This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Shelley's TLM was one of the first and most influential texts, wasn't it? 134.106.199.13 ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
The ubiquitous 'citation needed' tags on this page are garish and unnecessary. If you disagree with a book, just delete it and perhaps leave a comment here if it's controversial. We don't need some literary journal cite to list what well-known dystopian novels are —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.244.70.214 ( talk) 23:39, August 27, 2007 (UTC)
I'm with Yobmod (and Notinasnaid, in regards to his comments elsewhere on this page) on this one. The use of the term "dystopia" is subjective. Entries should only be included in the list if a reliable, third-party source describes them as dystopic. The List of dystopian films is in need of similiar treatment. - Walkiped ( T | C) 00:20, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I've created a stem for this article and the list of dystopian films one, pointing out that there can be controversy about particular works that are not obviously and classically dystopias. I'm not wedded to the words, but I do see the need for something like what I've written ... and the talk page of the other article tends to confirm my thinking. The various articles related to dystopia are tending to push the definition beyond what many critics would be comfortable with (I think). The words I've written are offered in good faith to address the problem, but may not be perfect. Metamagician3000 13:42, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
What about Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged? Surely that depicts a dystopia society..the type where gov't controls too much and therefore causes businesses to go on strike, which obviously make society go downhill. 68.162.69.174 15:49, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
-The People's States in Atlas Shrugged emerge as attempt by the power-lusting to accumulate power and regulate human lives, in a fashion that proves ineffective, corrupt, enormously oppressive and destructive. If Anthem counts as a dystopia so should Atlas Shrugged, it's the same theme, it simply lasts a shorter time and to an extent is shown emerging.
..is the one where corporations grow so powerful that businesses like Wal-Mart and McDonalds own countries and can lob nukes at each other and eventual control space routes, etc?-G
I agree that most of the works are dystopian without question. However, I would question the inclusion of Starship Troopers on this list. While the society depicted in the novel does have some striking differences from current norms, I would hardly classify it as dystopian. There is no "Big Brother" or other classic dystopian construct. If anything, the rights of the individual are paramount, with the chief exception being service before citizenship. This places it more in a utopian than dystopian setting. I would like to remove it from the list, but want to hear arguments to the contrary first. I might be missing something... Malakhi 19:20, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, the first possibility for a Dystopia in the article is "A Utopian society that has at least one fatal flaw." Not that I've read Starship Troopers... but the World State in Brave New World could be considered Utopian by some, albeit at the cost of individual expression. I guess what you might be missing (to use your own words) is the flaw. -- 208.192.70.129 03:20, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, to be specific, it states a fatal flaw. The only real flaw in the system that presents itself in the book (as I recall it) is the possible disenfranchisement of those who choose not to pursue civil service. But, when the story touches on such people, they seem content with their decision not to participate. Their human rights are still secure; they are simply unable to vote or participate in politics. Malakhi 16:26, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
-More precisely, in the book the system is presented by Heinlein as laudatory. Various readers may have concerns, but in the eyes of the author it is not intended as a dystopian work, and can't be meaningfully classified as much. The same theme applies to some others.
Watership Down contains a society which initially appears Utopian. The rabbits are well-fed, study poetry and the arts and want for nothing. However it is a repressed society whose rabbits live under the unspoken understanding that they are being harvested by the local farmer. This meets a number of criteria for a Dystopia. -- 81.139.66.222 15:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The order seems a bit strange, have I missed something? Does anyone object if change it? 81.136.66.82 17:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I have deleted the entry "Soylent Green" by Harry Harrison, as this is the title of the film made from Harrison's book "Make Room! Make Room!", which is featured under 'M' on this page.
Many works contrast a dystopian society with another non-dystopian society -- such as, Starhawk's The Fifth Sacred Thing, or Marge Piercy's Woman on the Edge of Time. I haven't added these just yet; pondering it and considering the list. Other thoughts. -- LQ 17:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I've now managed to source 20 claims of dystopia using the Clute/Nicholls Encyclopedia of Science Fiction (which I think would be generally recognised as a scholarly resource). This leaves over 90, which I have each tagged with citation needed.
How to move forward? The aim must be 100% citations, but how to get there? I propose now to go through the same work looking for each entry in which a novel is discussed that is listed here. If the novel appears in a context where it might reasonably say it's dystopian, but it doesn't, I propose removing it. Of course, nothing precludes it coming back with a citaton to something else.
Comments? Notinasnaid 14:48, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
In the absence of any further input, I will start removing unsourced entries. My proposal is to remove those without any source, and at this stage which do not have a Wikipedia article identifying dystopian themes. If the article does not have a source, I will add a citation needed to the article. Items removed will be accumulated below for possible rescue by people with more sources than me. Notinasnaid 11:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok, who put a popular "Harry Potter" as a dystopia. I read (and seem if referring to movies) the Harry Potter book series and I don't find any reference of a dystopia. Sure the plot of the book mostly involves with a crazy cult serial killer but if you look at the soceity in Harry Potter, do you see anything problems with it?
So I removed "harry potter" out of the list until some person confirm this. Besides, most dystopias are usually alternate history/futuristic theme. -- Dark paladin x 22:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
-Raskolnikov
-Raskolnikov
-Raskolnikov —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.104.60.69 ( talk) 16:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC).
-Raskolnikov
Clearly this is a dystopian system if anything is. -Raskolnikov —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.104.60.108 ( talk) 22:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC).
-Raskolnikov
The Last Book in the Universe by Rodman Philbrick added. Very dystopian. It even says in the Rodman Philbrick page that it is dystopian, not to mention the main article for the book. Omniferous 05:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
A great many of the fact tags in the article were added in February 2007. So, what happens when we reach the one year mark next month? Do we begin deleting items from the list that have not been cited? Or, do we begin a serious effort to cite those items for which citations can be found? I guess, thinking aloud, that we do a bit of both. I propose that any item on the list which is devoid of an article about the author and/or the title, and is devoid of citation, be deleted. Anyone have any thoughts on the matter? The list is getting longer, but less than half have citations. --- RepublicanJacobite The'FortyFive' 17:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Maybe I shouldn't raise this issue, but perhaps this list should be ordered by date of publication? It would then be more valuable to see the progression of the genre (is it a genre? I forget, whatever). Alphabetical order is better than no order, but it doesn't add terribly much as one would never go "Wow, that's a good distopian work that starts with 'C', I wonder what other distopian works start with that letter?" and given the digital format, if we need to find a work in the list, we can always use the search function. I don't know of precedents elsewhere on WP, I think the guideline says it's a case by case concensous...I wouldn't worry about a change any time soon though. I don't particularly feel like taking the time to sort this thing. - Verdatum ( talk) 22:55, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Could Joseph Conrad's HoD be considered dystopian enough? It is arguably dystopian, though it does not have a futuristic/alternate-history setting. Thoughts? -- Mrrodgers0 ( talk) 02:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Could I am Legend be considered a dystopian novel? If 'dangerous and alienating future societies' are considered dystopian, the nascent vampire described at the end of the book is certainly that. I can't point to a Reliable Source to back this up, however. -- Robert Impey —Preceding undated comment was added at 16:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC).
I think the Dark Tower Series by Stephen King Should be listed in here, anybody agree?-- Vagrantdead ( talk) 20:58, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Despite the academic reference listed as the footnote, should Naked Lunch really be considered dystopia? I've read it and I don't really see the characteristics. Does anyone else have a different opinion? Ericsean ( talk) 16:45, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
You know, I didn't see this popular dystopian title on the list. Someone needs to add it. 76.31.246.14 ( talk) 19:34, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Some lists of books have been added to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion. You can find the discussions here. RockMagnetist ( talk) 22:24, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
There is some significant bias here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.243.145.138 ( talk) 07:44, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
Although there seems to be a valid citation for this entry, Franz Kafka's Metamorphosis cannot be considered dystopian fiction. The novella focuses exclusively on the events in the home of one family, and does not delve into the issues their society may or may not have. One character turning into an insect monster does not a dystopia make. I suggest that it be removed from the list. Incentative ( talk) 22:27, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
A large number of the titles in the 2000s and 2010s subsections are unreferenced, have primary sources, or sources that are too vague to verify. These need to be cleaned up or removed. --- RepublicanJacobite TheFortyFive 14:07, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
Sorokin's book apppears with an 'unreliable source' tag. Is it necessary? I have read the book; I can attest to its dystopian character. And I also notice that some books do not have refs pinned to them, for example 'Clockwork Orange' - presumably because they are well-known to be dystopian. So, I propose to remove the tag from Day of the Oprichnik. OK? Bazuz ( talk) 10:07, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
When a list is made up of links to other Wikipedia pages, those pages are the place where attribution is required. So as long as it is described as dystopian on the main page, it can be included here. This page needs over-zealous calls for attribution removing. Hyper3 ( talk) 22:21, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
I beleive that The Roar and The Whisper, by Emma Clayton, demonstrate a dystopian society, as well as being quite popular, and should be added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.164.54.81 ( talk) 02:52, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Where is "Animal Farm"?? The best dystopian novel of all time (Orwell, 1945) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.85.207.3 ( talk) 18:40, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
Hello, I'm working with OCLC, and we are algorithmically generating data about different Genres, like notable Authors, Book, Movies, Subjects, Characters and Places. We have determined that this Wikipedia page has a close affintity to our detected Genere of dystopias. It might be useful to look at [1] for more information. Thanks. Maximilianklein ( talk) 23:09, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
I haven't read Alas, Babylon, but isn't it a apocalyptic novel, i.e. about the end of the world, instead of a dystopian novel?
dystopias are highly dysfunctional societies. Apocalyptic stories are about the end of the world. post-apocalyptic are about what happens after apocalyptic events. Certainly a dystopia might bring about the end of the world, just as dystopian novel might be set after the apocalypse -- in the ashes, as it were.
but it seems like a lot of people confuse them.
and bad governments may, and likely would, arise after apocalyptic events, of course.
but not all bad governments or societies are dystopias. Zimbabwe is a (especially) badly run one-party state, but it is not a dystopia. North Korea is a (especially) badly run one-party state that is also a dystopia because of it's utopian ideology and pretenses.
the societies in Brave New World and The Machine Stops are well run, on the other hand, but their admirable goals -- a world of comfort without suffering -- are pursued and realized to a nightmarish degree.
The Denzel Washington movie The Book of Eli and novel Blood Red Road are post-apocalyptic but not dystopian because what little government there are little more than mere bands of robbers.
perhaps a dystopia requires an ideology beyond might makes right, a social order that aims, as in Brave New World, or merely pretends to aim, as in 1984, at some higher, universal good.
76.19.63.222 ( talk) 05:47, 6 January 2014 (UTC) Michael Christian
The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction states dystopian fictions are warnings against social and political trends that the author disapproves of, so a dystopia is not just a future where something bad happens, but a future where the author specifically warns that something bad will happen unless the trend in the dystopia is opposed. So War with the Newts, Brave New World and The Handmaid's Tale all have identifiable political trends ( fascism, Fordism, Christian fundamentalism) taken to an unpleasant extreme, whereas Alas Babylon seems to just be a disaster novel with no trend identified and criticised by the novel. 176.61.97.121 ( talk) 12:47, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I have read Alas Babylon and it is not a dystopian novel. Dystopian societies are societies that are currently running in which the horror is the society. Post Apocalyptic fiction is fiction where people are trying to survive a breakdown of society and build a new one. Alas Babylon fits in this second category. I think it should be removed from this list. Whitehatm ( talk) 04:00, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
Since V For Vendetta and Watchmen are graphic novels, and are already listed in the List of dystopian comics list, maybe they shouldn't be on a list of prose works? 176.61.97.121 ( talk) 23:15, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
The source for this entry is an online list, and the list itself states that Lord of the Flies is "at number twelve because of the on going argument whether this is truly a dystopian novel or not. The definition of dystopia isn't necessarily clear, though the general definition is that it is a society in which misery and negative conditions prevail (or a seeming utopia gained at horrifying costs.)" Cancilla ( talk) 23:16, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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List of dystopian literature. Please take a moment to review
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 08:35, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
Per the lead, and per similar lists, I have removed novels without WP articles, since the lead requires any novels on the list to be notable. If I have mistakenly removed novels that have WP articles, feel free to restore them. Also, if I removed any re-used references, I will ensure that they are restored soon. – Jonesey95 ( talk) 20:04, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
your suggestion is putting a horse before the cart. Exactly. That is where horses are typically found in relation to carts. See WP:LISTCRITERIA for the guideline on how list articles should be constructed. This list article uses the first criterion. If the books you would like to add to this list have received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, you should be able to create a well-sourced article for those books. At that point, the LISTCRITERIA guideline allows you to link to those books' articles from this list. The criteria for notability are not my criteria for notability; they are established by the community and defined in a guideline. Happy editing! – Jonesey95 ( talk) 09:59, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Shelley's TLM was one of the first and most influential texts, wasn't it? 134.106.199.13 ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
The ubiquitous 'citation needed' tags on this page are garish and unnecessary. If you disagree with a book, just delete it and perhaps leave a comment here if it's controversial. We don't need some literary journal cite to list what well-known dystopian novels are —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.244.70.214 ( talk) 23:39, August 27, 2007 (UTC)
I'm with Yobmod (and Notinasnaid, in regards to his comments elsewhere on this page) on this one. The use of the term "dystopia" is subjective. Entries should only be included in the list if a reliable, third-party source describes them as dystopic. The List of dystopian films is in need of similiar treatment. - Walkiped ( T | C) 00:20, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I've created a stem for this article and the list of dystopian films one, pointing out that there can be controversy about particular works that are not obviously and classically dystopias. I'm not wedded to the words, but I do see the need for something like what I've written ... and the talk page of the other article tends to confirm my thinking. The various articles related to dystopia are tending to push the definition beyond what many critics would be comfortable with (I think). The words I've written are offered in good faith to address the problem, but may not be perfect. Metamagician3000 13:42, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
What about Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged? Surely that depicts a dystopia society..the type where gov't controls too much and therefore causes businesses to go on strike, which obviously make society go downhill. 68.162.69.174 15:49, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
-The People's States in Atlas Shrugged emerge as attempt by the power-lusting to accumulate power and regulate human lives, in a fashion that proves ineffective, corrupt, enormously oppressive and destructive. If Anthem counts as a dystopia so should Atlas Shrugged, it's the same theme, it simply lasts a shorter time and to an extent is shown emerging.
..is the one where corporations grow so powerful that businesses like Wal-Mart and McDonalds own countries and can lob nukes at each other and eventual control space routes, etc?-G
I agree that most of the works are dystopian without question. However, I would question the inclusion of Starship Troopers on this list. While the society depicted in the novel does have some striking differences from current norms, I would hardly classify it as dystopian. There is no "Big Brother" or other classic dystopian construct. If anything, the rights of the individual are paramount, with the chief exception being service before citizenship. This places it more in a utopian than dystopian setting. I would like to remove it from the list, but want to hear arguments to the contrary first. I might be missing something... Malakhi 19:20, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, the first possibility for a Dystopia in the article is "A Utopian society that has at least one fatal flaw." Not that I've read Starship Troopers... but the World State in Brave New World could be considered Utopian by some, albeit at the cost of individual expression. I guess what you might be missing (to use your own words) is the flaw. -- 208.192.70.129 03:20, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, to be specific, it states a fatal flaw. The only real flaw in the system that presents itself in the book (as I recall it) is the possible disenfranchisement of those who choose not to pursue civil service. But, when the story touches on such people, they seem content with their decision not to participate. Their human rights are still secure; they are simply unable to vote or participate in politics. Malakhi 16:26, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
-More precisely, in the book the system is presented by Heinlein as laudatory. Various readers may have concerns, but in the eyes of the author it is not intended as a dystopian work, and can't be meaningfully classified as much. The same theme applies to some others.
Watership Down contains a society which initially appears Utopian. The rabbits are well-fed, study poetry and the arts and want for nothing. However it is a repressed society whose rabbits live under the unspoken understanding that they are being harvested by the local farmer. This meets a number of criteria for a Dystopia. -- 81.139.66.222 15:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The order seems a bit strange, have I missed something? Does anyone object if change it? 81.136.66.82 17:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I have deleted the entry "Soylent Green" by Harry Harrison, as this is the title of the film made from Harrison's book "Make Room! Make Room!", which is featured under 'M' on this page.
Many works contrast a dystopian society with another non-dystopian society -- such as, Starhawk's The Fifth Sacred Thing, or Marge Piercy's Woman on the Edge of Time. I haven't added these just yet; pondering it and considering the list. Other thoughts. -- LQ 17:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I've now managed to source 20 claims of dystopia using the Clute/Nicholls Encyclopedia of Science Fiction (which I think would be generally recognised as a scholarly resource). This leaves over 90, which I have each tagged with citation needed.
How to move forward? The aim must be 100% citations, but how to get there? I propose now to go through the same work looking for each entry in which a novel is discussed that is listed here. If the novel appears in a context where it might reasonably say it's dystopian, but it doesn't, I propose removing it. Of course, nothing precludes it coming back with a citaton to something else.
Comments? Notinasnaid 14:48, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
In the absence of any further input, I will start removing unsourced entries. My proposal is to remove those without any source, and at this stage which do not have a Wikipedia article identifying dystopian themes. If the article does not have a source, I will add a citation needed to the article. Items removed will be accumulated below for possible rescue by people with more sources than me. Notinasnaid 11:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok, who put a popular "Harry Potter" as a dystopia. I read (and seem if referring to movies) the Harry Potter book series and I don't find any reference of a dystopia. Sure the plot of the book mostly involves with a crazy cult serial killer but if you look at the soceity in Harry Potter, do you see anything problems with it?
So I removed "harry potter" out of the list until some person confirm this. Besides, most dystopias are usually alternate history/futuristic theme. -- Dark paladin x 22:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
-Raskolnikov
-Raskolnikov
-Raskolnikov —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.104.60.69 ( talk) 16:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC).
-Raskolnikov
Clearly this is a dystopian system if anything is. -Raskolnikov —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.104.60.108 ( talk) 22:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC).
-Raskolnikov
The Last Book in the Universe by Rodman Philbrick added. Very dystopian. It even says in the Rodman Philbrick page that it is dystopian, not to mention the main article for the book. Omniferous 05:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
A great many of the fact tags in the article were added in February 2007. So, what happens when we reach the one year mark next month? Do we begin deleting items from the list that have not been cited? Or, do we begin a serious effort to cite those items for which citations can be found? I guess, thinking aloud, that we do a bit of both. I propose that any item on the list which is devoid of an article about the author and/or the title, and is devoid of citation, be deleted. Anyone have any thoughts on the matter? The list is getting longer, but less than half have citations. --- RepublicanJacobite The'FortyFive' 17:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Maybe I shouldn't raise this issue, but perhaps this list should be ordered by date of publication? It would then be more valuable to see the progression of the genre (is it a genre? I forget, whatever). Alphabetical order is better than no order, but it doesn't add terribly much as one would never go "Wow, that's a good distopian work that starts with 'C', I wonder what other distopian works start with that letter?" and given the digital format, if we need to find a work in the list, we can always use the search function. I don't know of precedents elsewhere on WP, I think the guideline says it's a case by case concensous...I wouldn't worry about a change any time soon though. I don't particularly feel like taking the time to sort this thing. - Verdatum ( talk) 22:55, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Could Joseph Conrad's HoD be considered dystopian enough? It is arguably dystopian, though it does not have a futuristic/alternate-history setting. Thoughts? -- Mrrodgers0 ( talk) 02:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Could I am Legend be considered a dystopian novel? If 'dangerous and alienating future societies' are considered dystopian, the nascent vampire described at the end of the book is certainly that. I can't point to a Reliable Source to back this up, however. -- Robert Impey —Preceding undated comment was added at 16:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC).
I think the Dark Tower Series by Stephen King Should be listed in here, anybody agree?-- Vagrantdead ( talk) 20:58, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Despite the academic reference listed as the footnote, should Naked Lunch really be considered dystopia? I've read it and I don't really see the characteristics. Does anyone else have a different opinion? Ericsean ( talk) 16:45, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
You know, I didn't see this popular dystopian title on the list. Someone needs to add it. 76.31.246.14 ( talk) 19:34, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Some lists of books have been added to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion. You can find the discussions here. RockMagnetist ( talk) 22:24, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
There is some significant bias here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.243.145.138 ( talk) 07:44, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
Although there seems to be a valid citation for this entry, Franz Kafka's Metamorphosis cannot be considered dystopian fiction. The novella focuses exclusively on the events in the home of one family, and does not delve into the issues their society may or may not have. One character turning into an insect monster does not a dystopia make. I suggest that it be removed from the list. Incentative ( talk) 22:27, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
A large number of the titles in the 2000s and 2010s subsections are unreferenced, have primary sources, or sources that are too vague to verify. These need to be cleaned up or removed. --- RepublicanJacobite TheFortyFive 14:07, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
Sorokin's book apppears with an 'unreliable source' tag. Is it necessary? I have read the book; I can attest to its dystopian character. And I also notice that some books do not have refs pinned to them, for example 'Clockwork Orange' - presumably because they are well-known to be dystopian. So, I propose to remove the tag from Day of the Oprichnik. OK? Bazuz ( talk) 10:07, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
When a list is made up of links to other Wikipedia pages, those pages are the place where attribution is required. So as long as it is described as dystopian on the main page, it can be included here. This page needs over-zealous calls for attribution removing. Hyper3 ( talk) 22:21, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
I beleive that The Roar and The Whisper, by Emma Clayton, demonstrate a dystopian society, as well as being quite popular, and should be added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.164.54.81 ( talk) 02:52, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Where is "Animal Farm"?? The best dystopian novel of all time (Orwell, 1945) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.85.207.3 ( talk) 18:40, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
Hello, I'm working with OCLC, and we are algorithmically generating data about different Genres, like notable Authors, Book, Movies, Subjects, Characters and Places. We have determined that this Wikipedia page has a close affintity to our detected Genere of dystopias. It might be useful to look at [1] for more information. Thanks. Maximilianklein ( talk) 23:09, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
I haven't read Alas, Babylon, but isn't it a apocalyptic novel, i.e. about the end of the world, instead of a dystopian novel?
dystopias are highly dysfunctional societies. Apocalyptic stories are about the end of the world. post-apocalyptic are about what happens after apocalyptic events. Certainly a dystopia might bring about the end of the world, just as dystopian novel might be set after the apocalypse -- in the ashes, as it were.
but it seems like a lot of people confuse them.
and bad governments may, and likely would, arise after apocalyptic events, of course.
but not all bad governments or societies are dystopias. Zimbabwe is a (especially) badly run one-party state, but it is not a dystopia. North Korea is a (especially) badly run one-party state that is also a dystopia because of it's utopian ideology and pretenses.
the societies in Brave New World and The Machine Stops are well run, on the other hand, but their admirable goals -- a world of comfort without suffering -- are pursued and realized to a nightmarish degree.
The Denzel Washington movie The Book of Eli and novel Blood Red Road are post-apocalyptic but not dystopian because what little government there are little more than mere bands of robbers.
perhaps a dystopia requires an ideology beyond might makes right, a social order that aims, as in Brave New World, or merely pretends to aim, as in 1984, at some higher, universal good.
76.19.63.222 ( talk) 05:47, 6 January 2014 (UTC) Michael Christian
The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction states dystopian fictions are warnings against social and political trends that the author disapproves of, so a dystopia is not just a future where something bad happens, but a future where the author specifically warns that something bad will happen unless the trend in the dystopia is opposed. So War with the Newts, Brave New World and The Handmaid's Tale all have identifiable political trends ( fascism, Fordism, Christian fundamentalism) taken to an unpleasant extreme, whereas Alas Babylon seems to just be a disaster novel with no trend identified and criticised by the novel. 176.61.97.121 ( talk) 12:47, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I have read Alas Babylon and it is not a dystopian novel. Dystopian societies are societies that are currently running in which the horror is the society. Post Apocalyptic fiction is fiction where people are trying to survive a breakdown of society and build a new one. Alas Babylon fits in this second category. I think it should be removed from this list. Whitehatm ( talk) 04:00, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
Since V For Vendetta and Watchmen are graphic novels, and are already listed in the List of dystopian comics list, maybe they shouldn't be on a list of prose works? 176.61.97.121 ( talk) 23:15, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
The source for this entry is an online list, and the list itself states that Lord of the Flies is "at number twelve because of the on going argument whether this is truly a dystopian novel or not. The definition of dystopia isn't necessarily clear, though the general definition is that it is a society in which misery and negative conditions prevail (or a seeming utopia gained at horrifying costs.)" Cancilla ( talk) 23:16, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 08:35, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
Per the lead, and per similar lists, I have removed novels without WP articles, since the lead requires any novels on the list to be notable. If I have mistakenly removed novels that have WP articles, feel free to restore them. Also, if I removed any re-used references, I will ensure that they are restored soon. – Jonesey95 ( talk) 20:04, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
your suggestion is putting a horse before the cart. Exactly. That is where horses are typically found in relation to carts. See WP:LISTCRITERIA for the guideline on how list articles should be constructed. This list article uses the first criterion. If the books you would like to add to this list have received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, you should be able to create a well-sourced article for those books. At that point, the LISTCRITERIA guideline allows you to link to those books' articles from this list. The criteria for notability are not my criteria for notability; they are established by the community and defined in a guideline. Happy editing! – Jonesey95 ( talk) 09:59, 10 November 2018 (UTC)