![]() | List of female cabinet ministers of the Republic of Ireland is a featured list, which means it has been identified as one of the best lists produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured list on October 12, 2018. | |||||||||
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![]() | A
fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
February 14, 2018. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that there was a 58-year gap between the terms of office of the first and second
women cabinet ministers of the Republic of Ireland? |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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Hi BHG, you objected to my addition because it was "not constitutional offices. This section is about the constitution". However, my addition was not in the 'Constitutiuon' section but in the 'History' section. My addition is factually accurate, no women have held those offices, why should this not be mentioned? I find your revert puzzling! Spleodrach ( talk) 15:06, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
implying other people editing the article would "degrade" it. I think it's v clear that I am applying a quality threshold, rather than sneering at any other edit.
para of its own, thoroughly sourced. Why don't you draft such a para, with sources, and post it in a new section here so we can discuss it?
nowrap=off
to the dates in the main list.
[3] It does reduce the need for scrolling, and to my eyes the effect is less ugly than I feared.@ Spleodrach: thanks for taking the time to try that.
I wrote above that I can see no way of simplifying that complex Irish reality into a set of static job titles per the US list ... unless you are happy to misrepresent the offices held by each person, which I am not.
Sadly, I think your table does misrepresent the reality :(
Yes, I know that the ministries are defined by a 1924 Act, and renamed as needed along the way. But that is merely the legal process which each govt assembles the various civil service units into the blocs which suit its purposes. Many departments have changed so many times along the way that it is clear that the only element of continuity is a building (or set thereof) which is used as needed at any given time.
See e.g. Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht#Statutes: the history in only 41 years is: Economic Planning and Development → Energy → Industry and Energy → Energy → Tourism and Trade → Tourism, Sport and Recreation → Arts, Sport and Tourism → Tourism, Culture and Sport → Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht → Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs → Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht
That's not a mutating body; it's a box which is filled with whatever is needed and labelled as appropriate at the time. It is like a cardboard folder which has been reused so many times that it now has a big bulge from all the overlaid sticker labels, currently filled with property tax details for one of my mansions in Moscow and labelled accordingly, but used 10 years ago for my reign as Queen of Rockall and 20 years ago for minutes of the AGMs of a children's daycare centre. Same physical cardboard wrapper, but the kids stuff was never filed under Moscow, the mansion was never filed under kids, and neither was ever filed under Rockall.
In this case, only 2 of the names on your list are used wholly accurately: Frances Fitzgerald as Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, and Harney as Tanaiste.
One is an almost: Mary Coughlan as Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Her actual title was Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food ... but its close enough that I could live with it.
However, the rest are somewhere between half-truths and legal fictions, e.g.:
Even some of the footnotes are half-truths, e.g. The office of Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade was established in 1919
. Actually it was Foreign Affairs/External Affairs 1919–2011, and was combined with Trade only in 2011. It is a historical falsehood to assert that there was a "Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade" at any time between 1919 and 2011.
Even worse, the table says no woman has served as Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade ... whereas the reality is that two women (Harney & Coughlan) have been ministers for Trade, albeit combined with things other than Foreign Affairs. Your table contradicts that historical reality.
And as for The office of Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment was established in 1919
... boggle.
So I'm sorry, but I don't think this is even a starting point for something which should be included in any article, let alone a WP:Featured list.
If you want to cover this accurately, I suggest that you take your focus off any illusion of continuity in the departmental kaleidescope, and focus instead on responsibilities which have not been held by women in Cabinet. So e.g., it is true to say that no woman has held cabinet-level responsibility for Foreign Affairs ... and if you can find an WP:RS for that it could be part of a para. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 23:19, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Even some of the footnotes are half-truths, e.g. The office of Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade was established in 1919. Actually it was Foreign Affairs/External Affairs 1919–2011, and was combined with Trade only in 2011. It is a historical falsehood to assert that there was a "Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade" at any time between 1919 and 2011.... yet you added "No woman has served as Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade"
Even worse, the table says no woman has served as Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade ... whereas the reality is that two women (Harney & Coughlan) have been ministers for Trade, albeit combined with things other than Foreign Affairs. Your table contradicts that historical reality.
escalate, by which I mean go to WP:ANI where others would decide whether and how to persuade you to desist from WP:NPAs and either focus on content or stay off this page. That promise still stands, but I v much hope I will not need to keep it.
Spleodrach (
talk)
10:32, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
@ Spleodrach: did you not read BrownHairedGirl's very lengthy, detailed and thoroughly considered argument under #Offices not held by women? Please stop this badgering. "I don't hear that", ad hominem attacks and temper tantrums are not a substitute for valid argument. — Bilorv (c) (talk) 15:03, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
# | Statement | Is it true? | Is it unambiguous? | Comment |
---|---|---|---|---|
1 | No woman has served in the Cabinet as Minister for Foreign Affairs | ![]() |
![]() |
The title "Minister for Foreign Affairs" existed only from 1919–1922 and 1971–2011 (see Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade). For 56 of the 99 years since 1919, there has not been a cabinet post with the precise title "Minister for Foreign Affairs" ... so the statement lacks precision. |
2 | No woman has served has as Minister for Foreign Affairs | ![]() |
![]() |
All the problems above, plus an extra layer of ambiguity which misleads. Two women (
Creighton and
McEntee) have served as Minister of State within the
Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade as
Minister of State for European Affairs. They were ministers for foreign affairs, but not the Minister for Foreign Affairs. (I know that Spleodrach is v familiar with the history of all these offices and well understands the distinctions, but en.wp readers are non-experts who should may know little or nothing about Irish govts. We need to avoid misleading or confusing them) |
3 | No woman has served has Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade | ![]() |
![]() |
The title "Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade" has existed only since 2011, so a precise reading is true: no woman has held that office in the 7 years it has existed. However the statement does not cover the 92 years 1919–2011, and it misleads the reader by implying that no woman has had responsibility for trade ... whereas two women ( Harney & Coughlan) have been ministers for Trade, albeit combined with things other than Foreign Affairs |
4 | No woman has held the cabinet posts of Minister for Foreign affairs (1919–1922 and 1971–2011), Minister for External affairs (1922—1971), or Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade (since 2011) | ![]() |
![]() |
By setting out the history of the relevant job titles, an accurate and unambiguous history is portrayed, but with horrible verbosity. We should find away to say this accurately but without adding the off-point history of ministerial titles. |
5 | No woman has served as a cabinet minister with responsibility for foreign affairs | ![]() |
![]() |
By avoiding use of the mutating job titles, we get an accurate and unambiguous statement which is also concise. However, it needs to be preceded by an explanation of how the job titles mutate |
6 | No woman has served as a cabinet minister with responsibility for foreign affairs | ![]() |
![]() |
As above, but with no extra words a piped link to
Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade allows a curious reader to see the list of ministers and job titles. (Piped links may not work for other responsibilities, some of which are not set out in a single list) |
@ Spleodrach: I have reverted [6] your edit [7] bypassing redirects to ministerial offices.
two reasons:
-- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 22:02, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
I see that there is no mention of Government Chief Whip (officially Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach) in this article. That seems to be to be a bit of an omission because of the importance of the office. Only two women have held this office, Mary Hanafin was first and mostly recently Regina Doherty. While this office is a junior minister, it is the most senior Minister of State with a (non-voting) seat at the cabinet table. Also, chief whips are usually promoted to senior cabinet level in the next reshuffle. I would have thought that this would have at least merited a footnote in this article. Spleodrach ( talk) 16:52, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Not moved. This is procedural as called for by the opposition, so there is no prejudice toward revisiting this request, if necessary, following further discussion. Have a Great Day and Happy Publishing! ( nac by page mover) Painius put'r there 01:53, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
List of women cabinet ministers of the Republic of Ireland → List of female cabinet ministers of the Republic of Ireland – Wouldn't "female" be a better adjective in this sentence than "woman"? – PhilipTerryGraham ( talk · articles · reviews) 07:47, 14 May 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasu よ! 12:55, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Do not move Iveagh Gardens ( talk) 13:25, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
List of women cabinet ministers of the Republic of Ireland → List of women in the Government of Ireland – I have a small preference for using the formal title of the cabinet in the title of the page. The drawback is that it might not immediately be clear that the Government of Ireland is the cabinet in common parlance, and some may expect to see women Sec Gens. So I'd possibly also consider suggesting List of women ministers in the Government of Ireland. Iveagh Gardens ( talk) 13:08, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
![]() | List of female cabinet ministers of the Republic of Ireland is a featured list, which means it has been identified as one of the best lists produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured list on October 12, 2018. | |||||||||
| ||||||||||
![]() | A
fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
February 14, 2018. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that there was a 58-year gap between the terms of office of the first and second
women cabinet ministers of the Republic of Ireland? |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated FL-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hi BHG, you objected to my addition because it was "not constitutional offices. This section is about the constitution". However, my addition was not in the 'Constitutiuon' section but in the 'History' section. My addition is factually accurate, no women have held those offices, why should this not be mentioned? I find your revert puzzling! Spleodrach ( talk) 15:06, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
implying other people editing the article would "degrade" it. I think it's v clear that I am applying a quality threshold, rather than sneering at any other edit.
para of its own, thoroughly sourced. Why don't you draft such a para, with sources, and post it in a new section here so we can discuss it?
nowrap=off
to the dates in the main list.
[3] It does reduce the need for scrolling, and to my eyes the effect is less ugly than I feared.@ Spleodrach: thanks for taking the time to try that.
I wrote above that I can see no way of simplifying that complex Irish reality into a set of static job titles per the US list ... unless you are happy to misrepresent the offices held by each person, which I am not.
Sadly, I think your table does misrepresent the reality :(
Yes, I know that the ministries are defined by a 1924 Act, and renamed as needed along the way. But that is merely the legal process which each govt assembles the various civil service units into the blocs which suit its purposes. Many departments have changed so many times along the way that it is clear that the only element of continuity is a building (or set thereof) which is used as needed at any given time.
See e.g. Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht#Statutes: the history in only 41 years is: Economic Planning and Development → Energy → Industry and Energy → Energy → Tourism and Trade → Tourism, Sport and Recreation → Arts, Sport and Tourism → Tourism, Culture and Sport → Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht → Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs → Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht
That's not a mutating body; it's a box which is filled with whatever is needed and labelled as appropriate at the time. It is like a cardboard folder which has been reused so many times that it now has a big bulge from all the overlaid sticker labels, currently filled with property tax details for one of my mansions in Moscow and labelled accordingly, but used 10 years ago for my reign as Queen of Rockall and 20 years ago for minutes of the AGMs of a children's daycare centre. Same physical cardboard wrapper, but the kids stuff was never filed under Moscow, the mansion was never filed under kids, and neither was ever filed under Rockall.
In this case, only 2 of the names on your list are used wholly accurately: Frances Fitzgerald as Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, and Harney as Tanaiste.
One is an almost: Mary Coughlan as Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Her actual title was Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food ... but its close enough that I could live with it.
However, the rest are somewhere between half-truths and legal fictions, e.g.:
Even some of the footnotes are half-truths, e.g. The office of Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade was established in 1919
. Actually it was Foreign Affairs/External Affairs 1919–2011, and was combined with Trade only in 2011. It is a historical falsehood to assert that there was a "Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade" at any time between 1919 and 2011.
Even worse, the table says no woman has served as Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade ... whereas the reality is that two women (Harney & Coughlan) have been ministers for Trade, albeit combined with things other than Foreign Affairs. Your table contradicts that historical reality.
And as for The office of Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment was established in 1919
... boggle.
So I'm sorry, but I don't think this is even a starting point for something which should be included in any article, let alone a WP:Featured list.
If you want to cover this accurately, I suggest that you take your focus off any illusion of continuity in the departmental kaleidescope, and focus instead on responsibilities which have not been held by women in Cabinet. So e.g., it is true to say that no woman has held cabinet-level responsibility for Foreign Affairs ... and if you can find an WP:RS for that it could be part of a para. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 23:19, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Even some of the footnotes are half-truths, e.g. The office of Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade was established in 1919. Actually it was Foreign Affairs/External Affairs 1919–2011, and was combined with Trade only in 2011. It is a historical falsehood to assert that there was a "Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade" at any time between 1919 and 2011.... yet you added "No woman has served as Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade"
Even worse, the table says no woman has served as Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade ... whereas the reality is that two women (Harney & Coughlan) have been ministers for Trade, albeit combined with things other than Foreign Affairs. Your table contradicts that historical reality.
escalate, by which I mean go to WP:ANI where others would decide whether and how to persuade you to desist from WP:NPAs and either focus on content or stay off this page. That promise still stands, but I v much hope I will not need to keep it.
Spleodrach (
talk)
10:32, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
@ Spleodrach: did you not read BrownHairedGirl's very lengthy, detailed and thoroughly considered argument under #Offices not held by women? Please stop this badgering. "I don't hear that", ad hominem attacks and temper tantrums are not a substitute for valid argument. — Bilorv (c) (talk) 15:03, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
# | Statement | Is it true? | Is it unambiguous? | Comment |
---|---|---|---|---|
1 | No woman has served in the Cabinet as Minister for Foreign Affairs | ![]() |
![]() |
The title "Minister for Foreign Affairs" existed only from 1919–1922 and 1971–2011 (see Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade). For 56 of the 99 years since 1919, there has not been a cabinet post with the precise title "Minister for Foreign Affairs" ... so the statement lacks precision. |
2 | No woman has served has as Minister for Foreign Affairs | ![]() |
![]() |
All the problems above, plus an extra layer of ambiguity which misleads. Two women (
Creighton and
McEntee) have served as Minister of State within the
Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade as
Minister of State for European Affairs. They were ministers for foreign affairs, but not the Minister for Foreign Affairs. (I know that Spleodrach is v familiar with the history of all these offices and well understands the distinctions, but en.wp readers are non-experts who should may know little or nothing about Irish govts. We need to avoid misleading or confusing them) |
3 | No woman has served has Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade | ![]() |
![]() |
The title "Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade" has existed only since 2011, so a precise reading is true: no woman has held that office in the 7 years it has existed. However the statement does not cover the 92 years 1919–2011, and it misleads the reader by implying that no woman has had responsibility for trade ... whereas two women ( Harney & Coughlan) have been ministers for Trade, albeit combined with things other than Foreign Affairs |
4 | No woman has held the cabinet posts of Minister for Foreign affairs (1919–1922 and 1971–2011), Minister for External affairs (1922—1971), or Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade (since 2011) | ![]() |
![]() |
By setting out the history of the relevant job titles, an accurate and unambiguous history is portrayed, but with horrible verbosity. We should find away to say this accurately but without adding the off-point history of ministerial titles. |
5 | No woman has served as a cabinet minister with responsibility for foreign affairs | ![]() |
![]() |
By avoiding use of the mutating job titles, we get an accurate and unambiguous statement which is also concise. However, it needs to be preceded by an explanation of how the job titles mutate |
6 | No woman has served as a cabinet minister with responsibility for foreign affairs | ![]() |
![]() |
As above, but with no extra words a piped link to
Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade allows a curious reader to see the list of ministers and job titles. (Piped links may not work for other responsibilities, some of which are not set out in a single list) |
@ Spleodrach: I have reverted [6] your edit [7] bypassing redirects to ministerial offices.
two reasons:
-- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 22:02, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
I see that there is no mention of Government Chief Whip (officially Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach) in this article. That seems to be to be a bit of an omission because of the importance of the office. Only two women have held this office, Mary Hanafin was first and mostly recently Regina Doherty. While this office is a junior minister, it is the most senior Minister of State with a (non-voting) seat at the cabinet table. Also, chief whips are usually promoted to senior cabinet level in the next reshuffle. I would have thought that this would have at least merited a footnote in this article. Spleodrach ( talk) 16:52, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Not moved. This is procedural as called for by the opposition, so there is no prejudice toward revisiting this request, if necessary, following further discussion. Have a Great Day and Happy Publishing! ( nac by page mover) Painius put'r there 01:53, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
List of women cabinet ministers of the Republic of Ireland → List of female cabinet ministers of the Republic of Ireland – Wouldn't "female" be a better adjective in this sentence than "woman"? – PhilipTerryGraham ( talk · articles · reviews) 07:47, 14 May 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasu よ! 12:55, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Do not move Iveagh Gardens ( talk) 13:25, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
List of women cabinet ministers of the Republic of Ireland → List of women in the Government of Ireland – I have a small preference for using the formal title of the cabinet in the title of the page. The drawback is that it might not immediately be clear that the Government of Ireland is the cabinet in common parlance, and some may expect to see women Sec Gens. So I'd possibly also consider suggesting List of women ministers in the Government of Ireland. Iveagh Gardens ( talk) 13:08, 12 February 2020 (UTC)