![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The deletion sign put on the top of the article says: "It is proposed that this article be deleted, because of the following concern: Useless, ridiculous, no possibility for useful commentary"
The "useful commentary" is obviously in the Bowtie page which is the first thing linked to on the top line. Any commentary here would be duplicative, obviously, and any commentary belongs on the bowtie page. Pages for Monacle and Top hat have lists on the page itself. This list is much longer than the ones on the pages, because bow ties are more widespread. I think there's a good case to be made for either merging or keeping this list separate.
As to "useless" -- whenever a piece of male (and perhaps female?) clothing is considered by a person, the cultural symbolism is considered, and a good part of that is "what comes to mind when people see this". One of the things that obviously comes to mind are famous figures seen wearing the same thing. Think cigarette holder. Franklin D. Roosevelt comes to mind, and perhaps The Penguin from Batman. Same with bow ties, monacles, top hats, canes.
As to "ridiculous" well, if the article is useful and useful commentary is already linked from another article, then we can afford to have ridiculous elements here, although I think it's more accurate to say "humorous." Heaven save Wikipedia from having something humorous in it. Noroton 23:41, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Additional comment:Perhaps this list should be merged with the bow tie page. I'm going to make that suggestion on this page and that one with a merge proposal. I'm neutral on merging, although I think the list looks better and is easier for readers to look over than the single paragraph list on the Bow tie page. Noroton 00:22, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
See discussion on Merge suggestion: List of bow tie wearers page about merging the lists. Noroton 01:11, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I removed these characters because I found contrary evidence that they don't always wear bow ties by looking at the images in their Wikipedia articles:
If anyone can provide evidence that they wear bow ties in circumstances where neckties are worn or no ties are worn, then we should put them back, but we should be able to document it with a footnote, particularly since the Wikipedia articles show evidence to the contrary. If Jimmy Olsen, for instance, always wore a bow tie in the old Superman TV show, then he's worthy of inclusion, but can we document that other than with a single photo from the show? A publicity still would be good enough, I'd say, but better would be a citation from a book or article showing he always had one on. If that's the case and we put him back, we should mention that he had one on in the TV show (or wherever else) and note that he did NOT wear one in some of the comic books. Same pinciples should apply to the rest of these characters. Noroton 21:17, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Norbert Schedler -- his place on the list seems not to serve any useful purpose, so I'm putting him here for now. It's hard to find a reference to him wearing bow ties that doesn't seem ultimately to have come from anywhere but this list. If anyone wants to make a case for him, let's discuss it here.
Jeffrey Tucker, ditto. Noroton 17:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Here are two others -- if a case can be made, and if proof of bow-tie wearing can be found:
Also, long-time science fiction fan and convention organizer Ben Yalow is well known (among some groups) for his bow tie and sweater wardrobe; however, he does not currently have a Wikipedia page. Wyvern ( talk) 06:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Peter Lorre, he may have worn a bow tie in some of his better-known films, but I can't find something to footnote even for that. Unless we can find something to footnote, he should stay off the list. Is there some reason to think he was well known for wearing bow ties? Noroton 18:23, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Just a quick look at the Sigmund Freud article on Wikipedia shows numerous pictures of Siggie with long neckties, maybe one with a bow tie. If it can be shown he's associated with bow ties, we can put him back, but looks unlikely. Noroton 16:42, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Based on discussion at AfD, I suggest that this article be renamed and reworked slightly under the title of " stereotypes of bow tie wearers" See talk:bow tie from more discussion. Comments? MPS 20:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking about ongoing Afd regarding the list of bow tie wearers article... they are thinking of renaming it. Based on this AFD and a review of the original article here, I had the idea that perhaps that the bow tie article could have a separate section about stereotypes of bow tie weareres. This could be easily assembled from current bow tie content on James Bond and architects. The list of bow tie wearers article could then be renamed and reworked as a [Stereotypes of bow tie wearers] article to convey (with an exhaustive list of cited examples) evidence that pundits have used to bolster theories of stereotypes of bow tie weareres. I will be bold and aggregate the content on the bow tie article as y'all discuss. MPS 20:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I looked over your comment again and noticed I haven't responded to your suggestion about putting "History" in the title. I think a lot of time-related organization, nevermind a timeline, is too difficult to work out and then too difficult for future editors to add to, although I put up some broad time-related section titles. I'm even a bit uncomfortable with those, because Edison, for example, was as much a 20th century as he was a 19th centurey person. I think if there were some good source to cite who gave a history of bow tie wearing with regard to specific "eras" of bow tie history, then we could do it. I don't think we have enough information on history overall to focus the article title on it, and I don't know that we ever will. Will the article go out of date? I don't think so, because it's still useful to know that certain figures of the past wore them, and new, younger people continue to take up the practice. I think that's the relevant criteria. By removing time considerations for figuring out how famous a person is, I think we avoid most questions of becoming dated. Notice that game-show guy on the list? I can't even remember his name. I think anyone who seriously researches bow tie wearing is going to want to look into the past, however, and he was a prominent person in the 50s, so I'm very comfortable with keeping him, even though I'd never heard of him before and don't expect to ever again.
WP:RECENT is an interesting article, by the way, but in my opinion, recentism isn't a bug, it's a feature (well, in good part it is). I think articles that focus on recent events should probably be tagged for eventual editing or even automatically put into an AfD process after a few years, and if there isn't enough support for them, dump them or drastically edit them down. I think the standards for Wikipedia need to become even more independent of the traditional idea of an encyclopedia because Wikipedia is almost a different species from encyclopedias. It is really great that Wikipedia can get information up quickly, something no print encyclopedia can do (even encyclopedias on the Web couldn't do it faster without a wiki feature). Wikipedia SHOULD have some bias in favor of the recent because that's one of its strengths. Either that or Wikipedia could calve off these articles into WikiNews or some kind of "WikiCurrent" setup, much like WikiQuote. Noroton 21:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I can't believe Dave Garroway was missed. He was the first host of the Today Show. Apparently, he took to wearing bow ties after he had a TV guest showing him some sort of food blender--and he caught his (straight) necktie in it. 140.147.160.78 15:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza
The photo of him on the air (radio, that is) at the Meuseum of Broadcasting show him in a bow tie (as does one of the two caricatures on the Fred Allen page.
http://www.museum.tv/rhofsection.php?page=159 —Preceding unsigned comment added by OtterSmith ( talk • contribs) 18:30, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Just a comment that some balancing and possibly disparaging information against the wearing of bow ties should at least be alluded to in the lede. Benjiboi 22:38, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Both of the photos of him at Dave Garroway show him wearing one. htom ( talk) 15:07, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Les Nessman The small, balding, bespectacled man always wears a bow tie and always has a bandage somewhere on his person, a running gag that began with his first appearance (when he actually needed it). htom ( talk) 15:10, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Whipple, the character who was famous for telling others not to squeeze the Charmin, usually (always?) wears a bow tie. Youtube has lots of clips. htom ( talk) 15:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I myself added at least one of these, but since Feb. 2007 there have been no citations added. These simply do not belong on the list at this point. If anybody can find citations, please add them back:
i have changed 'affecting' to 'effect on'. the former could easily be interpreted to mean wearing as an affectation - a seriously negative connotation. Toyokuni3 ( talk) 21:00, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
OK, I looked, Charlie's not a regular bow tie wearer (someone asked.) He does wear one in the commercial "Charlie's Girlfriend" ( http://www.starkist.com/template.asp?section=charlie/index.html ; direct link not possible) but usually, at least to my memory, he does not. (I remember more in an ascot than a bow tie.)
The (nameless?) Vlasic Stork ( http://www.vlasic.com/ ), I think, always has had the red bow tie and the pince-nez.
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The deletion sign put on the top of the article says: "It is proposed that this article be deleted, because of the following concern: Useless, ridiculous, no possibility for useful commentary"
The "useful commentary" is obviously in the Bowtie page which is the first thing linked to on the top line. Any commentary here would be duplicative, obviously, and any commentary belongs on the bowtie page. Pages for Monacle and Top hat have lists on the page itself. This list is much longer than the ones on the pages, because bow ties are more widespread. I think there's a good case to be made for either merging or keeping this list separate.
As to "useless" -- whenever a piece of male (and perhaps female?) clothing is considered by a person, the cultural symbolism is considered, and a good part of that is "what comes to mind when people see this". One of the things that obviously comes to mind are famous figures seen wearing the same thing. Think cigarette holder. Franklin D. Roosevelt comes to mind, and perhaps The Penguin from Batman. Same with bow ties, monacles, top hats, canes.
As to "ridiculous" well, if the article is useful and useful commentary is already linked from another article, then we can afford to have ridiculous elements here, although I think it's more accurate to say "humorous." Heaven save Wikipedia from having something humorous in it. Noroton 23:41, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Additional comment:Perhaps this list should be merged with the bow tie page. I'm going to make that suggestion on this page and that one with a merge proposal. I'm neutral on merging, although I think the list looks better and is easier for readers to look over than the single paragraph list on the Bow tie page. Noroton 00:22, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
See discussion on Merge suggestion: List of bow tie wearers page about merging the lists. Noroton 01:11, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I removed these characters because I found contrary evidence that they don't always wear bow ties by looking at the images in their Wikipedia articles:
If anyone can provide evidence that they wear bow ties in circumstances where neckties are worn or no ties are worn, then we should put them back, but we should be able to document it with a footnote, particularly since the Wikipedia articles show evidence to the contrary. If Jimmy Olsen, for instance, always wore a bow tie in the old Superman TV show, then he's worthy of inclusion, but can we document that other than with a single photo from the show? A publicity still would be good enough, I'd say, but better would be a citation from a book or article showing he always had one on. If that's the case and we put him back, we should mention that he had one on in the TV show (or wherever else) and note that he did NOT wear one in some of the comic books. Same pinciples should apply to the rest of these characters. Noroton 21:17, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Norbert Schedler -- his place on the list seems not to serve any useful purpose, so I'm putting him here for now. It's hard to find a reference to him wearing bow ties that doesn't seem ultimately to have come from anywhere but this list. If anyone wants to make a case for him, let's discuss it here.
Jeffrey Tucker, ditto. Noroton 17:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Here are two others -- if a case can be made, and if proof of bow-tie wearing can be found:
Also, long-time science fiction fan and convention organizer Ben Yalow is well known (among some groups) for his bow tie and sweater wardrobe; however, he does not currently have a Wikipedia page. Wyvern ( talk) 06:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Peter Lorre, he may have worn a bow tie in some of his better-known films, but I can't find something to footnote even for that. Unless we can find something to footnote, he should stay off the list. Is there some reason to think he was well known for wearing bow ties? Noroton 18:23, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Just a quick look at the Sigmund Freud article on Wikipedia shows numerous pictures of Siggie with long neckties, maybe one with a bow tie. If it can be shown he's associated with bow ties, we can put him back, but looks unlikely. Noroton 16:42, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Based on discussion at AfD, I suggest that this article be renamed and reworked slightly under the title of " stereotypes of bow tie wearers" See talk:bow tie from more discussion. Comments? MPS 20:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking about ongoing Afd regarding the list of bow tie wearers article... they are thinking of renaming it. Based on this AFD and a review of the original article here, I had the idea that perhaps that the bow tie article could have a separate section about stereotypes of bow tie weareres. This could be easily assembled from current bow tie content on James Bond and architects. The list of bow tie wearers article could then be renamed and reworked as a [Stereotypes of bow tie wearers] article to convey (with an exhaustive list of cited examples) evidence that pundits have used to bolster theories of stereotypes of bow tie weareres. I will be bold and aggregate the content on the bow tie article as y'all discuss. MPS 20:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I looked over your comment again and noticed I haven't responded to your suggestion about putting "History" in the title. I think a lot of time-related organization, nevermind a timeline, is too difficult to work out and then too difficult for future editors to add to, although I put up some broad time-related section titles. I'm even a bit uncomfortable with those, because Edison, for example, was as much a 20th century as he was a 19th centurey person. I think if there were some good source to cite who gave a history of bow tie wearing with regard to specific "eras" of bow tie history, then we could do it. I don't think we have enough information on history overall to focus the article title on it, and I don't know that we ever will. Will the article go out of date? I don't think so, because it's still useful to know that certain figures of the past wore them, and new, younger people continue to take up the practice. I think that's the relevant criteria. By removing time considerations for figuring out how famous a person is, I think we avoid most questions of becoming dated. Notice that game-show guy on the list? I can't even remember his name. I think anyone who seriously researches bow tie wearing is going to want to look into the past, however, and he was a prominent person in the 50s, so I'm very comfortable with keeping him, even though I'd never heard of him before and don't expect to ever again.
WP:RECENT is an interesting article, by the way, but in my opinion, recentism isn't a bug, it's a feature (well, in good part it is). I think articles that focus on recent events should probably be tagged for eventual editing or even automatically put into an AfD process after a few years, and if there isn't enough support for them, dump them or drastically edit them down. I think the standards for Wikipedia need to become even more independent of the traditional idea of an encyclopedia because Wikipedia is almost a different species from encyclopedias. It is really great that Wikipedia can get information up quickly, something no print encyclopedia can do (even encyclopedias on the Web couldn't do it faster without a wiki feature). Wikipedia SHOULD have some bias in favor of the recent because that's one of its strengths. Either that or Wikipedia could calve off these articles into WikiNews or some kind of "WikiCurrent" setup, much like WikiQuote. Noroton 21:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I can't believe Dave Garroway was missed. He was the first host of the Today Show. Apparently, he took to wearing bow ties after he had a TV guest showing him some sort of food blender--and he caught his (straight) necktie in it. 140.147.160.78 15:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza
The photo of him on the air (radio, that is) at the Meuseum of Broadcasting show him in a bow tie (as does one of the two caricatures on the Fred Allen page.
http://www.museum.tv/rhofsection.php?page=159 —Preceding unsigned comment added by OtterSmith ( talk • contribs) 18:30, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Just a comment that some balancing and possibly disparaging information against the wearing of bow ties should at least be alluded to in the lede. Benjiboi 22:38, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Both of the photos of him at Dave Garroway show him wearing one. htom ( talk) 15:07, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Les Nessman The small, balding, bespectacled man always wears a bow tie and always has a bandage somewhere on his person, a running gag that began with his first appearance (when he actually needed it). htom ( talk) 15:10, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Whipple, the character who was famous for telling others not to squeeze the Charmin, usually (always?) wears a bow tie. Youtube has lots of clips. htom ( talk) 15:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I myself added at least one of these, but since Feb. 2007 there have been no citations added. These simply do not belong on the list at this point. If anybody can find citations, please add them back:
i have changed 'affecting' to 'effect on'. the former could easily be interpreted to mean wearing as an affectation - a seriously negative connotation. Toyokuni3 ( talk) 21:00, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
OK, I looked, Charlie's not a regular bow tie wearer (someone asked.) He does wear one in the commercial "Charlie's Girlfriend" ( http://www.starkist.com/template.asp?section=charlie/index.html ; direct link not possible) but usually, at least to my memory, he does not. (I remember more in an ascot than a bow tie.)
The (nameless?) Vlasic Stork ( http://www.vlasic.com/ ), I think, always has had the red bow tie and the pince-nez.
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |