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I have reservations about adding the Toronado as most powerful FWD vehicle. First, the quoted 385hp figure is gross, while the car it bumped had net value. Second, I remember from the hp discussion in the Horsepower discussion page, that gross power was cut by 20-25% when converted to net. Finally, Histomobile mentions 213hp, which I believe to be understated (my maths gave me 289-308hp). -- Pc13 12:26, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Honorable mention: 10.73 sec - 2004 Caterham 500 - (Note: the Caterham's status as a "production car" is disputed)
Why is their status in anyway disputed? They bought the rights to the Lotus 7 along with the tooling when Lotus stopped production and have been producing the car and developing it ever since. The 7 was a production car when Lotus made it and still is today. -- LiamE 10:49, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
As already stated numerous times. If it has to pass an Single Vehicle Approval (emphasis added) it clearly isn't a production car. // Liftarn
"Sports car (2 seat) - 11.5 sec - McLaren F1 LM (Note: this is the best 0-100-0 time for an undisputed production car) "
Other than being pedantic and pointing out its a 3 seater and while its certainly was a production car I'm sorry to point out its not elidgible for this list. Only 5 LM models were ever made.
Can anyone confirm that the S7 has a "production" of 20 cars per year and has met any nation's safety standards (independent of testing a Mustang, since that's considered a different car by both Saleen and Ford and the structural materials and other structural changes are significant)?
Its featured in Forbes as having a top speed of 273 mph.
There appears to be various other superlatives on its site.
Has anyone heard of SSC ?
The Dauer 962 is not illegible for inclusion in the automotive superlatives. #1 - Less than 20 road-going Dauers exist, the total number is 13. #2 - No Dauer was produced from scratch. All existing Dauers were modified from pre-existing Porsche 962 race cars. Pc13 12:04, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Is it worthwhile to have a "largest W16" entry on the list? It is, after all, the ONLY production W16. We could just as easily have entries for largest W12, W8, VR6, and VR5. On the other hand, the Veyron's W16 IS larger than the largest V16, and I think the VW W engines are closer to V's than anything else. TomTheHand 15:27, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
I just want to point out that while I agree the Lexus LS460 will be the first proper 8-speed gearbox, the JDM Nissan Skyline GT350 uses (since 2003) a CVT gearbox with eight pre-programmed gears for manual shift. In my opinion it shouldn't count because it's a CVT. I'm calling this to attention now should someone want to bring up in the future. Pc13 12:29, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I was surprised and skeptical about 93JC's addition of the Austin Kimberley and Tasman as the first vehicles with a transverse-mounted inline-6. I went looking for a source and found one straight from the horse's mouth, an advertisement from Austin talking about the power plant: [3]. Just in case anyone else is interested. TomTheHand 21:45, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
The first six-speed manual transmission is listed as 1986 Porsche 959, but what about cars with overdrive? If a car had four gears and overdrive on the two highest gears like the Triumph Spitfire (certainly not the first). 4 + 2 = 6. I have also read something about a russian car, possibly the Moskvitch 410/411 having six gears in the 1960s, but since they were SUVs (and may be a contestant for the title "First crossover SUV") it probably just was the standard three speed gearbox equipped with high and low gears. 3 * 2 = 6. // Liftarn
Or what about the David? The article says it used a "belt and pulley transmission giving 16 speeds", but another source [4] says it's just 3+reverse. The picture of the dashboard seems to confirm this. // Liftarn
Or was is used instead of a throttle? Anyway, I'm afraid even pre-war cars do count. // Liftarn
We lack som record beating dimensions. Lowest, highest, widest and narrowest. The lowest is said to be a custom Mini at 24 inches (61 cm) [5], but it's not a production car. Jaguar Mark X was the widest. The BMW X5 is also said to be very wide, but we need numbers. The 1973 Cadillac Eldorado and Lotus Esprit also have been suggested. 1966 Jaguar Mark 10 4.2 was 6'4" wide (in metric?). Micro Car ME-2 at at 88 centimeters, (34.64 inches) perhaps. Except that it's not in production yet, but it would beat the 99 cm (39") Peel P50. The Sparrow P.T.M. is the narrowest currently in production. [6] // Liftarn
I was bold and added the Concept Centaur GT as lowest. [7] The Probe 15 from Adams Probe Motor Co. is lower at 29", but only two was made. [8] They are kit cars so I don't really think they qualify as production cars, but just to get things started. // Liftarn
Ok, I'll remove the Vector W8 since it's not lowest in any way. We still have no entry for narrowest track. It's probably the Peel P50, but we need numbers. // Liftarn
The first SUV is now listed as the 1935 Chevrolet Suburban, but back then it wasn't a SUV, but a station wagon. The first would probably be the 1942 Dodge Carryall (if it was sold to the public and not just the army). [9] As for crossover SUV my bet is on the 1957 Moskvitch 410 rather than the 1980 AMC Eagle. // Liftarn
If it needs to be a station wagon, then the first XUV would be the Moskvitch 411 rather than the Moskvitch 410. The year would be the same. I have read http://www.classictruckshop.com/clubs/earlyburbs/history.htm and I found nothing about off-road capacity on the 1935 Chevrolet Suburban. According to http://www.carpartswholesale.com/cpw/chevrolet~suburban~parts.html it wasn't until the 1990s the Suburban became a SUV. // Liftarn
Worst sales needs some work. I removed the Mazda B-Series since it easily outsells LOTS of other cars in the US market, and is really popular worldwide. I like the average sales per year bit used for the Blackwood.
Maybe add a current lowest seller rank for the US market? My reading of the data for 2004 and 2005 suggests that, excluding cancelled, new, exotic, limited vehicles, the Hummer H1 at 374 in 2005 is worst. The Infiniti Q45 is compelling at 1,129 for 2005, as is the VW Phaeton at 820. -- SFoskett 21:20, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
this article specifically states that Lancia had a power-folding hardtop in the 1930s. Automotive News is a respectable source, so I changed the list entry. Now, which Lancia would this be? -- SFoskett 14:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
The article lists 1994 as being the year that regenerative braking was introduced on the Toyota Prius, but the car itself didn't go on sale in Japan until 1997. This page indicates a concept car that would lead to the Prius was designed in 1994, but it looks like it wouldn't be unveiled for another year. What is the criteria for listing the year of this accomplishment? I would think 1997, the year this technology was actually offered to consumers, is the appropriate year to list.
The consensus on Ford Mustang in Talk:Sports car looks to me like it is not a sports car, at least in the versions that have sold well.
I suggest that this superlative be dropped from the list, because the terms "best selling" and "sports car" are in conflict. Hundreds of cars might have this title, depending on whose definition of "sports car" is used. David R. Ingham 00:45, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I went ahead and unilaterally deleted the entry. My neighbor just bought one, and she does not argue that it is a sports car. Even if some people do think styling makes a sports car, it does not make sense to list a superlative that is so vague.
To argue the specific case of the Mustang: Road and Track said that the editor of Motor trend had a (original) Mustang re-styled on the same theme in Italy. Their comment was that "One less visually oriented might have sent it to England to have its suspension re-designed."
The trouble with this superlative is that any car listed under that heading would bring up similar arguments. The only objective measure I can think of would be hight, but that does not always work either. (Thunderbird and Spatz are exceptions.) David R. Ingham 04:07, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I noticed this list jointly credits the Bugatti EB110 3.5 L V12, Mitsubishi Minica Dangan ZZ 0.7 L I4 and Toyota 4A-GE I4. Two probs with that:
So, I'm going to edit the page to give MMC sole credit, unless someone can cite a source to trump that. -- DeLarge 22:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
We have five honorable mentions for four wheel steering and I can't think of any reason why anything but the Daimler-Benz offroad trucks deserve it. We don't use honorable mentions to point out second place, but rather to point out cars that would have won if circumstances had been slightly different... like if a certain car is considered street legal, or if a certain car had 20 units produced. If there are no objections, I'm going to make serious cuts on the "First four wheel steering" list. TomTheHand 13:17, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Nothing seems to have been done in the last two weeks, so I was bold and tidied this myself. I also moved 4ws from "suspension" to "other", and moved "active diffs" from "other" to "suspension" while I was at it. DeLarge 10:52, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Anyone have any ideas? I was cleaning up some POV fluff in the Mitsubishi Sirius engine article where as user claimed that the 4G63 2.0 L "surely must be one of the longest production engines ever" because it's been in production from "1987 to 2006". OK, that's nonsense (aside from everything else, production of the 4G63 started in 1980), but it got me wondering at what is (or was) the engine with the longest lifespan?
Of course, we'd also need to lay down parameters for what qualifies as a single engine - same problems as when comparing the Toyota Corolla nameplate with the VW Beetle, I guess. Bore/stroke and engine code remaining the same - is that enough? Or should the criteria be more/less strict?
I really have no idea what the answer is, so I'm hoping someone's going to read this and get me an answer - Google's been no help so far... DeLarge 10:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Best I can suggest is the 1947 BMC B-Series engine, specifically the 1500 used in the Indian Hindustan Ambassador. As far as I can tell, they didn't do anything to it from its introduction in 1958 until 1993 when an Isuzu 1.8L version came out. And from the Hindustan Motors website, a bi-fuel version may still be available (same bore/stroke/capacity, at least). The 1500 engine itself debuted in an MGA in 1953, so that'd be 59 years for the B-series as a whole, 53 years for the 1500, and 40 years if we're really strict and all mods/redesigns are disallowed. Looks like it's this or the Beetle's air-cooled engine to me so far... -- DeLarge 17:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I tend toward feeling that engine family would be the way to go, and the Beetle engine, with its various bore/stroke combinations, should be considered one engine. TomTheHand 18:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like we're suggesting two awards:
I'd still like to include the Model T engine since it was specifically kept nearly identical all those years... But of course it wasn't shipped in a vehicle for the last dozen years or so... Thoughts? -- SFoskett 19:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Jaguar DOHC straight six? 1949 to 1992 - 43 years...
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 8 |
![]() Archives |
---|
I have reservations about adding the Toronado as most powerful FWD vehicle. First, the quoted 385hp figure is gross, while the car it bumped had net value. Second, I remember from the hp discussion in the Horsepower discussion page, that gross power was cut by 20-25% when converted to net. Finally, Histomobile mentions 213hp, which I believe to be understated (my maths gave me 289-308hp). -- Pc13 12:26, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Honorable mention: 10.73 sec - 2004 Caterham 500 - (Note: the Caterham's status as a "production car" is disputed)
Why is their status in anyway disputed? They bought the rights to the Lotus 7 along with the tooling when Lotus stopped production and have been producing the car and developing it ever since. The 7 was a production car when Lotus made it and still is today. -- LiamE 10:49, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
As already stated numerous times. If it has to pass an Single Vehicle Approval (emphasis added) it clearly isn't a production car. // Liftarn
"Sports car (2 seat) - 11.5 sec - McLaren F1 LM (Note: this is the best 0-100-0 time for an undisputed production car) "
Other than being pedantic and pointing out its a 3 seater and while its certainly was a production car I'm sorry to point out its not elidgible for this list. Only 5 LM models were ever made.
Can anyone confirm that the S7 has a "production" of 20 cars per year and has met any nation's safety standards (independent of testing a Mustang, since that's considered a different car by both Saleen and Ford and the structural materials and other structural changes are significant)?
Its featured in Forbes as having a top speed of 273 mph.
There appears to be various other superlatives on its site.
Has anyone heard of SSC ?
The Dauer 962 is not illegible for inclusion in the automotive superlatives. #1 - Less than 20 road-going Dauers exist, the total number is 13. #2 - No Dauer was produced from scratch. All existing Dauers were modified from pre-existing Porsche 962 race cars. Pc13 12:04, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Is it worthwhile to have a "largest W16" entry on the list? It is, after all, the ONLY production W16. We could just as easily have entries for largest W12, W8, VR6, and VR5. On the other hand, the Veyron's W16 IS larger than the largest V16, and I think the VW W engines are closer to V's than anything else. TomTheHand 15:27, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
I just want to point out that while I agree the Lexus LS460 will be the first proper 8-speed gearbox, the JDM Nissan Skyline GT350 uses (since 2003) a CVT gearbox with eight pre-programmed gears for manual shift. In my opinion it shouldn't count because it's a CVT. I'm calling this to attention now should someone want to bring up in the future. Pc13 12:29, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I was surprised and skeptical about 93JC's addition of the Austin Kimberley and Tasman as the first vehicles with a transverse-mounted inline-6. I went looking for a source and found one straight from the horse's mouth, an advertisement from Austin talking about the power plant: [3]. Just in case anyone else is interested. TomTheHand 21:45, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
The first six-speed manual transmission is listed as 1986 Porsche 959, but what about cars with overdrive? If a car had four gears and overdrive on the two highest gears like the Triumph Spitfire (certainly not the first). 4 + 2 = 6. I have also read something about a russian car, possibly the Moskvitch 410/411 having six gears in the 1960s, but since they were SUVs (and may be a contestant for the title "First crossover SUV") it probably just was the standard three speed gearbox equipped with high and low gears. 3 * 2 = 6. // Liftarn
Or what about the David? The article says it used a "belt and pulley transmission giving 16 speeds", but another source [4] says it's just 3+reverse. The picture of the dashboard seems to confirm this. // Liftarn
Or was is used instead of a throttle? Anyway, I'm afraid even pre-war cars do count. // Liftarn
We lack som record beating dimensions. Lowest, highest, widest and narrowest. The lowest is said to be a custom Mini at 24 inches (61 cm) [5], but it's not a production car. Jaguar Mark X was the widest. The BMW X5 is also said to be very wide, but we need numbers. The 1973 Cadillac Eldorado and Lotus Esprit also have been suggested. 1966 Jaguar Mark 10 4.2 was 6'4" wide (in metric?). Micro Car ME-2 at at 88 centimeters, (34.64 inches) perhaps. Except that it's not in production yet, but it would beat the 99 cm (39") Peel P50. The Sparrow P.T.M. is the narrowest currently in production. [6] // Liftarn
I was bold and added the Concept Centaur GT as lowest. [7] The Probe 15 from Adams Probe Motor Co. is lower at 29", but only two was made. [8] They are kit cars so I don't really think they qualify as production cars, but just to get things started. // Liftarn
Ok, I'll remove the Vector W8 since it's not lowest in any way. We still have no entry for narrowest track. It's probably the Peel P50, but we need numbers. // Liftarn
The first SUV is now listed as the 1935 Chevrolet Suburban, but back then it wasn't a SUV, but a station wagon. The first would probably be the 1942 Dodge Carryall (if it was sold to the public and not just the army). [9] As for crossover SUV my bet is on the 1957 Moskvitch 410 rather than the 1980 AMC Eagle. // Liftarn
If it needs to be a station wagon, then the first XUV would be the Moskvitch 411 rather than the Moskvitch 410. The year would be the same. I have read http://www.classictruckshop.com/clubs/earlyburbs/history.htm and I found nothing about off-road capacity on the 1935 Chevrolet Suburban. According to http://www.carpartswholesale.com/cpw/chevrolet~suburban~parts.html it wasn't until the 1990s the Suburban became a SUV. // Liftarn
Worst sales needs some work. I removed the Mazda B-Series since it easily outsells LOTS of other cars in the US market, and is really popular worldwide. I like the average sales per year bit used for the Blackwood.
Maybe add a current lowest seller rank for the US market? My reading of the data for 2004 and 2005 suggests that, excluding cancelled, new, exotic, limited vehicles, the Hummer H1 at 374 in 2005 is worst. The Infiniti Q45 is compelling at 1,129 for 2005, as is the VW Phaeton at 820. -- SFoskett 21:20, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
this article specifically states that Lancia had a power-folding hardtop in the 1930s. Automotive News is a respectable source, so I changed the list entry. Now, which Lancia would this be? -- SFoskett 14:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
The article lists 1994 as being the year that regenerative braking was introduced on the Toyota Prius, but the car itself didn't go on sale in Japan until 1997. This page indicates a concept car that would lead to the Prius was designed in 1994, but it looks like it wouldn't be unveiled for another year. What is the criteria for listing the year of this accomplishment? I would think 1997, the year this technology was actually offered to consumers, is the appropriate year to list.
The consensus on Ford Mustang in Talk:Sports car looks to me like it is not a sports car, at least in the versions that have sold well.
I suggest that this superlative be dropped from the list, because the terms "best selling" and "sports car" are in conflict. Hundreds of cars might have this title, depending on whose definition of "sports car" is used. David R. Ingham 00:45, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I went ahead and unilaterally deleted the entry. My neighbor just bought one, and she does not argue that it is a sports car. Even if some people do think styling makes a sports car, it does not make sense to list a superlative that is so vague.
To argue the specific case of the Mustang: Road and Track said that the editor of Motor trend had a (original) Mustang re-styled on the same theme in Italy. Their comment was that "One less visually oriented might have sent it to England to have its suspension re-designed."
The trouble with this superlative is that any car listed under that heading would bring up similar arguments. The only objective measure I can think of would be hight, but that does not always work either. (Thunderbird and Spatz are exceptions.) David R. Ingham 04:07, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I noticed this list jointly credits the Bugatti EB110 3.5 L V12, Mitsubishi Minica Dangan ZZ 0.7 L I4 and Toyota 4A-GE I4. Two probs with that:
So, I'm going to edit the page to give MMC sole credit, unless someone can cite a source to trump that. -- DeLarge 22:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
We have five honorable mentions for four wheel steering and I can't think of any reason why anything but the Daimler-Benz offroad trucks deserve it. We don't use honorable mentions to point out second place, but rather to point out cars that would have won if circumstances had been slightly different... like if a certain car is considered street legal, or if a certain car had 20 units produced. If there are no objections, I'm going to make serious cuts on the "First four wheel steering" list. TomTheHand 13:17, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Nothing seems to have been done in the last two weeks, so I was bold and tidied this myself. I also moved 4ws from "suspension" to "other", and moved "active diffs" from "other" to "suspension" while I was at it. DeLarge 10:52, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Anyone have any ideas? I was cleaning up some POV fluff in the Mitsubishi Sirius engine article where as user claimed that the 4G63 2.0 L "surely must be one of the longest production engines ever" because it's been in production from "1987 to 2006". OK, that's nonsense (aside from everything else, production of the 4G63 started in 1980), but it got me wondering at what is (or was) the engine with the longest lifespan?
Of course, we'd also need to lay down parameters for what qualifies as a single engine - same problems as when comparing the Toyota Corolla nameplate with the VW Beetle, I guess. Bore/stroke and engine code remaining the same - is that enough? Or should the criteria be more/less strict?
I really have no idea what the answer is, so I'm hoping someone's going to read this and get me an answer - Google's been no help so far... DeLarge 10:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Best I can suggest is the 1947 BMC B-Series engine, specifically the 1500 used in the Indian Hindustan Ambassador. As far as I can tell, they didn't do anything to it from its introduction in 1958 until 1993 when an Isuzu 1.8L version came out. And from the Hindustan Motors website, a bi-fuel version may still be available (same bore/stroke/capacity, at least). The 1500 engine itself debuted in an MGA in 1953, so that'd be 59 years for the B-series as a whole, 53 years for the 1500, and 40 years if we're really strict and all mods/redesigns are disallowed. Looks like it's this or the Beetle's air-cooled engine to me so far... -- DeLarge 17:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I tend toward feeling that engine family would be the way to go, and the Beetle engine, with its various bore/stroke combinations, should be considered one engine. TomTheHand 18:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like we're suggesting two awards:
I'd still like to include the Model T engine since it was specifically kept nearly identical all those years... But of course it wasn't shipped in a vehicle for the last dozen years or so... Thoughts? -- SFoskett 19:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Jaguar DOHC straight six? 1949 to 1992 - 43 years...