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This page was proposed for deletion by an editor on 22 November 2017. |
The "Precautions" section has too many exclamation points. That's okay for a how-to manual, but not suitable for an encyclopedia.
After adding some caves to the List of caves for Maryland, I took a quick look at this article and see that it lists dozens and dozens of caves but with hardly anything cited. This looks like original research. Most of it hasn't been cited since 2008, and the 'citations needed tag' at the top of the article has been there since 2010. I will probably go in and prune this article of uncited entries if no one intends to cite this information. Also, based on the comments, it appears a lot of original research is taking place within this article which is prohibited on Wikipedia. It looks like if the editors of this page can't start giving citations for the "information" on this page, it will be a shell of its former self. It looks like about 98% of the content will be gone. I also checked the few references given (for some reasons listed as Notes when they shouldn't be) and two of those are dead links and need to be updated. Better get to it, there's a lot of work to do on this page. Leitmotiv ( talk) 21:00, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Okay editors, I went through and did a preliminary edit and I'm posting my results here, so you can see what it would look like beforehand. But first, I'll share with you my thoughts on the Notes section of this article. Keep in mind that "Notes" aren't actually references/citations. They're supposed to act as additional commentary that would otherwise distract from the narrative or the narrative's cadence, but is important to the article's content. It appears the notes in this article are behaving like references, but are marked up as notes erroneously. These notes should be converted.
Note #1 should be converted to a ref. The following sentence suggests that the book Caves of Maryland is the "principal source of information" about this article, and the first sentence in this article suggests the reference book is the subject of the article in no small part. Therefore, I'd treat the book Caves of Maryland as a primary source because it's the principal source; it is likely to be referenced a lot. In fact, the article goes on to say it will use the book as an "outline" further declaring its intention to copy it, or behave like the book. The book can still be referenced, but primary sources are usually only cited to prove the existence of something or to prove information about it's publication, such as publishing information (date, author, press, etc). Citing this book multiple times is not what this article wants to be doing. At the very least (and probably at the very most too), this book can be referenced after the very first sentence.
Note #2 is a dead link and the bot that takes care of dead links either hasn't gotten to it yet, or perhaps no substitute exists. Not sure how those bots work exactly. But it doesn't really matter, because the note appears to be defining what a cave is, which is not necessary for this article, nor is it the focus of this article. You could direct someone to the cave article for that. Therefore it can be entirely deleted since the adjacent content is also uncited.
Note #3 is about the Maryland Geological Survey, but appears to be noting the specificity of Hagerstown Valley having well-established waterways, which the link does not specifically say. Nor does the website say anything about caves or any specific cave as far as I can see. So the note does not support the sentence, nor does the sentence refer to the note. Therefore it is entirely deleted. No harm really done, since this article is about caves and not about underlying waterways.
Note #4 is also a dead link. If no one can find a replacement, everything it's noting is tentatively deleted. It appears the note was referencing "ridge-lines" of the Catoctin area, which arguably adds nothing to the dialogue of the article, and certainly not after the related uncited material is deleted.
Note #5 appears to be valid supporting material. Even though the direct link has zero information supporting the written content, the search engine on that site supports the claim that John Friend Cave and Crabtree Cave are protected by the Nature Conservancy. If this note were converted to a reference and the url links made more direct, those two caves would remain a part of the article.
Note #6 " A (sic) History of Western Maryland [with Illustrations]" is noted for Marker Cave. Again, another note that was probably intended as a reference. I assume it's supporting the fact that Marker Cave was the focus of an archaeological investigation that revealed the remains of Native Americans. The book itself can be found here and is searchable. A search in the document for "Marker" reveals no mention of a cave by that name and therefore the note, if it were to be converted, does not support the claim. A search for "bodies", "mummy", "mummies", and "remains" also did not come up with anything close to supporting the claim about Marker Cave. Everything in this section should be deleted.
All right, so what would the article look like after my edits? Here is the remaining content:
List of caves of Maryland
The subject of this article and a reference book of the same name, Caves of Maryland was first released by the Maryland Geological Survey (MGS) in 1950. Information about Maryland caves was first gathered into a series of reports by Martin Muma in the mid-1940s, working under the MGS. After the release of these articles in 1946, a more comprehensive study was begun by William Davies, whose years of fieldwork led to the compilation of the premiere edition of Caves of Maryland in 1950.[1] Since its publication, this reference work has remained the principal source for information about Maryland caves, and has served as an outline for the work to follow.
And that's it. Not much of a list, and hardly worth contributing to another article. And hardly worth an article about a List of Caves of Maryland. Leitmotiv ( talk) 22:15, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
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I've gone through the 1950 Caves of Maryland source by William E. Davies and cited all caves that were in that book and deleted anything else that wasn't cited. Plenty of the stuff that I did cite had information not in the book, and I wasn't entirely thorough, so I'm sure more details could be deleted as they are probably unsupported. Lots of original research in the way of "bad air", "cave is closed", "unknown", "cave rescue", "white-nose", etc. Original research is not allowed on any Wikipedia pages. Everything must be sourced or it is eligible for deletion.
Going forward, if you want to add a cave to this list, add a source with in-line citation, otherwise I will revert and if you start an edit war, I will give you a warning and take it to arbitration. This article had over a decade of time to improve and no one acted. I have sharpened the article a bit, even added a few listings not originally present, so be thankful for that. Although my recommendation would be to keep this article pared down as much as possible. This isn't an article about Maryland, or about the caves' character, this is just a list as the article declares in the lede. If you want to expand on a single cave, make a separate article and we can link it here. There aren't nearly enough cave articles out there. Leitmotiv ( talk) 03:53, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 28 November 2017. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This page was proposed for deletion by an editor on 22 November 2017. |
The "Precautions" section has too many exclamation points. That's okay for a how-to manual, but not suitable for an encyclopedia.
After adding some caves to the List of caves for Maryland, I took a quick look at this article and see that it lists dozens and dozens of caves but with hardly anything cited. This looks like original research. Most of it hasn't been cited since 2008, and the 'citations needed tag' at the top of the article has been there since 2010. I will probably go in and prune this article of uncited entries if no one intends to cite this information. Also, based on the comments, it appears a lot of original research is taking place within this article which is prohibited on Wikipedia. It looks like if the editors of this page can't start giving citations for the "information" on this page, it will be a shell of its former self. It looks like about 98% of the content will be gone. I also checked the few references given (for some reasons listed as Notes when they shouldn't be) and two of those are dead links and need to be updated. Better get to it, there's a lot of work to do on this page. Leitmotiv ( talk) 21:00, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Okay editors, I went through and did a preliminary edit and I'm posting my results here, so you can see what it would look like beforehand. But first, I'll share with you my thoughts on the Notes section of this article. Keep in mind that "Notes" aren't actually references/citations. They're supposed to act as additional commentary that would otherwise distract from the narrative or the narrative's cadence, but is important to the article's content. It appears the notes in this article are behaving like references, but are marked up as notes erroneously. These notes should be converted.
Note #1 should be converted to a ref. The following sentence suggests that the book Caves of Maryland is the "principal source of information" about this article, and the first sentence in this article suggests the reference book is the subject of the article in no small part. Therefore, I'd treat the book Caves of Maryland as a primary source because it's the principal source; it is likely to be referenced a lot. In fact, the article goes on to say it will use the book as an "outline" further declaring its intention to copy it, or behave like the book. The book can still be referenced, but primary sources are usually only cited to prove the existence of something or to prove information about it's publication, such as publishing information (date, author, press, etc). Citing this book multiple times is not what this article wants to be doing. At the very least (and probably at the very most too), this book can be referenced after the very first sentence.
Note #2 is a dead link and the bot that takes care of dead links either hasn't gotten to it yet, or perhaps no substitute exists. Not sure how those bots work exactly. But it doesn't really matter, because the note appears to be defining what a cave is, which is not necessary for this article, nor is it the focus of this article. You could direct someone to the cave article for that. Therefore it can be entirely deleted since the adjacent content is also uncited.
Note #3 is about the Maryland Geological Survey, but appears to be noting the specificity of Hagerstown Valley having well-established waterways, which the link does not specifically say. Nor does the website say anything about caves or any specific cave as far as I can see. So the note does not support the sentence, nor does the sentence refer to the note. Therefore it is entirely deleted. No harm really done, since this article is about caves and not about underlying waterways.
Note #4 is also a dead link. If no one can find a replacement, everything it's noting is tentatively deleted. It appears the note was referencing "ridge-lines" of the Catoctin area, which arguably adds nothing to the dialogue of the article, and certainly not after the related uncited material is deleted.
Note #5 appears to be valid supporting material. Even though the direct link has zero information supporting the written content, the search engine on that site supports the claim that John Friend Cave and Crabtree Cave are protected by the Nature Conservancy. If this note were converted to a reference and the url links made more direct, those two caves would remain a part of the article.
Note #6 " A (sic) History of Western Maryland [with Illustrations]" is noted for Marker Cave. Again, another note that was probably intended as a reference. I assume it's supporting the fact that Marker Cave was the focus of an archaeological investigation that revealed the remains of Native Americans. The book itself can be found here and is searchable. A search in the document for "Marker" reveals no mention of a cave by that name and therefore the note, if it were to be converted, does not support the claim. A search for "bodies", "mummy", "mummies", and "remains" also did not come up with anything close to supporting the claim about Marker Cave. Everything in this section should be deleted.
All right, so what would the article look like after my edits? Here is the remaining content:
List of caves of Maryland
The subject of this article and a reference book of the same name, Caves of Maryland was first released by the Maryland Geological Survey (MGS) in 1950. Information about Maryland caves was first gathered into a series of reports by Martin Muma in the mid-1940s, working under the MGS. After the release of these articles in 1946, a more comprehensive study was begun by William Davies, whose years of fieldwork led to the compilation of the premiere edition of Caves of Maryland in 1950.[1] Since its publication, this reference work has remained the principal source for information about Maryland caves, and has served as an outline for the work to follow.
And that's it. Not much of a list, and hardly worth contributing to another article. And hardly worth an article about a List of Caves of Maryland. Leitmotiv ( talk) 22:15, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on List of caves of Maryland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 05:45, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
I've gone through the 1950 Caves of Maryland source by William E. Davies and cited all caves that were in that book and deleted anything else that wasn't cited. Plenty of the stuff that I did cite had information not in the book, and I wasn't entirely thorough, so I'm sure more details could be deleted as they are probably unsupported. Lots of original research in the way of "bad air", "cave is closed", "unknown", "cave rescue", "white-nose", etc. Original research is not allowed on any Wikipedia pages. Everything must be sourced or it is eligible for deletion.
Going forward, if you want to add a cave to this list, add a source with in-line citation, otherwise I will revert and if you start an edit war, I will give you a warning and take it to arbitration. This article had over a decade of time to improve and no one acted. I have sharpened the article a bit, even added a few listings not originally present, so be thankful for that. Although my recommendation would be to keep this article pared down as much as possible. This isn't an article about Maryland, or about the caves' character, this is just a list as the article declares in the lede. If you want to expand on a single cave, make a separate article and we can link it here. There aren't nearly enough cave articles out there. Leitmotiv ( talk) 03:53, 28 September 2019 (UTC)