![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
![]() | This archive covers discussions from March 2008 to August 2009. Note that discussions are archived chronologically in the order in which they concluded, not the order in which they began. |
Is there a reason why FOB is on the list twice? If not I'm going to delete one of them. (Please note I'm not talking about sources) -- 13Tawaazun14 ( talk) 00:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
How about this article is moved to something where it is a list of bands that have been called emo. But it couldn't be if we find one website that calls a band emo, that means we put it on the list. A band should only be put on the list if atleast 3 sources say thet band is emo. And we should note that it is a "list of bands called emo", not "emo bands". How's that? -- icelandic hur ricane #12 (talk) 15:25, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Please, please! The most of these bands have nothing in common with emo! Nothing! --[ | Mc-ralph] 88.75.65.185 ( talk) 23:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Mainstream magazines do not come into whether a band is Emo, in genre, or not. It's the sound. A band such as 'Bring Me The Horizon' is a deathcore band, due to its heaviness and guttural vocals. It even says it on their Wikipedia page - Bring Me The Horizon!! In most of these bands pages, in the Genre section it says Alternative rock. Emo is a sub-genre of punk! How does a Deathcore band become Emo? Bands such as Rites of Spring and Sunny Day Real Estate are true to the genre, but not My Chemical Romance or Taking Back Sunday. Fall Out Boy are pop punk, always have been. I have no idea why they are suddenly emo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sigmund Strife ( talk • contribs) 00:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
They are the pionners of the LOVE METAL!!!!! stupids Ignorants wikipedia!!! HIM=love metal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.248.44.241 ( talk) 17:27, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
it s not emo because they classified as POST GRUNGE and Rock alternative and your My Space, and Hate to all those who believe that every artist with black long hair (like a THE BEATLES,pioneers of the hairstyle,and they are not!!!! EMO) is emo! They share a tour with bands POST GRUNGE like a:NICKELBACK,BREAKING BENJAMIN and SETHEER THREE DAYS GRACE= POST GRUNGE and ROCK ALTERNATIVE!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.248.44.241 ( talk) 00:33, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I personally don't think all these groups are emo, but i'm not arguing. Note it says that it says "have been called emo", not "are emo". So don't argue about this, because this isn't a list of "emo bands", its a list of bands that are often called "emo", and these bands are definetly in that category. -- icelandic hur ricane #12 (talk) 00:32, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
MCR, PATD, Hawthorne Heights, Fall Out Boy, Dashboard Confessional, and The Used are not emo. Pop Punk is not emo. These "verifiable sources" aren't very good. Just because those websites (I looked at MSN, The Village Voice, Music & nightlife, The Michigan Daily, and Rolling Stone) say they are, doesn't mean that they are. They all seem to think emo is the stereotype. MSN even says "Is emo a movement, a catchphrase or just a euphemism for guys with guitars and mascara?" which, in my opinion, pretty much explains that they don't know what they're talking about. The Village Voice says "MySpace emo" which I think means that they are talking about the stereotype. The Michigan Daily says "Emo, short for "emotional" rock, is the toddler-aged genre sweeping the industry with a fever and momentum unseen since the early, pop-punk infused 1990s." Emo isn't Pop Punk. The Michigan Daily also says "and cry their way into new musical territory." Stereotype. These aren't reliable sources. -- Tyler5794 ( talk) 00:25, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
right for a start its a bit drastic that the person who started this put "there's not a single emo band on here" What? hhhmmm Rites Of Spring weren't emo? Sunny Day Real Estate weren't emo? as the emo article on wikipedia says the sound has canged over three waves. The Hardcore stuff, The indie stuff and the modern day stuff. the latest Deep Elm (the people who claimed the genre in the 90s) claim that emo now should be the combination of indie and Hardcore. So i'd class that as Thursday and Alexisonfire wouldn't you? As for Fall Out Boy and My Chemical Romance they are an embarrassment and anyway what does all this matter. A group of people who like to be different like these bands and the media calls it Emo who cares? its stuff like this that causes assaults on our streets, unnecessary hatred. i cant get on a bus anymore without been hassled by someone, weather it be a rocker or a chav! stop the hating and at the end of the day IT DOESN'T MATTER!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.209.105 ( talk • contribs) 22:11, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
not opinion personal? ok, but this list is your opinion personal! """neonwhite""" and """13Tawaazun14 """ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.248.44.241 ( talk • contribs) 16:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
added a source for thursday and tokyo hotel dissapeard...WTF? -- 13Tawaazun14 ( talk) 19:28, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
NVM... fixed it. -- 13Tawaazun14 ( talk) 19:30, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
New one, added source for Thursday and Thrice, ref part of the article has them as 1 and 2. How do I fix that? -- 13Tawaazun14 ( talk) 22:20, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Next to Underoath there is a link to the next step article...reason for this? -- 13Tawaazun14 ( talk) 23:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
"In an even more expanded way than in the 90s, emo has come to encompass an extremely wide variety of bands, many of whom have very little in common. The term has become so broad that it has become nearly impossible to describe what exactly qualifies as "emo"." - It seems to be that the groups that this statement encompasses occupy the vast majority of this article, Fall Out Boy, Paramore, The Academy Is, etc. etc.. Very few of the bands mentioned in the article itself seem to have made it to this list for whatever reason. -- 122.106.53.121 ( talk) 13:50, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
This is in need of attention from an expert. Coheed and Cambria brings doubts, the failure to mention anything pre-1995 seals them in my mind. Synchronizing with Category:Emo musical groups could be a start. Regardless, this needs serious work. -- Caribouforyou ( talk) 00:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm trying to find a sorce for Death Cab For Cutie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.34.236 ( talk • contribs) 22:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
That was a lot of vandalism and it's not all gone. Is it possible to get some one to semi protect this page?( 13Tawaazun14 not signed in) -- 71.179.227.101 ( talk) 01:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I seem to be having trouble viewing the source for Rise Against. The ref section says it is invalid. Any one else having trouble with this? -- 71.179.227.101 ( talk) 19:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Just cheked it and it doesn't seem to be properly sourced, Deleted. It just says : ref name=cbs...that's it? -- 71.179.227.101 ( talk) 19:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Some of the bands here seem to have been up for a while without being sourced. The 3 I'm refering to are Alesana, Blessthefall and Elliott. Can I delete them or should I let them stay a bit longer? -- 13Tawaazun14 ( talk) 18:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
As I read in the talk page, there is a lot of confusion of the name List of emo artists. So I think the name of the article should be renamed to List of artists called emo. -- 008'/,treme ( talk) 15:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Seriously. Compare this to the real deal and you'd see that this page is just pop and rock straight out of MTV and has absolutely NOTHING to do with emo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.17.67.7 ( talk • contribs) 10:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
hm.... im a bit puzzled here... the article is named "list of emo band", yet there's not a single emo band in the entire list.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Realmeneatcorn ( talk • contribs) 14:48, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Fall Out Boy May not be emo but they are not possers, Alexisonfire is so screamo so they arent even close to emo, from first to last is emo they are entirely an emo band... so ha! -Victoria Emma A Rock Knoe It All —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.177.183.243 ( talk) 17:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
In my opinion Simple Plan is not emo and there is no source either. Should we keep it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.34.236 ( talk) 22:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Not one of these listed bands are of the genre emo. Most of these bands are either post-hardcore, Pop Punk, [[Pop Rock], Alternative Rock, and even Progressive Rock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Postcore ( talk • contribs) 03:30, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Just because MTV says it doesn't make it true. -- Themikeg ( talk) 11:54, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Wanna make a list of emo-groupes? then ask the band not the mongols with their opinions! Ill even make you a list! and plz dont ever put FOB in the list of emo-bands! Its an embaressemend to all Emo's if they are put in that list. If they aught to be put in a list, then put them on the "Things-To-Do-list" next to "take out the trash" or prefirably with the trash! Have a bad day! Bye! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.23.33.179 ( talk) 18:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
MCR and FOB. I found these two bands on the F****** list!!. The resources are MSN and another. Those are NOT reputable resources. If you listen to FOB, you will know that it is POP PUNK not EMO. Although, they admire an emo band, this don't mean that they are emo also. MCR is not emo. It is just a piece of crap when they are classified as emo. When you listen to any song on any of their first albums, you will know that they are PUNK ROCK. PUNK ROCK is different from emo, so please make the sources reputable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.76.208.226 ( talk • contribs) 11:44, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
My Chemical Romance is not emo. Alexisonfire is not emo, Fall Out Boy? just posers. Real emo music is emocore emo violence, screamo, emopunk, indie/emorock. -- Jpkmaster ( talk) 05:25, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
My Chemical Romance's music has been described by the media as "pop punk", "alternative rock", "post-hardcore" and "punk revival". The band themselves described their music as simply "rock" or "violent, dangerous pop" on their official website, as well as rejecting the term "emo" to describe their style. Although a source quotes frontman Gerard Way stating that they are "What-else-ya-got-emo", Way has recently stated in an interview that they were never emo, as he says emo is "a pile of shit." -My Chemical Romance - Wikipedia
While widely considered to be a pop punk and rock band, Fall Out Boy is often described as emo -Fall Out Boy - Wikipedia
←Oh my, the media beats the fact. The fact's helpless. Go media go!! LOL. It looks like Wikipedia is on the media's side. Oh well, it's better to leave this page alone, the media's undefeatable, since it has many alies. -- Kurniasan ( talk) 06:14, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
After adding "although most of these bands play a diversity of genres not similar to emo at all" it was deleted and I was told to add reliable sources. THERE ARE LIKE 2 EMO BANDS ON THE LIST! The rest play pop, rock, metalcore and other. They must have SOOOOOOOO reliable sources when they have a full list of bands which do not play emo at all. None of the sources here can be reliable if they contain false facts. -- 217.210.87.80 ( talk) 19:26, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
As this article contains false statements, very few emo bands, bad sources, many unsourced artists, badly sourced artists etc etc etc I have put it up for deletion. I can see that nearly everyone on this discussion page agrees with me on this. If the media says Britney Spears plays death metal, she still plays pop. Now, thanks and I hope this article is deleted since wikipedia is supposed to be based on facts. (as it is an encyclopedia) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.210.87.80 ( talk • contribs) 16:02, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
←You have demonstrated a fundamental misunderstanding of how wikipedia works. I highly recommend reading WP:V and WP:NOR before contributing further. Especially take note of the line The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia already has been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Wikipedia is not a place for publishing personal views nor is it a soapbox for personal 'missions'. Disrupting wikipedia to prove a point will get you blocked. --neon white talk 18:10, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
Um, when was MSN considered a reliable source for music genres? I don't seem to recall them having any sort history pertaing to music genres aside from selling the occasional album or two. Anyone have information about this? -- 13Tawaazun14 ( talk) 05:17, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Fugazi need to be deleted from the list, unless you consider a photograph of them on MSN to be a reliable source. -- Jaccob ( talk) 13:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
What about Green Day? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.19.241.215 ( talk) 23:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Just that. However I do think that neon white, 13Tawaazun14 and Jakisbak know that most of the bands listed here are not emo at all, but that's the way wikipedia works. Sources and references are everything. -- Kmaster ( talk) 18:49, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
The current reference for AFI is an article in a college newspaper. [3] and seems to be little more than the opinion of a college student. After a little digging I discovered that issue of whether or not sites sponsored by the college publishing network (such as the one in question) constitute a reliable resource had already been raised at the WP:Verifiability talk page, further more it had been raised in reference to bands. The consensus was that should not be considered a reliable resource unless the author has been established as an authority on the subject. There is nothing in the article in question and as such the reference should be removed. Please note that I am not opposed to AFI being included on this list, I am simply opposed to using college papers as a source to establish genre. -- Aurum ore ( talk) 00:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
If there's no objection then I'd like to remove AFI from the list, only until a more reliable source can be found. Again, its not their inclusion to the list that I object to, only the reference being used. -- Aurum ore ( talk) 00:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I think Chiodos should be added. Seriously, check out their Myspace they say their n Emo band... -- Kohilaice ( talk) 15:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
ITT: Butthurt emos pretend to know what music is. (Protip: Only an emo would say these bands are not emo. By democratic rule, you lose, and they are emo). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.9.195.139 ( talk) 10:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
"Emo bands tour almost exclusively with other emo bands: Silverstein’s current tour is in support of Rise Against, and also features Winnipeg’s Comeback Kid." This statement is not being clear at all that the bands named are being called emo. Allow me to expand. The source states that "Emo bands tour almost exclusively with other emo bands..." the term almost throws doubt on the claim. It then says that "...Silverstein’s current tour is in support of Rise Against, and also features Winnipeg’s Comeback Kid.", The source does not explicitly state that either Rise Against or Comeback kids are emo and is not being clear. It says emo bands almost always tour with other emo bands and then throws the names of two other bands. In this case the source is not being clear. Let me make this clear, however, this is not about the bands but rather the source. I’m not opposed to these bands being on the list as long as they are properly sourced, this isn’t it though. -- 13Tawaazun14 ( talk) 15:47, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
"With its ecstatic fans and general mood of mutual support, emo is a self-sufficient scene. Emo bands tour almost exclusively with other emo bands: Silverstein’s current tour is in support of Rise Against, and also features Winnipeg’s Comeback Kid."
Paramore is not emo!They are not have any relation with emo!I don't care sources!THEY ARE NOT EMO!!! -- Emo girl 666 ( talk) 17:01, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't this page be named "List of artists that have had their music reffered to as emo"? Calling it "List of emo artists" will make people believe that those bands actually play emo. -- EmoArticle ( talk) 17:49, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
Neither of these artists are emo. Anyone heard Pretty. Odd. by Panic At The Disco? As far from 'emo' as you could get! -- 59.167.96.126 ( talk) 09:14, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
By what you guys are saying, thy might be but there are some things to consider:
Just stating some of the arguments. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.80.27.46 ( talk) 20:43, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Atreyu are HEAVY METAL. Lately there have been several added groups that have been called pop punk down as emo. That is understandable because emo is a sub-genre of pop punk. But Atreyu is Heavy Metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.34.236 ( talk) 20:38, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, i can hope Fall Out Boy, My Chemical Romance, o others non-emo bands in this list, but...Simple Plan??? Jonas Brothers??? WTF!!! the majority of this bands are not emo, if MTV, Rolling Stones or other magazine say "Fall Out Boy is emo" Fall Out Boy is emo? NO! only for idiots is emo, What have do to do Panic! At The Disco whit Ristes of Springs??? I dont know if Gerard Way (My Chemical Romance's Singer) said "emo is a bullshit, we are not emo" why My Chemical Romance is in this list??? i got to admite: this list if funny! -- 190.30.87.87 ( talk) 20:47, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
some1 is putting red hot chili peppers, bfmv, and metro station and there not emo -- Seth4000 ( talk) 14:28, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
I think Bullet for my Valentine should be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.91.240.134 ( talk • contribs) 17:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
←It's Metalcore. No Myspace is not reliable. It's their own opinion of themselves. Not the opinion of a paid proffesional who deals with music genres. -- 13Tawaazun14 ( talk) 05:21, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
how the hell is slipknot and red hot chili peppers considered emo? -- Seth4000 ( talk) 14:13, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Attention. I think i should just bring this to everybody's attention, i have seen Underoath on this page too many times. They like sing about things related to struggles, hardships, and other matters realted to christianity. So not emo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dylgr ( talk • contribs) 04:27, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Ohh who said that?MCR is not emo...!I'm an emo girl and Mcr said:"Emo is a garbage dump".If you listen Mcr with another emo groups,you can understand that! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.97.8.11 ( talk • contribs) 17:05, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Some of these bands are Post-Hardcore! I suggest either deletion or clean up the list, because if they are on the "list of screamo (Post-Hardcore) bands" article then I believe they should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.209.240.88 ( talk) 17:14, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Why 10% percent of these bands are actually emo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.138.62 ( talk) 21:58, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
If Im correct, Coheed & Cambria are Alternative/Hard Rock, not Emo. -- Maggotface (User talk:Maggotface|talk]]) 23:01, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I looked at the source for the statement that Forever the Sickest Kids are emo, and found an... interesting New York Times article. Here's the specific line from it: "the promising young emo band Forever the Sickest Kids". It also states that Say Anything are 'Emo Veterans'. I looked back at this article, and saw that they were on here. Say Anything formed in 2000. Not only are they NOT veterans of a genre which began in the '80s, but I seriously doubt that they, or FtSK, are emo at all. I'm sure that New York Times fits Wiki's criteria for 'accurate', but seriously. Seriously. -- Albert Mond ( talk) 08:54, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Why is Aiden not on this list? -- 74.69.195.36 ( talk) 01:14, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, so you say if a "reliable source" claims a band is emo, that makes them emo. That's bulls**t. Since when were things like MTV a reliable source? You forget that it was because of these lazy journalists that "emo" is now just a label mtv attaches to any band they want to for the sake of marketing. If you listen to anything Rites of Spring, Indian Summer or Moss Icon, they sound NOTHING like MCR or Chiodos, so to lump them all into one genre is utterly ridiculous. if anything, we should either make more than one list for "first wave emo bands" Second wave emo band" and "third wave emo bands" OR change the title to "list of bands described as emo" -- Yaryck ( talk) 18:06, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
For the following reasons;
Whoever put them on this list obviously just cited some random sources (only 1 of the 3 even describes them as emo) and does not have a good grasp of what emo is and more likely than not knows nothing about Rise Against. Either fix this or lift the protection from this page so I can. -- TM41 ( talk) 02:16, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
←Thanks for the support guys. Even though the first source is biased in calling Rise Against's cover songs "awful" and the second one was written by a non-credible source -- Neon seems to think that both are good enough for Wikipedia. If he's not going to budge, I'd rather not start another edit war. -- TM41 ( talk) 03:36, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
A lot of these are in contradiction to the main articles on these bands. As such, I suspect it has been established on those pages that said bands are not emo, and I think it is misleading to have links here directing to pages that Wiki doesn't itself seem to consider emo. Also, I suspect some of these sources could be misinterpreted. ( Albert Mond ( talk) 06:02, 20 April 2009 (UTC))
NEW YORK— Most bands that fit the "emo" or "hardcore" descriptions follow the same scream-sing/ scream-sing formula, but Coheed and Cambria are bringing something different to the scene.
That something is an unusual blend of prog-rock, emo and sci-fi fantasy. Consequently, the band has often been described as an "emo Rush" due to its elaborate concept albums, 2002's The Second Stage Turbine Blade and 2003's In Keeping Secrets of Silent Earth: 3, which chronicle the continuing saga of two intergalactic characters named Coheed and Cambria. Also, singer/guitarist Claudio Sanchez's high-pitched vocals inescapably recall those of Rush singer Geddy Lee. Nevertheless, the group's potent combination of melodic sensibility and heavy-hitting rock far outweighs any comparisons with other bands.
According to this, Coheed and Cambria is also hardcore. The author doesn't once state in what way Coheed is supposed to be "emo" -probably because they can't. ( Albert Mond ( talk) 06:07, 20 April 2009 (UTC))
←I agree, I think MTV are a perfectly authoritative source for making that claim. And those additional ref's are excellent. As for the AFI bit, I might remove them if I can't find any sources more reliable than that community college paper. -- IllaZilla ( talk) 18:41, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
This page seems like a good one for ongoing semi-protection- perhaps 3 months as a trial? Does anyone support or disagree with this? My rationale is that there are a lot of driveby additions of bands without sources, removals of bands by angry fans, and these are all being done from first-time IPs. tedder ( talk) 07:22, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
There is only one source for listing the band as emo. It even describes the band in the same genre as the All-American Rejects. It seems its reliability is debatable. Anyway, I don't believe Rise Against should be listed here anymore, unless more sources are found labeling the band emo. We don't want to give undue weight to what is obviously a small minority opinion. Does anybody else have thoughts on this? Tim meh 04:11, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't the title be changed to a list of bands Considered emo, as a lot of these bands are only considered emo by a select few. Your views? 92.251.255.13 ( talk) 13:32, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
I know this is based on the views of certain journalists and that, but including BMTH as emo is utterly absurd. Honestly, they aren't even considered emo within most of popular culture, as far as I know. People are going to see this article, and they will either laugh at it, or it will cause them to actually believe that BMTH is an emo band.
What's more, Wiki's article on BMTH doesn't (last I checked) list this band as emo. I haven't checked the source yet, but I'm about to. If it's vague or a bad source, I'll delete the band from this list. If it's anything regarded as reliable, I will gladly continue this argument. ( Albert Mond ( talk) 09:36, 7 August 2009 (UTC))
Update: the addition seems to have been a joke. And actually a rather nice one, at that. Here's the source: Loftus, Johnny. "Bring me the horizon: Biography". Allmusic. [19]. Retrieved on 2009-04-20. "Ontario-based pop-punk/emo/lotsa yelling combo Bring me the horizon included..." Removed. ( Albert Mond ( talk) 09:41, 7 August 2009 (UTC))
Most of the artists listed on this page have only one source. I propose that, to make the list more neutral, we require at least two sources for each artist. This way, we can avoid giving insignificant viewpoints undue weight. The whole NPOV policy does still apply to lists. It clearly states that "the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all". If a significant minority or majority of reliable sources believe an artist is emo, we should have no problem finding at least two sources and citing them here. If we can't find more than one reliable source calling an artist emo, we must view the opinion as that of a tiny minority which has no place on Wikipedia. This proposal is just to ensure that readers are not being misled when seeing this list and that it is completely neutral, and it couldn't hurt anything. So, why not? Tim meh ( review me) 01:28, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
![]() | This archive covers discussions from March 2008 to August 2009. Note that discussions are archived chronologically in the order in which they concluded, not the order in which they began. |
Is there a reason why FOB is on the list twice? If not I'm going to delete one of them. (Please note I'm not talking about sources) -- 13Tawaazun14 ( talk) 00:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
How about this article is moved to something where it is a list of bands that have been called emo. But it couldn't be if we find one website that calls a band emo, that means we put it on the list. A band should only be put on the list if atleast 3 sources say thet band is emo. And we should note that it is a "list of bands called emo", not "emo bands". How's that? -- icelandic hur ricane #12 (talk) 15:25, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Please, please! The most of these bands have nothing in common with emo! Nothing! --[ | Mc-ralph] 88.75.65.185 ( talk) 23:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Mainstream magazines do not come into whether a band is Emo, in genre, or not. It's the sound. A band such as 'Bring Me The Horizon' is a deathcore band, due to its heaviness and guttural vocals. It even says it on their Wikipedia page - Bring Me The Horizon!! In most of these bands pages, in the Genre section it says Alternative rock. Emo is a sub-genre of punk! How does a Deathcore band become Emo? Bands such as Rites of Spring and Sunny Day Real Estate are true to the genre, but not My Chemical Romance or Taking Back Sunday. Fall Out Boy are pop punk, always have been. I have no idea why they are suddenly emo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sigmund Strife ( talk • contribs) 00:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
They are the pionners of the LOVE METAL!!!!! stupids Ignorants wikipedia!!! HIM=love metal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.248.44.241 ( talk) 17:27, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
it s not emo because they classified as POST GRUNGE and Rock alternative and your My Space, and Hate to all those who believe that every artist with black long hair (like a THE BEATLES,pioneers of the hairstyle,and they are not!!!! EMO) is emo! They share a tour with bands POST GRUNGE like a:NICKELBACK,BREAKING BENJAMIN and SETHEER THREE DAYS GRACE= POST GRUNGE and ROCK ALTERNATIVE!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.248.44.241 ( talk) 00:33, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I personally don't think all these groups are emo, but i'm not arguing. Note it says that it says "have been called emo", not "are emo". So don't argue about this, because this isn't a list of "emo bands", its a list of bands that are often called "emo", and these bands are definetly in that category. -- icelandic hur ricane #12 (talk) 00:32, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
MCR, PATD, Hawthorne Heights, Fall Out Boy, Dashboard Confessional, and The Used are not emo. Pop Punk is not emo. These "verifiable sources" aren't very good. Just because those websites (I looked at MSN, The Village Voice, Music & nightlife, The Michigan Daily, and Rolling Stone) say they are, doesn't mean that they are. They all seem to think emo is the stereotype. MSN even says "Is emo a movement, a catchphrase or just a euphemism for guys with guitars and mascara?" which, in my opinion, pretty much explains that they don't know what they're talking about. The Village Voice says "MySpace emo" which I think means that they are talking about the stereotype. The Michigan Daily says "Emo, short for "emotional" rock, is the toddler-aged genre sweeping the industry with a fever and momentum unseen since the early, pop-punk infused 1990s." Emo isn't Pop Punk. The Michigan Daily also says "and cry their way into new musical territory." Stereotype. These aren't reliable sources. -- Tyler5794 ( talk) 00:25, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
right for a start its a bit drastic that the person who started this put "there's not a single emo band on here" What? hhhmmm Rites Of Spring weren't emo? Sunny Day Real Estate weren't emo? as the emo article on wikipedia says the sound has canged over three waves. The Hardcore stuff, The indie stuff and the modern day stuff. the latest Deep Elm (the people who claimed the genre in the 90s) claim that emo now should be the combination of indie and Hardcore. So i'd class that as Thursday and Alexisonfire wouldn't you? As for Fall Out Boy and My Chemical Romance they are an embarrassment and anyway what does all this matter. A group of people who like to be different like these bands and the media calls it Emo who cares? its stuff like this that causes assaults on our streets, unnecessary hatred. i cant get on a bus anymore without been hassled by someone, weather it be a rocker or a chav! stop the hating and at the end of the day IT DOESN'T MATTER!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.209.105 ( talk • contribs) 22:11, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
not opinion personal? ok, but this list is your opinion personal! """neonwhite""" and """13Tawaazun14 """ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.248.44.241 ( talk • contribs) 16:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
added a source for thursday and tokyo hotel dissapeard...WTF? -- 13Tawaazun14 ( talk) 19:28, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
NVM... fixed it. -- 13Tawaazun14 ( talk) 19:30, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
New one, added source for Thursday and Thrice, ref part of the article has them as 1 and 2. How do I fix that? -- 13Tawaazun14 ( talk) 22:20, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Next to Underoath there is a link to the next step article...reason for this? -- 13Tawaazun14 ( talk) 23:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
"In an even more expanded way than in the 90s, emo has come to encompass an extremely wide variety of bands, many of whom have very little in common. The term has become so broad that it has become nearly impossible to describe what exactly qualifies as "emo"." - It seems to be that the groups that this statement encompasses occupy the vast majority of this article, Fall Out Boy, Paramore, The Academy Is, etc. etc.. Very few of the bands mentioned in the article itself seem to have made it to this list for whatever reason. -- 122.106.53.121 ( talk) 13:50, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
This is in need of attention from an expert. Coheed and Cambria brings doubts, the failure to mention anything pre-1995 seals them in my mind. Synchronizing with Category:Emo musical groups could be a start. Regardless, this needs serious work. -- Caribouforyou ( talk) 00:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm trying to find a sorce for Death Cab For Cutie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.34.236 ( talk • contribs) 22:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
That was a lot of vandalism and it's not all gone. Is it possible to get some one to semi protect this page?( 13Tawaazun14 not signed in) -- 71.179.227.101 ( talk) 01:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I seem to be having trouble viewing the source for Rise Against. The ref section says it is invalid. Any one else having trouble with this? -- 71.179.227.101 ( talk) 19:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Just cheked it and it doesn't seem to be properly sourced, Deleted. It just says : ref name=cbs...that's it? -- 71.179.227.101 ( talk) 19:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Some of the bands here seem to have been up for a while without being sourced. The 3 I'm refering to are Alesana, Blessthefall and Elliott. Can I delete them or should I let them stay a bit longer? -- 13Tawaazun14 ( talk) 18:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
As I read in the talk page, there is a lot of confusion of the name List of emo artists. So I think the name of the article should be renamed to List of artists called emo. -- 008'/,treme ( talk) 15:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Seriously. Compare this to the real deal and you'd see that this page is just pop and rock straight out of MTV and has absolutely NOTHING to do with emo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.17.67.7 ( talk • contribs) 10:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
hm.... im a bit puzzled here... the article is named "list of emo band", yet there's not a single emo band in the entire list.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Realmeneatcorn ( talk • contribs) 14:48, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Fall Out Boy May not be emo but they are not possers, Alexisonfire is so screamo so they arent even close to emo, from first to last is emo they are entirely an emo band... so ha! -Victoria Emma A Rock Knoe It All —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.177.183.243 ( talk) 17:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
In my opinion Simple Plan is not emo and there is no source either. Should we keep it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.34.236 ( talk) 22:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Not one of these listed bands are of the genre emo. Most of these bands are either post-hardcore, Pop Punk, [[Pop Rock], Alternative Rock, and even Progressive Rock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Postcore ( talk • contribs) 03:30, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Just because MTV says it doesn't make it true. -- Themikeg ( talk) 11:54, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Wanna make a list of emo-groupes? then ask the band not the mongols with their opinions! Ill even make you a list! and plz dont ever put FOB in the list of emo-bands! Its an embaressemend to all Emo's if they are put in that list. If they aught to be put in a list, then put them on the "Things-To-Do-list" next to "take out the trash" or prefirably with the trash! Have a bad day! Bye! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.23.33.179 ( talk) 18:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
MCR and FOB. I found these two bands on the F****** list!!. The resources are MSN and another. Those are NOT reputable resources. If you listen to FOB, you will know that it is POP PUNK not EMO. Although, they admire an emo band, this don't mean that they are emo also. MCR is not emo. It is just a piece of crap when they are classified as emo. When you listen to any song on any of their first albums, you will know that they are PUNK ROCK. PUNK ROCK is different from emo, so please make the sources reputable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.76.208.226 ( talk • contribs) 11:44, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
My Chemical Romance is not emo. Alexisonfire is not emo, Fall Out Boy? just posers. Real emo music is emocore emo violence, screamo, emopunk, indie/emorock. -- Jpkmaster ( talk) 05:25, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
My Chemical Romance's music has been described by the media as "pop punk", "alternative rock", "post-hardcore" and "punk revival". The band themselves described their music as simply "rock" or "violent, dangerous pop" on their official website, as well as rejecting the term "emo" to describe their style. Although a source quotes frontman Gerard Way stating that they are "What-else-ya-got-emo", Way has recently stated in an interview that they were never emo, as he says emo is "a pile of shit." -My Chemical Romance - Wikipedia
While widely considered to be a pop punk and rock band, Fall Out Boy is often described as emo -Fall Out Boy - Wikipedia
←Oh my, the media beats the fact. The fact's helpless. Go media go!! LOL. It looks like Wikipedia is on the media's side. Oh well, it's better to leave this page alone, the media's undefeatable, since it has many alies. -- Kurniasan ( talk) 06:14, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
After adding "although most of these bands play a diversity of genres not similar to emo at all" it was deleted and I was told to add reliable sources. THERE ARE LIKE 2 EMO BANDS ON THE LIST! The rest play pop, rock, metalcore and other. They must have SOOOOOOOO reliable sources when they have a full list of bands which do not play emo at all. None of the sources here can be reliable if they contain false facts. -- 217.210.87.80 ( talk) 19:26, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
As this article contains false statements, very few emo bands, bad sources, many unsourced artists, badly sourced artists etc etc etc I have put it up for deletion. I can see that nearly everyone on this discussion page agrees with me on this. If the media says Britney Spears plays death metal, she still plays pop. Now, thanks and I hope this article is deleted since wikipedia is supposed to be based on facts. (as it is an encyclopedia) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.210.87.80 ( talk • contribs) 16:02, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
←You have demonstrated a fundamental misunderstanding of how wikipedia works. I highly recommend reading WP:V and WP:NOR before contributing further. Especially take note of the line The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia already has been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Wikipedia is not a place for publishing personal views nor is it a soapbox for personal 'missions'. Disrupting wikipedia to prove a point will get you blocked. --neon white talk 18:10, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
Um, when was MSN considered a reliable source for music genres? I don't seem to recall them having any sort history pertaing to music genres aside from selling the occasional album or two. Anyone have information about this? -- 13Tawaazun14 ( talk) 05:17, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Fugazi need to be deleted from the list, unless you consider a photograph of them on MSN to be a reliable source. -- Jaccob ( talk) 13:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
What about Green Day? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.19.241.215 ( talk) 23:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Just that. However I do think that neon white, 13Tawaazun14 and Jakisbak know that most of the bands listed here are not emo at all, but that's the way wikipedia works. Sources and references are everything. -- Kmaster ( talk) 18:49, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
The current reference for AFI is an article in a college newspaper. [3] and seems to be little more than the opinion of a college student. After a little digging I discovered that issue of whether or not sites sponsored by the college publishing network (such as the one in question) constitute a reliable resource had already been raised at the WP:Verifiability talk page, further more it had been raised in reference to bands. The consensus was that should not be considered a reliable resource unless the author has been established as an authority on the subject. There is nothing in the article in question and as such the reference should be removed. Please note that I am not opposed to AFI being included on this list, I am simply opposed to using college papers as a source to establish genre. -- Aurum ore ( talk) 00:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
If there's no objection then I'd like to remove AFI from the list, only until a more reliable source can be found. Again, its not their inclusion to the list that I object to, only the reference being used. -- Aurum ore ( talk) 00:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I think Chiodos should be added. Seriously, check out their Myspace they say their n Emo band... -- Kohilaice ( talk) 15:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
ITT: Butthurt emos pretend to know what music is. (Protip: Only an emo would say these bands are not emo. By democratic rule, you lose, and they are emo). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.9.195.139 ( talk) 10:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
"Emo bands tour almost exclusively with other emo bands: Silverstein’s current tour is in support of Rise Against, and also features Winnipeg’s Comeback Kid." This statement is not being clear at all that the bands named are being called emo. Allow me to expand. The source states that "Emo bands tour almost exclusively with other emo bands..." the term almost throws doubt on the claim. It then says that "...Silverstein’s current tour is in support of Rise Against, and also features Winnipeg’s Comeback Kid.", The source does not explicitly state that either Rise Against or Comeback kids are emo and is not being clear. It says emo bands almost always tour with other emo bands and then throws the names of two other bands. In this case the source is not being clear. Let me make this clear, however, this is not about the bands but rather the source. I’m not opposed to these bands being on the list as long as they are properly sourced, this isn’t it though. -- 13Tawaazun14 ( talk) 15:47, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
"With its ecstatic fans and general mood of mutual support, emo is a self-sufficient scene. Emo bands tour almost exclusively with other emo bands: Silverstein’s current tour is in support of Rise Against, and also features Winnipeg’s Comeback Kid."
Paramore is not emo!They are not have any relation with emo!I don't care sources!THEY ARE NOT EMO!!! -- Emo girl 666 ( talk) 17:01, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't this page be named "List of artists that have had their music reffered to as emo"? Calling it "List of emo artists" will make people believe that those bands actually play emo. -- EmoArticle ( talk) 17:49, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
Neither of these artists are emo. Anyone heard Pretty. Odd. by Panic At The Disco? As far from 'emo' as you could get! -- 59.167.96.126 ( talk) 09:14, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
By what you guys are saying, thy might be but there are some things to consider:
Just stating some of the arguments. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.80.27.46 ( talk) 20:43, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Atreyu are HEAVY METAL. Lately there have been several added groups that have been called pop punk down as emo. That is understandable because emo is a sub-genre of pop punk. But Atreyu is Heavy Metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.34.236 ( talk) 20:38, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, i can hope Fall Out Boy, My Chemical Romance, o others non-emo bands in this list, but...Simple Plan??? Jonas Brothers??? WTF!!! the majority of this bands are not emo, if MTV, Rolling Stones or other magazine say "Fall Out Boy is emo" Fall Out Boy is emo? NO! only for idiots is emo, What have do to do Panic! At The Disco whit Ristes of Springs??? I dont know if Gerard Way (My Chemical Romance's Singer) said "emo is a bullshit, we are not emo" why My Chemical Romance is in this list??? i got to admite: this list if funny! -- 190.30.87.87 ( talk) 20:47, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
some1 is putting red hot chili peppers, bfmv, and metro station and there not emo -- Seth4000 ( talk) 14:28, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
I think Bullet for my Valentine should be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.91.240.134 ( talk • contribs) 17:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
←It's Metalcore. No Myspace is not reliable. It's their own opinion of themselves. Not the opinion of a paid proffesional who deals with music genres. -- 13Tawaazun14 ( talk) 05:21, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
how the hell is slipknot and red hot chili peppers considered emo? -- Seth4000 ( talk) 14:13, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Attention. I think i should just bring this to everybody's attention, i have seen Underoath on this page too many times. They like sing about things related to struggles, hardships, and other matters realted to christianity. So not emo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dylgr ( talk • contribs) 04:27, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Ohh who said that?MCR is not emo...!I'm an emo girl and Mcr said:"Emo is a garbage dump".If you listen Mcr with another emo groups,you can understand that! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.97.8.11 ( talk • contribs) 17:05, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Some of these bands are Post-Hardcore! I suggest either deletion or clean up the list, because if they are on the "list of screamo (Post-Hardcore) bands" article then I believe they should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.209.240.88 ( talk) 17:14, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Why 10% percent of these bands are actually emo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.138.62 ( talk) 21:58, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
If Im correct, Coheed & Cambria are Alternative/Hard Rock, not Emo. -- Maggotface (User talk:Maggotface|talk]]) 23:01, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I looked at the source for the statement that Forever the Sickest Kids are emo, and found an... interesting New York Times article. Here's the specific line from it: "the promising young emo band Forever the Sickest Kids". It also states that Say Anything are 'Emo Veterans'. I looked back at this article, and saw that they were on here. Say Anything formed in 2000. Not only are they NOT veterans of a genre which began in the '80s, but I seriously doubt that they, or FtSK, are emo at all. I'm sure that New York Times fits Wiki's criteria for 'accurate', but seriously. Seriously. -- Albert Mond ( talk) 08:54, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Why is Aiden not on this list? -- 74.69.195.36 ( talk) 01:14, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, so you say if a "reliable source" claims a band is emo, that makes them emo. That's bulls**t. Since when were things like MTV a reliable source? You forget that it was because of these lazy journalists that "emo" is now just a label mtv attaches to any band they want to for the sake of marketing. If you listen to anything Rites of Spring, Indian Summer or Moss Icon, they sound NOTHING like MCR or Chiodos, so to lump them all into one genre is utterly ridiculous. if anything, we should either make more than one list for "first wave emo bands" Second wave emo band" and "third wave emo bands" OR change the title to "list of bands described as emo" -- Yaryck ( talk) 18:06, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
For the following reasons;
Whoever put them on this list obviously just cited some random sources (only 1 of the 3 even describes them as emo) and does not have a good grasp of what emo is and more likely than not knows nothing about Rise Against. Either fix this or lift the protection from this page so I can. -- TM41 ( talk) 02:16, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
←Thanks for the support guys. Even though the first source is biased in calling Rise Against's cover songs "awful" and the second one was written by a non-credible source -- Neon seems to think that both are good enough for Wikipedia. If he's not going to budge, I'd rather not start another edit war. -- TM41 ( talk) 03:36, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
A lot of these are in contradiction to the main articles on these bands. As such, I suspect it has been established on those pages that said bands are not emo, and I think it is misleading to have links here directing to pages that Wiki doesn't itself seem to consider emo. Also, I suspect some of these sources could be misinterpreted. ( Albert Mond ( talk) 06:02, 20 April 2009 (UTC))
NEW YORK— Most bands that fit the "emo" or "hardcore" descriptions follow the same scream-sing/ scream-sing formula, but Coheed and Cambria are bringing something different to the scene.
That something is an unusual blend of prog-rock, emo and sci-fi fantasy. Consequently, the band has often been described as an "emo Rush" due to its elaborate concept albums, 2002's The Second Stage Turbine Blade and 2003's In Keeping Secrets of Silent Earth: 3, which chronicle the continuing saga of two intergalactic characters named Coheed and Cambria. Also, singer/guitarist Claudio Sanchez's high-pitched vocals inescapably recall those of Rush singer Geddy Lee. Nevertheless, the group's potent combination of melodic sensibility and heavy-hitting rock far outweighs any comparisons with other bands.
According to this, Coheed and Cambria is also hardcore. The author doesn't once state in what way Coheed is supposed to be "emo" -probably because they can't. ( Albert Mond ( talk) 06:07, 20 April 2009 (UTC))
←I agree, I think MTV are a perfectly authoritative source for making that claim. And those additional ref's are excellent. As for the AFI bit, I might remove them if I can't find any sources more reliable than that community college paper. -- IllaZilla ( talk) 18:41, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
This page seems like a good one for ongoing semi-protection- perhaps 3 months as a trial? Does anyone support or disagree with this? My rationale is that there are a lot of driveby additions of bands without sources, removals of bands by angry fans, and these are all being done from first-time IPs. tedder ( talk) 07:22, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
There is only one source for listing the band as emo. It even describes the band in the same genre as the All-American Rejects. It seems its reliability is debatable. Anyway, I don't believe Rise Against should be listed here anymore, unless more sources are found labeling the band emo. We don't want to give undue weight to what is obviously a small minority opinion. Does anybody else have thoughts on this? Tim meh 04:11, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't the title be changed to a list of bands Considered emo, as a lot of these bands are only considered emo by a select few. Your views? 92.251.255.13 ( talk) 13:32, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
I know this is based on the views of certain journalists and that, but including BMTH as emo is utterly absurd. Honestly, they aren't even considered emo within most of popular culture, as far as I know. People are going to see this article, and they will either laugh at it, or it will cause them to actually believe that BMTH is an emo band.
What's more, Wiki's article on BMTH doesn't (last I checked) list this band as emo. I haven't checked the source yet, but I'm about to. If it's vague or a bad source, I'll delete the band from this list. If it's anything regarded as reliable, I will gladly continue this argument. ( Albert Mond ( talk) 09:36, 7 August 2009 (UTC))
Update: the addition seems to have been a joke. And actually a rather nice one, at that. Here's the source: Loftus, Johnny. "Bring me the horizon: Biography". Allmusic. [19]. Retrieved on 2009-04-20. "Ontario-based pop-punk/emo/lotsa yelling combo Bring me the horizon included..." Removed. ( Albert Mond ( talk) 09:41, 7 August 2009 (UTC))
Most of the artists listed on this page have only one source. I propose that, to make the list more neutral, we require at least two sources for each artist. This way, we can avoid giving insignificant viewpoints undue weight. The whole NPOV policy does still apply to lists. It clearly states that "the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all". If a significant minority or majority of reliable sources believe an artist is emo, we should have no problem finding at least two sources and citing them here. If we can't find more than one reliable source calling an artist emo, we must view the opinion as that of a tiny minority which has no place on Wikipedia. This proposal is just to ensure that readers are not being misled when seeing this list and that it is completely neutral, and it couldn't hurt anything. So, why not? Tim meh ( review me) 01:28, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
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