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Quite alot of the equipment have sources that simply state something like "one or two seen here and there", does it make sense to then specify the quanity like it has been done in lot of the vehicle sections? J.K Nakkila ( talk) 16:40, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
Do we have any other sources that in Donbass operates Iskander other than one Azov commander once said so? Does not seem very reliable source. And if it needs to be listed, why could it not be listed as ukrainian claim if there are no other sources of this? (it was marked as such, but this got deleted) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.47.107.241 ( talk) 22:19, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
This article uses some sources aimed at trying to prove, that all the separatists' equipment was captured exclusively from the Ukrainian forces and didn't come from Russia. For example the Lost Armour site is highly dubious. Apparently, it is maintained by the separatists (or their supporters).
Many of the links are also quoting separatists and come from Russian state-owned news agencies like RIA Novosti. These are biased sources, of course, as Russia denies involvment in the Ukrainian war.
For example, the biased sources never mention of exclusively Russian equipment seen and filmed in use by DPR and LPR forces, like:
All of these items were developed in Russia after Soviet Union break down. All of them are not in service in any of the Ukrainian forces. -- Amakuha ( talk) 12:25, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
A recent quote regarding the issue:
Such reports of captured "trophy" hardware were common at the time [Summer 2014] and we suspect that many were in fact disinformation, intended to provide plausible deniability to the presence of such weapons in separatist hands, supplied by Russia.
— Pierre Vaux, Catherine A. Fitzpatrick [1]
-- Amakuha ( talk) 10:38, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
Hi,
Many people here are probably wondering about the presence of the Pantsir-S1 in Ukraine. Although there are those who claim that multiple sources support such a presence, a closer look at the sources themselves will show that the information is too controversial to be supported by such few sources.
The following sources are used to "support" the "fact" that the Pantsir-S1 is in Ukraine:
It appears as if there are at least five sources that support the claim. Since the claim is very controversial, multiple sources must be given for such a claim to stay according to WP:FRINGE. But let's have a closer look.
ARES: Although this is a reliable source, the Armament Research Services themselves explicitly made it clear that they themselves cannot verify this inquiry and only mentions it as a possiblity. There is also a usage of sources like social media and YouTube which are not reliable despite ARES normally being a reliable source.
Jane's International: This is a very reliable source and should never be considered otherwise. In fact, this reliable source explicitly said that "this cannot be independently verified by IHS Jane's".
Foreign and Commonwealth office: This is a reliable source. However, one reliable source isn't enough to keep such an extremely controversial claim.
Business Insider: This source cites the Foreign and Commonwealth office and is therefore not considered an additional source.
Bellingcat Vehicles: It's not clear if this is a reliable source at all. Even if it is, then you have a total of two sources that support the claim of the Pantsir-S1 in Ukraine. This is not the "multiple" needed for a controversial claim.
Khazar ( talk) 01:19, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Important side note: This qualifies as an expectional claim since the majority of the mainstream media has not even covered this story, multiple high-quality sources are required. Khazar ( talk) 01:32, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Ping User:Iryna Harpy, I don't feel like the talk above waranted the deletion. Could you clarify here before you delete it? J.K Nakkila ( talk) 23:15, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
"If using the link as a source to support article content, then you must establish that the uploader and the video meet the standards for a reliable source.". That means that, if it's a self-published source with no secondary source evaluation, it's disqualified as an RS.
The article is citing censor.net which has 42 seconds of footage of a group 8 men in uniforms walking in a street with civilians, reportedly in Luhansk.
The article reports that the uniformed men are armed with AS Val.
And sure enough, five of them (no. 1 + 2 and 6 + 7 + 8) each have an AS Val slung over their shoulder, the stock folded in, a magazine inserted and no scope mounted.
Two others (3 + 4) appear to be lighting cigarettes without visible weapons. None of the eight carry belt-kits or vests, none of them have visible insignia.
The person appearing fifth (wearing snow-white gloves) also has a rifle slung over the shoulder. That rifle has a magazine inserted + a scope (visible at 31s+34s), a long, non-suppressed barrel and muzzle brake (like that of an SVD) (visible at 23s), the forward attachment point of the sling located like on a SVD (visible at 30s) and a rectangular skeleton stock (visible at 34s). Is this an SVD ? If not, then what? Thanks. Lklundin ( talk) 21:28, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
https://pp.vk.me/c625724/v625724290/358aa/_1Lng03SCc4.jpg
207.35.219.34 ( talk) 22:19, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
https://twitter.com/onlinemagazin/status/556034738247720960
207.35.219.34 ( talk) 19:48, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
http://i.imgur.com/UJw1raV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Jy8diCL.jpg
207.35.219.34 ( talk) 20:57, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
This article is still rife with references from unreliable sources (self-published, etc.). I'm not even going to bother mentioning that Wikipedia is an encyclopaedic resource, not " The Boy's Own Paper" for rip-snorting tales of daring-do. Please find WP:RS for all of the equipment listed or I will seriously clear away anything and everything that isn't reliably sourced. Note that LostArmour, "The Huffington Post" on its own, home videos uploaded to YouTube, tweets from someone who has an opinion, etc. are not RS. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 00:25, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm concerned that so many of these sources are Ukrainian. That really undermines their credibility. If we could get sources from unbiased countries (Xinhua, Al Jazeera, et al) that would be great. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.14.103.136 ( talk) 23:38, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
The following source is used as a reference, that Russian guns AS Val and VSS Vintorez are used in Ukraine:
But the source doesn't say this explicitly. It just has pictures of some men without insignia (supposedly Ukrainian special forces) with something similar to AS Val and VSS Vintorez. It doesn't say:
Another source is this, but it's unreliable (forum). With photos of unidentified men again. -- Amakuha ( talk) 12:05, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
I deleted the section about camouflage. I checked 5 random links, and all of them are original research. Sometimes it's just a photo. None of the links seems to identify and analyse camouflage types of the insurgents. -- Amakuha ( talk) 07:09, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
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Why are vehicles that were confirmed to be captured by the Russian Armed Forces in 2022 automatically added to the equipment totals? Many of those captured have not been confirmed to be pressed into service in the LPR/DPR, so those total numbers of vehicles in service are made up. 2600:1000:B062:3607:38E6:454:47CF:5988 ( talk) 22:39, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
List of equipment used by Russian people's militias in Ukraine article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Quite alot of the equipment have sources that simply state something like "one or two seen here and there", does it make sense to then specify the quanity like it has been done in lot of the vehicle sections? J.K Nakkila ( talk) 16:40, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
Do we have any other sources that in Donbass operates Iskander other than one Azov commander once said so? Does not seem very reliable source. And if it needs to be listed, why could it not be listed as ukrainian claim if there are no other sources of this? (it was marked as such, but this got deleted) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.47.107.241 ( talk) 22:19, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
This article uses some sources aimed at trying to prove, that all the separatists' equipment was captured exclusively from the Ukrainian forces and didn't come from Russia. For example the Lost Armour site is highly dubious. Apparently, it is maintained by the separatists (or their supporters).
Many of the links are also quoting separatists and come from Russian state-owned news agencies like RIA Novosti. These are biased sources, of course, as Russia denies involvment in the Ukrainian war.
For example, the biased sources never mention of exclusively Russian equipment seen and filmed in use by DPR and LPR forces, like:
All of these items were developed in Russia after Soviet Union break down. All of them are not in service in any of the Ukrainian forces. -- Amakuha ( talk) 12:25, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
A recent quote regarding the issue:
Such reports of captured "trophy" hardware were common at the time [Summer 2014] and we suspect that many were in fact disinformation, intended to provide plausible deniability to the presence of such weapons in separatist hands, supplied by Russia.
— Pierre Vaux, Catherine A. Fitzpatrick [1]
-- Amakuha ( talk) 10:38, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
Hi,
Many people here are probably wondering about the presence of the Pantsir-S1 in Ukraine. Although there are those who claim that multiple sources support such a presence, a closer look at the sources themselves will show that the information is too controversial to be supported by such few sources.
The following sources are used to "support" the "fact" that the Pantsir-S1 is in Ukraine:
It appears as if there are at least five sources that support the claim. Since the claim is very controversial, multiple sources must be given for such a claim to stay according to WP:FRINGE. But let's have a closer look.
ARES: Although this is a reliable source, the Armament Research Services themselves explicitly made it clear that they themselves cannot verify this inquiry and only mentions it as a possiblity. There is also a usage of sources like social media and YouTube which are not reliable despite ARES normally being a reliable source.
Jane's International: This is a very reliable source and should never be considered otherwise. In fact, this reliable source explicitly said that "this cannot be independently verified by IHS Jane's".
Foreign and Commonwealth office: This is a reliable source. However, one reliable source isn't enough to keep such an extremely controversial claim.
Business Insider: This source cites the Foreign and Commonwealth office and is therefore not considered an additional source.
Bellingcat Vehicles: It's not clear if this is a reliable source at all. Even if it is, then you have a total of two sources that support the claim of the Pantsir-S1 in Ukraine. This is not the "multiple" needed for a controversial claim.
Khazar ( talk) 01:19, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Important side note: This qualifies as an expectional claim since the majority of the mainstream media has not even covered this story, multiple high-quality sources are required. Khazar ( talk) 01:32, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Ping User:Iryna Harpy, I don't feel like the talk above waranted the deletion. Could you clarify here before you delete it? J.K Nakkila ( talk) 23:15, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
"If using the link as a source to support article content, then you must establish that the uploader and the video meet the standards for a reliable source.". That means that, if it's a self-published source with no secondary source evaluation, it's disqualified as an RS.
The article is citing censor.net which has 42 seconds of footage of a group 8 men in uniforms walking in a street with civilians, reportedly in Luhansk.
The article reports that the uniformed men are armed with AS Val.
And sure enough, five of them (no. 1 + 2 and 6 + 7 + 8) each have an AS Val slung over their shoulder, the stock folded in, a magazine inserted and no scope mounted.
Two others (3 + 4) appear to be lighting cigarettes without visible weapons. None of the eight carry belt-kits or vests, none of them have visible insignia.
The person appearing fifth (wearing snow-white gloves) also has a rifle slung over the shoulder. That rifle has a magazine inserted + a scope (visible at 31s+34s), a long, non-suppressed barrel and muzzle brake (like that of an SVD) (visible at 23s), the forward attachment point of the sling located like on a SVD (visible at 30s) and a rectangular skeleton stock (visible at 34s). Is this an SVD ? If not, then what? Thanks. Lklundin ( talk) 21:28, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
https://pp.vk.me/c625724/v625724290/358aa/_1Lng03SCc4.jpg
207.35.219.34 ( talk) 22:19, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
https://twitter.com/onlinemagazin/status/556034738247720960
207.35.219.34 ( talk) 19:48, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
http://i.imgur.com/UJw1raV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Jy8diCL.jpg
207.35.219.34 ( talk) 20:57, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
This article is still rife with references from unreliable sources (self-published, etc.). I'm not even going to bother mentioning that Wikipedia is an encyclopaedic resource, not " The Boy's Own Paper" for rip-snorting tales of daring-do. Please find WP:RS for all of the equipment listed or I will seriously clear away anything and everything that isn't reliably sourced. Note that LostArmour, "The Huffington Post" on its own, home videos uploaded to YouTube, tweets from someone who has an opinion, etc. are not RS. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 00:25, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm concerned that so many of these sources are Ukrainian. That really undermines their credibility. If we could get sources from unbiased countries (Xinhua, Al Jazeera, et al) that would be great. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.14.103.136 ( talk) 23:38, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
The following source is used as a reference, that Russian guns AS Val and VSS Vintorez are used in Ukraine:
But the source doesn't say this explicitly. It just has pictures of some men without insignia (supposedly Ukrainian special forces) with something similar to AS Val and VSS Vintorez. It doesn't say:
Another source is this, but it's unreliable (forum). With photos of unidentified men again. -- Amakuha ( talk) 12:05, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
I deleted the section about camouflage. I checked 5 random links, and all of them are original research. Sometimes it's just a photo. None of the links seems to identify and analyse camouflage types of the insurgents. -- Amakuha ( talk) 07:09, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
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Why are vehicles that were confirmed to be captured by the Russian Armed Forces in 2022 automatically added to the equipment totals? Many of those captured have not been confirmed to be pressed into service in the LPR/DPR, so those total numbers of vehicles in service are made up. 2600:1000:B062:3607:38E6:454:47CF:5988 ( talk) 22:39, 2 November 2022 (UTC)