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Is Castle Fraser not in the Highlands ? they were a Highland clan.
(moved from Castles in Scotland by bjh21 19:27, 5 April 2006 (UTC))
This page is currently being managed by Wikiproject Scottish Castles. If you would like to make any changes to this page, or any of the castle pages listed (other than those in the 'See also' section, it would be appreciated if you let us know first. Many thanks, Slink pink
I added a key, template {{ ScotPlacesKey}}. Its a bit generic - do we need any other symbols on this page? eg Privately owned, ruined? ::Supergolden:: 13:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
The icons for the different statuses of the castles is a good idea, but I think we don't have a sufficient fair-use claim for the icons. Firstly we're not using them solely on the pages for which they're subject (so one can use the NTS logo on the NTS page, but not really on the pages of all their properties. A similar discussion regarding the team logos of US football teams on summary pages (like a year's results page) concluded that this was too far from fair use and too close to decoration. Secondly they don't list the source (which is mandatory for fair-use). And thirdly we can't say, at least for most, that we can't come up with a free equivalent. We do use the little NTS logo, but it's so small that it's really pretty useless. I took a brief stab this morning with making up free logos that should serve the same purpose. My first cut is here: . I've not done the historic building one (it's a bit harder, but not too bad), and I'm by no means settled on any of these designs. But I propose we develop free SVG equivalents of the icons we use now and replace the fair-use ones with these. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 12:59, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Why is there no key that explains why some castles are listed in red? It would be helpful if the significance of those listed in red were given somewhere. Dotrocka1 ( talk) 17:41, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
To address worries of fair use icons, and to include additional info as suggested by Rincewind42, we could turn the whole page into tables. This would make it all al lot clearer, but at the expense of more complx markup. As an example:
Name | Type | Condition | Ownership |
Foo Castle | Tower house | Ruined | Historic Scotland |
Boo Castle | Country house | Occupied | Private |
Goo castle | Motte-and-bailey | Destroyed | n/a |
I would say that Type, Condition and Ownership were the three main things to include, any others? I don't think we should put too much information on this page, as its only a list after all. Abbeys and priories in Scotland also uses tables. Obviously the presentation of the table is open to suggestion too. ::Supergolden:: 09:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, like it! I agree that the West Lothian section has the best set up. Keep location separate from name. I don't think the notes section need be extensive - there is too much info in the Edinburgh Castle note, for example - but there are places where it would be useful - alternative names for instance, where these are commonly known. Like Celtus, I'm slightly reluctant to split the main list. I doubt that there are in fact 3000 castles, I don't know where this came from. Coventry's latest edition lists 2500 or so, but includes lots of ecclesiastical buildings. There certainly aren't 3000 notable castles anyway. How would the split work - something like this?
SE: Lothian, Borders SW:Lanarks, D&G, Ayrshire, Renfrew & Dumbarton, etc Central: Fife, P&K, Stirling, Falkirk NE:Aberdeenshire, Moray, Angus NW:Highland, Islands, Argyll
Anyway, if its a choice between one big crappy list and several quality lists, then, well, the latter. Well done Gwinva for kicking this off! Jonathan Oldenbuck ( talk) 08:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
A Aberdeen Castle — Aberdour Castle — Affleck Castle — Airlie Castle — Airth Castle — Alloa Tower — Amisfield Tower — Ardencaple Castle — Auldhame Castle — and — so — forth — through — the — list — with — new — box — for — every — letter — or — letter — range — eg. A-G — H-L — etc
<de-indent>Just wondering but is there any reason why Template:Coor title dms isn't being used for the location? Clicking it gives you lots of choices of viewing the castle's location. Disagree with Jon on the dates though. Most castles will have undergone changes during their history but if the initial founding date—it will usually be a circa—is known, or even when the major phases of re-construction took place then those are important pieces of information and should be stated. I'm not sure about the images down the side. I know they are larger and can be seen without recourse to clicking on them but thumbnailing them into an Image column on the rhs allows far more images to be displayed and could even incentivate some of us to get out there to fill in the blanks. -- Bill Reid | Talk 16:36, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I came to this list because I am looking for a castle whose name begins with K, and that I might recognise when I see it. I tried the categories first, but they were sorted by locality. Wouldn't it make sense for this list to be sorted alphabetically across the whole of Scotland, to give people a choice? Jamie Mercer 20:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Image:HS-icon.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 23:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Image:NTS-icon.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 16:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
The list page states that: "Scotland contains many buildings which were built to look like castles, but are not usually considered to be castles. These are examples of tower houses or Scottish Baronial revival style. They should only appear in this list if the building was given the title of "castle" (e.g. Balmoral Castle)."
I'm slightly confused about the status of tower houses in the list. While the list does contain tower some houses (which seems sensible to me) the above implies that they shouldn't be included. Further, inclusion based on nomenclature doesn't seem at all objective, as very small towers are sometimes called castles (e.g Edingham Castle - Dumfries & Galloway) while larger 'castles' are sometimes referred to as towers (e.g. Drumcoltran Tower (previously Castle) - Dumfries and Galloway).
Could someone please clarify. Cheers.
C1614 (
talk) 19:40, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
As the project seems to have regained a little momentum, I am wondering what is the best method to progress it. We have many articles at different stages, from red link through to complete featured ones - where should the effort(s) be concentrated? Initially I'd like to complete tabulation of the main list page and create at least a stub article for each castle (should take no more than a few minutes for the very basic information). Where should we go from there? Slink pink ( talk) 11:56, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
In a similar vein - what is the preferred method of stating location - is it (a) Grid ref only, or (b) Place + Grid ref ? We have a mix of both on the page and it would be nice to choose one method for consistency. Slink pink ( talk) 12:21, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Anyone know what's happened to the Aberdeenshire section to make the images appear above the table? More importantly - how do we fix this??? Slink pink ( talk) 11:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
I think we should try to avoid masses of red links on this page. The Progress page of Wikipedia:WikiProject Scottish Castles has a big list of red links, as a reference for future article creation. But I think red links should be kept to a minimum here. Many of these castles have no articles, and possibly never will do, because they are simply not notable enough (particularly those listed as "no remains"). And to try to turn this page into a comprehensive list of every castle in Scotland is just not going to provide a useful result that I can see. Anyway, Moray and Dumfries & Galloway are getting too many redlinks IMO, should they be removed? And on what criteria? Jonathan Oldenbuck ( talk) 10:13, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
"The first castles were built in Scotland in the 11th and 12th centuries, with the introduction of Norman influence." What's a Broch if not a castle? Brendandh ( talk) 18:40, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
I came accross this engraving on Commons:but cannot trace the castle, perhaps Scottish? Or perhaps this is an alternative name for Innerwick Castle? Pahazzard ( talk) 21:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
So far, I've noticed a couple of different formats of location: Six/eight/ten-figure grid reference, e.g. NT168850 Coordinates, e.g. 056.34ºN 003.12ºW My order of preference is based on increasing accuracy:
Does anyone else have a preference? Also, some include a locality - should this be part of the standard format ? Slink pink ( talk) 08:55, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
This list is far too long (over 120KB), especially seeing that its almost entirely tables, with the only text being the few paras in the lead. "Well over two thousand castles" is too many to have in a single list, particularly as there aren't concrete criteria for inclusion (what makes a castle a castle?). Therefore, I suggest its split out to lists for each council area.
This article can then be more developed. For example, the Edinburgh section could start "{{
main|List of castles in Edinburgh}}
(pic of Edinburgh Castle) There are 8 castles in Edinburgh, which date from the 12th to the 17th centuries. The best known of these is Edinburgh Castle, which dominates the skyline of the city from its position on the Castle Rock...."
Once the area listings are split out, alternate listing (by date/type/current status etc) could also be provided.-- Nilf anion ( talk) 21:23, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Ok I've done the split, giving the support here and lack of any opposition. As for further improvements:
Those additional lists should make this article more viable again instead of just pointing through to the areas.-- Nilf anion ( talk) 12:02, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
I tend to agree but am always torn between the two systems: coords are more 'wiki-friendly', mainly since you can use {{ GeoGroup}}; but grid ref is more user-friently, certainly for UK readers. Will try using small text... Thanks for the encouragement! Jonathan Oldenbuck ( talk) 10:05, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
From my perspective, the current image seems okay as a lead image - it fills the space nicely, illustrates many of the points in the article well. I'd be inclined to argue that we keep it, unless a particularly better one can be found. Hchc2009 ( talk) 16:49, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
List of castles in Scotland article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
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Is Castle Fraser not in the Highlands ? they were a Highland clan.
(moved from Castles in Scotland by bjh21 19:27, 5 April 2006 (UTC))
This page is currently being managed by Wikiproject Scottish Castles. If you would like to make any changes to this page, or any of the castle pages listed (other than those in the 'See also' section, it would be appreciated if you let us know first. Many thanks, Slink pink
I added a key, template {{ ScotPlacesKey}}. Its a bit generic - do we need any other symbols on this page? eg Privately owned, ruined? ::Supergolden:: 13:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
The icons for the different statuses of the castles is a good idea, but I think we don't have a sufficient fair-use claim for the icons. Firstly we're not using them solely on the pages for which they're subject (so one can use the NTS logo on the NTS page, but not really on the pages of all their properties. A similar discussion regarding the team logos of US football teams on summary pages (like a year's results page) concluded that this was too far from fair use and too close to decoration. Secondly they don't list the source (which is mandatory for fair-use). And thirdly we can't say, at least for most, that we can't come up with a free equivalent. We do use the little NTS logo, but it's so small that it's really pretty useless. I took a brief stab this morning with making up free logos that should serve the same purpose. My first cut is here: . I've not done the historic building one (it's a bit harder, but not too bad), and I'm by no means settled on any of these designs. But I propose we develop free SVG equivalents of the icons we use now and replace the fair-use ones with these. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 12:59, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Why is there no key that explains why some castles are listed in red? It would be helpful if the significance of those listed in red were given somewhere. Dotrocka1 ( talk) 17:41, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
To address worries of fair use icons, and to include additional info as suggested by Rincewind42, we could turn the whole page into tables. This would make it all al lot clearer, but at the expense of more complx markup. As an example:
Name | Type | Condition | Ownership |
Foo Castle | Tower house | Ruined | Historic Scotland |
Boo Castle | Country house | Occupied | Private |
Goo castle | Motte-and-bailey | Destroyed | n/a |
I would say that Type, Condition and Ownership were the three main things to include, any others? I don't think we should put too much information on this page, as its only a list after all. Abbeys and priories in Scotland also uses tables. Obviously the presentation of the table is open to suggestion too. ::Supergolden:: 09:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, like it! I agree that the West Lothian section has the best set up. Keep location separate from name. I don't think the notes section need be extensive - there is too much info in the Edinburgh Castle note, for example - but there are places where it would be useful - alternative names for instance, where these are commonly known. Like Celtus, I'm slightly reluctant to split the main list. I doubt that there are in fact 3000 castles, I don't know where this came from. Coventry's latest edition lists 2500 or so, but includes lots of ecclesiastical buildings. There certainly aren't 3000 notable castles anyway. How would the split work - something like this?
SE: Lothian, Borders SW:Lanarks, D&G, Ayrshire, Renfrew & Dumbarton, etc Central: Fife, P&K, Stirling, Falkirk NE:Aberdeenshire, Moray, Angus NW:Highland, Islands, Argyll
Anyway, if its a choice between one big crappy list and several quality lists, then, well, the latter. Well done Gwinva for kicking this off! Jonathan Oldenbuck ( talk) 08:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
A Aberdeen Castle — Aberdour Castle — Affleck Castle — Airlie Castle — Airth Castle — Alloa Tower — Amisfield Tower — Ardencaple Castle — Auldhame Castle — and — so — forth — through — the — list — with — new — box — for — every — letter — or — letter — range — eg. A-G — H-L — etc
<de-indent>Just wondering but is there any reason why Template:Coor title dms isn't being used for the location? Clicking it gives you lots of choices of viewing the castle's location. Disagree with Jon on the dates though. Most castles will have undergone changes during their history but if the initial founding date—it will usually be a circa—is known, or even when the major phases of re-construction took place then those are important pieces of information and should be stated. I'm not sure about the images down the side. I know they are larger and can be seen without recourse to clicking on them but thumbnailing them into an Image column on the rhs allows far more images to be displayed and could even incentivate some of us to get out there to fill in the blanks. -- Bill Reid | Talk 16:36, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I came to this list because I am looking for a castle whose name begins with K, and that I might recognise when I see it. I tried the categories first, but they were sorted by locality. Wouldn't it make sense for this list to be sorted alphabetically across the whole of Scotland, to give people a choice? Jamie Mercer 20:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Image:HS-icon.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 23:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Image:NTS-icon.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 16:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
The list page states that: "Scotland contains many buildings which were built to look like castles, but are not usually considered to be castles. These are examples of tower houses or Scottish Baronial revival style. They should only appear in this list if the building was given the title of "castle" (e.g. Balmoral Castle)."
I'm slightly confused about the status of tower houses in the list. While the list does contain tower some houses (which seems sensible to me) the above implies that they shouldn't be included. Further, inclusion based on nomenclature doesn't seem at all objective, as very small towers are sometimes called castles (e.g Edingham Castle - Dumfries & Galloway) while larger 'castles' are sometimes referred to as towers (e.g. Drumcoltran Tower (previously Castle) - Dumfries and Galloway).
Could someone please clarify. Cheers.
C1614 (
talk) 19:40, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
As the project seems to have regained a little momentum, I am wondering what is the best method to progress it. We have many articles at different stages, from red link through to complete featured ones - where should the effort(s) be concentrated? Initially I'd like to complete tabulation of the main list page and create at least a stub article for each castle (should take no more than a few minutes for the very basic information). Where should we go from there? Slink pink ( talk) 11:56, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
In a similar vein - what is the preferred method of stating location - is it (a) Grid ref only, or (b) Place + Grid ref ? We have a mix of both on the page and it would be nice to choose one method for consistency. Slink pink ( talk) 12:21, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Anyone know what's happened to the Aberdeenshire section to make the images appear above the table? More importantly - how do we fix this??? Slink pink ( talk) 11:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
I think we should try to avoid masses of red links on this page. The Progress page of Wikipedia:WikiProject Scottish Castles has a big list of red links, as a reference for future article creation. But I think red links should be kept to a minimum here. Many of these castles have no articles, and possibly never will do, because they are simply not notable enough (particularly those listed as "no remains"). And to try to turn this page into a comprehensive list of every castle in Scotland is just not going to provide a useful result that I can see. Anyway, Moray and Dumfries & Galloway are getting too many redlinks IMO, should they be removed? And on what criteria? Jonathan Oldenbuck ( talk) 10:13, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
"The first castles were built in Scotland in the 11th and 12th centuries, with the introduction of Norman influence." What's a Broch if not a castle? Brendandh ( talk) 18:40, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
I came accross this engraving on Commons:but cannot trace the castle, perhaps Scottish? Or perhaps this is an alternative name for Innerwick Castle? Pahazzard ( talk) 21:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
So far, I've noticed a couple of different formats of location: Six/eight/ten-figure grid reference, e.g. NT168850 Coordinates, e.g. 056.34ºN 003.12ºW My order of preference is based on increasing accuracy:
Does anyone else have a preference? Also, some include a locality - should this be part of the standard format ? Slink pink ( talk) 08:55, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
This list is far too long (over 120KB), especially seeing that its almost entirely tables, with the only text being the few paras in the lead. "Well over two thousand castles" is too many to have in a single list, particularly as there aren't concrete criteria for inclusion (what makes a castle a castle?). Therefore, I suggest its split out to lists for each council area.
This article can then be more developed. For example, the Edinburgh section could start "{{
main|List of castles in Edinburgh}}
(pic of Edinburgh Castle) There are 8 castles in Edinburgh, which date from the 12th to the 17th centuries. The best known of these is Edinburgh Castle, which dominates the skyline of the city from its position on the Castle Rock...."
Once the area listings are split out, alternate listing (by date/type/current status etc) could also be provided.-- Nilf anion ( talk) 21:23, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Ok I've done the split, giving the support here and lack of any opposition. As for further improvements:
Those additional lists should make this article more viable again instead of just pointing through to the areas.-- Nilf anion ( talk) 12:02, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
I tend to agree but am always torn between the two systems: coords are more 'wiki-friendly', mainly since you can use {{ GeoGroup}}; but grid ref is more user-friently, certainly for UK readers. Will try using small text... Thanks for the encouragement! Jonathan Oldenbuck ( talk) 10:05, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
From my perspective, the current image seems okay as a lead image - it fills the space nicely, illustrates many of the points in the article well. I'd be inclined to argue that we keep it, unless a particularly better one can be found. Hchc2009 ( talk) 16:49, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
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