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Archive 1 |
Someone (I can't remember who) was busy adding names of various founders of religions to the Muhammad page, and I decided that it made more sense to just link to one page. I'm not sure that this is a good idea (what's major?) but hey, if it unclutters one page ...
Should I include Scientology or shouldn't I? If we start to get into what might be called recently founded religions (sects, cults), we could end up with a list of hundreds of names, many of whom are the fearless leader of only a handful of people. Zora 14:20, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I have no problem accepting 150,000 as the cut off (having looked at the adherents.com website) - but I would like to keep the definition of 'major' specific. Saying the other two religions probably had quite huge followings isn't enough. I shan't remove them for now, but will await your comments.OK, this is the list on adherents.com - which says it takes its figures from what the respective religions claim.
jguk 22:54, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've got an idea -- there is already a List of religions on which many electrons have been spilled. Link that to the list of founders page, with a note to the effect that many religions have no non-mythical founders. Zora 00:17, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Someone from an anonymous IP added Joseph Smith (Mormonism). I removed this as a difficult and unclassifiable case. First of all, Mormon is a nickname -- the official name is Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints. If Mormons want to refer to their church in shorthand, they'll say LDS, usually. Second, Mormons would insist that they are Christians and that their religion was founded by Jesus. They give a special status to Joseph Smith, but I'm not sure that they would call him the founder of a major religion. They would probably say that he RESTORED a corrupted Christianity -- in which case he'd have the same status as Luther or Calvin. We aren't putting founders of sects in the list, so I think it would be better to avoid Joseph Smith. Zora 02:04, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Dear anon, I deleted your addition of Adi Shankara. I agree that he's an extremely important person, but he really can't be called the founder of Hinduism if he started just one school of thought inside an existing tradition. Zora 04:30, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I reverted to the older version, with all the caveats. Babawaba, these caveats are necessary if the list is to be NPOV. Frex, saying that Muhammad founded Islam is wrong, in the eyes of Muslims. Insisting that the caveat be removed is insensitive. Ditto for a lot of the other caveats. I make this point as a Buddhist; I don't belong to any of the religions that would insist on the caveats. It's not as if the list were extremely long; we have the space to add a few words. Zora 02:22, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I had changed the article by putting that according to Muslims Islam was started by Adam and not Muhammad. What I want to understand is that, what is that you consider as correct. A generally held misconception that Islam was started by Muhammad, or the truth where Islam actually came to an end with Muhammad, because he was the last and final messenger of more than 300,000 sent on earth. Alimustafakhan
Doesn't Islam center around Muhammad's teachings? If so then he is considered the founder. Anker99 01:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I think an important correction needs to be made. Christianity was not started by Jesus. Jesus himself was a Jew for his entire life. Chrisitianity was started by Paul.
I agree... Jesus did not start Christianity. This should be corrected. Shane 09:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
We keep having this argument over and over again. Anon, YOU may believe that Jesus lived and died a Jew, but Christians don't believe that. I'm not a Christian, BTW, I'm a Buddhist, and I would admit that it's possible that the historical Jesus was something other than the personage claimed by Christians. But this is not the place to argue that. If people click on Jesus or Christianity they're going to find the controversy. We don't need to present it here. This list is just a convenience for high-school kids doing reports for their world religions class :) It helps people find important religious figures. It is not the world court of who actually founded a certain religion. Zora 04:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
If I'm not mistaken but doesn't Christianity "center" around his teachings? Anker99 01:45, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Another technical correction. Though Judaism is based on the teachings on Abraham, Judaism actually starts with Abraham's grandson Jacob AKA Israel. If we are to say that Judaism starts with Abraham, then we would be saying that both of Abraham's sons are jews and had the chosen blood. This would include Ishmael and his decendents (the Arabs). Therefore, Judaism and the Hebrew people started with Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham.
First we have a Muslim insisting that Muhammad did not "found" Islam, now we have someone insisting that Jesus didn't "found" Christianity and Abraham didn't "found" Judaism. This list is falling to pieces because the concept of "founding" seems to be inherently difficult in the context of religion.
I suggest that we change the page title and the header text. How about Biographical articles concerning significant figures in major religions or some such thing, and allow, um, five people per tradition?
Or perhaps we should just delete the #@$%#$@% page. If you limit the people to five, you have endless flamewars about who's the most important five. If you don't have any limit, you end up with an endlessly long page with entries like "Rev. X, who founded the Assemblies of God church in Y". Zora 02:07, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) (who is feeling kinda discouraged right now)
The title of the page is "List of founders of major religions" not "major churches" or "congregations" or something else to that effect.
As 62.* points out, Jesus did indeed found Christianity while St. Paul merely founded the first organized church around it. There are a number of separate congregations that follow the teachings of Christ and as such can be said to be Christians. Most of them, but not all, trace their roots back to the church founded by St. Paul (the Catholic church and all the other churches that broke off from that at some point in history).
So yes - this entry should read Jesus Christ.
Besides, the order of the entries seems to be alphabetized by the name of the founder for the first half of the list or so and then by the name of the religion for the second. This should probably be fixed. Thomas Horsten 23:23, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I firmly believe that christianity is simply Mithraism-light as interpreted by Jesus. The "miracles" of Jesus clearly didn't happen so they should be seen as inventions of the gospel writers. The birth stories of Luke and Matthew don't even agree with each other and should be assumed to be apocryphal. Then there was Saul of Tarsus, who was more important to Christianity than Jesus. Without Saul the Christian sect would have died out as another failed Jewish messianic cult. No, without Saul the gentiles would not have been hooked. And to do that he had to remove the cumbersome Jewish cleanliness protocols. So I don't think there could be any one founder of Christianity. I doubt any religion has any one founder. I pick on Christianity because I know it best, being an apostate. -- metta, The Sunborn 16:01, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Jesus didn't found Christianity. It appears that the majority here are in agreement on that fact. Should we change the article to: a) Paul b) Christianity is an interpretation of Mithraism
Shane 08:17, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
We should aspire to be more encyclopedic, and only include facts that are supported by evidence. All the evidence points to the fact that christianity started many years after the death of jesus. SO he can't be the founder of a religion that didn't exist in his lifetime. Maybe we should have a separate list of religions inspired by people. 203.143.238.107 08:14, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Mormonism is listed separately and as such is considered a separate religion from Christianity. I don't know if this should be the case. They, Mormons, have a doctrine that is much off the wall from 'mainstream' Christianity but I doubt that they are any less Christian. As such whould probably be removed from a separate entry. -- The Sunborn
Jguk arrived and changed everything to his prefered BC. I changed back. He reverted.
I've changed everything to BC/BCE. It's not showing up correctly, but at least it's an even-handed solution. Someone can fix the Wikipedia dating system so that BC = BCE = BC/BCE. Zora 18:45, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
There seems to be a lot of discussion as to who should be included in this list mostly because of the title being "List of Founders of Major World Religions". I would suggest the title be changed to "List of Important Figures of Major World Religions" or something similar. For example, Christianity was founded on the teachings of Jesus but he is also an important prophet in Islam, which this list doesn't reflect (although he is on the list of prophets of Islam). I think a name change would end a lot of the debate. -- Negative3 18:52, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I think this would expand the list infinitely and render it largely useless (that is, if it is inherently useful!) With such an exhaustive list, it would be more rational to create separate pages for each religion. At least in the cases of Hinduism, Judaism and Christianity (the only ones I have much knowledge of), these lists would be very long. -- Slow Graffiti 19:30, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the recently added reference to Fox ( founder of the Quakers ), as he founded a denomination within Christianity, and not a new religion. This is consistent with the main article on Quakers treating Fox and his heirs as part of the broad Christian tradition. I'm very sympathetic to the idea that we should provide a way of understanding the different denominations within each broad religious tradition, but this article doesn't seem to be the place to do it ( pages on the individual religions generally describe the main denominations ). In deleting Fox ( and, earlier, restoring Joseph Smith per earlier discussion on this page ) I've tried to have in mind what a user with no prior knowledge of religion would find useful when viewing this page. That Fox and Smith were both important people is not in doubt, but the fruits of their actions were in some sense different, and my aim is to reflect this. I'm adding a sentence at the bottom of the article to try to clarify this. WMMartin 17:18, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
WMMartin appears to have little appreciation of how Quakers see themselves, including the fact that within Quakerism itself, the Quaker faith is understood as a new and vital tradition that is more a break with and something distinct from traditional Christianity than Latter-day Saints view themselves as. Be that as it may, I'll be perfectly content to not try to add Fox to this page, even though from a theological and sociological perspective, his inclusion is more proper than that of Joseph Smith. People unaware of this would do well to read the Wikipedia articles about Quakers. Interested readers are also referred to, well, just about any boko written by Quakers in the last 40 years. It does a disservice to George Fox and to Quakers generally to classify him as simply in the same category as Martin Luther or John Wesley, or even Joseph Smith, none of whom claimed to be anything but part of an already-founded religion. Because WMMartin need not fear that I'll try to add Fox, there is no reason to clutter up this page with a sentence that clearly belongs on the discussion page, and not on the article page: "Also note that in most religions there are several different traditions or denominations, which may have evolved or been founded at different times, by different people and in different places. These are described in the main articles for each religion." This sentence may well belong with a page providing a definition of what a "denomination" is, but it only clutters up a once-clean, and appealing-looking page whose purpose is to list religion founders.
First of all, I'd like to thank WMMartin for trying to find the right solution to this question, and for posting a request for help on the Quaker talk page asking for help finding clarity on this discussion. You've touched on a rather sizable debate within Quakerism itself so others may disagree, but I'll provide my 2 cents. I don't believe George Fox had any intention of forming a religion, other than a refounding of the early Christian church. Any movement toward creating a non-Christian religion or movement happened later, and despite the intentions of Fox. Personally I don't feel it makes sense for Fox to be listed on this page, nor do I believe he would want to be seen as in equivalent to the other religious leaders listed here (particularly those from the Judeo-Christian tradition. -- Ahc 00:47, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Both of these have more members than Scientology according to reliable sources. Ahmadiyya is a kind of Islam, but separate enough to count if Mormonism is going to count. Also the Jehovah Witnesses, according to most estimates, are also larger than Scientology. Should I add their founders too?-- T. Anthony 04:01, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Going by the above information they are apparently fairly large.-- T. Anthony 05:31, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
There are estimated to be 6 million of them. However I'm not sure if them or the Mormons should be listed. Aren't they both Christian denominations? Unusual ones perhaps, but still.-- T. Anthony 14:04, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
I think I would remove both Mormonism and 'JW' because they are denominations, sects - whatever term you would like to use - within Christianity. It doesn't mean that other Christians recognize them as fellow Christians. The important factor is self belief - they believe themselves to be Christians, and would claim Abraham, Moses, and Jesus as the founders of their religion. I'm sure there are similar separations amongst Hindus and perhaps other religions that differ just as much - Vaishnavism and Shaktism differ even on who they acknowledge as Supreme Brahman (as I understand it). Joseph Smith and Charles Russell did not 'found' their religions - they started their own reformations. These reformations may have separated them from contemporary Christians, but not from their common founders. As someone stated above, Luther and Calvin would be on the same plane. Thoughts? -- Slow Graffiti 21:06, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I missed the 'Are Mormons Christians?' exchange above prior to writing these comments. It puts their inclusion more into perspective, but I'd still like more feedback about the issue. -- Slow Graffiti 21:13, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I'd be for that removal. I'm mostly willing to be broad in my interpretation of what religions are Christian. I'd accept Mormons, JWs, Christian Science, and even early Unitarians as Christians. ( UUA, some Hicksites, and a few others I would not class as Christians as they seem to not class themselves that way)-- T. Anthony 04:25, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
In China, Confucianism was a part of politic in the history and it is some kind of culture remains today. Today you almost can't find some Chinese "believe" Confucianism, because Confucianism is not a religion. Besides, in fact there was hardly relation between Confucian or Confucianism according history record. It's just like most people believe Frankstein was the monster today.
In China, Confucianism was a part of politic in the history and it is some kind of culture remains today. Today you almost can't find some Chinese "believe" Confucianism, because Confucianism is not a religion. Besides, in fact there was hardly relation between Confucius and Confucianism according history record. It's just like most people believe Frankstein was the monster today. -- Gleader 19:25, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
It seems somewhat POV to use Christian dating (before Christ) for all the earlier figures. Wouldn't BCE be better? as at least showing that we're trying? Zora 04:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I find the list to look a bit cluttered. I wonder if it should be broken up in some way, or converted to a table? Шизомби 09:33, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
"The following figures are believed to have founded major religions or to have been the first codifiers or best known proponents of older traditions. In some cases, little or nothing is known of the figures; the dates are conjectures and some historians doubt that the founder, as described, ever existed."
Krishna cannot be considered a founder of Hinduism, although is indeed a major part of the religion. Calling Krishna a prophet is incorrect, seeing as in Hinduism he is viewed as a God, usually as an avatar of Vishnu (or Vishnu as an avatar of Krishna, it varies)
I am removing it for the moment, please comment. Sfacets 00:45, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I have removed Scientology from the list. It cannot be considered major, 500,000 adherants (adherants.com) is far too few to make this a major religion. Sfacets 01:53, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Rather than get into a revert war, please find a reliable source to back your claims. Sfacets 02:55, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think "adherents" is a good way to do this article. Perahps, define a major religion by influence. Scientology has very little influence in the world. I wouldn't oppose the inclusion of Scientology however. 12.220.94.199 23:31, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Scientology can't be considered a church or religion for they have no God(s) that they worship because if I'm not mistaken but dont religions and churchs worship God(s). Anker99 20:14, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
According to the list above in the discussion article there are about "600 thousand" members. So can Scientology be considered more of a "cult" then a full on religion? Anker99 01:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there any reason Scientology was re-added? I am removing it again until a rationale can be brought forward. Sfacets 11:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
How can Moses be the founder, if Judaism already existed when he was around? At least 400 years before in fact...
We have weasel words at the top about "founder or first codifier". Moses could be considered the first codifier. Zora 09:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Even if you say Moses and the giving of the Torah are the founding of Judaism, the dating is all wrong. According to traditional Jewish dating the revelation on Mt. Sinai took place in the Hebrew year 2448 which correlates to 1313 BCE, making Judaism's "founding" in the 14th century. HOWEVER, there is a difference of 163 years between traditional Jewish dating and secular dating. Traditional Jewish dating has the destruction of the First Temple in 423 BCE while in secular dating it correlates to 586 BCE. Thus, using secular dating, the revelation at Sinai should be dating to 1467 BCE, the 15th century. I won't edit the article, but I suggest for the purpose of accuracy the article be changed to the 14th century (based on Jewish dating) or on 15th century based on secular dating. - Nate —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.17.146.166 ( talk) 17:17, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to remove Mary Baker Eddy and Wallace Fard. They did not create/found a new religion, they were in the category of sects or movements within religions. All the other people on the list actually founded a new religion, and claimed some sort of superhuman status, however you want to call it. Cuñado - Talk 20:38, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Because it is less ambigious and we will be arguing until the cows come home as to what constitutes a "Major" religion.-- CltFn 03:00, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I have added Christian Science and it's founder to the list since it is quite clear that this is a religion separate from Christianity. It is only fair since the Unification Church and Mormonism's founders are also on the list. The Fading Light 03:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
IshmaelBlues is continuing to remove the entry for Confucious, without justifying this, and, it seems to me, without reading the list of caveats at the bottom, one of which is that some people say that Confucianism is NOT a religion. It's arguable -- after all, Confucianism believes in a "Heaven" that requires the proper performance of religious rituals for the land to prosper. However, that is argued in the article to which we link. I think that in a borderline case such as this, it's better to include the tradition (which is, after all, followed by millions) and make it clear that it's disputed. Zora 08:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Wasn't Krishna the founder of the Hindu Religion? Anker99 20:10, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Adam was not the founder of a religion , he was a character in the mythology of Judaism and Christianity . And if you mention Adam , then you might as well mention Eve. -- CltFn 13:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Adam is a fictional character, there is no evidence that he existed and most major religions consider him mythological, so I removed him. 203.143.238.107 08:02, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
If this edit is going to stay, then the page title should be List of founders of religions. We went over this discussion months ago. Most of those listed are not world religions, since they are isolated to a small geographical area or ethnic group. Also, Mary Baker Eddy founded a sect of Christianity, not a religion. She should be removed regardless. Cuñado - Talk 15:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Eve would have to be one of the co-founders of the Abrahamic religions would she not.-- CltFn 23:39, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes, she is not considered to be a founder or one of the founders by any major religion. Sfacets 23:52, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
It does, but then it isn't up to us to say that she is part f the foundation or not, it is up to the religion(s) in question. Sfacets 23:57, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Was Cao Dai removed because it's a local religion limited to Vietnam and Vietnamese immigrants? Because it numbers about 2 million. It might be as international as Christian Science, although limited more in ethnic terms.-- T. Anthony 09:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Many people consider him notable and he undoubtedly influenced culture. WerewolfSatanist 20:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I've added Chaitanya Mahaprabhu as the founder of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Other prominent Hindu denominations should be added in, I believe — for Hinduism is a collective term for a great variety of denominations that are, for all their doctrinal differences, for all practical purposes distinct and separate religions. — Raga 11:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
In an introductory lecture on the origin of the Vedas to Europeans in 1865, the German Indologist Max Muller said, "In no country, I believe, has the theory of revelation been so minutely elaborated as in India. The name for revelation in Sanskrit is Sruti, which means hearing; and this title distinguished the Vedic hymns and, at a later time, the Brahmanas also, from all other works, which however sacred and authoritative to the Hindu mind, are admitted to have been composed by human authors. The Laws of Manu, for instance, are not revelation; they are not Sruti, but only Smriti, which means recollection of tradition. If these laws or any other work of authority can be proved on any point to be at variance with a single passage of the Veda, their authority is at once overruled. According to the orthodox views of Indian theologians, not a single line of the Veda was the work of human authors. The whole Veda is in some way or the other the work of the Deity; and even those who saw it were not supposed to be ordinary mortals, but beings raised above the level of common humanity, and less liable therefore to error in the reception of revealed truth. The views entertained by the orthodox theologians of India are far more minute and elaborate than those of the most extreme advocates of verbal inspiration in Europe. The human element, called paurusheyatva in Sanskrit, is driven out of every corner or hiding place, and as the Veda is held to have existed in the mind of the Deity before the beginning of time..." For quotation see: "Chips from a German Workshop" by Max Muller, Oxford University Press, 1867 - Chapter 1: "Lecture on the Vedas or the Sacred Books of the Brahmans, Delivered at Leeds, 1865", pages 17-18.
FYI, Vaishnavism was founded around the persona of Krishna, 3100BC according to traditional astronomical dating. However, Vaishnavism as a major religious movement was founded in India around 600BC, according to the Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan's History of India (in 11 volumes), 11th edition 1996 Hulagu 00:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)Hulagu
The whole disclaimer at the bottom strikes me as pretty unencyclopedic. If people care about Wikipedia's policies, they should check the policy pages.
I'm sure that can all be rephrased in a slightly less... sycophantic manner, no? For example, just mention that some religions don't consider their founder a "founder", and leave it at that. -- π! 10:45, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
There can be only 1 founder - Lord Rishabha or Mahavira, not both.-- Redtigerxyz 17:16, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
since there is only a dozen (super-)traditions widely recognized as " world religions", and most list entries went beyond these already, I suggest it is best to expand the scope to "notable religious philosophies, traditions and denominations". This also avoids the tired "Muhammad is not the founder of Islam" debate. new religious movements are a dime a dozen, however, and we should either demand minimal notability (say, more than 20,000 adherents), or delegate these to a separate article. dab (𒁳) 10:01, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Because, the first section placed him in the Axial Age of founders, and I do not see a religious tradition based solely around Socrates. I replaced his name with Solomon, if only because there is mention of him in the article and the time period (~1000-900 BCE) is early enough to fit with Buddha and the others there. Notostraca 03:28, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Nanak is the first of the ten Sikh gurus, but that does not mean that he founded it. As the word is usually understood, founding a religion means separating it from the other ones, and Nanak definitely never separated his followers from Muslims or Hindus. In fact, many of Nanak's practices were things that were eventually forbidden once Sikhism was founded - for example, fasting and going on pilgrimages. I believe that it was the last Guru who separated Sikhism from Islam and Hinduism. Epa101 ( talk) 22:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Since this list apparently includes the founder of every major Protestant denomination, I've added Ellen G. White (Seventh-day Adventism) and Charles Parham (Pentecostalism). Should policy change and all the other major Christian denomination leaders removed, such as John Calvin, Joseph Smith, and Henry VIII, then feel free to take these two additions out as well. ( NorthernFalcon ( talk) 22:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC))
Marwa Itani
I want you to remove this pictures because God will put us in fier please follow islam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.6.55.194 ( talk) 14:32, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I went ahead and added Moses as the founder of Judaism. Abraham and the Israelites before the Exodus may have worshipped YHWH, but they didn't have the Torah which [I'd say] is the main part of Judaism. I don't know whether to leave Solomon there, because if you consider Moses the founder, Solomon didn't play a big part in changing the religion, but since Ezra is in there I figured I'd leave both of them. Maybe both of them should be removed. 12.217.230.194 ( talk) 13:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The founders have been listed in historical, date of birth order. Please help keep it that way when adding new entries, both for consistency and to make it easier for readers. • Astynax talk 18:50, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Latter Day Saints aren't included in this list, or am I mistaken. Lilaac ( talk) 22:31, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Why is Peter in the list? I understand why Paul is, but Peter (If anything should Peter and Paul not share the same box? Perhaps it could say. Peter and Paul, Paul codified Jesus Teachings along with Peter, the early Church leader.) I say this because Peter's teachings are not any different from Paul's or indeed known in any great detail. Peter did not found Catholicism it was the religion of Paul also- there is no such thing as Petrine Christianity... Gavin ( talk) 21:44, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
What I have done is merge Peter and Paul as they both followed Pauline Christianity (inclusion of the gentiles, end of circumcision etc) so if anything they are co-founders of the Pauline school of thought which has largely become modern Christianity. I have also added James the Just who is the one who opposed Peter and Paul on certain issues and led the Jewish Christians movement. Gavin ( talk) 01:36, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
This is getting ridiculous, and this page is becoming a mess (and by the looks of this discussion page, has been for some time). The question of course is who do we list as the founder? The first main proponent from a historical perspective? The founder according to the religion itself? The prophet or the apprentice/prophet who wrote everything down and/or started the movement?
I suggest we list both, either in the Abraham/Muhammad format for Islam or Muhammad (Abraham) is some clear and consistent manner. I don't care which is first (religion's own idea of founder vs. outside/historical view), but it should be done consistently. Some example edits: Christianity = Jesus/Paul of Tarsus or Paul of Tarsus (Jesus) Mormanism = Jesus/Joseph Smith Sikhism = (???)/Guru Nanak (forgive my ignorance here on the Sikh view of founder)
Personally, I'd like to suggest the "First Proponant (Figurehead)" approach, akin to Plato (Socrates) and the relationship there, since most reading this page will belong to one religion only, and hence prefer the areligious historical view 90% of the time, and to avoid half the names being Jesus or Abraham. I'll give this a week so others can comment before I change the article. (August 7, 2008). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.85.251.170 ( talk) 19:59, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
we'll just list any individual identified as the founder of some religious tradition, what's the problem? Note that a "religious tradition" may well be a denomination or sect, such as Luther for Lutheranism. dab (𒁳) 18:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
What about Abraham, the Father of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, & Baha'i?-- 174.95.63.5 ( talk) 04:01, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Does this organization really belong on this page? The article for the organization represents it as a simple charitable foundation, rather than as a spiritual movement (IDing it as a nongovernmental organization, no listing of theological tenets, etc.). Seems like either this page or that one should change.-- 216.164.44.4 ( talk) 20:54, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Eastern Orthodoxy was not founded by any one person. It is a religious tradition inseparable from early Christianity. It is as absurd as proposing a "founder" for Roman Catholicism. Both Christian traditions have their ultimate foundations in the teachings of Jesus.
Ilion301 ( talk) 01:27, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
it isn't "absurd", it is exactly the sort of thing listed in this article, as explained in the lead. Or do you suppose that Lutheranism, Anglicanism, or any of the other Christian traditions listed do somehow not have "their ultimate foundations in the teachings of Jesus"? -- dab (𒁳) 09:25, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
-- None of you has a clue what Jesus of Nazareth actually said or did. But there's no question that Eastern Orthodox is just as old as Roman Catholicism. They were the same thing until the Great Schism of 1064. Look it up. 76.113.64.124 ( talk) 00:35, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Easily one of the most unique strains of Christianity ... but I didn't see it listed here. 76.113.64.124 ( talk) 00:36, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Rather than discussing various syntheses as to who founded what, this article would be better served by providing citations for the founders claimed for each of the religious traditions listed. The article must reflect sources. Existing articles and lists already have sources for most everything here, although this list isn't entirely consistent with those other articles. To get things rolling, I've put in a few citations for founders. • Astynax talk 08:09, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
of course all items listed need to be substantiated by the content of the article linked. As long as this is ensured, inserting references is just a matter of a copy-paste job from the linked article. Please feel free to (a) insert references for valid entres and (b) remove entries that are unsubstantiated. -- dab (𒁳) 11:47, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
if there is zoroaster we must include moses and zoroaster's historicity is much less than solomans Ishmaelblues ( talk) 14:17, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
if you read the Zoroaster and the Moses article, you will realize that this isn't the case.
The Old Avestan Gathas are composed by Zoroaster, making him exactly as historical as Homer: historical as the identity of the composer of an extant text. There are no texts by "Moses". The Pentateuch was compiled from oral tradition many centuries after the putative date of a potentially historical Moses. -- dab (𒁳) 14:47, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
both are mixed with legend if we include zoroaster we must include moses. Ishmaelblues ( talk) 18:25, 25 October 2009 (UTC) there are also portions of the bible supposedly composed by moses so again they are both semi legendary Ishmaelblues ( talk) 18:26, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
no, you don't understand. Please (please) read the Mosaic authorship and the Zoroaster articles. It is immaterial whether Zoroaster was "mixed with legend". Jesus, Buddha and hell even Luther and John Smith, were "mixed with legend". That is not the question. The question is, was there a tangible historical individual that later could be "mixed with legend" in the first place. -- dab (𒁳) 11:50, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
Why is it in Abraham's category, Baha'ism keeps being deleted? Baha'ism is an Abrahamic religion also. Baha'is trace their lineage to Abraham, via his children by Keturah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Splashen ( talk • contribs) 03:01, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
Judaism is the only religion that can actually be attributed to Abraham, though even that is a theological stretch. Nowhere in the Pentateuch is any claim made with regards to Abraham starting a new religion, rather it was Moses who set forth the law, which is the difference between Judaism and Islam. Christianity was founded By Jesus (Messiah) ben Joseph properly so. A religion is Founded by a person, irregardless of the claim to history. Moses founded Judaism, Christ founded Christianity, Muhammad founded Islam and Bahá'u'lláh founded Baha'i.
Acreditation again goes to the following: In Judaism the founding of the law is the founding of the Religion, thus Moses is the founder, though Abraham is the father of Isaac the father of Jacob who was named Israel. Baha'i traces it's origin to Abraham through lineage but sites no true founder beyond Bahá'u'lláh as Bahá'u'lláh claims to be of the blood line of Abraham. This claim is not that Abraham started the movement but that Bahá'u'lláh has a claim to his inheritance as a possible Messiah (forgetting about the Messiah coming from the house of David ben Jesse). On these grounds I will be Moving Judaism to Moses, and Baha'i to Bahá'u'lláh. Daniellis89 ( talk) 19:22, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
I removed two "founders" from the article. Enheduana was not the founder of the cult of Inanna, the cult was well established by the time she was appointed as priestess. She could be included in an article "first known followers of religious traditions", but this article is about founders.
Also, Pharaoh Ahmose did not found anything, the ancient Egyptian religion changed continually, with different gods gaining prominence in different periods. Ahmose was from Thebes, that city's god was Amun, that's why this god gradually became more important than others, but it was a long process, and his worship did not begin with Ahmose. "Quasi-monotheistic worship of Amun" is definitely incorrect. Apart from the Atenist reform, which didn't succeed, ancient Egypt was never monotheistic. – Alensha talk 20:26, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
I am suggesting the removal of "Haile Selassie" as the founder of Rastafarianism. I am basing this suggestion on the following.
[] Rastafarians believe Haile Selassie to be God. They chose him as their representation of God, however, he has never aligned himself with the Rastafarian religion. I believe that until his death, Haile Selassie claimed to be a Christian. Not to be daunted, Rastafarians continued in their claim that Haile Selassie is their God. An enlightening piece can be viewed here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdAXGmYRSlY.
[] It is said that the first person to suggest that Haile Selassie was God was Mortimer Planner (spelling errors possible). He has been credited as being the originator of Rastafarianism by many. However, discussing the founder of Rastafarianism may itself spark a "religious deabate".
There are quite a few books on the subject of Rastafarianism that may shed some light on this interesting religion. It is quite possible that Rastafarianism may be a class unto itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.252.220.90 ( talk) 09:54, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
This article is a bit of a mess. That is honestly understandable, given the rather required vagueness of the defining parameter. How exactly do we define "religious tradition" for the purposes of this article? For instance, would Handsome Lake qualify as the founder of his tradition, even if that tradition is, more or less, dead today? For that matter, what about Homer, who is thought to have perhaps founded the tradition of the Olympian gods? And, for that matter, what about Anthony of Egypt, the founder of the monastic movement in Christianity? Or Saint Dominic, founder of the tradition of the Dominican orders?
I honestly think that, while the list here is not a bad idea, it would be extremely helpful if we were able to come up with some set definition of terms of inclusion, otherwise it will basically always be subject to real and potential argument. John Carter ( talk) 18:51, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Various comments
I have questioned the inclusion in this listing of Sri Chinmoy because (i) the tradition does not figure as an article – the link to 'x' is to the article on the 24th letter of the alphabet –, (ii) having read the article on Sri Chinmoy, I consider that, whatever his impact as a person, he did not found or codify anything that could be considered a specific 'tradition' for the purposes of this article. Jpacobb ( talk) 00:13, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
Sri Chinmoy is founder of different modern parts of religion tradition. How meditation -> meditation centers ( worldwide), sport popular trough Challenging Impossibility a disciple from him Ashrita Furman or the World Harmony Run. -- Richard Reinhardt ( talk) 14:04, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
Or the founder of Self-Transcendence 3100 Mile Race. -- Richard Reinhardt ( talk) 17:10, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
This article tries to make a distinction between Vedic Religion and Classical Hinduism as being two separate religions. Further, in the tables there is no row for both Vedic Religion and Classical Hinduism.
Hinduism is a learning and evolving religion that has foundations in Vedas and draws from the Puranas. It it is incorrect to break Hinduism into two separate religions Vedic Religion and Classic Hinduism as this article purports.
Unlike western religion Hinduism is not bound by a single leader nor by a specific set of rules. It was and continues to be a tradition of beliefs that is evolving with the times. The term Hindu was applied in more recent times but the nomenclature has not disrupted the continuation of its tradition.
Hinduism is the foundation of Dharmic Religion and has significantly influenced Buddhist and Jain Religions and has also learnt from them and gone through several reformations in its long history.
It cannot be truly classified with religions that have a Single Spiritual Leader and specific written rules book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellasitis ( talk • contribs) 05:10, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Will add secondary sources as requested. Please allow some time. Also, see section below. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellasitis ( talk • contribs) 04:17, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
The wording of this paragraph seemed confusing and it contained a number of errors, including the following: Abraham was not a "founder" in the sense defined in this article (see Pico's edit); Lutheranism is a family of denominations, that is of specific ecclesial bodies (churches = denominations), each of which has its own shades of doctrine and practice and is self governing; Nestorius was not a "nestorian" and did not codify "Nestorianism" (see note to that effect in article). I have tried to put the essential main points without making statements which could well be questioned such as the inclusion in the list of "Pauline Christianity". Jpacobb ( talk) 01:05, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
User:Splashen has made recent edits which can be seen here These changes fall into three groups and I will comment them in turn, but first I want to ensure we are clear as to the meaning of "religious tradition". The lead section uses the word "denomination" which I take to be a synonym for tradition and to refer to a group of people with a specific religious identity and recognised at the time as such and identified by the founder's name by either the group itself or outsiders in general.
I fear that the post-1800 section of this article might become inflated by the inclusion of ephemeral movements. Here are a few initial thoughts as to how this might be avoided. The term "tradition" implies persistence in time, possibly second, third, and fourth generations. However, it would be an oversimplification to make duration the only criterion for inclusion: the Unification Church (Moonies) is a relatively recent but a widely diffused phenomenon and has been the subject of serious academic study. I suggest that the basic requirement for inclusion should be that of notability properly understood as having been the subject of academic attention. Some criteria which might normally be very relevant are questionable in this situation: (i) recognition by governments may simply be a right that any miniscule group can obtain on demand; (ii) mention in the media can be the consequence of the need for headlines. (ii) a string of web-sites as sources may simply be multiple sources related to the subject (?as in the case of Marshall Vian Summers?). Another entry which might be worth evaluating is Missionary Church of Kopimism. Jpacobb ( talk) 23:49, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Three different anonymous IPs have recently inserted this organisation at the end of the listing of "Founders of religious traditions", one of which has since been blocked. The entry has been removed by three different experienced editors (see here for details). The grounds for my action were and are "No evidence of notability". If this is reinserted I suggest as suitable protection for the page (¿no access for IPs, registered editors only?) Jpacobb ( talk) 18:26, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
Charles Taze Russell was NOT the founder of Jehova's Witnesses. He founded the Zion's Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society and it operated under this name until his death in 1916. Then the movement underwent some divisions, giving rise to a number of post-Russelian groups. One of the groups that emerged was led by JF Rutherford who only adopted the name "Jehova's Witnesses" in 1931. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.254.223.28 ( talk) 10:20, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
There is no historical or archaeological evidence of Abraham. This article is for characters that if they existed, should remove its name.
/info/en/?search=Abraham#Historicity_and_origins
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.79.194.90 ( talk) 19:58, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
The israeli people have his history since 1200 b.c. the bible since 745 b.c. and judaism since 586 b.c.
/info/en/?search=History_of_Israel /info/en/?search=Yahweh /info/en/?search=Dating_the_Bible — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.79.194.90 ( talk) 02:44, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
So, first off, those dates are not remotely correct, maybe. I don't know what the hell "A.C." is. "After Christ" maybe? Secondly, articles on THIS WIKI date earliest Hebrew occupation of Israel to the late 2nd millennium BCE, a mere half a millennium before your dates. The pagers you linked do not support your claims in the slightest. I don't know what to tell you. 67.85.35.183 ( talk) 02:56, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, i'm speak spanish, my english is basic. But israeli people exist since 1200 b.C. is archaeological — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.79.194.90 ( talk) 02:59, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
Ah, okay then. Then I guess you're right then. 67.85.35.183 ( talk) 03:09, 7 July 2016 (UTC)″
But judaism is since around to 586 b.C. /info/en/?search=Judaism#History — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.79.194.90 ( talk) 03:10, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
Technically that's only monotheistic Judaism. Judaism began as a henotheistic religion, not monotheistic. I'm using those dates because the monotheistic dates are already being used for Second Temple Era.
67.85.35.183 (
talk) 03:47, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
You don't have evidence /info/en/?search=Origins_of_Judaism — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.79.194.90 ( talk) 03:59, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
The above discussion is honestly hard to follow because of the lack of indentations and unsigned comments. Please respect the WP:TPG, I've already told one of you that. Start the discussion now onwards from here. Warned both of you about edit warring too yet it continues. Ugog Nizdast ( talk) 14:23, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
The name "Israel" first appears in the stele of the Egyptian pharaoh Merneptah c. 1209 BCE. The Mesha stele (c. 830), left by a king of Moab, celebrates his success in throwing off the oppression of the "House of Omri" (i.e., Israel). It bears what is generally thought to be the earliest extra-biblical Semitic reference to the name Yahweh (YHWH), whose temple goods were plundered by Mesha and brought before his own god Kemosh. There is a general consensus among scholars that the first formative event in the emergence of the distinctive religion described in the Bible was triggered by the destruction of Israel by Assyria in c. 722 BCE. Refugees from the northern kingdom fled to Judah, bringing with them laws and a prophetic tradition of Yahweh. The founding myth of the Israelite nation is the Exodus of the Israelites from Egypt under the guidance of Moses, followed by the conquest of the Promised Land (Canaan). However, there is little or no archaeological or historical evidence to support these accounts, and although they may in part originate as early as the 10th century BCE, according to the Wellhausen hypothesis they reached something like their present form only in the 5th to 4th centuries BCE. During the 8th century BCE, worship of Yahweh in Israel stood in competition with many other cults, described by the Yahwist faction collectively as Baals. At its core, the Tanakh is an account of the Israelites' relationship with God from their earliest history until the building of the Second Temple (c. 535 BCE).
All the archaeological evidence, without falling into cognitive biases and fallacies. It indicates that the Bible, the monotheistic worship of Yahweh and Judaism dates from the 8th century B.C. Before the 8th century B.C. is of religion Canaanite, Egyptian, Mesopotamian or other entities Semitics.
/info/en/?search=History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah /info/en/?search=Yahweh /info/en/?search=Origins_of_Judaism /info/en/?search=Judaism#History /info/en/?search=Dating_the_Bible /info/en/?search=History_of_Israel /info/en/?search=Jahwist /info/en/?search=Hezekiah — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.79.200.96 ( talk) 18:44, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
The kingdom of judah is from the 8th century a.c. in this era the bible was created, the monotheism, the culto to Yahweh, the yahwism and hezekiah that promoted the cult of Yahweh and the judaism.
/info/en/?search=Kingdom_of_Judah — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.79.224.133 ( talk) 23:35, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Israel has existed since 1200 BC, this does not mean that Judaism too. That is a fallacy of division and affirming the consequent, is ilogical. The judaism follow to Yahweh, so every the cult of Yahweh is Jewish. But the Canaanites had to Yahweh as a god and were not Jews. In the 13 century BC, Israel was monotheist until the 8 century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.79.213.243 ( talk) 02:49, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Canaan existed from 2500 to 1000 B.C., and Israel, the Hebrew language and the Yahwism emerged after the collapse of canaan, It is impossible for there existed before 1000 B.C., although Yahweh comes from El does not mean that already existed worship Yahweh. Already it existed worship Allah (Islam), jehova (Christianity) or Baha (Baha'i Faith)? Even the supreme god of the pagan Arab religion was called allah, an association of names is not relevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.104.114.102 ( talk) 15:58, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
The opening sentence of the article reads "This article lists historical figures credited with founding religions…" (my emphasis). The subsection "Ancient (before AD 500)" has a note reading "only add HISTORICAL INDIVIDUALS" (not my emphasis). "Yahwists" is not a historical figure or a historical individual, it is the equivalent of listing " Ancient Celts" as the founder of Wicca or " Indo-Aryans" as the founder of Hinduism – pointless and redundant. User:BedrockPerson, your claim that your edits are "staff approved" is laughable, and the above discussion clearly shows no other editors are in favour of your addition. 124.148.103.22 ( talk) 06:36, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
This is getting to the point where it's insultingly annoying. Anyone for support? BedrockPerson ( talk) 15:10, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
The edit warring/content dispute is getting out of hand. I have fully protected this page for 48 hours. Settle this here on the talk page. If there is an issue with one or more editors inability to abide by consensus take it to ANI. Remember there are multiple avenues open for resolving content disputes. - Ad Orientem ( talk) 23:41, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
This article clearly states that it includes historical figures, while "For legendary figures for which historicity cannot be established, see Culture hero." I've just seen the edit war over Abraham, whose historicity is certainly dubious, see Abraham#Historicity. But in this article Wikipedia states in its own voice that Abraham is a genuine historical figure. I've not checked the other listings but if there are any other dubious ones they should be removed. Doug Weller talk 09:35, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
That way if someone edits the page with the intention of adding a figure like Abraham, they can't say they didn't know it was considered a violation of policy, at the very least. BedrockPerson ( talk) 20:32, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
Given the recent occurrence of yet another wave of biased edits, I've drawn up a rudimentary draft explaining the execution of Wikipedia policy on the page. I openly encourage others to help contribute to this page, especially those with better knowledge and...writing skills. Especially @ Doug Weller:, since he has had more experience dealing with this type of thing than I have, by far. 16:01, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
I have removed unsourced content at the top of the article. This needs sources, preferably strong scholarly sources.
See Wikipedia:Verifiability#Responsibility_for_providing_citations: "All content must be verifiable. The burden of demonstrating verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution."
It doesn't matter how well-established a concept is - if it's in the article, it needs a source. We don't ask readers to "just trust us." If a given statement is well-established, then it should be easy to find the requisite citations.
(By the way, at least some of the unsourced text may have may be presented in a too-definitive way. For example, the Axial Age (which was referenced in the unsourced text) is apparently a concept not universally embraced among scholars, as noted in our article on it. Frankly, my inclination would be to have a short and simple lead section. But if we're to have a long one, the least we must do it have it be well-sourced.)
-- Neutrality talk 00:39, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
I looked at some history from last year and some took up whether founders as groups should be included? I thought about this when i clicked the Sant Mat-link and it was a bit confusing since it wasn't a specific person. Just wanted to see if someone else think this should be discussed. ? -- LialSE ( talk) 09:12, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of founders of religious traditions's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "birth":
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |deadurl=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 12:54, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
VEDAS : The Vedas are among the oldest sacred texts. The Samhitas date to roughly 1500–1000 BCE, and the "circum-Vedic" texts, as well as the redaction of the Samhitas, date to c. 1000-500 BCE, resulting in a Vedic period, spanning the mid 2nd to mid 1st millennium BCE, or the Late Bronze Age and the Iron Age. [1]
Michael Witzel gives a time span of c. 1500 BCE to c. 500-400 BCE. Witzel makes special reference to the Near Eastern Mitanni material of the 14th c. BCE the only epigraphic record of Indo-Aryan contemporary to the Rigvedic period. He gives 150 BCE ( Patañjali) as a terminus ante quem for all Vedic Sanskrit literature, and 1200 BCE (the early Iron Age) as terminus post quem for the Atharvaveda. [2]
Transmission of texts in the Vedic period was by oral tradition alone, preserved with precision with the help of elaborate mnemonic techniques. A literary tradition set in only in post-Vedic times, after the rise of Buddhism in the Maurya period, perhaps earliest in the Kanva recension of the Yajurveda about the 1st century BCE; however oral tradition predominated until c. 1000 CE. [3]
Rig Veda manuscripts have been selected for inscription in UNESCO's "Memory of the World" Register 2007. [4]
PURANAS : Vyasa, the narrator of the Mahabharata, is traditionally considered the compiler of the Puranas. [5] However, the earliest written versions date from the time of the Gupta Empire (third-fifth century CE) and much material may be dated, through historical references and other means, to this period and the succeeding centuries.
The date of the production of the written texts does not define the date of origin of the Puranas. [6] On one hand, they existed in some oral form before being written [6] while at the same time, they have been incrementally modified well into the 16th century. [6] [7]— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellasitis ( talk • contribs) 04:01, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
References
That needs to be changed in the list, Nebuchadnezzar II merely continued the same traditions from before, which were established by Hammurabi, creator of the law code an Amorite who founded the Babylonian empire. The most Nebuchadnezzar II did was re-establish, but I don't think that's what this list is all about. Someone should change it or I will at a later time. Themetacognologist ( talk) 19:43, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
There is no evidence that zoroastenism Influenced second Temple Judaism..its just theory because Both having jews and Persian relation in exile, Give145 ( talk) 17:49, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
Shaykism is listed as Islamic by its article. I am not sure if would qualify as a "major denomination" for this list. Elizium23 ( talk) 11:47, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Someone (I can't remember who) was busy adding names of various founders of religions to the Muhammad page, and I decided that it made more sense to just link to one page. I'm not sure that this is a good idea (what's major?) but hey, if it unclutters one page ...
Should I include Scientology or shouldn't I? If we start to get into what might be called recently founded religions (sects, cults), we could end up with a list of hundreds of names, many of whom are the fearless leader of only a handful of people. Zora 14:20, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I have no problem accepting 150,000 as the cut off (having looked at the adherents.com website) - but I would like to keep the definition of 'major' specific. Saying the other two religions probably had quite huge followings isn't enough. I shan't remove them for now, but will await your comments.OK, this is the list on adherents.com - which says it takes its figures from what the respective religions claim.
jguk 22:54, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've got an idea -- there is already a List of religions on which many electrons have been spilled. Link that to the list of founders page, with a note to the effect that many religions have no non-mythical founders. Zora 00:17, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Someone from an anonymous IP added Joseph Smith (Mormonism). I removed this as a difficult and unclassifiable case. First of all, Mormon is a nickname -- the official name is Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints. If Mormons want to refer to their church in shorthand, they'll say LDS, usually. Second, Mormons would insist that they are Christians and that their religion was founded by Jesus. They give a special status to Joseph Smith, but I'm not sure that they would call him the founder of a major religion. They would probably say that he RESTORED a corrupted Christianity -- in which case he'd have the same status as Luther or Calvin. We aren't putting founders of sects in the list, so I think it would be better to avoid Joseph Smith. Zora 02:04, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Dear anon, I deleted your addition of Adi Shankara. I agree that he's an extremely important person, but he really can't be called the founder of Hinduism if he started just one school of thought inside an existing tradition. Zora 04:30, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I reverted to the older version, with all the caveats. Babawaba, these caveats are necessary if the list is to be NPOV. Frex, saying that Muhammad founded Islam is wrong, in the eyes of Muslims. Insisting that the caveat be removed is insensitive. Ditto for a lot of the other caveats. I make this point as a Buddhist; I don't belong to any of the religions that would insist on the caveats. It's not as if the list were extremely long; we have the space to add a few words. Zora 02:22, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I had changed the article by putting that according to Muslims Islam was started by Adam and not Muhammad. What I want to understand is that, what is that you consider as correct. A generally held misconception that Islam was started by Muhammad, or the truth where Islam actually came to an end with Muhammad, because he was the last and final messenger of more than 300,000 sent on earth. Alimustafakhan
Doesn't Islam center around Muhammad's teachings? If so then he is considered the founder. Anker99 01:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I think an important correction needs to be made. Christianity was not started by Jesus. Jesus himself was a Jew for his entire life. Chrisitianity was started by Paul.
I agree... Jesus did not start Christianity. This should be corrected. Shane 09:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
We keep having this argument over and over again. Anon, YOU may believe that Jesus lived and died a Jew, but Christians don't believe that. I'm not a Christian, BTW, I'm a Buddhist, and I would admit that it's possible that the historical Jesus was something other than the personage claimed by Christians. But this is not the place to argue that. If people click on Jesus or Christianity they're going to find the controversy. We don't need to present it here. This list is just a convenience for high-school kids doing reports for their world religions class :) It helps people find important religious figures. It is not the world court of who actually founded a certain religion. Zora 04:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
If I'm not mistaken but doesn't Christianity "center" around his teachings? Anker99 01:45, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Another technical correction. Though Judaism is based on the teachings on Abraham, Judaism actually starts with Abraham's grandson Jacob AKA Israel. If we are to say that Judaism starts with Abraham, then we would be saying that both of Abraham's sons are jews and had the chosen blood. This would include Ishmael and his decendents (the Arabs). Therefore, Judaism and the Hebrew people started with Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham.
First we have a Muslim insisting that Muhammad did not "found" Islam, now we have someone insisting that Jesus didn't "found" Christianity and Abraham didn't "found" Judaism. This list is falling to pieces because the concept of "founding" seems to be inherently difficult in the context of religion.
I suggest that we change the page title and the header text. How about Biographical articles concerning significant figures in major religions or some such thing, and allow, um, five people per tradition?
Or perhaps we should just delete the #@$%#$@% page. If you limit the people to five, you have endless flamewars about who's the most important five. If you don't have any limit, you end up with an endlessly long page with entries like "Rev. X, who founded the Assemblies of God church in Y". Zora 02:07, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) (who is feeling kinda discouraged right now)
The title of the page is "List of founders of major religions" not "major churches" or "congregations" or something else to that effect.
As 62.* points out, Jesus did indeed found Christianity while St. Paul merely founded the first organized church around it. There are a number of separate congregations that follow the teachings of Christ and as such can be said to be Christians. Most of them, but not all, trace their roots back to the church founded by St. Paul (the Catholic church and all the other churches that broke off from that at some point in history).
So yes - this entry should read Jesus Christ.
Besides, the order of the entries seems to be alphabetized by the name of the founder for the first half of the list or so and then by the name of the religion for the second. This should probably be fixed. Thomas Horsten 23:23, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I firmly believe that christianity is simply Mithraism-light as interpreted by Jesus. The "miracles" of Jesus clearly didn't happen so they should be seen as inventions of the gospel writers. The birth stories of Luke and Matthew don't even agree with each other and should be assumed to be apocryphal. Then there was Saul of Tarsus, who was more important to Christianity than Jesus. Without Saul the Christian sect would have died out as another failed Jewish messianic cult. No, without Saul the gentiles would not have been hooked. And to do that he had to remove the cumbersome Jewish cleanliness protocols. So I don't think there could be any one founder of Christianity. I doubt any religion has any one founder. I pick on Christianity because I know it best, being an apostate. -- metta, The Sunborn 16:01, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Jesus didn't found Christianity. It appears that the majority here are in agreement on that fact. Should we change the article to: a) Paul b) Christianity is an interpretation of Mithraism
Shane 08:17, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
We should aspire to be more encyclopedic, and only include facts that are supported by evidence. All the evidence points to the fact that christianity started many years after the death of jesus. SO he can't be the founder of a religion that didn't exist in his lifetime. Maybe we should have a separate list of religions inspired by people. 203.143.238.107 08:14, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Mormonism is listed separately and as such is considered a separate religion from Christianity. I don't know if this should be the case. They, Mormons, have a doctrine that is much off the wall from 'mainstream' Christianity but I doubt that they are any less Christian. As such whould probably be removed from a separate entry. -- The Sunborn
Jguk arrived and changed everything to his prefered BC. I changed back. He reverted.
I've changed everything to BC/BCE. It's not showing up correctly, but at least it's an even-handed solution. Someone can fix the Wikipedia dating system so that BC = BCE = BC/BCE. Zora 18:45, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
There seems to be a lot of discussion as to who should be included in this list mostly because of the title being "List of Founders of Major World Religions". I would suggest the title be changed to "List of Important Figures of Major World Religions" or something similar. For example, Christianity was founded on the teachings of Jesus but he is also an important prophet in Islam, which this list doesn't reflect (although he is on the list of prophets of Islam). I think a name change would end a lot of the debate. -- Negative3 18:52, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I think this would expand the list infinitely and render it largely useless (that is, if it is inherently useful!) With such an exhaustive list, it would be more rational to create separate pages for each religion. At least in the cases of Hinduism, Judaism and Christianity (the only ones I have much knowledge of), these lists would be very long. -- Slow Graffiti 19:30, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the recently added reference to Fox ( founder of the Quakers ), as he founded a denomination within Christianity, and not a new religion. This is consistent with the main article on Quakers treating Fox and his heirs as part of the broad Christian tradition. I'm very sympathetic to the idea that we should provide a way of understanding the different denominations within each broad religious tradition, but this article doesn't seem to be the place to do it ( pages on the individual religions generally describe the main denominations ). In deleting Fox ( and, earlier, restoring Joseph Smith per earlier discussion on this page ) I've tried to have in mind what a user with no prior knowledge of religion would find useful when viewing this page. That Fox and Smith were both important people is not in doubt, but the fruits of their actions were in some sense different, and my aim is to reflect this. I'm adding a sentence at the bottom of the article to try to clarify this. WMMartin 17:18, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
WMMartin appears to have little appreciation of how Quakers see themselves, including the fact that within Quakerism itself, the Quaker faith is understood as a new and vital tradition that is more a break with and something distinct from traditional Christianity than Latter-day Saints view themselves as. Be that as it may, I'll be perfectly content to not try to add Fox to this page, even though from a theological and sociological perspective, his inclusion is more proper than that of Joseph Smith. People unaware of this would do well to read the Wikipedia articles about Quakers. Interested readers are also referred to, well, just about any boko written by Quakers in the last 40 years. It does a disservice to George Fox and to Quakers generally to classify him as simply in the same category as Martin Luther or John Wesley, or even Joseph Smith, none of whom claimed to be anything but part of an already-founded religion. Because WMMartin need not fear that I'll try to add Fox, there is no reason to clutter up this page with a sentence that clearly belongs on the discussion page, and not on the article page: "Also note that in most religions there are several different traditions or denominations, which may have evolved or been founded at different times, by different people and in different places. These are described in the main articles for each religion." This sentence may well belong with a page providing a definition of what a "denomination" is, but it only clutters up a once-clean, and appealing-looking page whose purpose is to list religion founders.
First of all, I'd like to thank WMMartin for trying to find the right solution to this question, and for posting a request for help on the Quaker talk page asking for help finding clarity on this discussion. You've touched on a rather sizable debate within Quakerism itself so others may disagree, but I'll provide my 2 cents. I don't believe George Fox had any intention of forming a religion, other than a refounding of the early Christian church. Any movement toward creating a non-Christian religion or movement happened later, and despite the intentions of Fox. Personally I don't feel it makes sense for Fox to be listed on this page, nor do I believe he would want to be seen as in equivalent to the other religious leaders listed here (particularly those from the Judeo-Christian tradition. -- Ahc 00:47, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Both of these have more members than Scientology according to reliable sources. Ahmadiyya is a kind of Islam, but separate enough to count if Mormonism is going to count. Also the Jehovah Witnesses, according to most estimates, are also larger than Scientology. Should I add their founders too?-- T. Anthony 04:01, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Going by the above information they are apparently fairly large.-- T. Anthony 05:31, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
There are estimated to be 6 million of them. However I'm not sure if them or the Mormons should be listed. Aren't they both Christian denominations? Unusual ones perhaps, but still.-- T. Anthony 14:04, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
I think I would remove both Mormonism and 'JW' because they are denominations, sects - whatever term you would like to use - within Christianity. It doesn't mean that other Christians recognize them as fellow Christians. The important factor is self belief - they believe themselves to be Christians, and would claim Abraham, Moses, and Jesus as the founders of their religion. I'm sure there are similar separations amongst Hindus and perhaps other religions that differ just as much - Vaishnavism and Shaktism differ even on who they acknowledge as Supreme Brahman (as I understand it). Joseph Smith and Charles Russell did not 'found' their religions - they started their own reformations. These reformations may have separated them from contemporary Christians, but not from their common founders. As someone stated above, Luther and Calvin would be on the same plane. Thoughts? -- Slow Graffiti 21:06, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I missed the 'Are Mormons Christians?' exchange above prior to writing these comments. It puts their inclusion more into perspective, but I'd still like more feedback about the issue. -- Slow Graffiti 21:13, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I'd be for that removal. I'm mostly willing to be broad in my interpretation of what religions are Christian. I'd accept Mormons, JWs, Christian Science, and even early Unitarians as Christians. ( UUA, some Hicksites, and a few others I would not class as Christians as they seem to not class themselves that way)-- T. Anthony 04:25, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
In China, Confucianism was a part of politic in the history and it is some kind of culture remains today. Today you almost can't find some Chinese "believe" Confucianism, because Confucianism is not a religion. Besides, in fact there was hardly relation between Confucian or Confucianism according history record. It's just like most people believe Frankstein was the monster today.
In China, Confucianism was a part of politic in the history and it is some kind of culture remains today. Today you almost can't find some Chinese "believe" Confucianism, because Confucianism is not a religion. Besides, in fact there was hardly relation between Confucius and Confucianism according history record. It's just like most people believe Frankstein was the monster today. -- Gleader 19:25, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
It seems somewhat POV to use Christian dating (before Christ) for all the earlier figures. Wouldn't BCE be better? as at least showing that we're trying? Zora 04:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I find the list to look a bit cluttered. I wonder if it should be broken up in some way, or converted to a table? Шизомби 09:33, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
"The following figures are believed to have founded major religions or to have been the first codifiers or best known proponents of older traditions. In some cases, little or nothing is known of the figures; the dates are conjectures and some historians doubt that the founder, as described, ever existed."
Krishna cannot be considered a founder of Hinduism, although is indeed a major part of the religion. Calling Krishna a prophet is incorrect, seeing as in Hinduism he is viewed as a God, usually as an avatar of Vishnu (or Vishnu as an avatar of Krishna, it varies)
I am removing it for the moment, please comment. Sfacets 00:45, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I have removed Scientology from the list. It cannot be considered major, 500,000 adherants (adherants.com) is far too few to make this a major religion. Sfacets 01:53, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Rather than get into a revert war, please find a reliable source to back your claims. Sfacets 02:55, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think "adherents" is a good way to do this article. Perahps, define a major religion by influence. Scientology has very little influence in the world. I wouldn't oppose the inclusion of Scientology however. 12.220.94.199 23:31, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Scientology can't be considered a church or religion for they have no God(s) that they worship because if I'm not mistaken but dont religions and churchs worship God(s). Anker99 20:14, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
According to the list above in the discussion article there are about "600 thousand" members. So can Scientology be considered more of a "cult" then a full on religion? Anker99 01:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there any reason Scientology was re-added? I am removing it again until a rationale can be brought forward. Sfacets 11:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
How can Moses be the founder, if Judaism already existed when he was around? At least 400 years before in fact...
We have weasel words at the top about "founder or first codifier". Moses could be considered the first codifier. Zora 09:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Even if you say Moses and the giving of the Torah are the founding of Judaism, the dating is all wrong. According to traditional Jewish dating the revelation on Mt. Sinai took place in the Hebrew year 2448 which correlates to 1313 BCE, making Judaism's "founding" in the 14th century. HOWEVER, there is a difference of 163 years between traditional Jewish dating and secular dating. Traditional Jewish dating has the destruction of the First Temple in 423 BCE while in secular dating it correlates to 586 BCE. Thus, using secular dating, the revelation at Sinai should be dating to 1467 BCE, the 15th century. I won't edit the article, but I suggest for the purpose of accuracy the article be changed to the 14th century (based on Jewish dating) or on 15th century based on secular dating. - Nate —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.17.146.166 ( talk) 17:17, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to remove Mary Baker Eddy and Wallace Fard. They did not create/found a new religion, they were in the category of sects or movements within religions. All the other people on the list actually founded a new religion, and claimed some sort of superhuman status, however you want to call it. Cuñado - Talk 20:38, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Because it is less ambigious and we will be arguing until the cows come home as to what constitutes a "Major" religion.-- CltFn 03:00, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I have added Christian Science and it's founder to the list since it is quite clear that this is a religion separate from Christianity. It is only fair since the Unification Church and Mormonism's founders are also on the list. The Fading Light 03:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
IshmaelBlues is continuing to remove the entry for Confucious, without justifying this, and, it seems to me, without reading the list of caveats at the bottom, one of which is that some people say that Confucianism is NOT a religion. It's arguable -- after all, Confucianism believes in a "Heaven" that requires the proper performance of religious rituals for the land to prosper. However, that is argued in the article to which we link. I think that in a borderline case such as this, it's better to include the tradition (which is, after all, followed by millions) and make it clear that it's disputed. Zora 08:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Wasn't Krishna the founder of the Hindu Religion? Anker99 20:10, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Adam was not the founder of a religion , he was a character in the mythology of Judaism and Christianity . And if you mention Adam , then you might as well mention Eve. -- CltFn 13:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Adam is a fictional character, there is no evidence that he existed and most major religions consider him mythological, so I removed him. 203.143.238.107 08:02, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
If this edit is going to stay, then the page title should be List of founders of religions. We went over this discussion months ago. Most of those listed are not world religions, since they are isolated to a small geographical area or ethnic group. Also, Mary Baker Eddy founded a sect of Christianity, not a religion. She should be removed regardless. Cuñado - Talk 15:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Eve would have to be one of the co-founders of the Abrahamic religions would she not.-- CltFn 23:39, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes, she is not considered to be a founder or one of the founders by any major religion. Sfacets 23:52, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
It does, but then it isn't up to us to say that she is part f the foundation or not, it is up to the religion(s) in question. Sfacets 23:57, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Was Cao Dai removed because it's a local religion limited to Vietnam and Vietnamese immigrants? Because it numbers about 2 million. It might be as international as Christian Science, although limited more in ethnic terms.-- T. Anthony 09:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Many people consider him notable and he undoubtedly influenced culture. WerewolfSatanist 20:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I've added Chaitanya Mahaprabhu as the founder of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Other prominent Hindu denominations should be added in, I believe — for Hinduism is a collective term for a great variety of denominations that are, for all their doctrinal differences, for all practical purposes distinct and separate religions. — Raga 11:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
In an introductory lecture on the origin of the Vedas to Europeans in 1865, the German Indologist Max Muller said, "In no country, I believe, has the theory of revelation been so minutely elaborated as in India. The name for revelation in Sanskrit is Sruti, which means hearing; and this title distinguished the Vedic hymns and, at a later time, the Brahmanas also, from all other works, which however sacred and authoritative to the Hindu mind, are admitted to have been composed by human authors. The Laws of Manu, for instance, are not revelation; they are not Sruti, but only Smriti, which means recollection of tradition. If these laws or any other work of authority can be proved on any point to be at variance with a single passage of the Veda, their authority is at once overruled. According to the orthodox views of Indian theologians, not a single line of the Veda was the work of human authors. The whole Veda is in some way or the other the work of the Deity; and even those who saw it were not supposed to be ordinary mortals, but beings raised above the level of common humanity, and less liable therefore to error in the reception of revealed truth. The views entertained by the orthodox theologians of India are far more minute and elaborate than those of the most extreme advocates of verbal inspiration in Europe. The human element, called paurusheyatva in Sanskrit, is driven out of every corner or hiding place, and as the Veda is held to have existed in the mind of the Deity before the beginning of time..." For quotation see: "Chips from a German Workshop" by Max Muller, Oxford University Press, 1867 - Chapter 1: "Lecture on the Vedas or the Sacred Books of the Brahmans, Delivered at Leeds, 1865", pages 17-18.
FYI, Vaishnavism was founded around the persona of Krishna, 3100BC according to traditional astronomical dating. However, Vaishnavism as a major religious movement was founded in India around 600BC, according to the Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan's History of India (in 11 volumes), 11th edition 1996 Hulagu 00:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)Hulagu
The whole disclaimer at the bottom strikes me as pretty unencyclopedic. If people care about Wikipedia's policies, they should check the policy pages.
I'm sure that can all be rephrased in a slightly less... sycophantic manner, no? For example, just mention that some religions don't consider their founder a "founder", and leave it at that. -- π! 10:45, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
There can be only 1 founder - Lord Rishabha or Mahavira, not both.-- Redtigerxyz 17:16, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
since there is only a dozen (super-)traditions widely recognized as " world religions", and most list entries went beyond these already, I suggest it is best to expand the scope to "notable religious philosophies, traditions and denominations". This also avoids the tired "Muhammad is not the founder of Islam" debate. new religious movements are a dime a dozen, however, and we should either demand minimal notability (say, more than 20,000 adherents), or delegate these to a separate article. dab (𒁳) 10:01, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Because, the first section placed him in the Axial Age of founders, and I do not see a religious tradition based solely around Socrates. I replaced his name with Solomon, if only because there is mention of him in the article and the time period (~1000-900 BCE) is early enough to fit with Buddha and the others there. Notostraca 03:28, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Nanak is the first of the ten Sikh gurus, but that does not mean that he founded it. As the word is usually understood, founding a religion means separating it from the other ones, and Nanak definitely never separated his followers from Muslims or Hindus. In fact, many of Nanak's practices were things that were eventually forbidden once Sikhism was founded - for example, fasting and going on pilgrimages. I believe that it was the last Guru who separated Sikhism from Islam and Hinduism. Epa101 ( talk) 22:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Since this list apparently includes the founder of every major Protestant denomination, I've added Ellen G. White (Seventh-day Adventism) and Charles Parham (Pentecostalism). Should policy change and all the other major Christian denomination leaders removed, such as John Calvin, Joseph Smith, and Henry VIII, then feel free to take these two additions out as well. ( NorthernFalcon ( talk) 22:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC))
Marwa Itani
I want you to remove this pictures because God will put us in fier please follow islam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.6.55.194 ( talk) 14:32, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I went ahead and added Moses as the founder of Judaism. Abraham and the Israelites before the Exodus may have worshipped YHWH, but they didn't have the Torah which [I'd say] is the main part of Judaism. I don't know whether to leave Solomon there, because if you consider Moses the founder, Solomon didn't play a big part in changing the religion, but since Ezra is in there I figured I'd leave both of them. Maybe both of them should be removed. 12.217.230.194 ( talk) 13:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The founders have been listed in historical, date of birth order. Please help keep it that way when adding new entries, both for consistency and to make it easier for readers. • Astynax talk 18:50, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Latter Day Saints aren't included in this list, or am I mistaken. Lilaac ( talk) 22:31, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Why is Peter in the list? I understand why Paul is, but Peter (If anything should Peter and Paul not share the same box? Perhaps it could say. Peter and Paul, Paul codified Jesus Teachings along with Peter, the early Church leader.) I say this because Peter's teachings are not any different from Paul's or indeed known in any great detail. Peter did not found Catholicism it was the religion of Paul also- there is no such thing as Petrine Christianity... Gavin ( talk) 21:44, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
What I have done is merge Peter and Paul as they both followed Pauline Christianity (inclusion of the gentiles, end of circumcision etc) so if anything they are co-founders of the Pauline school of thought which has largely become modern Christianity. I have also added James the Just who is the one who opposed Peter and Paul on certain issues and led the Jewish Christians movement. Gavin ( talk) 01:36, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
This is getting ridiculous, and this page is becoming a mess (and by the looks of this discussion page, has been for some time). The question of course is who do we list as the founder? The first main proponent from a historical perspective? The founder according to the religion itself? The prophet or the apprentice/prophet who wrote everything down and/or started the movement?
I suggest we list both, either in the Abraham/Muhammad format for Islam or Muhammad (Abraham) is some clear and consistent manner. I don't care which is first (religion's own idea of founder vs. outside/historical view), but it should be done consistently. Some example edits: Christianity = Jesus/Paul of Tarsus or Paul of Tarsus (Jesus) Mormanism = Jesus/Joseph Smith Sikhism = (???)/Guru Nanak (forgive my ignorance here on the Sikh view of founder)
Personally, I'd like to suggest the "First Proponant (Figurehead)" approach, akin to Plato (Socrates) and the relationship there, since most reading this page will belong to one religion only, and hence prefer the areligious historical view 90% of the time, and to avoid half the names being Jesus or Abraham. I'll give this a week so others can comment before I change the article. (August 7, 2008). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.85.251.170 ( talk) 19:59, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
we'll just list any individual identified as the founder of some religious tradition, what's the problem? Note that a "religious tradition" may well be a denomination or sect, such as Luther for Lutheranism. dab (𒁳) 18:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
What about Abraham, the Father of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, & Baha'i?-- 174.95.63.5 ( talk) 04:01, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Does this organization really belong on this page? The article for the organization represents it as a simple charitable foundation, rather than as a spiritual movement (IDing it as a nongovernmental organization, no listing of theological tenets, etc.). Seems like either this page or that one should change.-- 216.164.44.4 ( talk) 20:54, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Eastern Orthodoxy was not founded by any one person. It is a religious tradition inseparable from early Christianity. It is as absurd as proposing a "founder" for Roman Catholicism. Both Christian traditions have their ultimate foundations in the teachings of Jesus.
Ilion301 ( talk) 01:27, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
it isn't "absurd", it is exactly the sort of thing listed in this article, as explained in the lead. Or do you suppose that Lutheranism, Anglicanism, or any of the other Christian traditions listed do somehow not have "their ultimate foundations in the teachings of Jesus"? -- dab (𒁳) 09:25, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
-- None of you has a clue what Jesus of Nazareth actually said or did. But there's no question that Eastern Orthodox is just as old as Roman Catholicism. They were the same thing until the Great Schism of 1064. Look it up. 76.113.64.124 ( talk) 00:35, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Easily one of the most unique strains of Christianity ... but I didn't see it listed here. 76.113.64.124 ( talk) 00:36, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Rather than discussing various syntheses as to who founded what, this article would be better served by providing citations for the founders claimed for each of the religious traditions listed. The article must reflect sources. Existing articles and lists already have sources for most everything here, although this list isn't entirely consistent with those other articles. To get things rolling, I've put in a few citations for founders. • Astynax talk 08:09, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
of course all items listed need to be substantiated by the content of the article linked. As long as this is ensured, inserting references is just a matter of a copy-paste job from the linked article. Please feel free to (a) insert references for valid entres and (b) remove entries that are unsubstantiated. -- dab (𒁳) 11:47, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
if there is zoroaster we must include moses and zoroaster's historicity is much less than solomans Ishmaelblues ( talk) 14:17, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
if you read the Zoroaster and the Moses article, you will realize that this isn't the case.
The Old Avestan Gathas are composed by Zoroaster, making him exactly as historical as Homer: historical as the identity of the composer of an extant text. There are no texts by "Moses". The Pentateuch was compiled from oral tradition many centuries after the putative date of a potentially historical Moses. -- dab (𒁳) 14:47, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
both are mixed with legend if we include zoroaster we must include moses. Ishmaelblues ( talk) 18:25, 25 October 2009 (UTC) there are also portions of the bible supposedly composed by moses so again they are both semi legendary Ishmaelblues ( talk) 18:26, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
no, you don't understand. Please (please) read the Mosaic authorship and the Zoroaster articles. It is immaterial whether Zoroaster was "mixed with legend". Jesus, Buddha and hell even Luther and John Smith, were "mixed with legend". That is not the question. The question is, was there a tangible historical individual that later could be "mixed with legend" in the first place. -- dab (𒁳) 11:50, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
Why is it in Abraham's category, Baha'ism keeps being deleted? Baha'ism is an Abrahamic religion also. Baha'is trace their lineage to Abraham, via his children by Keturah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Splashen ( talk • contribs) 03:01, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
Judaism is the only religion that can actually be attributed to Abraham, though even that is a theological stretch. Nowhere in the Pentateuch is any claim made with regards to Abraham starting a new religion, rather it was Moses who set forth the law, which is the difference between Judaism and Islam. Christianity was founded By Jesus (Messiah) ben Joseph properly so. A religion is Founded by a person, irregardless of the claim to history. Moses founded Judaism, Christ founded Christianity, Muhammad founded Islam and Bahá'u'lláh founded Baha'i.
Acreditation again goes to the following: In Judaism the founding of the law is the founding of the Religion, thus Moses is the founder, though Abraham is the father of Isaac the father of Jacob who was named Israel. Baha'i traces it's origin to Abraham through lineage but sites no true founder beyond Bahá'u'lláh as Bahá'u'lláh claims to be of the blood line of Abraham. This claim is not that Abraham started the movement but that Bahá'u'lláh has a claim to his inheritance as a possible Messiah (forgetting about the Messiah coming from the house of David ben Jesse). On these grounds I will be Moving Judaism to Moses, and Baha'i to Bahá'u'lláh. Daniellis89 ( talk) 19:22, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
I removed two "founders" from the article. Enheduana was not the founder of the cult of Inanna, the cult was well established by the time she was appointed as priestess. She could be included in an article "first known followers of religious traditions", but this article is about founders.
Also, Pharaoh Ahmose did not found anything, the ancient Egyptian religion changed continually, with different gods gaining prominence in different periods. Ahmose was from Thebes, that city's god was Amun, that's why this god gradually became more important than others, but it was a long process, and his worship did not begin with Ahmose. "Quasi-monotheistic worship of Amun" is definitely incorrect. Apart from the Atenist reform, which didn't succeed, ancient Egypt was never monotheistic. – Alensha talk 20:26, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
I am suggesting the removal of "Haile Selassie" as the founder of Rastafarianism. I am basing this suggestion on the following.
[] Rastafarians believe Haile Selassie to be God. They chose him as their representation of God, however, he has never aligned himself with the Rastafarian religion. I believe that until his death, Haile Selassie claimed to be a Christian. Not to be daunted, Rastafarians continued in their claim that Haile Selassie is their God. An enlightening piece can be viewed here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdAXGmYRSlY.
[] It is said that the first person to suggest that Haile Selassie was God was Mortimer Planner (spelling errors possible). He has been credited as being the originator of Rastafarianism by many. However, discussing the founder of Rastafarianism may itself spark a "religious deabate".
There are quite a few books on the subject of Rastafarianism that may shed some light on this interesting religion. It is quite possible that Rastafarianism may be a class unto itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.252.220.90 ( talk) 09:54, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
This article is a bit of a mess. That is honestly understandable, given the rather required vagueness of the defining parameter. How exactly do we define "religious tradition" for the purposes of this article? For instance, would Handsome Lake qualify as the founder of his tradition, even if that tradition is, more or less, dead today? For that matter, what about Homer, who is thought to have perhaps founded the tradition of the Olympian gods? And, for that matter, what about Anthony of Egypt, the founder of the monastic movement in Christianity? Or Saint Dominic, founder of the tradition of the Dominican orders?
I honestly think that, while the list here is not a bad idea, it would be extremely helpful if we were able to come up with some set definition of terms of inclusion, otherwise it will basically always be subject to real and potential argument. John Carter ( talk) 18:51, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Various comments
I have questioned the inclusion in this listing of Sri Chinmoy because (i) the tradition does not figure as an article – the link to 'x' is to the article on the 24th letter of the alphabet –, (ii) having read the article on Sri Chinmoy, I consider that, whatever his impact as a person, he did not found or codify anything that could be considered a specific 'tradition' for the purposes of this article. Jpacobb ( talk) 00:13, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
Sri Chinmoy is founder of different modern parts of religion tradition. How meditation -> meditation centers ( worldwide), sport popular trough Challenging Impossibility a disciple from him Ashrita Furman or the World Harmony Run. -- Richard Reinhardt ( talk) 14:04, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
Or the founder of Self-Transcendence 3100 Mile Race. -- Richard Reinhardt ( talk) 17:10, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
This article tries to make a distinction between Vedic Religion and Classical Hinduism as being two separate religions. Further, in the tables there is no row for both Vedic Religion and Classical Hinduism.
Hinduism is a learning and evolving religion that has foundations in Vedas and draws from the Puranas. It it is incorrect to break Hinduism into two separate religions Vedic Religion and Classic Hinduism as this article purports.
Unlike western religion Hinduism is not bound by a single leader nor by a specific set of rules. It was and continues to be a tradition of beliefs that is evolving with the times. The term Hindu was applied in more recent times but the nomenclature has not disrupted the continuation of its tradition.
Hinduism is the foundation of Dharmic Religion and has significantly influenced Buddhist and Jain Religions and has also learnt from them and gone through several reformations in its long history.
It cannot be truly classified with religions that have a Single Spiritual Leader and specific written rules book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellasitis ( talk • contribs) 05:10, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Will add secondary sources as requested. Please allow some time. Also, see section below. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellasitis ( talk • contribs) 04:17, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
The wording of this paragraph seemed confusing and it contained a number of errors, including the following: Abraham was not a "founder" in the sense defined in this article (see Pico's edit); Lutheranism is a family of denominations, that is of specific ecclesial bodies (churches = denominations), each of which has its own shades of doctrine and practice and is self governing; Nestorius was not a "nestorian" and did not codify "Nestorianism" (see note to that effect in article). I have tried to put the essential main points without making statements which could well be questioned such as the inclusion in the list of "Pauline Christianity". Jpacobb ( talk) 01:05, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
User:Splashen has made recent edits which can be seen here These changes fall into three groups and I will comment them in turn, but first I want to ensure we are clear as to the meaning of "religious tradition". The lead section uses the word "denomination" which I take to be a synonym for tradition and to refer to a group of people with a specific religious identity and recognised at the time as such and identified by the founder's name by either the group itself or outsiders in general.
I fear that the post-1800 section of this article might become inflated by the inclusion of ephemeral movements. Here are a few initial thoughts as to how this might be avoided. The term "tradition" implies persistence in time, possibly second, third, and fourth generations. However, it would be an oversimplification to make duration the only criterion for inclusion: the Unification Church (Moonies) is a relatively recent but a widely diffused phenomenon and has been the subject of serious academic study. I suggest that the basic requirement for inclusion should be that of notability properly understood as having been the subject of academic attention. Some criteria which might normally be very relevant are questionable in this situation: (i) recognition by governments may simply be a right that any miniscule group can obtain on demand; (ii) mention in the media can be the consequence of the need for headlines. (ii) a string of web-sites as sources may simply be multiple sources related to the subject (?as in the case of Marshall Vian Summers?). Another entry which might be worth evaluating is Missionary Church of Kopimism. Jpacobb ( talk) 23:49, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Three different anonymous IPs have recently inserted this organisation at the end of the listing of "Founders of religious traditions", one of which has since been blocked. The entry has been removed by three different experienced editors (see here for details). The grounds for my action were and are "No evidence of notability". If this is reinserted I suggest as suitable protection for the page (¿no access for IPs, registered editors only?) Jpacobb ( talk) 18:26, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
Charles Taze Russell was NOT the founder of Jehova's Witnesses. He founded the Zion's Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society and it operated under this name until his death in 1916. Then the movement underwent some divisions, giving rise to a number of post-Russelian groups. One of the groups that emerged was led by JF Rutherford who only adopted the name "Jehova's Witnesses" in 1931. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.254.223.28 ( talk) 10:20, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
There is no historical or archaeological evidence of Abraham. This article is for characters that if they existed, should remove its name.
/info/en/?search=Abraham#Historicity_and_origins
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.79.194.90 ( talk) 19:58, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
The israeli people have his history since 1200 b.c. the bible since 745 b.c. and judaism since 586 b.c.
/info/en/?search=History_of_Israel /info/en/?search=Yahweh /info/en/?search=Dating_the_Bible — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.79.194.90 ( talk) 02:44, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
So, first off, those dates are not remotely correct, maybe. I don't know what the hell "A.C." is. "After Christ" maybe? Secondly, articles on THIS WIKI date earliest Hebrew occupation of Israel to the late 2nd millennium BCE, a mere half a millennium before your dates. The pagers you linked do not support your claims in the slightest. I don't know what to tell you. 67.85.35.183 ( talk) 02:56, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, i'm speak spanish, my english is basic. But israeli people exist since 1200 b.C. is archaeological — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.79.194.90 ( talk) 02:59, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
Ah, okay then. Then I guess you're right then. 67.85.35.183 ( talk) 03:09, 7 July 2016 (UTC)″
But judaism is since around to 586 b.C. /info/en/?search=Judaism#History — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.79.194.90 ( talk) 03:10, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
Technically that's only monotheistic Judaism. Judaism began as a henotheistic religion, not monotheistic. I'm using those dates because the monotheistic dates are already being used for Second Temple Era.
67.85.35.183 (
talk) 03:47, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
You don't have evidence /info/en/?search=Origins_of_Judaism — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.79.194.90 ( talk) 03:59, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
The above discussion is honestly hard to follow because of the lack of indentations and unsigned comments. Please respect the WP:TPG, I've already told one of you that. Start the discussion now onwards from here. Warned both of you about edit warring too yet it continues. Ugog Nizdast ( talk) 14:23, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
The name "Israel" first appears in the stele of the Egyptian pharaoh Merneptah c. 1209 BCE. The Mesha stele (c. 830), left by a king of Moab, celebrates his success in throwing off the oppression of the "House of Omri" (i.e., Israel). It bears what is generally thought to be the earliest extra-biblical Semitic reference to the name Yahweh (YHWH), whose temple goods were plundered by Mesha and brought before his own god Kemosh. There is a general consensus among scholars that the first formative event in the emergence of the distinctive religion described in the Bible was triggered by the destruction of Israel by Assyria in c. 722 BCE. Refugees from the northern kingdom fled to Judah, bringing with them laws and a prophetic tradition of Yahweh. The founding myth of the Israelite nation is the Exodus of the Israelites from Egypt under the guidance of Moses, followed by the conquest of the Promised Land (Canaan). However, there is little or no archaeological or historical evidence to support these accounts, and although they may in part originate as early as the 10th century BCE, according to the Wellhausen hypothesis they reached something like their present form only in the 5th to 4th centuries BCE. During the 8th century BCE, worship of Yahweh in Israel stood in competition with many other cults, described by the Yahwist faction collectively as Baals. At its core, the Tanakh is an account of the Israelites' relationship with God from their earliest history until the building of the Second Temple (c. 535 BCE).
All the archaeological evidence, without falling into cognitive biases and fallacies. It indicates that the Bible, the monotheistic worship of Yahweh and Judaism dates from the 8th century B.C. Before the 8th century B.C. is of religion Canaanite, Egyptian, Mesopotamian or other entities Semitics.
/info/en/?search=History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah /info/en/?search=Yahweh /info/en/?search=Origins_of_Judaism /info/en/?search=Judaism#History /info/en/?search=Dating_the_Bible /info/en/?search=History_of_Israel /info/en/?search=Jahwist /info/en/?search=Hezekiah — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.79.200.96 ( talk) 18:44, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
The kingdom of judah is from the 8th century a.c. in this era the bible was created, the monotheism, the culto to Yahweh, the yahwism and hezekiah that promoted the cult of Yahweh and the judaism.
/info/en/?search=Kingdom_of_Judah — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.79.224.133 ( talk) 23:35, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Israel has existed since 1200 BC, this does not mean that Judaism too. That is a fallacy of division and affirming the consequent, is ilogical. The judaism follow to Yahweh, so every the cult of Yahweh is Jewish. But the Canaanites had to Yahweh as a god and were not Jews. In the 13 century BC, Israel was monotheist until the 8 century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.79.213.243 ( talk) 02:49, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Canaan existed from 2500 to 1000 B.C., and Israel, the Hebrew language and the Yahwism emerged after the collapse of canaan, It is impossible for there existed before 1000 B.C., although Yahweh comes from El does not mean that already existed worship Yahweh. Already it existed worship Allah (Islam), jehova (Christianity) or Baha (Baha'i Faith)? Even the supreme god of the pagan Arab religion was called allah, an association of names is not relevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.104.114.102 ( talk) 15:58, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
The opening sentence of the article reads "This article lists historical figures credited with founding religions…" (my emphasis). The subsection "Ancient (before AD 500)" has a note reading "only add HISTORICAL INDIVIDUALS" (not my emphasis). "Yahwists" is not a historical figure or a historical individual, it is the equivalent of listing " Ancient Celts" as the founder of Wicca or " Indo-Aryans" as the founder of Hinduism – pointless and redundant. User:BedrockPerson, your claim that your edits are "staff approved" is laughable, and the above discussion clearly shows no other editors are in favour of your addition. 124.148.103.22 ( talk) 06:36, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
This is getting to the point where it's insultingly annoying. Anyone for support? BedrockPerson ( talk) 15:10, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
The edit warring/content dispute is getting out of hand. I have fully protected this page for 48 hours. Settle this here on the talk page. If there is an issue with one or more editors inability to abide by consensus take it to ANI. Remember there are multiple avenues open for resolving content disputes. - Ad Orientem ( talk) 23:41, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
This article clearly states that it includes historical figures, while "For legendary figures for which historicity cannot be established, see Culture hero." I've just seen the edit war over Abraham, whose historicity is certainly dubious, see Abraham#Historicity. But in this article Wikipedia states in its own voice that Abraham is a genuine historical figure. I've not checked the other listings but if there are any other dubious ones they should be removed. Doug Weller talk 09:35, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
That way if someone edits the page with the intention of adding a figure like Abraham, they can't say they didn't know it was considered a violation of policy, at the very least. BedrockPerson ( talk) 20:32, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
Given the recent occurrence of yet another wave of biased edits, I've drawn up a rudimentary draft explaining the execution of Wikipedia policy on the page. I openly encourage others to help contribute to this page, especially those with better knowledge and...writing skills. Especially @ Doug Weller:, since he has had more experience dealing with this type of thing than I have, by far. 16:01, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
I have removed unsourced content at the top of the article. This needs sources, preferably strong scholarly sources.
See Wikipedia:Verifiability#Responsibility_for_providing_citations: "All content must be verifiable. The burden of demonstrating verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution."
It doesn't matter how well-established a concept is - if it's in the article, it needs a source. We don't ask readers to "just trust us." If a given statement is well-established, then it should be easy to find the requisite citations.
(By the way, at least some of the unsourced text may have may be presented in a too-definitive way. For example, the Axial Age (which was referenced in the unsourced text) is apparently a concept not universally embraced among scholars, as noted in our article on it. Frankly, my inclination would be to have a short and simple lead section. But if we're to have a long one, the least we must do it have it be well-sourced.)
-- Neutrality talk 00:39, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
I looked at some history from last year and some took up whether founders as groups should be included? I thought about this when i clicked the Sant Mat-link and it was a bit confusing since it wasn't a specific person. Just wanted to see if someone else think this should be discussed. ? -- LialSE ( talk) 09:12, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of founders of religious traditions's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "birth":
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |deadurl=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 12:54, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
VEDAS : The Vedas are among the oldest sacred texts. The Samhitas date to roughly 1500–1000 BCE, and the "circum-Vedic" texts, as well as the redaction of the Samhitas, date to c. 1000-500 BCE, resulting in a Vedic period, spanning the mid 2nd to mid 1st millennium BCE, or the Late Bronze Age and the Iron Age. [1]
Michael Witzel gives a time span of c. 1500 BCE to c. 500-400 BCE. Witzel makes special reference to the Near Eastern Mitanni material of the 14th c. BCE the only epigraphic record of Indo-Aryan contemporary to the Rigvedic period. He gives 150 BCE ( Patañjali) as a terminus ante quem for all Vedic Sanskrit literature, and 1200 BCE (the early Iron Age) as terminus post quem for the Atharvaveda. [2]
Transmission of texts in the Vedic period was by oral tradition alone, preserved with precision with the help of elaborate mnemonic techniques. A literary tradition set in only in post-Vedic times, after the rise of Buddhism in the Maurya period, perhaps earliest in the Kanva recension of the Yajurveda about the 1st century BCE; however oral tradition predominated until c. 1000 CE. [3]
Rig Veda manuscripts have been selected for inscription in UNESCO's "Memory of the World" Register 2007. [4]
PURANAS : Vyasa, the narrator of the Mahabharata, is traditionally considered the compiler of the Puranas. [5] However, the earliest written versions date from the time of the Gupta Empire (third-fifth century CE) and much material may be dated, through historical references and other means, to this period and the succeeding centuries.
The date of the production of the written texts does not define the date of origin of the Puranas. [6] On one hand, they existed in some oral form before being written [6] while at the same time, they have been incrementally modified well into the 16th century. [6] [7]— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellasitis ( talk • contribs) 04:01, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
References
That needs to be changed in the list, Nebuchadnezzar II merely continued the same traditions from before, which were established by Hammurabi, creator of the law code an Amorite who founded the Babylonian empire. The most Nebuchadnezzar II did was re-establish, but I don't think that's what this list is all about. Someone should change it or I will at a later time. Themetacognologist ( talk) 19:43, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
There is no evidence that zoroastenism Influenced second Temple Judaism..its just theory because Both having jews and Persian relation in exile, Give145 ( talk) 17:49, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
Shaykism is listed as Islamic by its article. I am not sure if would qualify as a "major denomination" for this list. Elizium23 ( talk) 11:47, 16 October 2020 (UTC)