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Should Advanced Graphics Architecture for the Amiga be listed at 24 bits (the maximum number of colour precision it uses) or at 18 bits (the maximum number of colours it can display at once)? JIP | Talk 12:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
What about the Windows 640x480 16 color palette?
I'm confused. First it says a 2-bit grayscale palette was used on the original Game Boy, then it says it used a 4-color green scale palette. Also, what about other important palettes such as the "web-safe," the 216 color Windows, and the 256 color Macintosh palettes? 69.233.59.38 05:59, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
The Apple IIe section is slightly inaccurate. Those 16 colors were only available in "lo-res" mode, which was 40x40 pixels on the screen, and thus completely incapable of rendering the sample image (which is much larger than the resolution would support.) In "hi-res" mode (280x192), there were only 8 colors, which included two blacks and two whites. The other four colors were created by alternating black and white vertical stripes. The first four colors: black1, green, magenta, and white1, could not be used next to the second four colors: black2, blue, orange, and white2, without creating interference patterns. A "super-hi-res" mode was developped later, which had the resolution of hi-res with the color-palette of lo-res, but required either a hardware expansion card or some special software package to be displayed, I forget which. (There was also a "super-lo-res", which I believe was the same palette as regular lo-res, but with 80x80 pixels.) Neither of these was used much, though, because it was soon afterwards that the newer computer systems came out with different graphics boards in them. (IIgs, I think) I think some of this info needs to be mentionned on the page somehow. (I'd put something up myself, but I don't know how to go about converting that parrot image into the proper color palette, particularly taking the interference patterns into consideration.) -- Lurlock 15:59, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm collecting, over time, detailed information on computer colour palettes and making maps of them. I hope they will be useful in serving as one-stop reference points on the palettes. When done, I upload the palette map (always a PNG - nothing else can be suitable) onto the Commons. Here they are so far:
More to be added as I find enough details. I'm currently trying to find about the Sinclair Spectrum palette. As with the C64's, various Spectrum emulators have different RGB values for its entries, so it's in need of research for accuracy (as Timmermann has done for the C64). -- Shlomi Tal ☜ 20:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
The idea of your article is good, but I think it is not well realized. Palette systems have two magnitudes, often imposed by the hardware available: the number of the RGB combinations that DAC (Digital to Analog Converter) circuitry can offer (usually, due the number of bits employed in each channel) by the graphic device and the number of different indexes (the size of the palette) that can be simultaneously displayed for each pixel on screen memory (dependent of the size of available display RAM in the device).
So, the list of palettes by hardware DAC combinations will be:
The list of palettes by size (i.e, by pixel bit depth, independent of the total color repertoire) will be:
Obviously, beyond 16 bpp, direct RGB values (true color) in every pixel is the preferred technique.
Note: the bits in every pixel can be lineally arranged (256 indexes) or be formed by superimposing monochrome independent bit planes (EGA/VGA, Amiga).
Also, we can cite some RGB level arragements commomly used with the 8 bpp palettes as "master palettes" or "universal palettes" (i.e., palettes for multipursose uses):
For every of this, gamma correction can be added to the RGB triplets in order to approximate "logical" RGB colors to "physical" ones, especially in TRC monitors.
In addition, I think that the parrot images should not be used as examples of DAC combiantion posibilities, only the templates (because paletted video hardware can not simultaneously display all the DAC combinations, for example the 262,144 of the VGA).
Also, the images in CGA high intensity modes should have the background in pure black, not dark gray, due to the background color are not affected by the intensity attribute.
Finally, the images that shows fixed palettes present in old machines (Commodore VIC, C64, ZX Spectrum) should be adapted to the color blocking (usually 8×8) in which this machines can display colors (no more than two per block).
Yours,
Ricardo Cancho Niemietz, Proffesional programmer and graphic designer of videogames in the last of the 80's-early of the 90's. (You can find my profile on Internet). 213.96.157.218 14:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello. I did many changes in this page, including:
I just became a Wikipedia member to do the changes, due to my interest and background on the matter.
But I think that some work is still pending. There are stub sections (as the nintendo PPU) and some section without a sample image (as the 9-bit RGB section).
With the time, I hope that the original author, I and others will fullfill every known case. Ricardo Cancho Niemietz 17:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
As discussed above, the parot image is used to illustrate the different pallets. On its current state, the article discusses some machine hardware specific palettes and its usage. On that context, I've simulated the parrot as viewed on the Zx Spectrum with it's hardware limitations. Also, there are now other nice simulations, that are very informative. Yet, I think that another image should be used for this, to avoid confusion and to better match the 4:3 aspect ratio of the machines. Also dithering and other techniques should be used to provide a fair comparison. If no one objects, I'll find a better example image and start a example gallery at the bottom of the article. Ricnun 13:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
What exactly is the goal with these images? On the one hand we have simulations where the parrot is shown exactly as it might be on the respective system, staying true to all the limitations (eg. number of colors per line, number of colors per 8x8 tile, screen resolution) of that system. Then we have images that are reduced to the system's available colors but could not possibly be displayed on it because other limitations are ignored (eg. the Gameboy, NES, and Atari 2600 simulations). I'm working on a program for color reduction (related to why I found myself on this page) and I can automatically convert our friend the parrot to any RGB(I) color depth or another predefined palette in seconds. But when it comes to optimizing an image for multiple palettes that can be used in different areas of the screen or color/attribute maps and the like then it becomes much more complicated. And if it is decided to focus only on simulation images that can be displayed exactly on real hardware, then one must also ask whether dirty tricks like raster color changes should also be allowed. 74.69.141.129 ( talk) 08:31, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
The NES palette is available from several sources, but I found this one most readily, thealmightyguru, palette numbers. Does this qualify for inclusion? Inmatarian 02:18, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
For example, it classifies the Amiga OCS as "12 bit RGB" with "3 bits per color" which is completely false. The Amiga (along with most machines of that era) was limited to 8 bits per pixel, and thus only 2 bits per color. It achieved its 4096 colors via a "trick" of the hardware (Hold-and-Modify bits).
Many other 1970s/80s machines used similar techniques to achieve more colors, but still limiting themselves to an 8-bit byte for each pixel. I think it would be wiser to divide the article by "# of color" not number of bits. - Theaveng ( talk) 13:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
When I search for "regular RGB palettes", the only google hits are this article; so it seems to be the product of WP:OR. The term "RGB palette" itself is common, but does not have the meaning that has been used in this article, so that's more WP:OR; these are among the reasons that I'd like to see sources for the concepts around which this material is organized, as well as sources for what the palettes are in the numerous devices and programs discussed. Dicklyon ( talk) 17:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I tried to define RGB palette to describe what the term means here, but then I hit a snag at the 4-bit RGBI. Is there a better definition? Or is the definition of this article actually suppposed to be "palettes used in hardware" or something like that? Or does my definition only apply to "full RGB palette", of which "regular RGB palette" is a subset but the non-regular ones are not? Too bad all this half-backed original research isn't even clearly defined. Dicklyon ( talk) 04:57, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Per discussion as listed, the SNES rendering of the parrot image appears to be incorrect. Please reupload and replace to a more consistent rendering. – nh. jg 23:17, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
It seems a total joke for this article to not mention dithering anywhere. With microcomputers of the 1980s, dithering was heavily used to get better image quality with a limited palette.
It is extremely unrealistic to try to claim that these paletted images are accurate representations of what images would have looked like on older computers, without including both a non-dithered and dithered example.
DMahalko ( talk) 02:28, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
Why is the Sega Mega Drive\Genesis only quoted with the 61 colors? I understand this is because it has four 16-color palettes and one entry in each palette is transparent = 60 colors + one definable background color for a total 61 colors.
That's fine by itself, but other systems do not have their max colors defined by this definition. For example Master System is quoted as having 32 colors, while in reality it has 30 colors as it has two 16-color palettes and minus the transparent color in each one it should be 30.
This is very inconsistent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bacongull ( talk • contribs) 21:08, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
Existing 16-color palette:
0 — black | 8 — gray |
1 — maroon | 9 — red |
2 — green | 10 — lime |
3 — olive | 11 — yellow |
4 — navy | 12 — blue |
5 — purple | 13 — fuchsia |
6 — teal | 14 — aqua |
7 — silver | 15 — white |
Custom 12-color palette:
0 — white | 6 — black |
1 — red | 7 — gray |
2 — yellow | 8 — orange |
3 — green | 9 — dark green |
4 — blue | 10 — dark blue |
5 — pink | 11 — purple |
Custom 16-color palette:
0 — black | 8 — white |
1 — dark red | 9 — red |
2 — dark green | 10 — green |
3 — dark yellow | 11 — yellow |
4 — dark blue | 12 — blue |
5 — purple | 13 — pink |
6 — brown | 14 — orange |
7 — gray | 15 — silver |
Grayscale 4-color palette:
0 — black | 2 — white |
1 — gray | 3 — silver |
Custom 4-color palette:
0 — dark | 2 — light |
1 — orange-red | 3 — green-blue-ish |
Existing 8-color palette:
0 — black | 4 — white |
1 — red | 5 — cyan |
2 — green | 6 — magenta |
3 — blue | 7 — yellow |
Custom 8-color palette:
0 — dark | 4 — light |
1 — red | 5 — yellow |
2 — green | 6 — pink |
3 — blue | 7 — orange |
Please make sample images for these palettes.
0 – black | 1 – deep blue | 2 – blood red | 3 – dark purple | 4 – dark green | 5 – medium blue | 6 – brown | 7 – slate blue |
8 – olive green | 9 – steel blue | 10 – scarlet | 11 – bright purple | 12 – bright green | 13 – turquoise | 14 – dark yellow | 15 – light gray |
16 – dark gray | 17 – bright blue | 18 – brick red | 19 – medium purple | 20 – medium green | 21 – sky blue | 22 – tan | 23 – lavender |
24 – spring green | 25 – periwinkle | 26 – orange | 27 – cosmos | 28 – lime green | 29 – aqua | 30 – yellow | 31 – white |
— Preceding comment signature by an anonymous user: 2403:6200:8937:FC96:B01B:820D:B44E:9952 ( talk) 05:04, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
ncc Aaryar force 116.75.211.91 ( talk) 09:29, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
ncc Aaryar force 116.75.211.91 ( talk) 09:29, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
ncc Aaryar fo 116.75.211.91 ( talk) 09:29, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Should Advanced Graphics Architecture for the Amiga be listed at 24 bits (the maximum number of colour precision it uses) or at 18 bits (the maximum number of colours it can display at once)? JIP | Talk 12:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
What about the Windows 640x480 16 color palette?
I'm confused. First it says a 2-bit grayscale palette was used on the original Game Boy, then it says it used a 4-color green scale palette. Also, what about other important palettes such as the "web-safe," the 216 color Windows, and the 256 color Macintosh palettes? 69.233.59.38 05:59, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
The Apple IIe section is slightly inaccurate. Those 16 colors were only available in "lo-res" mode, which was 40x40 pixels on the screen, and thus completely incapable of rendering the sample image (which is much larger than the resolution would support.) In "hi-res" mode (280x192), there were only 8 colors, which included two blacks and two whites. The other four colors were created by alternating black and white vertical stripes. The first four colors: black1, green, magenta, and white1, could not be used next to the second four colors: black2, blue, orange, and white2, without creating interference patterns. A "super-hi-res" mode was developped later, which had the resolution of hi-res with the color-palette of lo-res, but required either a hardware expansion card or some special software package to be displayed, I forget which. (There was also a "super-lo-res", which I believe was the same palette as regular lo-res, but with 80x80 pixels.) Neither of these was used much, though, because it was soon afterwards that the newer computer systems came out with different graphics boards in them. (IIgs, I think) I think some of this info needs to be mentionned on the page somehow. (I'd put something up myself, but I don't know how to go about converting that parrot image into the proper color palette, particularly taking the interference patterns into consideration.) -- Lurlock 15:59, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm collecting, over time, detailed information on computer colour palettes and making maps of them. I hope they will be useful in serving as one-stop reference points on the palettes. When done, I upload the palette map (always a PNG - nothing else can be suitable) onto the Commons. Here they are so far:
More to be added as I find enough details. I'm currently trying to find about the Sinclair Spectrum palette. As with the C64's, various Spectrum emulators have different RGB values for its entries, so it's in need of research for accuracy (as Timmermann has done for the C64). -- Shlomi Tal ☜ 20:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
The idea of your article is good, but I think it is not well realized. Palette systems have two magnitudes, often imposed by the hardware available: the number of the RGB combinations that DAC (Digital to Analog Converter) circuitry can offer (usually, due the number of bits employed in each channel) by the graphic device and the number of different indexes (the size of the palette) that can be simultaneously displayed for each pixel on screen memory (dependent of the size of available display RAM in the device).
So, the list of palettes by hardware DAC combinations will be:
The list of palettes by size (i.e, by pixel bit depth, independent of the total color repertoire) will be:
Obviously, beyond 16 bpp, direct RGB values (true color) in every pixel is the preferred technique.
Note: the bits in every pixel can be lineally arranged (256 indexes) or be formed by superimposing monochrome independent bit planes (EGA/VGA, Amiga).
Also, we can cite some RGB level arragements commomly used with the 8 bpp palettes as "master palettes" or "universal palettes" (i.e., palettes for multipursose uses):
For every of this, gamma correction can be added to the RGB triplets in order to approximate "logical" RGB colors to "physical" ones, especially in TRC monitors.
In addition, I think that the parrot images should not be used as examples of DAC combiantion posibilities, only the templates (because paletted video hardware can not simultaneously display all the DAC combinations, for example the 262,144 of the VGA).
Also, the images in CGA high intensity modes should have the background in pure black, not dark gray, due to the background color are not affected by the intensity attribute.
Finally, the images that shows fixed palettes present in old machines (Commodore VIC, C64, ZX Spectrum) should be adapted to the color blocking (usually 8×8) in which this machines can display colors (no more than two per block).
Yours,
Ricardo Cancho Niemietz, Proffesional programmer and graphic designer of videogames in the last of the 80's-early of the 90's. (You can find my profile on Internet). 213.96.157.218 14:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello. I did many changes in this page, including:
I just became a Wikipedia member to do the changes, due to my interest and background on the matter.
But I think that some work is still pending. There are stub sections (as the nintendo PPU) and some section without a sample image (as the 9-bit RGB section).
With the time, I hope that the original author, I and others will fullfill every known case. Ricardo Cancho Niemietz 17:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
As discussed above, the parot image is used to illustrate the different pallets. On its current state, the article discusses some machine hardware specific palettes and its usage. On that context, I've simulated the parrot as viewed on the Zx Spectrum with it's hardware limitations. Also, there are now other nice simulations, that are very informative. Yet, I think that another image should be used for this, to avoid confusion and to better match the 4:3 aspect ratio of the machines. Also dithering and other techniques should be used to provide a fair comparison. If no one objects, I'll find a better example image and start a example gallery at the bottom of the article. Ricnun 13:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
What exactly is the goal with these images? On the one hand we have simulations where the parrot is shown exactly as it might be on the respective system, staying true to all the limitations (eg. number of colors per line, number of colors per 8x8 tile, screen resolution) of that system. Then we have images that are reduced to the system's available colors but could not possibly be displayed on it because other limitations are ignored (eg. the Gameboy, NES, and Atari 2600 simulations). I'm working on a program for color reduction (related to why I found myself on this page) and I can automatically convert our friend the parrot to any RGB(I) color depth or another predefined palette in seconds. But when it comes to optimizing an image for multiple palettes that can be used in different areas of the screen or color/attribute maps and the like then it becomes much more complicated. And if it is decided to focus only on simulation images that can be displayed exactly on real hardware, then one must also ask whether dirty tricks like raster color changes should also be allowed. 74.69.141.129 ( talk) 08:31, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
The NES palette is available from several sources, but I found this one most readily, thealmightyguru, palette numbers. Does this qualify for inclusion? Inmatarian 02:18, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
For example, it classifies the Amiga OCS as "12 bit RGB" with "3 bits per color" which is completely false. The Amiga (along with most machines of that era) was limited to 8 bits per pixel, and thus only 2 bits per color. It achieved its 4096 colors via a "trick" of the hardware (Hold-and-Modify bits).
Many other 1970s/80s machines used similar techniques to achieve more colors, but still limiting themselves to an 8-bit byte for each pixel. I think it would be wiser to divide the article by "# of color" not number of bits. - Theaveng ( talk) 13:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
When I search for "regular RGB palettes", the only google hits are this article; so it seems to be the product of WP:OR. The term "RGB palette" itself is common, but does not have the meaning that has been used in this article, so that's more WP:OR; these are among the reasons that I'd like to see sources for the concepts around which this material is organized, as well as sources for what the palettes are in the numerous devices and programs discussed. Dicklyon ( talk) 17:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I tried to define RGB palette to describe what the term means here, but then I hit a snag at the 4-bit RGBI. Is there a better definition? Or is the definition of this article actually suppposed to be "palettes used in hardware" or something like that? Or does my definition only apply to "full RGB palette", of which "regular RGB palette" is a subset but the non-regular ones are not? Too bad all this half-backed original research isn't even clearly defined. Dicklyon ( talk) 04:57, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Per discussion as listed, the SNES rendering of the parrot image appears to be incorrect. Please reupload and replace to a more consistent rendering. – nh. jg 23:17, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
It seems a total joke for this article to not mention dithering anywhere. With microcomputers of the 1980s, dithering was heavily used to get better image quality with a limited palette.
It is extremely unrealistic to try to claim that these paletted images are accurate representations of what images would have looked like on older computers, without including both a non-dithered and dithered example.
DMahalko ( talk) 02:28, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
Why is the Sega Mega Drive\Genesis only quoted with the 61 colors? I understand this is because it has four 16-color palettes and one entry in each palette is transparent = 60 colors + one definable background color for a total 61 colors.
That's fine by itself, but other systems do not have their max colors defined by this definition. For example Master System is quoted as having 32 colors, while in reality it has 30 colors as it has two 16-color palettes and minus the transparent color in each one it should be 30.
This is very inconsistent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bacongull ( talk • contribs) 21:08, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
Existing 16-color palette:
0 — black | 8 — gray |
1 — maroon | 9 — red |
2 — green | 10 — lime |
3 — olive | 11 — yellow |
4 — navy | 12 — blue |
5 — purple | 13 — fuchsia |
6 — teal | 14 — aqua |
7 — silver | 15 — white |
Custom 12-color palette:
0 — white | 6 — black |
1 — red | 7 — gray |
2 — yellow | 8 — orange |
3 — green | 9 — dark green |
4 — blue | 10 — dark blue |
5 — pink | 11 — purple |
Custom 16-color palette:
0 — black | 8 — white |
1 — dark red | 9 — red |
2 — dark green | 10 — green |
3 — dark yellow | 11 — yellow |
4 — dark blue | 12 — blue |
5 — purple | 13 — pink |
6 — brown | 14 — orange |
7 — gray | 15 — silver |
Grayscale 4-color palette:
0 — black | 2 — white |
1 — gray | 3 — silver |
Custom 4-color palette:
0 — dark | 2 — light |
1 — orange-red | 3 — green-blue-ish |
Existing 8-color palette:
0 — black | 4 — white |
1 — red | 5 — cyan |
2 — green | 6 — magenta |
3 — blue | 7 — yellow |
Custom 8-color palette:
0 — dark | 4 — light |
1 — red | 5 — yellow |
2 — green | 6 — pink |
3 — blue | 7 — orange |
Please make sample images for these palettes.
0 – black | 1 – deep blue | 2 – blood red | 3 – dark purple | 4 – dark green | 5 – medium blue | 6 – brown | 7 – slate blue |
8 – olive green | 9 – steel blue | 10 – scarlet | 11 – bright purple | 12 – bright green | 13 – turquoise | 14 – dark yellow | 15 – light gray |
16 – dark gray | 17 – bright blue | 18 – brick red | 19 – medium purple | 20 – medium green | 21 – sky blue | 22 – tan | 23 – lavender |
24 – spring green | 25 – periwinkle | 26 – orange | 27 – cosmos | 28 – lime green | 29 – aqua | 30 – yellow | 31 – white |
— Preceding comment signature by an anonymous user: 2403:6200:8937:FC96:B01B:820D:B44E:9952 ( talk) 05:04, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
ncc Aaryar force 116.75.211.91 ( talk) 09:29, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
ncc Aaryar force 116.75.211.91 ( talk) 09:29, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
ncc Aaryar fo 116.75.211.91 ( talk) 09:29, 5 November 2023 (UTC)