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Charities accused of ties to terrorism → Charities referred to in connection with terrorism – Similar to List of cults being changed to List of groups referred to as cults the new title distances Wikipedia from having the appearance of being the accuser. The logic for this is similar to the reason that September_11,_2001_attacks article is not entitled September_11,_2001_terrorist_attacks and much like that article wherein it's established that the acts were terrorism, this article can establish that these charities are accused of ties to terrorism apart from the title (see how Encarta and Britannica refer to 9/11 attacks). In this way the 'at first glance' separation between Wikipedia and those doing the accusing is established even before one reads the article.
It's been a week since the proposal was made, and discussion seems to have died down. I count two supports, five opposes, and two neutrals, and one of the supports seems to have weakened his support later, above, so I think we've reached a rough consensus that the current title is good enough. Thank you all for your help. -- GRuban 14:29, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
This article title is very wrong... and seriously suffers from a lack of NPOV. 'Accused'? Who's doing the accusing? WikiPedia? I don't think so! See Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Words_which_can_advance_a_point_of_view. Netscott 14:04, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, in discussing the title change with
User:Freakofnurture in
IRC today he mentioned how the former title of
List of cults was altered to
List of groups referred to as cults and that made sense to me. So I propose a title change to:
Charities referred to in connection with terrorism
Or something in that spirit, I think such a title is about as
NPOV as one could get. Comments?
Netscott
15:31, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Although it's longer, it's definitely a more neutral title. Move per above. — Apr. 10, '06 [17:01] < freakofnurxture | talk>
The "ties" column doesn't make sense to me. Global Relief Foundation supports terrorism because their Bosnian offices were shut down on US request? Another: "Sent unauthorized funds to Saddam's Iraq"? What does that mean? Most of these aren't "ties to terrorism". Anyway, I think my main point is: The accusations should be explained, or they should be removed from the list. Mrtea (talk) 23:17, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Mrtea, you sent me a heads-up, two months ago, repeating your concern about the amount of proof against the charities. I wasn't paying enough attention, and I missed a set of changes you made, where you removed: Maktab-ul-Khedamat, Ittehad-e-Islami, Hizb-e-Islami, Afghan Support Committee, Al Kifah Refugee Center. I thought providing a link to an article or other documeent that included the accusation a charity was sufficient. I've started some articles. But I don't want to be proprietorial about them. And doing so would be a violation of the WP:OWN policy. The wikipedia is a work in progress. Red-links aren't something to be feared or avoided. They represent an opportunity for other contributors to join in. -- Geo Swan 18:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
The current article would be more accurately called "Islamic Charities who have been smeared as having terrorist links mainly by US government organizations". Which is a long title. The article certainly doesn't match it current broad title. No mention of Basque or Irish groups. Certainly no mention of Abramoff's charity and it's funding of weapons [2]. No mention of false allegations [3]. - Xed 11:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi i'll have a look for any info on charities who have been linked with terrorism in the northern ireland troubles to see if this can stop being an islam only page (NORAID anyone?). Hypnosadist 13:37, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
IMO the terrorism sidebar significantly reduces the table's readability. Does it really add anything to the article to compensate for the reduction in readability? -- Geo Swan 03:50, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
One entry in this list (Capital Athletic Foundation) is listed here due to the accusations of one guy, Juan Cole, which seems to violate wp:reliable. I have no idea if the Capital Athletic Foundation is actually connected to terrorism, however i would think it would take more than the say so of one partisan to be included in this list. Per wp:Bold i am removing this entry. Bonewah ( talk) 18:57, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
<---(outdent) Nableezy, Every one of my comments in this section contains a line such as "why is Juan Cole's say so enough to put a group in a list of terrorist organizations?" or "i would think it would take more than the say so of one partisan to be included in this list." Would you please address my actual concerns? Bonewah ( talk) 15:22, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
A user has requested mediation on this issue. Can the user who requested mediation make sure that this template is placed above the section that requires mediation, then click here to fill in the case page.
At issue here is this entry. The Capital Athletic Foundation is included based on an editorial by Juan Cole which contains the singular line
"But the investigation into his activities by the FBI also shed light on the ways in which right-wing American Jews have often been involved in funding what are essentially terrorist activities by armed land thieves in Palestinian territory."
I feel this is not enough to be considered a legitimate accusation for purposes of this article, especially considering that the other accusers are such entities as the FBI and U.S. State Department. wp:libel and wp:rs come to mind here. Bonewah ( talk) 19:19, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
[od] Juan Cole may be notable enough, but with the exception of victims of terrorism (ie Daniel Boim's parents) all of the accusers are governmental agencies, or groups charged with investigating terrorism. Juan Cole is neither. The idea of putting up accusations made by every biased notable in the world is just plain silly. Please try taking this concept to its logical conclusion.... Tundrabuggy ( talk) 04:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
So I think the discussion should be refocused away from the Cole source and towards a more general discussion. What is the threshhold for inclusion on the list? Mentioning by:
Obviously once a general conclusion is reached it could be applied to the article. It would also be kept in mine that if governmental agencies are used then accusations of terrorism by Israel, Iran, and Madagascar will all be treated the same (as would be the case for professors, newspapers, etc).-- 68.251.187.176 ( talk) 14:17, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
(od) The specifics dont need to be discussed all that thoroughly in the RFC, we can do that in a different section. The RFC should be about the general question, what does it take to be included on this list. My opinion is that a notable accusation of having ties to terrorism is enough. Be that from a governmental agency, or a expert in the field. Nableezy ( talk) 02:40, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Uusing a very marginal source to claim that a group of identifiable people ((Beiter Illit settlers) are "essentially terrorists" is a serious BLP issue. I'm surprised to see administrators who are not aware of this policy. NoCal100 ( talk) 20:58, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
By the way, this is on the BLP page as well: "Editors who repeatedly add or restore unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons may be blocked for disruption. The blocking policy has full information." Tundrabuggy ( talk) 04:17, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
[od] Is there any evidence that the settlers of Betar Illit are terrorists? The charity may have been accused of "funding money to terrorists," but it has yet to be determined that the settlers are "terrorists." Are they on anyone's terror list? Have any murders been commited? Have they got the equipment to protect their enclave? The IRMEP article claims the equipment was "so that Israeli settlers could intimidate or shoot Palestinian Arabs." Have they shot any Palestinian Arabs or are "settlers" merely "terrorists" by virtue of protecting themselves? If there is no "evidence" that they are terrorists, then the charity cannot be cited for "accusations" of sending money to terrorists, and the settlers of Betar Illit are being maligned by Juan Cole, and anyone else who publishes such material. They need to get an indictment of terrorism, not merely make having biased organisations makke claims. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 15:06, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
[od] The Newsweek article does not refer to "terrorism" -- only to "mobilizing against the Intifada." That is not good enough( WP:BLP) to claim "terrorism." Tundrabuggy ( talk) 15:51, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
The fact that you consider Washington Report on Middle East Affairs a reliable source truly demonstrates what is wrong about this dispute. "Please remember that the only thing this article is doing is reporting in a neutral which charities have been accused of ties..." What do you think we've been arguing over? Cole's inclusion violates the whole process of neutrality. It's been couched in to illegally balance the overwhelming amount of evidence against the generally Islamic-related terrorist-funneling "charities." The burden of proof absolves any righteous claim of notability in regards to Cole's frivilous accusation. I know, wikipedia isn't about truth. But it is about verifiability, an argument made by you and Nableezy if I recall. Verifiability law states: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation.nb 1." Makes sense, but it also adds: "If no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." And don't forget: "Do not leave unsourced or poorly sourced information that may damage the reputation of living persons or organizations in articles and do not move it to the talk page (See Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons for details of this policy).". *Awaits civil POV-pushing response. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 11:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC) Also, WRMEA easily qualifies under Questionable sources. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 11:42, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Anyway, it does look like we're not getting anywhere fast, which is why I'd agree to mediation. For that, looks like we would need agreement from all or most of the following (list with talk page links, alphabetical order):
Did I miss anyone or mischaracterize anyone? -- GRuban ( talk) 15:48, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
I broke this off into a separate section for easier navigation and editing. I don't see any objections so far; let me drop a note on the talk page of everyone who hasn't explicitly agreed yet. -- GRuban ( talk) 14:57, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Once I realised the page was infested with I/P mentalists I quickly washed my hands and moved away from the page. History teaches us whatever the outcome of meditation, the batshit crazies on both sides will carry on regardless. I have no interest in becoming involved in a) I/P issues or b) this issue. Please don't respond to this on my talkpage as I'm not interested and I am not watching this page so I will not make any further comment on this matter. Just letting people know so they can strike my name. thanks. -- Cameron Scott ( talk) 15:10, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Hm. Here is what Neon White has to say: [7] It's neither a formal agreement, but at least it isn't a formal disagreement. I wonder if Neon White is a lawyer in his day job? :-) I think it's the best we're going to get. Let's see if a mediator will accept it, and we can get this settled. -- GRuban ( talk) 18:32, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
--neon white talk 22:46, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
At the very least this should be a "List of..." article as it is, well, a list. See WP:LISTNAME. – ukexpat ( talk) 19:55, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
done Nableezy ( talk) 15:57, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Beyond disturbing. I highly recommend dispute resolution before this gets out of hand and people get blocked. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 21:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Just agree to mediation.-- 75.2.19.152 ( talk) 12:24, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Call a spade a spade. This whole dispute wreaks of POV-pushing. It is more than obvious the source shouldn't stay. It is not an RS, and nothing outside of it corroborates Cole's views. Even it did, it still shouldn't remain. Those who want it to stay are self-proclaimed fencers and those who don't are just the same. If you think incivility is an issue write me up. And BTW, stop the with the policy shopping.
Wikifan12345 (
talk)
00:00, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello. I am an experienced MEDCAB and 3O mediator. A request has been made for mediation and I am willing to take the case. I understand that everyone agrees to mediation (thank you GRuban for pointing this out). As I understand it the debate so far stems around the inclusion of Capital Athletic Foundation (indeed any charity) within the list and what defines a reliable source. Also included within this is some dispute over the use of the word accused.
Could the parties to the dispute outline their positions (in separate sections below) with sources cited, and further give a brief outline of what they feel is meant by Wikipedia of a "reliable source"? I know that this much, if not all, of this information can be gleaned from the prior discussions but it is often a helpful exercise to reiterate it in a single section.
Can I further ask that no one edit or comment on anyone elses comments in this exercise and that all parties remember to employ civility and the assumption of others' good faith?
Thank you fr33k man -s- 22:39, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
===Comments by {{user|username}}=== example section
I heard about this article from a discussion on Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias back in April 2006, specifically here, and then just above on this talk page, here. At the time, the objection by multiple people was that the article was biased, due to being mainly a repetition of the US government's unproven claims against Islamic charities. Xed ( talk · contribs) brought up two references of examples that weren't in the article, one of an accusation later disproven, and the second of this accusation. I said " Then fix it", and then as that didn't happen, did it myself. That didn't satisfy Xed, but I gather he was more upset by the US Government's claims being in the article, than by the lack of balance. Personally I'm a strong believer in fixing rather than deleting. In the end, no one actively complained about the entries for 3 years.
What is meant on Wikipedia by a "reliable source"? The Wikipedia:Reliable sources guideline defines them so: "Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." The "subject at hand", modern terrorism, is highly controversial and polarized, and no one source is "generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative" in determining who is or is not a terrorist. For example, the United States Government certainly isn't. Our article on Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp#Criticism says In June 2006, U.S. Senator Arlen Specter stated that the arrests of most of the roughly 500 prisoners held there were based on "the flimsiest sort of hearsay".[157] Our article Combatant_Status_Review_Tribunal#Murat_Kurnaz.2C_an_example quotes an expert on military justice saying "It suggests the procedure is a sham". And so forth and so on.
But we clearly need some article here, since these accusations that charities support terrorism are clearly highly Wikipedia:Notable - people write about them, a lot, and they have major effects on the world. So what do we do when we have to write about issues that aren't settled? We give all sides, and say who says what. This particular accusation is made by Juan Cole, who our article says is considered an expert on the Middle East, and supported by http://www.fatehfrc.gov.ps/english/viewdoc.asp?aid=1991 an article by Fatah, which is part of the government of the Palestinian territories, and http://www.irmep.org/PDF/tec.pdf the Institute for Research on Middle East Policy, more... The argument made for the inclusion of claims by agencies of the US Government, above, by User:Tundrabuggy, are "most Americans have respect for these agencies". Well, most Palestinians have respect for at least one of these agencies. Unless we want our article to take a side in an argument that is more political than factual, we need to give all notable, Wikipedia:Verifiable sides, and say who supports what. WP:NPOV is a meta:Foundation issue. -- GRuban ( talk) 15:52, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Id like to deal with reliable sources first, as I think it is the most important aspect of this dispute. The reliable sources overview opens with this line "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." I think this is the critical element of any reliable source, that one could reasonably expect that the source gets it right. That, ideally, whomever you cite has done due diligence and isnt just making stuff up. Note, this does not guarantee that the reliable source is correct, only that we, as editors have done our part. If, for example, the New York Times reports something, its reasonable to assume that they fact checked themselves, and as such, even if they turn out to be wrong, no reasonable person would say "wikipedia is ridiculous for having believed the NYT in the first place"
This cuts to the first element of my concerns here, we are citing an editorial, not a news source. That is to say that this is one man's opinion. There is no expectation that someone's opinion is rigorously fact checked. As a corollary to that, Cole himself only says "essentially terrorist" further emphasizing the opinion aspect of this source.
Adding further to the reliable sourcing problems here is the fact that one on else is making the claims that Cole is making. The other sources cited don't explicitly say "this charity is associated with terrorism"
Even further problems exist when we consider that Juan Cole is a history professor, not a terrorism expert. These are most emphatically not the same thing.
Additionally, no one else is making this claim except Juan Cole. Verifiability calls on us to have multiple sources, not a singular individual.
Some editors here have mentioned concerns about countering bias in wikipedia, i get that, and think that is a good objective. However, the way to do that is to provide facts showing why those claims are wrong or spurious, not by adding even more spurious claims on 'the other side' if you will. Just consider how objectionable it would be if i tried to include an editorial from some right-wing pundit claiming that all Palestinians are terrorists, or some such thing. I think that editors here would object that opinion is not equal to fact, and that one editorial does not make for a legitimate accusation. Sorry for the long delay on finishing my views on this matter, I hope that the time served to cool people off on this matter. Bonewah ( talk) 13:22, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
This is simple to me, a verifiable accusation (note that the of the existence accusation itself needs to be verifiable, not the contents of the accusation) that a charity is connected to terrorism fits this article. The arguments about the sourcing seem irrelevant to me as we explicitly attribute every accusation, there is no more reliable source for what Juan Cole says than Juan Cole himself. Nableezy ( talk) 16:42, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello, this is to inform all that a Mediation Cabal case has been opened regarding a recent dispute on this article. My name is Vicenarian ( talk · contribs) and I have volunteered to be your mediator. As you may know, the MEDCAB process is informal and strictly voluntary; we have neither the power to compel participation or impose any resolution. Our goal is to act as a neutral third-party in helping to reach a compromise acceptable to all. To begin the process, I would ask that all interested parties to please visit the case page and signify their acceptance of mediation, and me as mediator, by signing below my name. Thank you, Vicenarian ( T · C) 21:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
After discussion at the Mediation, we brought the disagreement about the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs article by Juan Cole used for the Capital Athletic Foundation entry, to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Juan Cole and List of charities accused of ties to terrorism. -- GRuban ( talk) 16:18, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Here is a big list whose entries might be valid for inclusion in the article: http://www.un.org/sc/committees/1267/consolidatedlist.htm#alqaedaent Cheers! Nicolas1981 ( talk) 02:19, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Re: removal of Jack Abramoff's Capital Athletic Foundation - Juan Cole - Diverted American Indian tribe money to pay for paramilitary gear for Israeli far-right " Jabotinskyites" accused of terrorizing Palestinians near their Beitar Illit West Bank settlement. REF: Juan Cole, Lobbyist Jack Abramoff’s “Charity” a Front for Terrorism, Juan Cole, Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, March 2006 with the not very serious edit summary Check out the "accusers" column and repeat the old Sesame Street refrain 'one of these things is not like other'....
I don't have time to deal with this right now, but others can feel free to if I don't get back soon enough. CarolMooreDC 18:30, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
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I think it might be helpful if i start a section here to discuss the inclusion of the NRA on this list. I reverted this change for a number of reasons. The biggest of which is that the 'accusations' against the NRA dont fit the description of this list at all. We say in the lede that "A number of charities have been accused or convicted in court of using their revenues to fund terrorism or revolutionary movements, rather than for the humanitarian purposes for which contributions were ostensibly collected" The NRA fits none of these classifications. It was not accused or convicted by any court of law enforcement body, and it is not a charity. The accusation in this case is merely politically motivated showmanship, and, as such not be included here. Bonewah ( talk) 15:02, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
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Charities accused of ties to terrorism → Charities referred to in connection with terrorism – Similar to List of cults being changed to List of groups referred to as cults the new title distances Wikipedia from having the appearance of being the accuser. The logic for this is similar to the reason that September_11,_2001_attacks article is not entitled September_11,_2001_terrorist_attacks and much like that article wherein it's established that the acts were terrorism, this article can establish that these charities are accused of ties to terrorism apart from the title (see how Encarta and Britannica refer to 9/11 attacks). In this way the 'at first glance' separation between Wikipedia and those doing the accusing is established even before one reads the article.
It's been a week since the proposal was made, and discussion seems to have died down. I count two supports, five opposes, and two neutrals, and one of the supports seems to have weakened his support later, above, so I think we've reached a rough consensus that the current title is good enough. Thank you all for your help. -- GRuban 14:29, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
This article title is very wrong... and seriously suffers from a lack of NPOV. 'Accused'? Who's doing the accusing? WikiPedia? I don't think so! See Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Words_which_can_advance_a_point_of_view. Netscott 14:04, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, in discussing the title change with
User:Freakofnurture in
IRC today he mentioned how the former title of
List of cults was altered to
List of groups referred to as cults and that made sense to me. So I propose a title change to:
Charities referred to in connection with terrorism
Or something in that spirit, I think such a title is about as
NPOV as one could get. Comments?
Netscott
15:31, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Although it's longer, it's definitely a more neutral title. Move per above. — Apr. 10, '06 [17:01] < freakofnurxture | talk>
The "ties" column doesn't make sense to me. Global Relief Foundation supports terrorism because their Bosnian offices were shut down on US request? Another: "Sent unauthorized funds to Saddam's Iraq"? What does that mean? Most of these aren't "ties to terrorism". Anyway, I think my main point is: The accusations should be explained, or they should be removed from the list. Mrtea (talk) 23:17, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Mrtea, you sent me a heads-up, two months ago, repeating your concern about the amount of proof against the charities. I wasn't paying enough attention, and I missed a set of changes you made, where you removed: Maktab-ul-Khedamat, Ittehad-e-Islami, Hizb-e-Islami, Afghan Support Committee, Al Kifah Refugee Center. I thought providing a link to an article or other documeent that included the accusation a charity was sufficient. I've started some articles. But I don't want to be proprietorial about them. And doing so would be a violation of the WP:OWN policy. The wikipedia is a work in progress. Red-links aren't something to be feared or avoided. They represent an opportunity for other contributors to join in. -- Geo Swan 18:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
The current article would be more accurately called "Islamic Charities who have been smeared as having terrorist links mainly by US government organizations". Which is a long title. The article certainly doesn't match it current broad title. No mention of Basque or Irish groups. Certainly no mention of Abramoff's charity and it's funding of weapons [2]. No mention of false allegations [3]. - Xed 11:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi i'll have a look for any info on charities who have been linked with terrorism in the northern ireland troubles to see if this can stop being an islam only page (NORAID anyone?). Hypnosadist 13:37, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
IMO the terrorism sidebar significantly reduces the table's readability. Does it really add anything to the article to compensate for the reduction in readability? -- Geo Swan 03:50, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
One entry in this list (Capital Athletic Foundation) is listed here due to the accusations of one guy, Juan Cole, which seems to violate wp:reliable. I have no idea if the Capital Athletic Foundation is actually connected to terrorism, however i would think it would take more than the say so of one partisan to be included in this list. Per wp:Bold i am removing this entry. Bonewah ( talk) 18:57, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
<---(outdent) Nableezy, Every one of my comments in this section contains a line such as "why is Juan Cole's say so enough to put a group in a list of terrorist organizations?" or "i would think it would take more than the say so of one partisan to be included in this list." Would you please address my actual concerns? Bonewah ( talk) 15:22, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
A user has requested mediation on this issue. Can the user who requested mediation make sure that this template is placed above the section that requires mediation, then click here to fill in the case page.
At issue here is this entry. The Capital Athletic Foundation is included based on an editorial by Juan Cole which contains the singular line
"But the investigation into his activities by the FBI also shed light on the ways in which right-wing American Jews have often been involved in funding what are essentially terrorist activities by armed land thieves in Palestinian territory."
I feel this is not enough to be considered a legitimate accusation for purposes of this article, especially considering that the other accusers are such entities as the FBI and U.S. State Department. wp:libel and wp:rs come to mind here. Bonewah ( talk) 19:19, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
[od] Juan Cole may be notable enough, but with the exception of victims of terrorism (ie Daniel Boim's parents) all of the accusers are governmental agencies, or groups charged with investigating terrorism. Juan Cole is neither. The idea of putting up accusations made by every biased notable in the world is just plain silly. Please try taking this concept to its logical conclusion.... Tundrabuggy ( talk) 04:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
So I think the discussion should be refocused away from the Cole source and towards a more general discussion. What is the threshhold for inclusion on the list? Mentioning by:
Obviously once a general conclusion is reached it could be applied to the article. It would also be kept in mine that if governmental agencies are used then accusations of terrorism by Israel, Iran, and Madagascar will all be treated the same (as would be the case for professors, newspapers, etc).-- 68.251.187.176 ( talk) 14:17, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
(od) The specifics dont need to be discussed all that thoroughly in the RFC, we can do that in a different section. The RFC should be about the general question, what does it take to be included on this list. My opinion is that a notable accusation of having ties to terrorism is enough. Be that from a governmental agency, or a expert in the field. Nableezy ( talk) 02:40, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Uusing a very marginal source to claim that a group of identifiable people ((Beiter Illit settlers) are "essentially terrorists" is a serious BLP issue. I'm surprised to see administrators who are not aware of this policy. NoCal100 ( talk) 20:58, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
By the way, this is on the BLP page as well: "Editors who repeatedly add or restore unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons may be blocked for disruption. The blocking policy has full information." Tundrabuggy ( talk) 04:17, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
[od] Is there any evidence that the settlers of Betar Illit are terrorists? The charity may have been accused of "funding money to terrorists," but it has yet to be determined that the settlers are "terrorists." Are they on anyone's terror list? Have any murders been commited? Have they got the equipment to protect their enclave? The IRMEP article claims the equipment was "so that Israeli settlers could intimidate or shoot Palestinian Arabs." Have they shot any Palestinian Arabs or are "settlers" merely "terrorists" by virtue of protecting themselves? If there is no "evidence" that they are terrorists, then the charity cannot be cited for "accusations" of sending money to terrorists, and the settlers of Betar Illit are being maligned by Juan Cole, and anyone else who publishes such material. They need to get an indictment of terrorism, not merely make having biased organisations makke claims. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 15:06, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
[od] The Newsweek article does not refer to "terrorism" -- only to "mobilizing against the Intifada." That is not good enough( WP:BLP) to claim "terrorism." Tundrabuggy ( talk) 15:51, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
The fact that you consider Washington Report on Middle East Affairs a reliable source truly demonstrates what is wrong about this dispute. "Please remember that the only thing this article is doing is reporting in a neutral which charities have been accused of ties..." What do you think we've been arguing over? Cole's inclusion violates the whole process of neutrality. It's been couched in to illegally balance the overwhelming amount of evidence against the generally Islamic-related terrorist-funneling "charities." The burden of proof absolves any righteous claim of notability in regards to Cole's frivilous accusation. I know, wikipedia isn't about truth. But it is about verifiability, an argument made by you and Nableezy if I recall. Verifiability law states: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation.nb 1." Makes sense, but it also adds: "If no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." And don't forget: "Do not leave unsourced or poorly sourced information that may damage the reputation of living persons or organizations in articles and do not move it to the talk page (See Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons for details of this policy).". *Awaits civil POV-pushing response. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 11:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC) Also, WRMEA easily qualifies under Questionable sources. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 11:42, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Anyway, it does look like we're not getting anywhere fast, which is why I'd agree to mediation. For that, looks like we would need agreement from all or most of the following (list with talk page links, alphabetical order):
Did I miss anyone or mischaracterize anyone? -- GRuban ( talk) 15:48, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
I broke this off into a separate section for easier navigation and editing. I don't see any objections so far; let me drop a note on the talk page of everyone who hasn't explicitly agreed yet. -- GRuban ( talk) 14:57, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Once I realised the page was infested with I/P mentalists I quickly washed my hands and moved away from the page. History teaches us whatever the outcome of meditation, the batshit crazies on both sides will carry on regardless. I have no interest in becoming involved in a) I/P issues or b) this issue. Please don't respond to this on my talkpage as I'm not interested and I am not watching this page so I will not make any further comment on this matter. Just letting people know so they can strike my name. thanks. -- Cameron Scott ( talk) 15:10, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Hm. Here is what Neon White has to say: [7] It's neither a formal agreement, but at least it isn't a formal disagreement. I wonder if Neon White is a lawyer in his day job? :-) I think it's the best we're going to get. Let's see if a mediator will accept it, and we can get this settled. -- GRuban ( talk) 18:32, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
--neon white talk 22:46, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
At the very least this should be a "List of..." article as it is, well, a list. See WP:LISTNAME. – ukexpat ( talk) 19:55, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
done Nableezy ( talk) 15:57, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Beyond disturbing. I highly recommend dispute resolution before this gets out of hand and people get blocked. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 21:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Just agree to mediation.-- 75.2.19.152 ( talk) 12:24, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Call a spade a spade. This whole dispute wreaks of POV-pushing. It is more than obvious the source shouldn't stay. It is not an RS, and nothing outside of it corroborates Cole's views. Even it did, it still shouldn't remain. Those who want it to stay are self-proclaimed fencers and those who don't are just the same. If you think incivility is an issue write me up. And BTW, stop the with the policy shopping.
Wikifan12345 (
talk)
00:00, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello. I am an experienced MEDCAB and 3O mediator. A request has been made for mediation and I am willing to take the case. I understand that everyone agrees to mediation (thank you GRuban for pointing this out). As I understand it the debate so far stems around the inclusion of Capital Athletic Foundation (indeed any charity) within the list and what defines a reliable source. Also included within this is some dispute over the use of the word accused.
Could the parties to the dispute outline their positions (in separate sections below) with sources cited, and further give a brief outline of what they feel is meant by Wikipedia of a "reliable source"? I know that this much, if not all, of this information can be gleaned from the prior discussions but it is often a helpful exercise to reiterate it in a single section.
Can I further ask that no one edit or comment on anyone elses comments in this exercise and that all parties remember to employ civility and the assumption of others' good faith?
Thank you fr33k man -s- 22:39, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
===Comments by {{user|username}}=== example section
I heard about this article from a discussion on Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias back in April 2006, specifically here, and then just above on this talk page, here. At the time, the objection by multiple people was that the article was biased, due to being mainly a repetition of the US government's unproven claims against Islamic charities. Xed ( talk · contribs) brought up two references of examples that weren't in the article, one of an accusation later disproven, and the second of this accusation. I said " Then fix it", and then as that didn't happen, did it myself. That didn't satisfy Xed, but I gather he was more upset by the US Government's claims being in the article, than by the lack of balance. Personally I'm a strong believer in fixing rather than deleting. In the end, no one actively complained about the entries for 3 years.
What is meant on Wikipedia by a "reliable source"? The Wikipedia:Reliable sources guideline defines them so: "Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." The "subject at hand", modern terrorism, is highly controversial and polarized, and no one source is "generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative" in determining who is or is not a terrorist. For example, the United States Government certainly isn't. Our article on Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp#Criticism says In June 2006, U.S. Senator Arlen Specter stated that the arrests of most of the roughly 500 prisoners held there were based on "the flimsiest sort of hearsay".[157] Our article Combatant_Status_Review_Tribunal#Murat_Kurnaz.2C_an_example quotes an expert on military justice saying "It suggests the procedure is a sham". And so forth and so on.
But we clearly need some article here, since these accusations that charities support terrorism are clearly highly Wikipedia:Notable - people write about them, a lot, and they have major effects on the world. So what do we do when we have to write about issues that aren't settled? We give all sides, and say who says what. This particular accusation is made by Juan Cole, who our article says is considered an expert on the Middle East, and supported by http://www.fatehfrc.gov.ps/english/viewdoc.asp?aid=1991 an article by Fatah, which is part of the government of the Palestinian territories, and http://www.irmep.org/PDF/tec.pdf the Institute for Research on Middle East Policy, more... The argument made for the inclusion of claims by agencies of the US Government, above, by User:Tundrabuggy, are "most Americans have respect for these agencies". Well, most Palestinians have respect for at least one of these agencies. Unless we want our article to take a side in an argument that is more political than factual, we need to give all notable, Wikipedia:Verifiable sides, and say who supports what. WP:NPOV is a meta:Foundation issue. -- GRuban ( talk) 15:52, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Id like to deal with reliable sources first, as I think it is the most important aspect of this dispute. The reliable sources overview opens with this line "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." I think this is the critical element of any reliable source, that one could reasonably expect that the source gets it right. That, ideally, whomever you cite has done due diligence and isnt just making stuff up. Note, this does not guarantee that the reliable source is correct, only that we, as editors have done our part. If, for example, the New York Times reports something, its reasonable to assume that they fact checked themselves, and as such, even if they turn out to be wrong, no reasonable person would say "wikipedia is ridiculous for having believed the NYT in the first place"
This cuts to the first element of my concerns here, we are citing an editorial, not a news source. That is to say that this is one man's opinion. There is no expectation that someone's opinion is rigorously fact checked. As a corollary to that, Cole himself only says "essentially terrorist" further emphasizing the opinion aspect of this source.
Adding further to the reliable sourcing problems here is the fact that one on else is making the claims that Cole is making. The other sources cited don't explicitly say "this charity is associated with terrorism"
Even further problems exist when we consider that Juan Cole is a history professor, not a terrorism expert. These are most emphatically not the same thing.
Additionally, no one else is making this claim except Juan Cole. Verifiability calls on us to have multiple sources, not a singular individual.
Some editors here have mentioned concerns about countering bias in wikipedia, i get that, and think that is a good objective. However, the way to do that is to provide facts showing why those claims are wrong or spurious, not by adding even more spurious claims on 'the other side' if you will. Just consider how objectionable it would be if i tried to include an editorial from some right-wing pundit claiming that all Palestinians are terrorists, or some such thing. I think that editors here would object that opinion is not equal to fact, and that one editorial does not make for a legitimate accusation. Sorry for the long delay on finishing my views on this matter, I hope that the time served to cool people off on this matter. Bonewah ( talk) 13:22, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
This is simple to me, a verifiable accusation (note that the of the existence accusation itself needs to be verifiable, not the contents of the accusation) that a charity is connected to terrorism fits this article. The arguments about the sourcing seem irrelevant to me as we explicitly attribute every accusation, there is no more reliable source for what Juan Cole says than Juan Cole himself. Nableezy ( talk) 16:42, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello, this is to inform all that a Mediation Cabal case has been opened regarding a recent dispute on this article. My name is Vicenarian ( talk · contribs) and I have volunteered to be your mediator. As you may know, the MEDCAB process is informal and strictly voluntary; we have neither the power to compel participation or impose any resolution. Our goal is to act as a neutral third-party in helping to reach a compromise acceptable to all. To begin the process, I would ask that all interested parties to please visit the case page and signify their acceptance of mediation, and me as mediator, by signing below my name. Thank you, Vicenarian ( T · C) 21:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
After discussion at the Mediation, we brought the disagreement about the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs article by Juan Cole used for the Capital Athletic Foundation entry, to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Juan Cole and List of charities accused of ties to terrorism. -- GRuban ( talk) 16:18, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Here is a big list whose entries might be valid for inclusion in the article: http://www.un.org/sc/committees/1267/consolidatedlist.htm#alqaedaent Cheers! Nicolas1981 ( talk) 02:19, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Re: removal of Jack Abramoff's Capital Athletic Foundation - Juan Cole - Diverted American Indian tribe money to pay for paramilitary gear for Israeli far-right " Jabotinskyites" accused of terrorizing Palestinians near their Beitar Illit West Bank settlement. REF: Juan Cole, Lobbyist Jack Abramoff’s “Charity” a Front for Terrorism, Juan Cole, Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, March 2006 with the not very serious edit summary Check out the "accusers" column and repeat the old Sesame Street refrain 'one of these things is not like other'....
I don't have time to deal with this right now, but others can feel free to if I don't get back soon enough. CarolMooreDC 18:30, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
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I think it might be helpful if i start a section here to discuss the inclusion of the NRA on this list. I reverted this change for a number of reasons. The biggest of which is that the 'accusations' against the NRA dont fit the description of this list at all. We say in the lede that "A number of charities have been accused or convicted in court of using their revenues to fund terrorism or revolutionary movements, rather than for the humanitarian purposes for which contributions were ostensibly collected" The NRA fits none of these classifications. It was not accused or convicted by any court of law enforcement body, and it is not a charity. The accusation in this case is merely politically motivated showmanship, and, as such not be included here. Bonewah ( talk) 15:02, 9 September 2019 (UTC)