Mirv 07:01, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
In all fairness, we should have a famous heterosexual people page. No need to be biased against heterosexual people. I fail to see how pointing out someone's sexual orientation adds or subtracts credibility or accomplishment. Explictly pointing out someone's homosexuality does little to encourage everyone to treat others without bias. It tends to encourage special treatment as if homosexuality is some kind of handicap. I think it is not a handicap.
RESPONSE: Without being too biased or having a non impartial point of view, I will explain it to you as such:
Because homosexuals, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered persons are often discriminated against (to the point of violence, murder, exclusion in society;) beacuse they are often told that they are worthless, lower than human life, disgusting and invaluable members of society; because they have to fight to bear heard and visible in the world (something that has become less obvious to non-homosexuals in the year 2002, but is no less true.) This is why they deserve special recognition in something of this nature.
Every child or teenager who is questioning his or her own sexuality can see a list of people who have identified as gay, and can then look at those people's accomplishments and say "Look! There is a diverse group of men and women (and everyone in between) who have accomplished so much! I am a worthy human being. Worthy of respect. Worthy of success. Worthy of the right to exist."
Heterosexual children, barring their own diverse potential to fall into other minority categories, and who no doubt go through just as many strifes and identity struggles, do not go through these struggles in particular. And that is just one of the many reasons why this listing should exist. -EB-
Of course not, but we can sure get it out of the closet and into mainstream media, casual office conversation, Thanksgiving-with-the-family chatter, everyday scenes in parks and airports, hospital visits, etc, etc, etc (Hell, I expect you know the drill). And for that matter, get it out of the teen suicide statistics http://isd.usc.edu/~retter/suicstats.html
(i'm sure there are countless more)
Three or four, at least! :-)
But seriously, there's a problem here with "claimed", "suspected", "reputed", etc.
- I'm thinking specifically of
Shakespeare, for example.
(Actually a page of "People who might have been GLB" would probably be just as long!
Well Oscar Wilde, for example, certaintly was gay. -- Seems to be adequate evidence in his case, yes. :-) -- Most modern authors treat Sappho as being lesbian or bisexual (in fact, she is the origin of the word lesbian) -- I knew that! :-) She was also married and had at least one kid. --, but some are not so sure of this.
Many also question the validity of applying terms like 'homosexual' or 'bisexual' to people who lived centuries before these terms were even invented. Some think this is trying to fit the sexuality of the past into the mold of modern sexuality, which some think won't work. But then a lot of these people deny that anyone is really gay or straight anyway. (I am talking here of course of queer theory.) -- SJK
Well, how about Shakespeare? How about Leonardo da Vinci? How about J. Edgar Hoover? How about a certain famous actress and director?
You see what a kettle of fish this is. (Of course, nothing new about this "problem"!)
Dmerrill, thanks very much for your contributions. Why should "who to put on this list" be a dead issue? (I have my own ideas on this, interested in hearing yours.)
I object not to the list or the wording (actually, I take that back. I object to all the lists of Famous buddhists, famous glbt, or famous Scorpios, come to that matter), but to the concept. You admit on the main page that the concept gay lesbian and bisexual is controverted, fluid, and difficult, but you continue to use it to identify people. I think that's not a good idea. --MichaelTinkler
I'm with you, Michael. My take has been to show how absurd the whole idea is. (Shining light in the darkness, if you get my theological drift. :-) I updated the Biographical Listing page to expose the other silly lists. <>< tbc
Article says:
But it is possible for someone to be homosexual and never have a romantic relationship with a person of the same gender, or even to never have sex with one. And one the other hand, a single relationship with a member of the same sex doesn't mean they are homosexual or bisexual either. It could have been just an odd situation, not at all definining their identity.... Maybe we should just say that "these people are commonly claimed to have been homosexual or bisexual, with various degrees of evidence to support the claim." Then we don't have to judge controversial claims or borderline cases. -- SJK
I like the list because I find it interesting. I agree that defining who belongs on such a list is problematic. Can we try to agree on a definition that is npov and also practical?
I really like SJK's suggested guideline because it is npov, and it's simple and direct, and it avoids any possibility of libel accusations. Saying:
seems to work best IMHO. Any arguments why this is insufficient? Let's try to come to an agreement, as we always seem to do on Wikipedia. -- Dmerrill
O.K., this list has already grown in EXACTLY the way that all these 'Famous' lists grow, and I'm going to insert my usual whine. Chastity Bono would not get an entry in Wikipedia until *I* got a bigoraphical entry in Wikipedia except that she is out and the daughter of two (particularly horrific!) people we've all heard of. Candace Gingrich is even less relevant today than Chastity, because at least Cher keeps grinding out what passes for dance music. These people are not all gblt by any reasonable defintion, nor are they all famous. This is now just a list of folks, and hence somewhat irrelevant. If you want to make a biographical listing for each of these people, have at it. --MichaelTinkler
I am considering starting a list of famous red-haired people, and one on famous spectacle-wearers, and another on well-known stammerers, and freckle-nosed people, and notorious smokers, and nose-pickers, and......I am very much against these kinds of lists. One BIG vote for removal. It does not serve any informational purpose. If relevant, a person's sexual orientation should be included in his/her biography and nowhere else.
Zundark, I'm glad you tend to agree we need to remove this page, but you refer to an argument without any support in the
article on bisexuality. I first want to see what answer comes up the question about proof for this allegation. It seems to me an unbelievably high figure. But I agree with you that the argument on top is one more reason to do away with this list. It specifies people with a quality within their personalities, that's what bothers me.
Robert, you mention a pastoral argument. You have a point that young people with homophobic ideas should be able find something on this Wikipedia to change their biased feelings into more understanding of something that is alien to them. And I am also for a route along wiki articles which will help them, plus young, scared gay people in-the-closet to find the right information, if that's what we want. But role-models? Do they get to know and appreciate those people for who they are when they know the bare fact that they're gay and famous for something? Doesn't convince me, really. I don't want to whine, but still vote for removal.
I didn't realise when I started this list how much controversy it would cause! :) I thought the list might be informative from the point of view of GLB history, which some people seriously study. While it might be useful in "educating homophobic teenagers", that wasn't my idea, and I don't think it should be the main focus of the article.
Also, there is an obvious reason why we could have this list and not a "list of famous heterosexuals". A list of famous heterosexuals would be way too long, and ultimately boring. Who really cares if some particular person is straight -- nothing non-ordinary about that. OTOH, that someone was GLB can be an interesting piece of information, especially with reference to the very famous and long dead (someone being GLB today is a lot less interesting, because modern society, at least in the West, is much more tolerant of it). -- SJK
A proposal: if it is true (which I still doubt) that someone was GLB can be an interesting piece of information, then it is only true when this piece of information sheds light on historical developments of the relationship society-gay/lesbian people, or on the general self-image of gays and lesbians. I can imagine that for instance the controversy around Oscar Wilde caused a significant change, or he at least caused great ripples in society those days. It would be worth to mention his homosexuality with the accompanying story. There will undoubtly be other examples. We could perhaps refracture this page into something really infomative and relevant. But to mention each and every GL person of fame just in order to have a list, just in order to be as complete as possible, just to satisfy people's curiosity, or for other quite superficial (don't take this personally) reasons, what good does that do?
Well yes, at least in Oscar Wilde's life anyway: he was executed for it.
Ak! Hard labor! Who am I thinking of?....
IMHO, I'd like to see this page remain. I've read arguments to the contrary, those being:
If it is, then how about changing it to
and allowing evidence supporting and refuting to be recorded.
I agree that this list (or any other wikipedia article) should not be a propaganda tool and should retain a NPOV. Further, I'd like to see this evolve into an article(s) containing why those on the list are thought/not-thought to be by some. But there should not need to be much justification as to why a particular topic belongs in Wikipedia. But let's keep the article. sfmontyo
Marie Antoinette?!! - montréalais
Moved:
If you check the page, you'll see that he was accused and acquitted. Without evidence, I think his mention should not be on the list. Feel free to put it back if you disagree. -- Ed Poor
Looks like there's a tug-of-war over King David & Jonathan. Sex & religion, hard to see why THIS is contentious... While I wouldn't put them on a list of "famous gay lesbian or bisexual people", certainly SOME people would, largely on the basis of 2 Samuel 1:26 (RSV) "I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant have you been to me; your love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women. ". Slim evidence, but they do belong on a list of those for whom at least "some people believe there is evidence the person was gay, lesbian or bisexual", which appears to be the concensus for what this list is. I vaguely recall much being made of them in Boswell's book on same-sex unions in the Middle Ages. Someone else 06:54 Sep 12, 2002 (UTC)
On the Biblical David being considered to be bisexual - actually, I was just reverting what appeared to be a pretty random deletion when I restored him to this list, since I thought that this tidbit was common knowledge. Nonetheless, a 5 second Google revealed some clear views on King David's sexuality, based on biblical texts: [1] [2]
I'm surprised that this is news to anybody, to be honest. Jacob
There are a number of reasons why David being gay is a problem. The reason he is thought to be gay has to do with the relationship between him and Jonathon. Any scholar of that time period can verify that such a relationship was purely one of friendship. All their actions would mean friendship. In fact if it was a relationship that was not based on friendship, such an action would be greatly frowned on. Men were not permitted to kiss their own wives in public. *Only* family (i.e. brother and sister) was permitted to show affection to each other in public. Another is that the Hebrew law forbid the act as it did adultery. The punishment was stoning. Yet God only sent a prophet to condemn him about adultery. There are not other situations in his entire life where he could be considered gay. This is only one example and only when interpreted in the light of modern times can we come to that conclusions, that is, only when we don't understand their culture correctly. It should be noted that this is an opinion, as there are two opposite views and it is clear that the issue is debatable. It should be noted as an opinion on the subject page at *minimum*. -- Ram-Man
Some more thoughts:
-- Ram-Man
Saul Bellow's Ravelstein contains a character said to be based on Bloom, and at least one advocate argues that Bloom, like the character who died of AIDS, must have been gay. Should we include Allan Bloom, on the strength of an article in a gay publication claiming him because of his resemblance to a character in a novel? -- Ed Poor
I vacuumed this out of the article, because there's not enough evidence.
Apparently he had a close friendship with another bachelor, but if he was gay he took the secret with him to the grave. Of course, from a civil rights point of view, he may have been a "cock-sucker", but that's a figure of speech. -- Ed Poor
The big allegation was that he was a transvestite, the closet gay thing just got added on due to his relationship with Tolson. One woman quoted in Anthony Summers' , Official and Confidential: The Secret Life of J. Edgar Hoover claimed to have seen Hoover in at least two separate and fetching outfits. Those brave enough may want to take a look at an artist's conception: http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/oliphant/vc007266.jpg In general I think the concensus is that the testimony is unconvincing, and the idea of J. Edgar playing Aunt Bea disconcerting... Someone else
I have trouble with the title being "Famous gay lesbian or bisexual people" and the note that says that the people are not necessarily gay, only that some people think so. Which is it? The title should match. The word "Gay" is a loaded word, and a little disclaimer is not going to prevent misunderstanding. This list also has diminished purpose for me because I don't know who on the list was admittedly gay and who was possibly gay. These are important distinctions and based on the title of this article, only the former should be included. -- Ram-Man
You're comparing homosexuality with bestiality? Dangerous ground... - Khendon 15:33 Oct 11, 2002 (UTC)
Why not have a List of famous people who had sex with animals? After all, Every child or teenager who is questioning his or her own sexuality can see a list of people who have identified as having sex with animals, and can then look at those people's accomplishments and say "Look! There is a diverse group of men and women (and everyone in between) who have accomplished so much! I am a worthy human being. Worthy of respect. Worthy of success. Worthy of the right to exist." - -There is no need to distinguish those who admitted having sex with animals from those reputed to have done, as this "encyclopedia article" is there for the sole purpose of encouraging the self worth of those who have sex with animals. OK -here is a start. -
It was an unacceptable comment and it has been removed. It was derogatory towards homosexuals and the wikipedia is not a place where that will be allowed. For those reading this, someone spoofed the response at the top of this talk page by replacing the idea of being gay with of being into bestiality. Here is the difference:
To have an interest in bestiality is considered a mental health issue because it prohibits the human party involved from having healthy sexual relationships with other humans. Homosexuality has been clarified by the mental health community as being NON MENTAL-HEALTH RELATED, because adult homosexuals are able to have loving, healthy romantic and sexual relationships.
If you have a problem with homosexuality, don't take it here with your natty and rude comments. The fact remains that minority groups need role models, and that makes entries like this important.
The final word on the matter is: this entry is culturally important to homosexuals, and it will remain. In the civilized Western world, medical professionals believe homosexuality to be anon mental-health related issue. If you don't like homosexuality, and don't understand WHY this entry is important (despite the numerous repeated explainations from myself and others,) you will simply have to resign yourself to the fact that to many, it is, and so it will continue to be. -EB-
I know it is common among the gay community to call Susan B. Anthony as a lesbian (They like the association with a famous feminist), however I am not sure that this is true, as she never directly said so (though some believe her writings show that she was). In fact most people do not understand what she stood for. She would have hated modern feminism and more closely sided with Christian fundamentalists (oddly enough!). She opposed gay male relationships because she believed that it was the man's job to provide for woman and a gay relationship would mean that men were not doing so. The truth of everything surrounding her (including what I write) is debated, and she should not be included in a definitive listing. -- Ram-Man
Somehow this "list of" page has become a proxy for the debate on "whether homosexuality is good or bad or what". It took me a few days to realize this, and I apologize (particularly to Easter Bradford) for my insensitivity.
May I suggest that contributors with ideas on homosexuality and its mental health status or "morality" status join me in (a) looking for the relevant articles and updating them or (b) just dropping it. -- Ed Poor
Well JEEZ. Why can't it just be that simple? Why can't it just be "I don't think that this entry needs to exist;" "Well, *I* do, and here's why;" "Okay, I don't understand your why, but I acecpt and respect it. Fair enough." "Thank you."
It can't because people DON'T respect homosexuals in their right to exist, have their own culture and identify. But Ed, I appreciate your apology, although I as of yet haven't found any of your comments in particular to be offensive or off-basis. -EB-
Why was Gianni Versace removed? I'm no fashion expert, but I thought he was pretty uncontroversially gay. -- Camembert
Re
J. Edgar Hoover: We can guess or opine, but we don't really know. Our own page on him says, "Speculation that Hoover practiced homosexuality has never been confirmed with factual evidence." (Whatever that might be in this context). Comments?
Returning to J. Edgar Hoover; There is some suspicion the idea of Hoover as a transvestite was Soviet disinformation. Hoover, according to people who knew him, was heterosexual. But the evidence is weak one way or another, and it has become an urban legend. -- GABaker
I'm removing Hoover again - really, I've heard about his supposed transvestitism many times, but I'd never heard a suggestion he was gay until I saw him on this list a while ago. It'd be nice if people who want him on the list could at least cite some sort of evidence that he was gay. I'm also removing Franco, because this is the first I've heard of him being gay, and I don't believe there's any evidence that he was - again, a cite gets him back in the list. -- Camembert
I would like to propose the following:
1. Anyone who does not have an article should be removed from the list because there is no explanation of why they are on the list. If they don't warrant an article, they don't make the list
2. Anyone whose article does not explain why the person is throught to be queer, should be removed from the list.
3. That explanation in the case of living people should either be self-acknowledgement (see
Jesse Liberty) or should be reasonable documentation for a politically motivated
outing.
4. In the case of people no longer alive, there should be substantial historical evidence for inclusion.
5. The fact that the concepts of gay, lesbian and bisexual did not exist in the past is irrelevant. If there is good historical evidence that someone lived a homosexual or bisexual life, that person should be included
6. Let's stop arguing over whether the list itself is valuable; enough of us find that it is for many reasons including research.
7. The list should include anyone who is "not straight" -- that is lesbian, bisexual, homosexual, trangender, transsexual, intersex, etc. (I personally would change the name of the list to famous queer people, but I won't enter that debate here).
8. The person need not be an activist, just famous enough to otherwise warrant an article, and also queer as defined above.
9. Those who are interested in preserving the list should make a good faith effort to prune it carefully. Those who dislike the list should leave it alone and try not to look at it, why be aggravated?
Jliberty 23:45, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
I see someone's proposed yet another purge – anyone whose sexuality isnot mentioned elsewhere in Wikipedia will be wiped from the roles of the gay. But here's a scoop: Wikipedia systematically suppresses information about sexuality. When such mentions are added to articles, they are nearly immediately wiped out. And here's another scoop: Wikipedia is rather a poor source of information on who is/was gay. For that sort of information, one must look to other sources. So a purge based on using Wikipedia as the only source ought to be a complete non-starter.
Here's a counterproposal: if you see someone whom you think should not be on the list, do the necessary research outside of Wikipedia and determine if he or she belongs here or not. Document your search and make the appropriate deletions or additions to the list. Cite your sources. Act in good faith. - Outerlimits 07:12, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm suggesting that the editor who removed the word "gay" does not seem to have done so in order to supress information. And that no one has tried to add the word back in more than 16 months. So I'm suggesting that this may not be as serious an issue as you apparently believe that it is. This list is going to continue to have people added to it and removed from it. I'd rather that we have some criteris for deciding who stays and who goes. Your original counter-proposal did not contain a criteria other than the de facto "editor's judgement". Can you suggest an alternate criteria? Cheers, - Willmcw 04:57, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
Based on a spot check I'd guess that about one-third of the biographies have no mention of sexuality. Those entries will no longer be acceptable if the proposal has a consensus, including those that have been verified. For example, I've checked many of the entries over the past month, first in their wikibio and then on Google. I found that in many cases there are plenty of external sources on the matter, but none of those have been entered into our biographical articles. (Yes, I should have taken the extra 10 minutes to add it after checking.) If we simply delete the names from this list then we're losing information out of the encyclopedia. The most comprehensive solution might be to spam the talk pages of all the biographical articles with a note saying that the subject has an entry in this list, and that continued inclusion in the LGBT list depends on the contents of the bio, also mentioning the "disputed" section and the [category:LGBT persons]. Another option is to simply add the names that are removed to a list of "de-listed" entries on this talk page. (omitting the patently spurious additions). One way or another, we should find a way of implementing this proposal that avoids a mass deletion of material. Cheers, - Willmcw 01:25, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
As a test case, I've moved Marlon Brando to a new section (below). His extensive
bio does not mention anything about his bisexuality and does discuss his various wives. In my opinion (and based on my proposal) he either should be moved off the GLBT list or his bisexuality should be documented in some way.
Jliberty 11:09, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, there is real risk of heterosexism and even homophobia contributing to the desire to cut into this list. On the other hand, there is gossip about people being queer based on stereotypes about behavior or appearance that does as much harm as presuming someone is straight because they don't meet the stereotype.
That said, I'd be happy to revise the proposal to say that rather than removing someone from the list, the steps are to:
Add the potentially incorrect entry to a special section on this page titled "Pending Removal due to lack of documentation" with a note that when you add the person you should do a quick google search to see if you can find the information and you should not remove them from the list for two weeks.
Then within two weeks the entry would be moved either to "Documented" (with a note on the documentation on this page and in the bio or to "Removed" at which time the name would be removed from the list until it is documented. Does that sound reasonable? Jliberty 16:46, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
This is a list of Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, and Transgendered individuals. People on this list should have Wikipedia articles, and their addition should have reasonable documentation or there should be some information about their sexuality in their Wikipedia article. In the case of deceased persons there should be significant historical evidence of their sexual or gender orientation.
Here's a change in wording which would allow more flexibility in sourcing. - Willmcw 01:34, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
Or This is a list of Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, and Transgendered individuals. People on this list should have Wikipedia articles, Please add a citation to a source in which information about their sexuality may be verifed when adding people to this list. -
Outerlimits 22:16, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I was ready to support this change, but after my recent experiences I am not sure. I am currently battling an editor who removed all mention of sexuality from an article about Stephen Spender. I doubt that this is an unusual occurance. The norm is probably that there are many editors removing citations about sexuality from articles. So I am now of the opinion that there schould be citations for any person who's sexuality might be controversial, or is not common knowledge. We could make this a fairly uncomplicated process: Someone adds a name; someone else removes it; it gets restored to the list with a citation. End of story. This process is not unlike any other article in Wikipedia. -- Samuel Wantman 01:07, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Just got here because I read a post asking for review. Never having read it before, I have spend an hour or more doing so but remain uninformed as to some main points. What is the purpose of this page? The proposed change is to make it a list of cast-iron stand up in court or self defined people. Fine, if that is what you want. If you wish to include more contentious people- by which I still mean ones where evidence exists, but also perhaps where denials are flying about, then the proposal is no good at all. Perhaps you need two pages. One for cast iron cases, and one for possibles.
A definition that something may only be placed on a wiki page if it already exists on another wiki page is totally absurd. Never mind the suggestion that something can not be included whatever external sources might exist for it.
I see below an argument about Michael Portillo. He seems to have disappeared from the list. Despite having discussed this topic on TV in the political chat show mentioned in his bio where he is a regular presenter/contributor. Despite mention in his wiki bio of 'youthful homosexual dalliance'. Has he been left out because someone removed him and no one bothered to put him back, or because this is not classed as sufficient admission of 'homosexuality'? If the latter, then this proposal is ridiculous.
This is not supposed to be a list of people who shag anything which moves and thus provide proof. It is presumably people who have such an inclination. It is wholly disingenuous to suggest that because someone has no recent public same sex encounters that they would not belong on this page. I have no problem about making a clear distinction between people who are happy about this information being known or do not dispute it, and those who do dispute it. But a list of such people about who controversy exists is still informative in its own right. Sandpiper 4 July 2005 08:54 (UTC)
Proposed standards: This is a list of Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, and Transgendered individuals. People on this list should have Wikipedia articles, and should have some information about their sexuality or sexual identity in their Wikipedia article with reasonable documentation. In the case of deceased persons there should be significant historical evidence of their sexual or gender orientation.
Voting Yes indicates you agree that the article should be revised to the Proposed Standards
Voting No indicates that you do not want the article to be revised to those standards
[To vote, put four tilde (~) marks under Yes or No]
Please do not discuss the standards here; please discuss them in the section above. This section is only for voting.
Yes
No
Conclusion of the strawpoll May I propose that we conclude this poll on July 11, 2005 an even two months from its opening. - Willmcw July 4, 2005 08:38 (UTC)
I fully agree, I will endeavor to assimilate all the points made and offer a new policy statement based on what has been discussed. Thanks. Jliberty 00:13, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
Stereotype -> Gossip -> Speculation -> Rumor --> Debated?
I have serious objections to adding people, especially people who are alive to confirm or deny it, to the Debated section without at least some specific evidence. For example, the recent addition of the singer Clay Aiken because he is "Overly effeminate" (whatever that may mean) is absurd.
The link to the singer confirms that the only evidence for his inclusion is this anachronistic stereotyping coupled with rumor and innuendo. I believe that propagation of stereotypes and unsubstantiated gossip seriously undermines both the credibility of this encyclopedia and does harm to those of us who are out.
There may be good reasons to out closeted GLB people who are doing overt harm to the queer community, but to add a person's name to the debated list because someone thinks that person conforms to a stereotype of queer appearance or because of internet gossip is destructive at best.
Thus, I am removing this singer from the list, and I am editing his article to remove the following:
"Aiken's awkward, effeminate demeanor has led many to speculate that he is a homosexual, though he has not openly confirmed these rumors and has refused interviews with publications which target gay audiences." I'm not sure what "openly confirmed" implies (has he secretly confirmed them?) and refusing interviews does not make you queer, it just makes you unwilling to discuss what he may consider a non-issue. Jliberty 12:27, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)
Your actions are appreciated, although you have a tough task ahead: I suspect a majority are based on dubious sources, as is often the case in Wikipedia articles.
I have serious questions about some of the current status of this page. I am not questioning whether it should exit, but it currently reads to allow people merely suspected of being gay, etc. Most of this is hearsay and in some cases there is very little evidence. Even the disclaimer at the top explains that some of the names are quite disputed. I don't see the benefit in adding people who are suspected. Put it in their biography pages, but not on a listing of "Famous gay lesbin or bisexual people". I vote to remove the disclaimer and all those who are debated. At the very least we need a new article or a new section for those people who are debated. Right now I have no idea which people in the list are debated and which ones are not. Rather than start an edit war, I decided to put my thoughts here before changing anything. -- Ram-Man
Replace the information in the article with the following and appropriately move the information:
or,
Why will sublists make for a longer article than we have now? If we get rid of the letter headings (A, B, and so on), which I don't think are needed in any case, the article might actually end up being shorter than at present. I also don't see how the chances of somebody putting a name in the wrong list are any greater if all the lists are on one page - I would guess, in fact, that the chances of that happening would be reduced, as they can see at a glance that quite a detailed sub-categorisation is going on. I don't see how it's "easier to find a person in a certain category" with separate articles either - surely you have to flick from article to article to find someone, which to me seems rather tiresome. Anyway, this list is by no means so large as to require splitting up.
Just to expand on my reasons for not wanting to split up gay, lesbian and bisexual - it ought to be clear, surely, that if somebody is male, they are gay, and if somebody is female, they are lesbian. "Bisexual" is a rather dodgy term at the best of times - some people will tell you that we are all of us somewhere on the bisexuality continuum. What makes somebody bisexual? If a nominally gay man sleeps with one woman, is he bisexual? What if a nominally straight man sleeps with one man? Better, I think, to keep everyone on the one list (except divided between "certains" and "maybes") and explain all the details on their bio page (a parenthetical comment after their list entry may be useful in some cases, also). -- Camembert
I actually mostly agree with your current view of things. However, this would require removing the "A-Z" markers. They are obviously there for a reason. If you don't put them in new articles, you pretty much have to remove the "A-Z" markers to keep the article from being too cluttered. If you make new articles you can keep the markers in anticipation of future growth of these pages. Still, the bisexual problem does make for an interesting situation. -- RM
Well, I don't mind the "A-Z" markers going - the list(s) should remain in alphabetical order, of course, but I think we all know our alphabet, and we don't really need those markers to remind us of it. As for Martin's concerns - I mean, I sort of agree with you, I think, but I'm not sure what you're arguing for any more (sorry). I suppose I think of this page as being essentially a "List of famous queer people" - we can't actually call the page that, though, because "queer" isn't a term which is widely enough known and accepted. As I say, details can go in the person's own article, or, if required, in a parenthetical comment after their name on this list.
To sum up, then - I think we should keep everyone in this one article; I think we should get rid of the "A-Z" markers; I think we should divide the list into two based on whether there is no serious argument about whether they were gay or whether there is disagreement on the matter; I think we could make comments such as "(an openly gay musician)" or "(a member of parliament suspected of being bisexual") after the person's name if required. -- Camembert
Are you saying to not even have the debateable people in their own article? Also the article already encourages people to comment, but that really has not happened or it has caused othe problems. -- Ram-Man
Yes, that's what I'm saying - the debatables should be on this page, but on their own separate list (so the article would be in two halves - the list of "certainties" and the list of "debatables"). I just don't see the point of separating them to their own article. I just mentioned commenting on others as an alternative to actually splitting up bisexuals, lesbians, etc. I should probably say, by the way, that I'm not a big fan of any of these "List of..." pages (although I have been keeping an eye on this one), so I won't argue very strongly against any changes made here. I'm just saying how I'd like to see things, and how I think things would be best, but if things don't work out that way, that's fine. -- Camembert
Also, was Montgomery Clift widely known to be gay? --- Syncrolecyne (Is John Paul II widely known to be catholic!!! It was practically shouted off the rooftops, to the embarrassment of senior Hollywood stars in the closet who were terrified they'd be asked about their sex lives. JtdIrL)
Socrates was of debated sexual orientation? Are you nuts?! Have you read The Symposium?! I think the only people who "debate" Socrates' sexual orientation are people with their fingers in their ears, chanting "La la la, I can't hear you!" I have never heard anyone attempt to argue that he was heterosexual and I was completely unaware that there was any dispute about him at all. - Montréalais
Just added Camille Saint-Saens to the list of "possibles" - [8] claims "There's no question about his homosexuality", but I don't think it's a reliable source (it says Frederic Chopin was gay, which as far as I know, he wasn't). The evidence for Saint-Saens is pretty circumstantial as far as I'm aware (though I'm happy to be corrected on that).
In more general news - might it be an idea to move all the unclassified ones to the "certain" list, and let people move them to the "debatables" if they feel there is any debate? Otherwise, they might never be moved at all. -- Camembert
Shouldn't there be a comma in the title after "gay"? -- Eloquence 09:17 Feb 11, 2003 (UTC)
Saint-Saens reputedly had an affair with Tchaikovsky? Are you sure about that? It's a new one on me - who reputes this, exactly? -- Camembert
It gives the sexual phrase "making sweet music together" a whole new meaning! JtdIrL 01:59 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)
Added in Sinead O'Connor, who stated recently that she had had relationships with women. Having once seen Sinead and her new (now apparently about to be her ex) husband kiss so intensely that I had wondered if one or other would pass out for lack of oxygen, I can certainly confirm her liking for men too. So I guess means she is bisexual. JtdIrL 02:18 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)
Jtdirl commented "homophobia is a standard link in gay related pages"
It has been the general rule in this page to describe Actors from the United States as being US actors, rather than American. Homophobia is a standard link that is attached to gay related pages, just as we have links to Homophobic hate speech, etc. (If this one isn't on here, I am adding it.) Leave the page in the format it has generally been agreed to. JtdIrL 01:38 Mar 5, 2003 (UTC) And yes, homosexuality is reacted to in different ways. One way (unfortunately) is homophobia, hence the link to explain it. It has been that way for ages by agreement.
I've reinstated Michael Portillo to the confirmed sexual orientation page. When the press release was issued by Michael, it spoke of 'youthful indiscretions' (if I remember the correct term), which made it sound like a bit of fumbling in some classmate's nickers in the boy scouts. In fact it was confirmed that Michael's experiences were not the acts of some young teenager 'experimenting' but a fully grown adult who engaged in homosexual sexual activities but more importantly homosexual relationships throughout his twenties and well into his thirties, if I remember correctly. Michael was challenged about this and asked (by homophobic pro-tory tabloids) to deny being bisexual, to use the excuse 'I was just a kid. It meant nothing, etc'. He didn't, spoke of his relationships as real relationships, and never once challenged the description of himself as bisexual. By my estimation, an adult who not merely has the odd romp with someone of the same sex but enters into longterm relationships when they themselves are more than a teenager but actually an adult in their 20s and 30s, has to be called either gay or bisexual. There would be no dispute. The only issue is the truth or otherwise of their heterosexual side. I have no grounds whatsoever for doubting Michael's heterosexual side, so by definition he must be bisexual. Hence his position back on the list. STÓD/ÉÍRE 09:43 Mar 8, 2003 (UTC)
PS. Why has everybody started using different names? Is it just to confuse me?
Someone who has admitted having sexual relationships with men for over a decade as well as relationships with women is by definition bisexual. He doesn't have to formally say the word to be it. If I was working as his PR agent, I would have told him not to formally say the word, even though you have implied it unambiguously. Not using the word allows the elderly 'blue rinse' brigade in the local Tory organisation not to have to face the fact that their MP is bisexual. They can still use the classic cop-out phrase 'it was a phase he was going through'. Saying the word would have been one step too far for the blue rinses. Not using the word, even though by what you have said you all but spray paint it in 20 foot high lettering on the side of our house, is standard PR procedure in these situations. But his description of what he did unambiguously defines himself as bisexual. And when challenged, he had refused for sound PR reasons to use any word to describe his sexua lity. STÓD/ÉÍRE 21:25 Mar 8, 2003 (UTC)
The list entry just includes his name, with no explanation. The corresponding Wikipedia article says nothing about his sexual orientation. In the page history, whoever added his name didn't give either his name or an explanation in the summary.
I really, really, really think that names should not be placed on the page, even on the ";debated" list, without explanation. Anyone happen to know what the evidence for Gershwin would be (other than his failure to marry)? Dpbsmith 21:47, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)
This article is very scattered, and very difficult to sift through. The two lists of people still under debate should be removed from the article and placed into the TALK page. Only confirmed people should be listed in the article. Doing so will make the article easier to read and understand. Leave the debates for the TALK page. Kingturtle 17:35 May 4, 2003 (UTC)
Please keep unconfirmed names off of the ARTICLE. The names can be debated within the TALK portion. Kingturtle 21:13 22 May 2003 (UTC)
The following people are unconfirmed:
While I certainly do not want to step on any toes, I just moved two additions to the confirmed list down to the debated list: Sappho and Woolf. Now, the only reason I did was because the changes were made by a non-user who can neither explain nor defend the additions, and no updates were made to correct the bio pages. If any USER would like to move them, I wouldn't think of objecting, I just didn't want to see it done by random non-users.
On a side note, no matter what external link is used for evidence, I strongly suggest Jesus Christ (who should be properly listed as Jesus Nazarene, Jesus of Nazareth, Yeshua, or even Jesus, Son of Joseph in the first place, the historical not the religious figure) be removed from the list. The heading is "debated," however, I do not see how this figure could possibly be openly debated as very little philosophical discourse is even permitted about him. I also think it's asking for vandalism, but... Paige
Im bi, Jesus Christ is/was definitely not. No questions about that one guys, even The Bible, God's word, is against homosexuality.
I won't challenge Socrates' undisputedness (yet), but what the heck is Aristotle doing here at all? He repeated the invidiously intended rumor about Socrates having his way with young boys with an extreme sense of distate. Is there any (even circumstantial) evidence that he might have had even supressed tendencies; other than "of course" (what's the emoticon for sarcasm?) his ethnicity :-/ Cimon Avaro on a pogo stick 05:14 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I deleted Margaret Cho. Although she has a large gay (predominantly Lesbian) following, she has always maintained that she is heterosexual. RickK 03:29 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Completely ridiculous! Last I heard the word "bisexual" was used for people who engaged in sex with both men and women, and so Margaret Cho definitely fits that label. You're just trying to make problems where there are none. 172.169.17.120 04:08, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
WRONG WRONG WRONG! If Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, then it is about FACTS, not propaganda or politics. The FACT is, Elton John is gay. Whether he choses to engage in politics is another matter entirley. 172.169.17.120 04:08, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Since the power in this and most cultures is with people who identify as stright, then the rest (glbt, etc.) are queer and while people do not fit easily into pigeon holes, we do know when we're being marginalized, beaten, denied civil rights, etc. These lists have all sorts of problems, but they have the redeeming effect of telling queer teens that they are not alone, and that many highly respected and famous people were also queer. For that, I think it is worthwhile. On the other hand, I for one would restrict the list to those who are confirmed (through their own words or through valid historical resources). On the other-other hand, it must be recognized that setting too strict a filter will drop many queer people who lived at a time when it was almost impossible to be out. Jliberty 16:28, May 8, 2005 (UTC)
First, the above statement is NOT neutral; it implies a subjective interpretation of what "GLB" is. I strongly disagree that people involved in natural "same-gender" relationships are NOT GL or B. If the bottom line is that being "homosexual" or "gay" is an orientation, then what matters is not subjective interpretation of that orientation but whether they were so oriented.
Also, it should be noted that for GLB people, it can be a point of understanding to see real historical figures that were gay but had to deal with it discreetly. That doesn't mean label everyone you want (i.e. Abe Lincoln) as gay, just to have a bigger umbrella (i.e. redefine people in our own image). However, take for example King Henry III of France (ruled 1574-1589). He was widely rumored to be gay. He dressed in women's clothing and wore earrings. He had sleepovers with boys he called "darlings" (he himself was not that old). He was cold to his wife and produced no children. So strong was the assumption that he was gay that Paris rose in open revolt in 1588 (also related to his not being pro-Catholic enough). He was also treated as a "wimp": Duke Henry of Guise tried to push him around and publicly scoffed at the notion that Henry III could do anything to him. Yet Henry III had Henry, Duke of Guise assassinated in 1588. In this sense, he was a "hero" standing up to a bully. As to denials, the writers of the time strongly hinted that Henry III liked males, not females...Likewise, it could easily be documented that James I of England was at least bisexual, engaging in same-sex affairs with "favorites" such as the Duke of Buckingham, "scandalizing" England at the time. Unlike Henry III, King James was also known to sleep with women, but the umbrella term "likely to be gay or bisexual" would certainly fit here. It would also fit the argument that people were "homosexual" due to orientation, not just the social situation of the time; it was easier for a person of power..."Divine Right of Kings"...to live out their fantasies than for the commoner who might be executed if "caught in the very act." Since one of the arguments against gay/homosexual people is that they just "emerged recently" and "chose their orientation," by documenting a long historical trail of evidence of homosexual and bisexual behavior, this notion can be defeated. The prevailing thoughts of then or now should not be overplayed; the facts should come to the fore. Thus, we know today that U.S. President James Buchanan and vice president William R. King very likely engaged in homosexual behavior, but remained closeted due to the times. It would be WRONG for us to assume what they would do or say if alive today, so all we can do is note their actions and the reactions of the times. Finally, this list, if inclusive of historical figures, might just educate today's population a little more beyond the self-centered approach of thinking they were the "first" to do just about everything, when in fact many before were in similar situations. 172.169.17.120 03:47, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
That's not a good enough reason to break NPOV by including people whose LBG status is disputed. If this was a famous list of people who have had same-gender relationships, that would be different. It isn't such a list. Martin
I moved this from the archive, because I still feel this way - perhaps more so now we've apparently decided to scrap "disputed" folks. There's a real element of anachronism in calling Socrates gay, isn't there? Martin 21:42, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)
It seems to me that this list should include a separate section on historical figures (prior to the 20th century) and those people should be removed from the other sections. - Acjelen 02:35, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
In the spirit of editing in a bold manner, I would like to remove all of the names that are not associated with individual articles (all of the names in red). Since the article is titled famous and the intro clearly says evidence should be provided in order to defend the project against possible legal problems, these names cannot possibly be supported by facts without articles, right? Hopefully, each of the names I will list below can have at least a stub created, and the names can then stay on the list. Otherwise, I will remove them. Any objections?
Disagree. This may simply imply that the person who listed them didn't know how to link them to an existing article, or didn't have time or bother to write a new one. Surely Joan Jett is FAMOUS. This list should be dealt with on a pro bono basis, not carte blanche. 172.169.17.120 03:54, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
The next step would be to remove and/or (preferably) remedy those names that have articles, but whose articles make no mention of the person being lesbigay. For those of you asking, "Who died and made her queen?" (Sorry, bad pun.) Feel free to suggest better ways to keep this list both relevant and encyclopedic, but it’s in pretty sorry shape right now. -- Paige 21:11, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with removing the red links. Why? Wiki is an evolving concept where people today, next week, next month, next year are adding articles. Because there is no article about someone today does not mean they are famous. It simply means no-one has written about them yet. Maybe no-one who knows about Irish actors has got around to writing about Hilton Edwards yet but he was a world famous founder of an internationally renounced theatre. No-one wrote about most Irish prime ministers until I came along. Does that mean they were not famous until I wrote about them? It is an absolutely absurd idea. Under no circumstances should people be removed from the list simply because on 18th September 2003 no-one had gotten around to writing about them yet. FearÉIREANN 00:09, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I've removed a nonsensical claim that only people with articles on wiki should be added on the list. No such policy exists on lists and Paige cannot decide to make up her own policy on this page.
Re the above: there is no article yet on Vincent Hanley, but I can confirm 100% that he was gay. (An ex-boyfriend of his is a friend of mine and Vincent's sexuality was an open secret in the broadcasting world and in the gay scene but as homosexual behaviour was still criminalised and gay people subject to discrimination, he could not come out. He moved to the US where tragically he got Aids.) There is no article yet on Micheal MacLiammoir, but there is not a single solitary person on the planet who knows anything about him who thinks he was straight. If he was, it would come as a bit of a shock to his boyfriend of sixty years. Any attempt to remove many clearly accurate statements on the dubious basis that no one had gotten around to writing an article yet will be reverted. FearÉIREANN 00:41, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)
The idea that someone should be removed from a list of gay people by someone because their article doesn't mention they are gay is pretty stupid. And removing true information without any reason to suspect it is wrong and without making the slightest attempt to check it is pretty arrogant. But I guess we will just have to stick "gay" in so that ignorant people don't try to wipe gay people out of the wikipedia then. -- Outerlimits
I strongly object. When I argued on Talk:Homosexual bishop that the articles of people listed on that page made no mention of their homosexuality, I was told that it wasn't necessary. We can't have it both ways. RickK
Much less fuss that way, I would think. Sorry if your intentions were in fact honourable: they didn't read that way to me at first. I find it peculiar that some people seem to feel that the statement "Danny Pintauro is gay" needs more "explanation" or "sourcing" than the statement that "Princess Stephanie of Monaco has two children born out of wedlock by her bodyguard, whom she later married, then divorced when he was photographed having sexual intercourse with "Miss Bare Breasts of Belgium", and a third child born out of wedlock by yet another bodyguard, had a sexual relationship with a married elephant tamer, travelling with her children in his circus caravan for three months, had dalliances with a bartender, her father's major domo, and her father's gardener, and has just married a Portuguese circus acrobat by whom she is pregnant" -- Outerlimits 09:11, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Have removed Chris Smith (UK politician) from the unconfirmed list. Graham :) 14:17, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)
What is Laurence Olivier doing on the unconfirmed list? His own widow, Joan Plowright, confirms that he was bisexual, as do people in the acting world who knew of his longterm sexual relationship with the American actor Danny Kaye - Plowright denied accepting the blame for the breakup of Olivier's second marriage, stating that all through his marriage to Vivien Leigh he had been unfaithful with both women and men, but alongside his marriage to Leigh he had a longterm homosexual affair with Kaye, that relationship lasted longer than any of Olivier's marriages. FearÉIREANN 00:41, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Two more on the unconfirmed list: Ronnie Kray (one half of the Kray twins) was gay and fairly open about his sexual orientation, though I don't think there's any need to add 'and Ronnie was gay' to the Krays page and an individual profile for each twin would only repeat much of what is already written and take up unnecessary bandwidth. The other one on the unconfirmed list is Michael Jackson. The only thing that's happened in his life that alludes to an alternative sexuality was that he was alledged to have molested some kids. He hasn't done anything else to warrant the association and to be honest I'd rather not have alledged paedophilia associated with homosexuality any more than it is already in the minds of the bigots. Unless anyone has any objections I'll remove both from the list. Graham :) 17:25, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)
In the interests of keeping this talk page up to date, have removed Samuel Barber, Montgomery Clift, Gustav V of Sweden, Ernst Roehm, Johann Joachim Winckelmann, Virginia Woolf and W Somerset Maugham from the unconfirmed list above as they have all reappeared in their appropriate sections on the article. I also propose removing all those from the second list above that actually do have articles that have been written about them (the purpose of the list was that they were red links) and to keep the list updated with new red links from the article. Graham :) 12:39, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Updated the red links list above, added the disputed characters in the main article Graham :) 01:40, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I think this is a really really stupid page to have in Wikipedia. Since Wikipedia articles are from the Neutral Point of View, there should also be a "Famous Heterosexual People" page. This line of reasoning can be also followed to turn around traditional Western country minority groups to create a "Famous White People of Cameroon" page since most everyone in Cameroon would not be cosidered white.
IF you don't like this page, go somewhere else. If you want to make a list of "Famous Heterosexual People" or "Famous White People," who is stopping you? Certainly not me. The point is, that "gay" or homosexual people are an historically-persecuted minority, and that part of that pesecution is denial of who they are. Thus, King Edward I of England or King Henry III of France were ostracized for being who they are. One can only imagine what happened to the common people who tried the same thing, if the king had trouble "getting away with it." Also, an article must have reader interest and relevance. How many people want to read about "famous white people in Cameroon?" Try it and see. 172.169.17.120 04:22, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Not if it is a list of minority or exceptional people. For example, "list of centenarians." "List of Kings of England." It is in fact very historical and traditional to create lists of people by category. Before the internet age, many volumes of books like Biography Index were devoted to such. 172.169.17.120 04:22, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
A list of famous people who have admitted to having homosexual experience is weird.
That in itself is a POV! 172.169.17.120 04:22, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
A list of famous people whose fame usually has nothing to do with homosexuality, but might have been, or probably or even certainly were or are homosexual, is many times worse than that.
Why is it "worse?" Your persecutorial attitude merely proves the need for such a list. Always trying to hide the facts. 172.169.17.120 04:22, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
But a list of famous people who at one time or another have been listed by gay and lesbian lists of gays and lesbians, some of which are admittedly unconfirmed, is the bottom of the barrel: and that's what this is. It is idiotic, and I think that everyone here knows it. Mkmcconn 15:39, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Au contraire, scholarly efforts to confirm or at least find supporting evidence for these claims have been attempted...far more than you have tried. If anything, this list is still anti-gay biased because probably-gay people who merely denied their homosexuality publicly (but privately are) are often excluded, as are people with not enough convincing evidence...i.e. "straight-acting gays." Richard Chamberlain didn't "come out" until he was 69, but people knew long before. 172.169.17.120 04:22, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Look in the mirror! I see plenty of bitterness, anxiety, personal insecurity and opinion in your post. FACT: Elton John said he was gay. OK? 172.169.17.120 04:22, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Count me among those who know that the List of people who realise a list of heterosexuals is ridiculous is longer than the List of people who realise a list of homosexuals is ridiculous. -- Outerlimits 01:49, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)
It is basic common sense to create lists of minorities. It is monumentally absurd to create lists of majorities. No-one in their right mind would propose List of people who have never been President of the United States or List of people who have never married a British Royal. But List of people who have been President of the United States or List of people who have married a British Royal is patently sensible. It is about a small sub-group of society. List of famous gay, lesbian and bisexual people is similarly sensible, in that it lists a clearly defined sub-category of people. List of heterosexuals, in that it covered 90%+ of the population is patiently absurd. It is elementary common sense. I'm surprised some people cannot see that. FearÉIREANN 23:05, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Whoever put that name in there, did it without review of whether it belonged there. Deletion of the name was reverted by later editors presumptively, awaiting "proof" - that's what makes this page ridiculous. Just because Aquinas wrote against homosexuality, does not mean that he wasn't "gay": do you really not see that? You cannot prove that someone is not gay. You must prove that they are. Mkmcconn 18:23, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I can't find any evidence that Solon is gay. I would remove the name, but I'm pretty sure any changes I make will be reverted. Also why is Britney Spears listed under 'debated'? Drolsi Susej
I'm in favor of a List of homosexual/bi/lesbian list and opposed to a similar heterosexual list. Its too bad that this page, rather than being an encyclopedic index, is just another stupid effort to get as many people as possible on it no matter how flimsy the justification to make some sort of point. Its pointless to try and fix this page and make it worthy, all the questionable entries merely dilute its worth. Probably best to leave it to its proponents as a monument to failed lists. Ark30inf 05:34, 10 Oct 2003 (UTC)
JiL: please make a comment on this diff. Like, now. Stevertigo's getting shirty. -- Tim Starling 03:16, Oct 11, 2003 (UTC)
Plato should be removed from the list, or at least moved to the 'debated' section since he was a pedophile (note that the designations pedophile and homosexual are modern inventions). Also
Julius Caesar should be removed from the list, or at least moved to the 'debated' section since the accusation of homosexuality were rumors spread to defame Caesar. For instance after Caesar went to Nicomedes, the king of Bithynia, to obtain a fleet of ships; Caesar was successful, but subsequently he became the butt of gossip that he had persuaded the king (a homosexual) only by agreeing to sleep with him. Ancient gossip does not automatically mean someone was a homosexual, especially since the accuracy of the gossip us questionable since it was spread by his politcial enemies.
Drolsi Susej 02:22, 12 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I removed Christina Aguilera & Britney Spears, however Antonio Martin put them back on the list. The burden of ""proof"" should be on those who add people to the list; please post evidence that Christina Aguilera & Britney Spears are (homo|bi)sexual. Drolsi Susej 05:23, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
It is absurd to put Solon, Aristotle, Plato and Alexander on a list of "gay" people. The concept "gay" is ridiculously ahistorical when applied to people from a society which had a radically different understanding of sexuality than our own. If those four were "gay" then so was every other figure from ancient Greek history, and quite a lot from Roman history as well.
Also how did this hideous non-word lesbigay get into an encyclopaedia?
Adam 14:05, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
-- Mirv 07:01, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)