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![]() | On 14 October 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Dialects of English. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
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Please see Talk:Varieties of English#Merge list to main article. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 16:53, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: Moved L293D ( ☎ • ✎) 00:19, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
List of dialects of the English language → List of dialects of English – More concise title. 192.107.120.90 ( talk) 13:35, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved ( closed by non-admin page mover) Calidum 16:56, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
List of dialects of English → List of varieties of English – Given the lack of universal definition of dialect, and the inclusion of languoids that are not really considered dialects of English, the article should be titled "List of varieties of English". Soumya-8974 talk contribs subpages 14:09, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
As an Aussie, I've never heard of it.
Some post-closure observations, in case this comes up again: Referring to English dialects as "varieties" is a weird Wikipedianism found in the MoS (due to some argument back in the early 2000s). It is not normal English usage, nor normal linguistic usage (variety is used in sometimes in sociolinguistics as a blanket term, a synonym of lect (or isolect), which all have a meaning too broad to be useful in this context (it encompasses everything from registers and styles of speaking within one dialect, all the way up to entire languages and even language continuua/groups. The non-standard, recent linguistics neologism "languoid" really isn't very different in excessive scope from that. And all this stuff is WP:JARGON that virtually none of our readers would arrive here already understanding, or ever use as a search term to find this article.
The scope matters: This article is not about accents and styles, or formality registers; and it is also not about the English–Scots continuum (which is mostly mutually intelligible, or we would not sing "Auld Lang Syne" or ever read Robert Burns); nor is it inclusive of English-based creoles and pidgins. It's about English, and dialects (somewhat but not excessively broadly construed) within it. There are a few things on the list that should be removed, though. (E.g., Bootling is not a dialect, but an artificial cant. And if Scots is in there still, then it should also be removed.)
Anyway, please remember that WP is not "SpecialistPedia". The term dialect has a generally understood dominant meaning in English, that is encompassed by this article, and it really doesn't matter that various professional linguists would use it subtly differently (the fact is that they would not all agree on what those difference are in the first place). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:18, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect
Englishes. The discussion will occur at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 December 1#Englishes until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.
Soumya-8974 (he)
talk
contribs
subpages
09:51, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 12:53, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Africa and Asia should come first. There is no reason to prioritize white majority countries just because they spoke english earlier than other countries. Jiaminglimjm ( talk) 10:38, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
Appalachia, particularly Central Appalachia, isn't mentioned. or if it is, I've missed it. Mari Adkins 20:01, 26 July 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MariAdkins ( talk • contribs)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 04:18, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
List of dialects of English → Dialects of English – This is an important encyclopedic topic, and although a lot of the page is currently structured in the form of a list, this is really a topic which deserves to be treated as a standalone article rather than just a list. And the "overview" section provides an introduction to that. And even if it is just a list, WP:NCLIST doesn't mandate the use of "List of...", it merely describes it as "A common practice". Finally, there's a strong WP:CONSISTENCY argument. I've had a look through similar pages relating to other major languages, and I so far haven't found any that title the page on dialects as "List of ...". See for example German dialects, Spanish dialects and varieties, Dialects of Polish, Varieties of French etc. Note that I boldly moved this yesterday, following a request by Treetoes023 at WP:RM/TR, [1] but the move was reverted by BilCat so here we are. I also prefer "Dialects of English" over "English dialects", so it's clear that we're referring to the language, not the country of England, a point raised by DrVogel at the RM/TR discussion. — Amakuru ( talk) 11:34, 14 October 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 18:54, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
I feel these inclusions are misleading. Glaswegian and Ulster Scots are dialects of Scots, not English, and Fingallian and Yola were their own languages when they were spoken. The articles on these also say as much.
I've noticed @ StaneDonnie: tried to remove Ulster Scots, but @ Roger 8 Roger: reverted this change.
I've noticed an attempt to remove Fingallian and Yola by @ Erinius: was also reverted.
The map in the article also seems to imply that Scots is just a variant of English, as it shows Scots on the map and the filename is Dialects_of_English_in_UK_and_Ireland.svg. Scots is officially recognised by Scotland, the UK and the EU as a separate language and it even has it's own Wikipedia. It is not a form of English. Please change this.
Thanks in advance,
- Cobra! ( talk) 20:58, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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![]() | This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions:
|
![]() | On 14 October 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Dialects of English. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
|
|
Please see Talk:Varieties of English#Merge list to main article. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 16:53, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on List of dialects of the English language. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:19, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved L293D ( ☎ • ✎) 00:19, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
List of dialects of the English language → List of dialects of English – More concise title. 192.107.120.90 ( talk) 13:35, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved ( closed by non-admin page mover) Calidum 16:56, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
List of dialects of English → List of varieties of English – Given the lack of universal definition of dialect, and the inclusion of languoids that are not really considered dialects of English, the article should be titled "List of varieties of English". Soumya-8974 talk contribs subpages 14:09, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
As an Aussie, I've never heard of it.
Some post-closure observations, in case this comes up again: Referring to English dialects as "varieties" is a weird Wikipedianism found in the MoS (due to some argument back in the early 2000s). It is not normal English usage, nor normal linguistic usage (variety is used in sometimes in sociolinguistics as a blanket term, a synonym of lect (or isolect), which all have a meaning too broad to be useful in this context (it encompasses everything from registers and styles of speaking within one dialect, all the way up to entire languages and even language continuua/groups. The non-standard, recent linguistics neologism "languoid" really isn't very different in excessive scope from that. And all this stuff is WP:JARGON that virtually none of our readers would arrive here already understanding, or ever use as a search term to find this article.
The scope matters: This article is not about accents and styles, or formality registers; and it is also not about the English–Scots continuum (which is mostly mutually intelligible, or we would not sing "Auld Lang Syne" or ever read Robert Burns); nor is it inclusive of English-based creoles and pidgins. It's about English, and dialects (somewhat but not excessively broadly construed) within it. There are a few things on the list that should be removed, though. (E.g., Bootling is not a dialect, but an artificial cant. And if Scots is in there still, then it should also be removed.)
Anyway, please remember that WP is not "SpecialistPedia". The term dialect has a generally understood dominant meaning in English, that is encompassed by this article, and it really doesn't matter that various professional linguists would use it subtly differently (the fact is that they would not all agree on what those difference are in the first place). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:18, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect
Englishes. The discussion will occur at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 December 1#Englishes until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.
Soumya-8974 (he)
talk
contribs
subpages
09:51, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 12:53, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Africa and Asia should come first. There is no reason to prioritize white majority countries just because they spoke english earlier than other countries. Jiaminglimjm ( talk) 10:38, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
Appalachia, particularly Central Appalachia, isn't mentioned. or if it is, I've missed it. Mari Adkins 20:01, 26 July 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MariAdkins ( talk • contribs)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 04:18, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
List of dialects of English → Dialects of English – This is an important encyclopedic topic, and although a lot of the page is currently structured in the form of a list, this is really a topic which deserves to be treated as a standalone article rather than just a list. And the "overview" section provides an introduction to that. And even if it is just a list, WP:NCLIST doesn't mandate the use of "List of...", it merely describes it as "A common practice". Finally, there's a strong WP:CONSISTENCY argument. I've had a look through similar pages relating to other major languages, and I so far haven't found any that title the page on dialects as "List of ...". See for example German dialects, Spanish dialects and varieties, Dialects of Polish, Varieties of French etc. Note that I boldly moved this yesterday, following a request by Treetoes023 at WP:RM/TR, [1] but the move was reverted by BilCat so here we are. I also prefer "Dialects of English" over "English dialects", so it's clear that we're referring to the language, not the country of England, a point raised by DrVogel at the RM/TR discussion. — Amakuru ( talk) 11:34, 14 October 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 18:54, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
I feel these inclusions are misleading. Glaswegian and Ulster Scots are dialects of Scots, not English, and Fingallian and Yola were their own languages when they were spoken. The articles on these also say as much.
I've noticed @ StaneDonnie: tried to remove Ulster Scots, but @ Roger 8 Roger: reverted this change.
I've noticed an attempt to remove Fingallian and Yola by @ Erinius: was also reverted.
The map in the article also seems to imply that Scots is just a variant of English, as it shows Scots on the map and the filename is Dialects_of_English_in_UK_and_Ireland.svg. Scots is officially recognised by Scotland, the UK and the EU as a separate language and it even has it's own Wikipedia. It is not a form of English. Please change this.
Thanks in advance,
- Cobra! ( talk) 20:58, 10 November 2022 (UTC)