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Why is the list of Ancient Church of the East Patriarchs always getting remove? For neutrality's sake the inclusion of the names is valid, whether from their point of view or the Assyrian Church based in the US. The list of names of both patriarchial line is present in this website Worldstatesmen.org[ [1]] as well. It is part of the Church of the East history and to omit it is peculiar for this website and does great injustice. To whoever the person who removes it, dont go removing it again without consulting others! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.239.121.38 ( talk • contribs) 08:42, 8 August 2006
Some of the names and dates given for the patriarchs during the period 1318 to 1552 are distinctly dodgy. See my article Dioceses of the Church of the East, 1318–1552. What is the source for them?
Djwilms ( talk) 08:54, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
List of Patriarchs of Babylon → List of Patriarchs of the Church of the East — The current name seems to be left over from when this was a larger list, but other elements have since been merged elsewhere. El on ka 18:48, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
The current name change is a definite improvement; I think a more appropriate name would be “List of Catholicos-Patriarchs of the Church of the East” This title is the official description of post of the Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the East. See this helpful website for clarification.
If this website does not work via this link try googling Cnewa and Assyrian Church of the East. Ninevite ( talk) 02:44, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Catholicos-Patriarch is the official title of the patriarch of the ACOE, Most past historical works in the English language on the Church of the East do not use this exact title. There seems to be some variation on the use of different titles throughout the churches history. As far as finding sources for this title historically since the church’s inception, there are few. The current title is fine, a good portion of modern sources such as Christoph Baumer’s The Church of the East: An Illustrated History of Assyrian Christianity, do use the title Catholicos-Patriarch. I am not sure when the current title became the official name of post; it could be as old as the church itself or it could be relatively modern. I am aware of Bishops, deacons, and students of the Church of the East who confirm the use of this title throughout much of the church’s history and they use it to refer to all the patriarchs of the church. As I have said earlier, the addition of Catholicos is optional; the current title is an improvement over its former label. I am open to suggestions. Ninevite ( talk) 23:19, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
At present this article unreasonably privileges the patriarchs of the Assyrian Church of the East and marginalises the patriarchs of the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Ancient Church of the East. Although I myself have very firm opinions on the subject, it is not the function of an encyclopedia article to adjudicate between the claims of the three modern churches which claim descent from the old Church of the East. All patriarchs, including the seventeenth- and eighteenth-century Chaldean patriarchs of Amid (Josephs I to V), the Chaldean patriarch Joseph Audo and his nineteenth- and twentieth-century successors, and Mar Addai, patriarch of the Ancient Church of the East, should be mentioned.
By the same token, there are a few anti-patriarchs who also deserve mention. I also think we should mention a number of completely mythical patriarchs (e.g. the seventh-century patriarch 'Tomarsa II', the alleged founder of the monastery of Rabban Hormizd, invented by the monks to remove the monastery from the jurisdiction of the local bishop, who would otherwise have had the right to demand contributions from them). They neatly fitted him into the twenty-year gap between Gregory and Ishoyahb II.
Djwilms ( talk) 06:56, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
I've just added a section discussing how little we know about the patriarchal succession in the fourteenth, fifteenth and early sixteenth centuries. We also know very little about the AOCE patriarchs in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. We also know very little about the first to fourth centuries, except that most of the so-called 'patriarchs' that appear in this list were invented in the sixth century.
There seems to me to be little point in giving a numbered list of patriarchs that is demonstrably inaccurate, and I'm wondering whether it might not be better to turn this into an article, Patriarchs of the Church of the East, with proper discussion of the difficult areas. No serious scholar these days accepts two fourteenth-century Shemons, for example, so why give the non-existent Shemon the factitious authority of featuring in a list? So long as he is mentioned in the discussion ('it was traditionally believed that there were two Shemons ...'), I think that's all that is necessary.
Djwilms ( talk) 02:35, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
There's a citation for "Stewart, pg. 15" but no full citation by anyone named "Stewart". Does anyone know what book that citation is referring to, and could they either expand that citation inline or add the full book's citation at the bottom. Jztinfinity ( talk) 22:47, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
The list jumps from Eliya V to VII. I realise that this is also done in The Ecclesiastical Organisation of the Church of the East, 1318-1913 but Eliya VII is called Eliya VI in Dietmar's The Church of the East: A Concise History. What is the reason behind this?-- Rafy talk 23:39, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
According to the Synod of the Assyrian Church, Giwargis III is the 121st Patriarch in succession. See the official declaration that I produce in Arabic from http://ar.news.assyrianchurch.org/archives/27563 : "وسيحمل البطريرك الجديد اسم مار كيوركيس صليوا الثالث، البطريرك المئة والحادي والعشرين لكرسي ساليق قطيسفون، " This not not concur with our listing which presents him in our List of Patriarchs of the Church of the East as the 107th. We are clearly missing something. Our numbering was arbitrary at best. werldwayd ( talk) 13:08, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: undiscussed move partially reverted. ( non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 ( talk · contribs) 19:38, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
List of catholicos-patriarchs of the East → List of Patriarchs of the East – The page was moved without consensus and to a name contrary to what the source says. Veverve ( talk) 08:40, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
Disagree. There are ample references. In fact, the more notable and correct terminology is the current one
Please check discussion at Talk:Catholicos-Patriarch of the East Jude Didimus ( talk) 09:28, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
@ Mugsalot: check discussion at the Talk:Catholicos-Patriarch of the East. We have similar fashion with Catholicos-Patriarch of All Georgia Jude Didimus ( talk) 23:52, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
It was proposed in this section that
List of patriarchs of the East be
renamed and moved to
List of patriarchs of the Church of the East.
result: Move logs:
current title ·
target title
This is template {{
subst:Requested move/end}} |
List of patriarchs of the East → List of patriarchs of the Church of the East – The article title was recently moved without discussion. Mugsalot ( talk) 11:02, 20 March 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 02:33, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
Disagree There are a lot of citations for official title Catholicos-Patriarch of the East. If this article is moved, similar move required for Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate Jude Didimus ( talk) 11:14, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
Similarly Church of the East is also denomination. Also Syriac Orthodox Patriarch has been also referred as Bishop of Antioch, Metropolitan of Antioch etc. Jude Didimus ( talk) 13:01, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: procedural close Both participants have already participated in duplicate discussion above ( non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 ( talk · contribs) 19:52, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
List of patriarchs of the East → List of catholicos-patriarchs of the East – The article title must be consistent with the official and most notable usage. Jude Didimus ( talk) 11:27, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Why is the list of Ancient Church of the East Patriarchs always getting remove? For neutrality's sake the inclusion of the names is valid, whether from their point of view or the Assyrian Church based in the US. The list of names of both patriarchial line is present in this website Worldstatesmen.org[ [1]] as well. It is part of the Church of the East history and to omit it is peculiar for this website and does great injustice. To whoever the person who removes it, dont go removing it again without consulting others! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.239.121.38 ( talk • contribs) 08:42, 8 August 2006
Some of the names and dates given for the patriarchs during the period 1318 to 1552 are distinctly dodgy. See my article Dioceses of the Church of the East, 1318–1552. What is the source for them?
Djwilms ( talk) 08:54, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
List of Patriarchs of Babylon → List of Patriarchs of the Church of the East — The current name seems to be left over from when this was a larger list, but other elements have since been merged elsewhere. El on ka 18:48, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
The current name change is a definite improvement; I think a more appropriate name would be “List of Catholicos-Patriarchs of the Church of the East” This title is the official description of post of the Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the East. See this helpful website for clarification.
If this website does not work via this link try googling Cnewa and Assyrian Church of the East. Ninevite ( talk) 02:44, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Catholicos-Patriarch is the official title of the patriarch of the ACOE, Most past historical works in the English language on the Church of the East do not use this exact title. There seems to be some variation on the use of different titles throughout the churches history. As far as finding sources for this title historically since the church’s inception, there are few. The current title is fine, a good portion of modern sources such as Christoph Baumer’s The Church of the East: An Illustrated History of Assyrian Christianity, do use the title Catholicos-Patriarch. I am not sure when the current title became the official name of post; it could be as old as the church itself or it could be relatively modern. I am aware of Bishops, deacons, and students of the Church of the East who confirm the use of this title throughout much of the church’s history and they use it to refer to all the patriarchs of the church. As I have said earlier, the addition of Catholicos is optional; the current title is an improvement over its former label. I am open to suggestions. Ninevite ( talk) 23:19, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
At present this article unreasonably privileges the patriarchs of the Assyrian Church of the East and marginalises the patriarchs of the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Ancient Church of the East. Although I myself have very firm opinions on the subject, it is not the function of an encyclopedia article to adjudicate between the claims of the three modern churches which claim descent from the old Church of the East. All patriarchs, including the seventeenth- and eighteenth-century Chaldean patriarchs of Amid (Josephs I to V), the Chaldean patriarch Joseph Audo and his nineteenth- and twentieth-century successors, and Mar Addai, patriarch of the Ancient Church of the East, should be mentioned.
By the same token, there are a few anti-patriarchs who also deserve mention. I also think we should mention a number of completely mythical patriarchs (e.g. the seventh-century patriarch 'Tomarsa II', the alleged founder of the monastery of Rabban Hormizd, invented by the monks to remove the monastery from the jurisdiction of the local bishop, who would otherwise have had the right to demand contributions from them). They neatly fitted him into the twenty-year gap between Gregory and Ishoyahb II.
Djwilms ( talk) 06:56, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
I've just added a section discussing how little we know about the patriarchal succession in the fourteenth, fifteenth and early sixteenth centuries. We also know very little about the AOCE patriarchs in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. We also know very little about the first to fourth centuries, except that most of the so-called 'patriarchs' that appear in this list were invented in the sixth century.
There seems to me to be little point in giving a numbered list of patriarchs that is demonstrably inaccurate, and I'm wondering whether it might not be better to turn this into an article, Patriarchs of the Church of the East, with proper discussion of the difficult areas. No serious scholar these days accepts two fourteenth-century Shemons, for example, so why give the non-existent Shemon the factitious authority of featuring in a list? So long as he is mentioned in the discussion ('it was traditionally believed that there were two Shemons ...'), I think that's all that is necessary.
Djwilms ( talk) 02:35, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
There's a citation for "Stewart, pg. 15" but no full citation by anyone named "Stewart". Does anyone know what book that citation is referring to, and could they either expand that citation inline or add the full book's citation at the bottom. Jztinfinity ( talk) 22:47, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
The list jumps from Eliya V to VII. I realise that this is also done in The Ecclesiastical Organisation of the Church of the East, 1318-1913 but Eliya VII is called Eliya VI in Dietmar's The Church of the East: A Concise History. What is the reason behind this?-- Rafy talk 23:39, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
According to the Synod of the Assyrian Church, Giwargis III is the 121st Patriarch in succession. See the official declaration that I produce in Arabic from http://ar.news.assyrianchurch.org/archives/27563 : "وسيحمل البطريرك الجديد اسم مار كيوركيس صليوا الثالث، البطريرك المئة والحادي والعشرين لكرسي ساليق قطيسفون، " This not not concur with our listing which presents him in our List of Patriarchs of the Church of the East as the 107th. We are clearly missing something. Our numbering was arbitrary at best. werldwayd ( talk) 13:08, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on List of Patriarchs of the Church of the East. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:33, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: undiscussed move partially reverted. ( non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 ( talk · contribs) 19:38, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
List of catholicos-patriarchs of the East → List of Patriarchs of the East – The page was moved without consensus and to a name contrary to what the source says. Veverve ( talk) 08:40, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
Disagree. There are ample references. In fact, the more notable and correct terminology is the current one
Please check discussion at Talk:Catholicos-Patriarch of the East Jude Didimus ( talk) 09:28, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
@ Mugsalot: check discussion at the Talk:Catholicos-Patriarch of the East. We have similar fashion with Catholicos-Patriarch of All Georgia Jude Didimus ( talk) 23:52, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
It was proposed in this section that
List of patriarchs of the East be
renamed and moved to
List of patriarchs of the Church of the East.
result: Move logs:
current title ·
target title
This is template {{
subst:Requested move/end}} |
List of patriarchs of the East → List of patriarchs of the Church of the East – The article title was recently moved without discussion. Mugsalot ( talk) 11:02, 20 March 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 02:33, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
Disagree There are a lot of citations for official title Catholicos-Patriarch of the East. If this article is moved, similar move required for Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate Jude Didimus ( talk) 11:14, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
Similarly Church of the East is also denomination. Also Syriac Orthodox Patriarch has been also referred as Bishop of Antioch, Metropolitan of Antioch etc. Jude Didimus ( talk) 13:01, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: procedural close Both participants have already participated in duplicate discussion above ( non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 ( talk · contribs) 19:52, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
List of patriarchs of the East → List of catholicos-patriarchs of the East – The article title must be consistent with the official and most notable usage. Jude Didimus ( talk) 11:27, 20 March 2022 (UTC)