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I'd like to know who updated the List of automotive superlatives with this information: Most powerful naturally-aspirated engine - ... (runner-up: 600 hp V10, 2004 Dodge Viper)
It's not true, for two reasons. After the 660 hp of the Ferrari Enzo, there's still the 655 hp of the Koenigsegg CC 8S, the 630 hp of the Maserati MC12, the 627 hp of the McLaren F1, the 626 hp of the Mercedes SLR, and the 612 hp of the Porsche Carrera GT and Mercedes S/CL/SL 65 AMG.
Second, the Dodge Viper never had 600 hp on road trim, the previous generation had a maximum of 460 hp from the Club Racing special, and the current generation has only 505 hp. -- Pc13 17:25, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The electric and hybrid car entries are wrong. I've found references ( http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761580732/Electric_Car.html#endads, http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aacarselectrica.htm) to electric cars as far back as the early 1800s, and unequivocally by the late 1800s, and some sort of hybrid in the early 1900s. However I haven't found specific models and exact years. AndyChrist
FYI, the VW Golf has sold 22 million as of December 20, 2002 in all its names and forms. It is arguably the best-selling VW, but nowhere near the Corolla (which always used that name). VW built 865,500 Golfs in 2001, though. Not bad... -- SFoskett 14:32, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
The Isuzu VehiCROSS sold just 4153 in three years, but it was not really a mainstram vehicle - I don't think Isuzu would have produced thousands even if there were customers asking for them, unlike the X-90. -- SFoskett 03:53, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)
This page seems a little inconsistent about that post-war qualification under the 'Types' heading. —Morven 20:18, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)
I'm still trying to find out if the FIA required any road-going versions of the Ferrari 860 for it to race in sports car events (there was no GT class back then) although [
Ferrari World.com] calls it a competition car. I don't think it did, though, so the Ferrari 125 is disqualified from being the smallest V12 as well.
Still, bigger engines than the 2.8-liter GM have been seen frequently in the last 25 years: 3.4 L Toyota Land Cruiser 60, 3.2 L Mitsubishi Pajero/Montero Di-D, 3.2 L Nissan Pathfinder MkII, 3.1 L Isuzu Trooper, 3.0 L (OHV) Toyota Land Cruiser 60, 3.0 L (SOHC TDi and DOHC D-4D) Toyota Land Cruiser 70, 90 and 120, 3.0 L Isuzu Trooper and D-MAX, 3.0 L Nissan Patrol GR VDi and PickUp D22 VDi, 3.0 L Porsche 968.
I've noticed some automotive articles have too much of an American bias to them (I've edited the Mazda3, for example), especially when talking about cars that are European and Japanese in origin and available worldwide. I think knowledge of [ Autoindex] and [ Histomobile] should be recommended for all interested in Wikipedia:WikiProject_Automobiles. -- Pc13 13:53, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Isn't that 4.6 L Mazda for heavy duty trucks? I think it would be best if heavy duty trucks had their own section, since their engines are much bigger than a regular car's. For example, in Europe, motorized vehicles with two or more axles and a gross weight over 3.5 metric tons (without trailer) are considered heavy duty. I don't know what the limit is in the US. It seems the 3.8 L Mercedes OM-314 used in the Brazilian Toyota Bandeirante (local Land Cruiser BJ40 variant) is a four-cylinder, so it might be the bigger one. I still need confirmation on that. In any case, both this and the 3.4 L Toyota 13B are Diesel. Biggest gas engine would then be the Porsche 968. -- Pc13 18:20, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A new "largest non-Diesel": The 3.2 L (3188 cc/194.5 in³) 1961 Pontiac Tempest 195! Anyone know what happened to this engine after '64? -- SFoskett 14:54, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)
Anyone want to have a stab at the shortest production run, not counting one-offs or prototypes? I know the Maserati Quattroporte II did 13 in the mid-1970s but I am sure there were models that had three or six. Stombs 00:26, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)
The Renault 16 is currently listed but surely it was the Farina-designed Austin A40? I'm going to make a change but if there are problems, please let me know or feel free to modify. Stombs 08:13, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
I've changed this to the Peugeot 401 D Eclipse of 1934. There were also the Ford Skyliners of the 1950s, I imagine. Stombs 08:20, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
This one might be fun: would the AMC Eagle qualify? I get a bit irritated when Subaru claimed to have invented the niche in its advertising. Stombs 07:15, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)
I don't mean to be a pain about this, but I have a serious issue with calling things like ABS, traction-control, airbags, stability-control, etc. "safety" equipment/features or whatever. In my view at least, it is an example of framing. The implication seems to be that any vehicle which lacks any of these things is unsafe and that adding these features automatically makes the car safe or even just "safer". Convincing arguments can be (and have been) made that ABS/stability-control, for example, encourages the design of progressively more unsafe vehicles, promotes their sale and encourages unsafe driving practices. Airbags have limited value in improving safety when seat belts are worn and can actually increase danger to occupants - especially in convertibles in rollover accidents (think about it, do you really want to be forced into an upright position in your seat as you're rolling over in a convertible?). Traction-control is probably the least problematic of the bunch, but I always switch mine off when I'm driving in the rain. My car (supercharged Jaguar) is more predictable to drive in slippery conditions with the TC off - even with the massive torque the engine puts out. Thanks for letting me rant. -- JonGwynne 18:10, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Is it true that the 1964 Honda S600 had a 4-valve engine? I have a 1965 issue of Road & Track with a review of the car, and they don't mention this novel feature. Neither does the original S600 brochure. Perhaps someone confused DOHC with multivalve? If it's not the S600 that was first, which car was it? The next looks like the 1972 Jensen Healey. -- SFoskett 03:59, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)
The Type 13 was not really a production car. But the Bugatti Type 51 was. Same deal for the Type 30 - it used the Type 29 engine but wasn't a production car really. But the Bugatti Type 35 was a production car (nearly 150 made). -- SFoskett 23:41, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)
I think that Ballot may have produced a 4-valve before the Bugatti 51. BTW was the Ferrari 166 Inter produced at more than 20 examples. 20 examples qualify the Porsche 917, 956 (probaly) and 962 as production I think this made one of them the fastest production car ever built (I mean top speed). Ericd 19:22, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've verified the Bugatti 51 was the 4-valve evolution of the 3-valve 35 a Grand Prix car (more or less a formula 1) however it was a popular car among gentlemen-drivers and I'm quite sure the production exceeded 20 ex. Ericd 20:52, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Yow! I just found out that Toyota produced a 20-valve (5vpc) version of their 4A-G engine in 1992! This has got to be the earliest full-production 5-valve engine. Even if Bugatti did beat them to it, this is way-notable... I'm seeking more information now. -- SFoskett 14:53, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)
--- A couple of points:
-- JonGwynne 20:48, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC) ---
Hey PC, I think they said no tuner cars so doesn't that exclude the AMG Merc? What do you think? -- JonGwynne 23:43, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I noticed that the largest diesel straight-6 is listed as a 4.2 L diesel found in the Ford F250. Is there a reason the 5.9 L Cummings Turbodiesel found in the Dodge Ram does not have this title? If not, I'll go ahead and make the change. TomTheHand 21:30, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)
Ugh, some part of my brain totally knew it's Cummins, not Cummings ;-) I need to pay more attention. I'll make the edit! Thanks. TomTheHand 06:00, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
Made the update, but I wasn't able to find much info about the engine's name. The 1988 engine is obviously not listed on Cummins' web site any more ;-) Couldn't find it anywhere else either. The current 5.9 L Cummins Turbodiesel in Rams is substantially different from the 1988 one. TomTheHand 06:15, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
The Cummins engine is available in the Dodge Ram 2500 and 3500, both light duty trucks. The 2500 is a 3/4 ton truck, equivalent to a Ford F-250 (which is, in fact, the vehicle previously listed with the largest straight-six), while the 3500 is a one-ton version. These vehicles are readily available to consumers and are not medium- or heavy-duty trucks. TomTheHand 05:18, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
There's heavy-duty, and then there's heavy-duty ;-) When DiamlerChrysler refers to the Ram as a heavy-duty truck, they mean that it is tough and capable. Heavy duty trucks have a GVWR of over 26,001 lbs. On the other hand, you are correct that a 9000 lb GVWR barely bumps the 2500 into the medium-duty range. The threshold for a medium duty truck is 8500 lbs. However, I think the Dodge Ram only received this bump in GVWR in 2003 with the introduction of the Cummins Turbodiesel "600". I'll try to verify this. If it only received the bump in 2003, then it is certainly deserving of the award for 1989.
Note that here is what is usually thought of as a medium-duty truck: http://www.gmc.com/mediumduty/index.jsp
And following is a list of entries on the list which are in the same class as the diesel Dodge Ram 2500 and which would probably need to be replaced:
Largest V8 engine (Diesel) - 7.3 L (7275 cc/444 in³) - 1997 Ford F250 Powerstroke
Heaviest passenger vehicle - 3900 kg (8600 lb) GVWR - 2003 Hummer H2
Highest total horsepower, Diesel - 325 hp (239 kW) - Ford Powerstroke, 2004 Ford Excursion
Highest total torque, Diesel - 2004 Ford Excursion (Powerstroke), 759 Nm (560 lb/ft)
Additionally, as I said, the engine that the Cummins 5.9L replaced was a 4.2L six in a Ford F250. The Ford F250 is in the same market class as the Ram 2500, and so even if its GVWR doesn't exceed 8500 lbs with that engine, it exceeds it with optional larger engines. It seems like a violation of the spirit of the law. TomTheHand 15:15, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
I'm having a lot of trouble finding GVWR information for older Dodge Rams. Nevertheless, I believe it's wrong to classify Dodge Rams as medium duty trucks because they have a carrying capacity a few hundred pounds out of the light duty segment. This class of vehicles is sold as, and is considered by the manufacturers to be, light duty trucks. See above for an example of a medium duty truck. TomTheHand 15:37, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
There are some vehicles hopefully coming out in the near future I'm pretty excited about. The Bugatti Veyron is supposed to finally be entering production this year with the first examples being delivered in the fall. That'll change highest horsepower and highest top speed for sure, with the possibility of other changes.
Also, the new Chevrolet Corvette Z06 is due out soon. It will feature a 7.0 L small block, which will take the displacement record in that category.
The new BMW M5 hit the streets recently. It's electronically limited to 155 mph, but can do 205 without the limiter... does anyone think we should update "highest top speed" for this, or does the electronic limit take out of the running?
Also, I added the 2005 Mitsubishi Lancer VIII FQ400 as the fastest 0-60 for a four seat car. This car may be classified as a tuner car, but I believe it should be considered production... it is, after all, tuned by Mitsubishi UK, and seems just as valid as an AMG car. Anyone have strong opinions against it?
Anyone else anticipating the list changing soon? TomTheHand 08:12, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
Chevy did indeed bore and stroke the Gen IV small block to achieve 7 liters. This is based on what had been done several years before to create the C5R engine. The block has the same exterior dimensions as the Gen III/IV small block, but a larger bore and greater stroke. Indeed, for years you've been able to purchase a C5R block (large bore) and interchange it with a stock LS1 block (tons of work, new pistons, etc, etc of course). It's also possible to bore out the stock Gen III/IV block and press in new cylinder liners to match the bore size of the C5R/LS7 block.
Hope that's not too confusing. In summary, yes, it's a small block with the same dimensions as previous Gen III/IV blocks but larger bore and stroke. TomTheHand 19:32, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
I'm not so sure about the Hummer H2 as the heaviest passenger vehicle. Its GVWR is listed. Is the intention here to list the passenger vehicle with the greatest capacity, or the greatest curb weight? I would imagine the Hummer H1, among others, would beat the H2 in both categories. If anyone can give me insight as to the intent of this entry, I'll try to look up the vehicle that belongs here. TomTheHand 18:56, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
I've done some thinking about this. I think that "Heaviest passenger vehicle" should list the vehicle with the highest curb weight. I think pickup trucks should be included in this running; how does one draw the line between an SUV like the Hummer H2, the Hummer H2 SUT with a pickup truck bed, and a full pickup truck? However, I don't think that a pickup truck will be the "winner" in this category. Still have to do some research into this.
The problem with this is that manufacturers are not, as far as I know, required to list the curb weight of trucks. They list the GVWR instead, which is the maximum weight for the vehicle carrying a full payload. I'll try to find the curb weight of the Hummer H1, which I think will be the highest, and replace the H2's current listing. TomTheHand 15:00, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
Please stop putting the 230 hp Saab 9-3 Viggen on the page as an honorable mention for most powerful FWD. Here are a few more powerful FWDs:
1. Anything with a Northstar engine. The currently listed winners had special edition 300 hp Northstars, but 275 hp Northstars were found in the Cadillac Seville, Deville, and Eldorado and the Pontiac Bonneville. A smaller 250 hp version was found in the Oldsmobile Aurora.
2. Any of the various GM vehicles with their supercharged, 240 hp V6. This includes the Monte Carlo, the Impala, and Pontiac Bonnevilles before they put in the Northstar V8.
3. Anything with Honda's 240-255 hp V6. This includes the Accord and the Odyssey.
4. Many, many premium/large Japanese cars, including the Acura TL, with a 275 hp V6, and the Toyota Avalon, with a 280 hp V6.
5. Any of a number of Volvos, like the C70, with a 242 hp inline-5.
There you have it. Leave the Viggen off the list. TomTheHand 11:47, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
I checked ( [2] and [3]) and nothing was added, just deleted. The TVR Cerbera Speed 12 prototype is (as is says) a prototype and not a production road car. // Liftarn
Fair enough. When I googled those were the results I found. Thanks for the clearification on the "Honorable Mentions". I thought it was for runner ups. // Liftarn
We've been trying to stick to just passenger vehicles, so I'd prefer to replace "1920 Mack Trucks" with the first passenger vehicle application, or add the first passenger vehicle application as well. However, I don't know the first passenger vehicle to feature power brakes ;-) Anyone have any ideas? TomTheHand 15:40, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
Another issue here. The first swivel headlights is reported to be the 1948 Tucker '48, but didn't Tatra use a turning centre headlight on some of the pre-war models, like Tatra T87? // Liftarn
I checked and indeed the 1936 Tatra T77 had a centre headlight that turned. [6] // Liftarn
I fail to find any real references for the super-long wheelbase Checker Aerocar. What I DO find indicates that it's a commercial limousine model. I think this doesn't belong. What else had a really long wheelbase? -- SFoskett 21:19, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
Rule number three - The Aerobus was not intended for sale to individuals. The fact that some own one now is immaterial. It's clearly a limousine and was clearly (judging by the name) intended for a specific market that was not consumers. Either it's demoted to a mention or removed entirely, right? -- SFoskett 03:22, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
I've been doing some checking of likely long-wheelbase suspects. The longest-wheelbase Rolls-Royce is the 1994+ Rolls-Royce Touring Limousine at 3772 mm (148.5 in), next is the 1968-1991 Phantom VI at 3683 mm (145 in), next is the new Phantom at 3570 mm (140.55 in). The new LWB Phantom will be at 3820 mm (150.4 in). The Maybach 62 is about 150.7 in (3827.8 mm). The Stutz Royale was apparently longer but only three were made. The Mercedes-Benz W116 is nowhere close. Looks like that Caddy is it for now. -- SFoskett 20:38, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)
BTW the Citroën Traction Avant is certainly not the first First front wheel drive car I heard of Spyker or Tracta. Ericd 12:20, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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I'd like to know who updated the List of automotive superlatives with this information: Most powerful naturally-aspirated engine - ... (runner-up: 600 hp V10, 2004 Dodge Viper)
It's not true, for two reasons. After the 660 hp of the Ferrari Enzo, there's still the 655 hp of the Koenigsegg CC 8S, the 630 hp of the Maserati MC12, the 627 hp of the McLaren F1, the 626 hp of the Mercedes SLR, and the 612 hp of the Porsche Carrera GT and Mercedes S/CL/SL 65 AMG.
Second, the Dodge Viper never had 600 hp on road trim, the previous generation had a maximum of 460 hp from the Club Racing special, and the current generation has only 505 hp. -- Pc13 17:25, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The electric and hybrid car entries are wrong. I've found references ( http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761580732/Electric_Car.html#endads, http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aacarselectrica.htm) to electric cars as far back as the early 1800s, and unequivocally by the late 1800s, and some sort of hybrid in the early 1900s. However I haven't found specific models and exact years. AndyChrist
FYI, the VW Golf has sold 22 million as of December 20, 2002 in all its names and forms. It is arguably the best-selling VW, but nowhere near the Corolla (which always used that name). VW built 865,500 Golfs in 2001, though. Not bad... -- SFoskett 14:32, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
The Isuzu VehiCROSS sold just 4153 in three years, but it was not really a mainstram vehicle - I don't think Isuzu would have produced thousands even if there were customers asking for them, unlike the X-90. -- SFoskett 03:53, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)
This page seems a little inconsistent about that post-war qualification under the 'Types' heading. —Morven 20:18, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)
I'm still trying to find out if the FIA required any road-going versions of the Ferrari 860 for it to race in sports car events (there was no GT class back then) although [
Ferrari World.com] calls it a competition car. I don't think it did, though, so the Ferrari 125 is disqualified from being the smallest V12 as well.
Still, bigger engines than the 2.8-liter GM have been seen frequently in the last 25 years: 3.4 L Toyota Land Cruiser 60, 3.2 L Mitsubishi Pajero/Montero Di-D, 3.2 L Nissan Pathfinder MkII, 3.1 L Isuzu Trooper, 3.0 L (OHV) Toyota Land Cruiser 60, 3.0 L (SOHC TDi and DOHC D-4D) Toyota Land Cruiser 70, 90 and 120, 3.0 L Isuzu Trooper and D-MAX, 3.0 L Nissan Patrol GR VDi and PickUp D22 VDi, 3.0 L Porsche 968.
I've noticed some automotive articles have too much of an American bias to them (I've edited the Mazda3, for example), especially when talking about cars that are European and Japanese in origin and available worldwide. I think knowledge of [ Autoindex] and [ Histomobile] should be recommended for all interested in Wikipedia:WikiProject_Automobiles. -- Pc13 13:53, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Isn't that 4.6 L Mazda for heavy duty trucks? I think it would be best if heavy duty trucks had their own section, since their engines are much bigger than a regular car's. For example, in Europe, motorized vehicles with two or more axles and a gross weight over 3.5 metric tons (without trailer) are considered heavy duty. I don't know what the limit is in the US. It seems the 3.8 L Mercedes OM-314 used in the Brazilian Toyota Bandeirante (local Land Cruiser BJ40 variant) is a four-cylinder, so it might be the bigger one. I still need confirmation on that. In any case, both this and the 3.4 L Toyota 13B are Diesel. Biggest gas engine would then be the Porsche 968. -- Pc13 18:20, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A new "largest non-Diesel": The 3.2 L (3188 cc/194.5 in³) 1961 Pontiac Tempest 195! Anyone know what happened to this engine after '64? -- SFoskett 14:54, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)
Anyone want to have a stab at the shortest production run, not counting one-offs or prototypes? I know the Maserati Quattroporte II did 13 in the mid-1970s but I am sure there were models that had three or six. Stombs 00:26, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)
The Renault 16 is currently listed but surely it was the Farina-designed Austin A40? I'm going to make a change but if there are problems, please let me know or feel free to modify. Stombs 08:13, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
I've changed this to the Peugeot 401 D Eclipse of 1934. There were also the Ford Skyliners of the 1950s, I imagine. Stombs 08:20, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
This one might be fun: would the AMC Eagle qualify? I get a bit irritated when Subaru claimed to have invented the niche in its advertising. Stombs 07:15, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)
I don't mean to be a pain about this, but I have a serious issue with calling things like ABS, traction-control, airbags, stability-control, etc. "safety" equipment/features or whatever. In my view at least, it is an example of framing. The implication seems to be that any vehicle which lacks any of these things is unsafe and that adding these features automatically makes the car safe or even just "safer". Convincing arguments can be (and have been) made that ABS/stability-control, for example, encourages the design of progressively more unsafe vehicles, promotes their sale and encourages unsafe driving practices. Airbags have limited value in improving safety when seat belts are worn and can actually increase danger to occupants - especially in convertibles in rollover accidents (think about it, do you really want to be forced into an upright position in your seat as you're rolling over in a convertible?). Traction-control is probably the least problematic of the bunch, but I always switch mine off when I'm driving in the rain. My car (supercharged Jaguar) is more predictable to drive in slippery conditions with the TC off - even with the massive torque the engine puts out. Thanks for letting me rant. -- JonGwynne 18:10, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Is it true that the 1964 Honda S600 had a 4-valve engine? I have a 1965 issue of Road & Track with a review of the car, and they don't mention this novel feature. Neither does the original S600 brochure. Perhaps someone confused DOHC with multivalve? If it's not the S600 that was first, which car was it? The next looks like the 1972 Jensen Healey. -- SFoskett 03:59, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)
The Type 13 was not really a production car. But the Bugatti Type 51 was. Same deal for the Type 30 - it used the Type 29 engine but wasn't a production car really. But the Bugatti Type 35 was a production car (nearly 150 made). -- SFoskett 23:41, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)
I think that Ballot may have produced a 4-valve before the Bugatti 51. BTW was the Ferrari 166 Inter produced at more than 20 examples. 20 examples qualify the Porsche 917, 956 (probaly) and 962 as production I think this made one of them the fastest production car ever built (I mean top speed). Ericd 19:22, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've verified the Bugatti 51 was the 4-valve evolution of the 3-valve 35 a Grand Prix car (more or less a formula 1) however it was a popular car among gentlemen-drivers and I'm quite sure the production exceeded 20 ex. Ericd 20:52, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Yow! I just found out that Toyota produced a 20-valve (5vpc) version of their 4A-G engine in 1992! This has got to be the earliest full-production 5-valve engine. Even if Bugatti did beat them to it, this is way-notable... I'm seeking more information now. -- SFoskett 14:53, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)
--- A couple of points:
-- JonGwynne 20:48, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC) ---
Hey PC, I think they said no tuner cars so doesn't that exclude the AMG Merc? What do you think? -- JonGwynne 23:43, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I noticed that the largest diesel straight-6 is listed as a 4.2 L diesel found in the Ford F250. Is there a reason the 5.9 L Cummings Turbodiesel found in the Dodge Ram does not have this title? If not, I'll go ahead and make the change. TomTheHand 21:30, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)
Ugh, some part of my brain totally knew it's Cummins, not Cummings ;-) I need to pay more attention. I'll make the edit! Thanks. TomTheHand 06:00, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
Made the update, but I wasn't able to find much info about the engine's name. The 1988 engine is obviously not listed on Cummins' web site any more ;-) Couldn't find it anywhere else either. The current 5.9 L Cummins Turbodiesel in Rams is substantially different from the 1988 one. TomTheHand 06:15, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
The Cummins engine is available in the Dodge Ram 2500 and 3500, both light duty trucks. The 2500 is a 3/4 ton truck, equivalent to a Ford F-250 (which is, in fact, the vehicle previously listed with the largest straight-six), while the 3500 is a one-ton version. These vehicles are readily available to consumers and are not medium- or heavy-duty trucks. TomTheHand 05:18, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
There's heavy-duty, and then there's heavy-duty ;-) When DiamlerChrysler refers to the Ram as a heavy-duty truck, they mean that it is tough and capable. Heavy duty trucks have a GVWR of over 26,001 lbs. On the other hand, you are correct that a 9000 lb GVWR barely bumps the 2500 into the medium-duty range. The threshold for a medium duty truck is 8500 lbs. However, I think the Dodge Ram only received this bump in GVWR in 2003 with the introduction of the Cummins Turbodiesel "600". I'll try to verify this. If it only received the bump in 2003, then it is certainly deserving of the award for 1989.
Note that here is what is usually thought of as a medium-duty truck: http://www.gmc.com/mediumduty/index.jsp
And following is a list of entries on the list which are in the same class as the diesel Dodge Ram 2500 and which would probably need to be replaced:
Largest V8 engine (Diesel) - 7.3 L (7275 cc/444 in³) - 1997 Ford F250 Powerstroke
Heaviest passenger vehicle - 3900 kg (8600 lb) GVWR - 2003 Hummer H2
Highest total horsepower, Diesel - 325 hp (239 kW) - Ford Powerstroke, 2004 Ford Excursion
Highest total torque, Diesel - 2004 Ford Excursion (Powerstroke), 759 Nm (560 lb/ft)
Additionally, as I said, the engine that the Cummins 5.9L replaced was a 4.2L six in a Ford F250. The Ford F250 is in the same market class as the Ram 2500, and so even if its GVWR doesn't exceed 8500 lbs with that engine, it exceeds it with optional larger engines. It seems like a violation of the spirit of the law. TomTheHand 15:15, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
I'm having a lot of trouble finding GVWR information for older Dodge Rams. Nevertheless, I believe it's wrong to classify Dodge Rams as medium duty trucks because they have a carrying capacity a few hundred pounds out of the light duty segment. This class of vehicles is sold as, and is considered by the manufacturers to be, light duty trucks. See above for an example of a medium duty truck. TomTheHand 15:37, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
There are some vehicles hopefully coming out in the near future I'm pretty excited about. The Bugatti Veyron is supposed to finally be entering production this year with the first examples being delivered in the fall. That'll change highest horsepower and highest top speed for sure, with the possibility of other changes.
Also, the new Chevrolet Corvette Z06 is due out soon. It will feature a 7.0 L small block, which will take the displacement record in that category.
The new BMW M5 hit the streets recently. It's electronically limited to 155 mph, but can do 205 without the limiter... does anyone think we should update "highest top speed" for this, or does the electronic limit take out of the running?
Also, I added the 2005 Mitsubishi Lancer VIII FQ400 as the fastest 0-60 for a four seat car. This car may be classified as a tuner car, but I believe it should be considered production... it is, after all, tuned by Mitsubishi UK, and seems just as valid as an AMG car. Anyone have strong opinions against it?
Anyone else anticipating the list changing soon? TomTheHand 08:12, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
Chevy did indeed bore and stroke the Gen IV small block to achieve 7 liters. This is based on what had been done several years before to create the C5R engine. The block has the same exterior dimensions as the Gen III/IV small block, but a larger bore and greater stroke. Indeed, for years you've been able to purchase a C5R block (large bore) and interchange it with a stock LS1 block (tons of work, new pistons, etc, etc of course). It's also possible to bore out the stock Gen III/IV block and press in new cylinder liners to match the bore size of the C5R/LS7 block.
Hope that's not too confusing. In summary, yes, it's a small block with the same dimensions as previous Gen III/IV blocks but larger bore and stroke. TomTheHand 19:32, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
I'm not so sure about the Hummer H2 as the heaviest passenger vehicle. Its GVWR is listed. Is the intention here to list the passenger vehicle with the greatest capacity, or the greatest curb weight? I would imagine the Hummer H1, among others, would beat the H2 in both categories. If anyone can give me insight as to the intent of this entry, I'll try to look up the vehicle that belongs here. TomTheHand 18:56, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
I've done some thinking about this. I think that "Heaviest passenger vehicle" should list the vehicle with the highest curb weight. I think pickup trucks should be included in this running; how does one draw the line between an SUV like the Hummer H2, the Hummer H2 SUT with a pickup truck bed, and a full pickup truck? However, I don't think that a pickup truck will be the "winner" in this category. Still have to do some research into this.
The problem with this is that manufacturers are not, as far as I know, required to list the curb weight of trucks. They list the GVWR instead, which is the maximum weight for the vehicle carrying a full payload. I'll try to find the curb weight of the Hummer H1, which I think will be the highest, and replace the H2's current listing. TomTheHand 15:00, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
Please stop putting the 230 hp Saab 9-3 Viggen on the page as an honorable mention for most powerful FWD. Here are a few more powerful FWDs:
1. Anything with a Northstar engine. The currently listed winners had special edition 300 hp Northstars, but 275 hp Northstars were found in the Cadillac Seville, Deville, and Eldorado and the Pontiac Bonneville. A smaller 250 hp version was found in the Oldsmobile Aurora.
2. Any of the various GM vehicles with their supercharged, 240 hp V6. This includes the Monte Carlo, the Impala, and Pontiac Bonnevilles before they put in the Northstar V8.
3. Anything with Honda's 240-255 hp V6. This includes the Accord and the Odyssey.
4. Many, many premium/large Japanese cars, including the Acura TL, with a 275 hp V6, and the Toyota Avalon, with a 280 hp V6.
5. Any of a number of Volvos, like the C70, with a 242 hp inline-5.
There you have it. Leave the Viggen off the list. TomTheHand 11:47, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
I checked ( [2] and [3]) and nothing was added, just deleted. The TVR Cerbera Speed 12 prototype is (as is says) a prototype and not a production road car. // Liftarn
Fair enough. When I googled those were the results I found. Thanks for the clearification on the "Honorable Mentions". I thought it was for runner ups. // Liftarn
We've been trying to stick to just passenger vehicles, so I'd prefer to replace "1920 Mack Trucks" with the first passenger vehicle application, or add the first passenger vehicle application as well. However, I don't know the first passenger vehicle to feature power brakes ;-) Anyone have any ideas? TomTheHand 15:40, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
Another issue here. The first swivel headlights is reported to be the 1948 Tucker '48, but didn't Tatra use a turning centre headlight on some of the pre-war models, like Tatra T87? // Liftarn
I checked and indeed the 1936 Tatra T77 had a centre headlight that turned. [6] // Liftarn
I fail to find any real references for the super-long wheelbase Checker Aerocar. What I DO find indicates that it's a commercial limousine model. I think this doesn't belong. What else had a really long wheelbase? -- SFoskett 21:19, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
Rule number three - The Aerobus was not intended for sale to individuals. The fact that some own one now is immaterial. It's clearly a limousine and was clearly (judging by the name) intended for a specific market that was not consumers. Either it's demoted to a mention or removed entirely, right? -- SFoskett 03:22, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
I've been doing some checking of likely long-wheelbase suspects. The longest-wheelbase Rolls-Royce is the 1994+ Rolls-Royce Touring Limousine at 3772 mm (148.5 in), next is the 1968-1991 Phantom VI at 3683 mm (145 in), next is the new Phantom at 3570 mm (140.55 in). The new LWB Phantom will be at 3820 mm (150.4 in). The Maybach 62 is about 150.7 in (3827.8 mm). The Stutz Royale was apparently longer but only three were made. The Mercedes-Benz W116 is nowhere close. Looks like that Caddy is it for now. -- SFoskett 20:38, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)
BTW the Citroën Traction Avant is certainly not the first First front wheel drive car I heard of Spyker or Tracta. Ericd 12:20, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)