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Here's a link on the subject of "first 4x4":
http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/who.html
Four wheel drive is almost as old as automobiles are. I would be fine with including one of the vehicles on the above link but I'd also like to indepedently verify the info. TomTheHand 21:45, May 23, 2005 (UTC)
Liftarn beat me to the punch :-) Thanks. However, the link for the Lohner-Porsche doesn't seem to mention 4WD. TomTheHand 13:44, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
Sorry to edit again immediately, but this link: http://www.carkeys.co.uk/features/classichistoric/2938.asp says that while a 4WD Lohner-Porsche was built in 1901, it seems to have been a one-off and the cars were in general 2WD. TomTheHand 13:46, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
Goodness, it's difficult to find information about these cars! TomTheHand 21:56, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
Let's open discussion back up on this. Here's what I'm seeing:
First 4WD: 1901 Lohner-Porsche. The Lohner-Porsche started production in 1898, but the one-off 4WD version was built in 1901.
First mechanical 4WD: 1902 Jacobus Spyker, which was also a one-off.
First production 4WD truck: Perhaps 1910 Caldwell Vale trucks, perhaps 1911 Four Wheel Drive Auto Co. trucks? I feel iffy about where to draw the line about what trucks to include. After all, the CJ-2 was a truck, but I imagine we'd include it if it qualified for a record... so what's considered too "trucky" for this list?
I've been looking at this page [ [2]] and it's pretty interesting. It seems that the first 4WD production car might be the Citroen 2CV Sahara, which featured 4WD and two engines(!) in 1958. There's plenty of information on these, and apparently 694 were built, so it could be our first 4WD car unless we find a better one. TomTheHand 12:55, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
The Radical Motorsports SR3 listed on the page is not street legal; horsepower figures for a SR3 modified to pass SVA approval are not available. An SR3 with SVA kit features a catalytic converter and different engine management. These changes would reduce horsepower output. Should the SR3 remain on the list in spite of not meeting any standards of legality, or should it be bumped to Honorable Mention?s
I mean no offense by this, but I'm unsure about the inclusion of units of measurement on the page. All of this information is redundant; it can be found in other articles if someone is interested in a particular unit of measurement. TomTheHand 12:34, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
This "Least specific power" thing is just funny. Now we're down to 22.5 hp per liter - anyone want to go lower? I'd love to see a "worst power-to-weight" item, too... -- SFoskett 18:39, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
An anon added the Ford RS200 Evolution to the list yesterday as the fastest 0-60. I was thinking that we need to review this. I wasn't aware of this car before, and it seems pretty cool. However, Googling around, I'm finding wildly differing performance figures. There seems to be a lot of myth surrounding this vehicle, and there's a big problem with people presenting performance figures of modified cars as stock figures. On the other hand, 24 were produced, so if we can find solid performance data, I believe this car can qualify for certain records.
So far what I've found is that a total of 200 Ford RS200's were produced. Most were equipped with a 250 hp 1.8L turbocharged four cylinder. Rally versions ran higher boost and seem to have been available at up to 450 hp. The Evolution version, of which 24 were produced, had a 2.1L four cylinder, for which power figures vary pretty wildly. I've seen figures from 500+ to 700+ but 550 hp seems to be the correct figure.
This link is interesting: http://www.preromanbritain.com/gwem/martbean/rs200/performa.htm It's the result of 0-60 and 0-100 testing on a modified 600+ hp RS200 Evolution. It shows 0-60 speeds of 3.07 seconds. I've seen this figure here: http://www.motorsm.com/Collection/Supercars.htm as "fastest road test," not fastest production car, and the dates match up (1994) so I think the former link's test is what the latter link is referring to.
The impression that I get is that the RS200 Evolution, stock, put out 550 hp. This makes it our winner for highest specific output. However, a modified RS200, tuned to over 600 hp, only managed 0-60 in 3.07 seconds. A stock one would be somewhat slower. That makes the 1.8 second claim pretty dubious.
I'm eager to hear more information if you guys know anything. TomTheHand 14:01, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
This is a good question. It reminds me of the Mosler MT900, of which 11 racing models have been sold, but it appears that no (or maybe one) street version was sold. Or the Mosler Intruder, where 4 were built but just one was sold. I'm inclined to say that 20 have to have been sold to private parties since the racing versions are often substantially different than the civvie ones in ways that affect performance. But I'm not sure. -- SFoskett 18:49, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
But none of the Evos had less than 550 hp. Some of them had more. Some of them had a LOT more. I've read that some claimed over 700hp. But the safest way to judge them is by the minimum. The minimmum is 550 hp. Right? There were 20 sold to the public for on-road use because that was what Group B rules required. Right? So isnt that good enough for inclusion here?
The Ariel Atom seems like it should break a couple of the records: http://www.ariel.us.com/
It is supposedly road-legal with indicators and lights (Top Gear, UK only?) and in production, but I don't have figures, so who-knows. (The Ariel (vehicle) article says 30/year, which is also a record for "Lowest-production Models," but there is no reference to where that number came from, so I'm even more skeptical on that.
-- Prometheus235 21:02, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
On a side note, why does it state that the Ariel may not be street-legal in the US? Is it of any relevance whatsoever? None of the other vehicles mentioned in that section are legal for use in the US anyway. -- 196.2.127.9 09:02, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone know if this car was actually produced, and in the requisite numbers? All I can find are news stories back from 2001 in which B. Engineering was saying they were planning to build 21 cars. The chassis were to be used for Bugatti EB110's but were bought up by B. Engineering upon Bugatti's bankruptcy. While it seems like a very cool and very impressive vehicle, it also sounds like yet another story of a company turning out a concept vehicle and then disappearing. TomTheHand 18:00, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
Just wanted to discuss points brought up by the user with IP 66.167.248.149. Please check this link http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=List_of_automotive_superlatives&diff=15727293&oldid=15725870 to see what I'm talking about.
To start off, welcome to the "List of automotive superlatives" page!
Now, on to addressing your specific concerns. First, in reference to most powerful engine, the supercharged Mercedes Benz engine is not eligible because... it's supercharged! :-) That particular category is for naturally aspirated engines. If we had a "more than 1000 units" requirement, I imagine the winner might be the Dodge Viper.
Second, in reference to vehicles not street legal in the US, we actually have significant debate going on on that very subject. What it boils down to so far is that as long as it's street legal in its intended market, it's ok for inclusion on the list. The place where the debate gets nasty is where we start to define "street legal." The UK, for example, allows "Single Vehicle Approval" to more lenient standards for low-volume vehicles. Are these vehicles fully street legal? We don't agree, so we mostly just yell at each other.
As for cars from the 1960's winning the 300-400 hp power to weight category, an important factor to keep in mind is that US vehicles before 1973 were measured according to gross, rather than net, horsepower. Net horsepower is generally ~20% less than gross horsepower, so modern cars are more powerful than they appear when compared to muscle cars.
And finally, on the subject of the Koenigsegg CCR, this page http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=102363 says they currently produce and sell 15 CCR's a year and plan to be up to producing 40 per year by the end of 2005.
Please post if you've got more detail you want to contribute on anything! I'm not trying to tell you you're wrong or anything, just trying to justify what we have on the page right now. Since every entry tends to be up for debate, we usually try to discuss on the talk page before making big changes. TomTheHand 03:03, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)
Man oh man, check out the Aston Martin DB2/4. It had a hatchbackin 1953! Photos here. Anyone agree that this bumps the Austin A40 Farina? -- SFoskett 12:21, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)
Get thee to a newsstand and grab a copy of the March 2006 issue of Sports Car International and look at the letters page. "I know him!" You can all say it! Hahaha! This list has made the press! -- 216.49.153.98 01:52, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
1983 sounds a little early, Pc13. 1990 by Pioneer sounds a little more like it: http://www.pioneer.co.uk/uk/content/company/company/history.html -- Gabriel S. 2005-07-08
Mazda Cosmo, 1990 "Cosmo also featured the worlds first GPS Satelite Navigation system" [5] followed by the Toyota Soarer which had GPS and a twin navigation CD-ROM drive in the boot [6]
Removed blatantly incorrect entry for 1961 Jaguar Mark X. It was incorrectly stated as 1953 mm. When the correct figures are found, they will be far from the widest. -- Zaktoo 01:10, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Just wanting to throw a few things in here: The Bugatti Royale is listed even though 6 (or 7, depending on your source) were made. This is less than the 25 minimum decided on. Also, if it is eligible to stay for some reason, the chassis #41100 has a 14726cc straight 8 engine. Also, the biggest 6 cylinder pre-WWII engine I know of is a 21112cc (21 litre) Panhard et Levassor 50 CV from 1905. It is a straight 6. The biggest 4 is a 1912 Benz 82/200 with 21495cc from its 4 cylinders. -- Zaktoo 23:58, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Sources
Benz 82/200: DaimlerChrysler media archives http://archives.daimlerchrysler.com
Panhard et Levassor: Illustrated Motor Cars of the World (specifics to follow)
-- 196.2.127.9 09:41, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
May I suggest a slight rule change? 20 cars was an awful lot back in the days of coach building and would discount virtually every pre war Ferrari and Aston to name but 2 manufacturers. I would suggest being much broader pre-1939, say perhaps 5 examples to qualify and anything other one offs pre 1914. Just an idea. -- LiamE 15:30, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
The term "specific power" means the power obtained per volume, not power-to-weight ratio, which is what is being listed currently. Also, there it makes no sense at all to mix both naturally-aspirated and forced-induction types. I move again for 2 lists - one for NA engines, and one for forced-induction. And please, let's get either the heading fixed, or the figures amended appropriately. -- Zaktoo 00:04, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Mercedes-Benz Pullmans (S 500 & S 600 Pullman from 2000 and 600 Pullman from 1964) are both longer than the Cadillac, at 4085mm and 3900 mm respectively. I'd be surprised if the 2000 model Pullmans were produced in quantities smaller than 25; the 1964 variants were comfortably past the 100 mark. -- Zaktoo 00:23, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
How is the Hummer considered an "automobile"? It's a truck if anything.
The Maybach 62 is the heaviest proper car I know of post WWII; it weighs 2855 kg. -- Zaktoo 00:41, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, according to the company's website the ZiL-41047 is listed as "Mass of the loaded car, kg: 3550, Complete mass, kg: 4110" (the ZiL-41041 sedan is lighter with only 3160 kg). It also bumps the 1971-1976 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five sedan for the longest wheelbase (the Cadillac is still the longest in total). The ZiL wheelbase of 3880 mm beats the Caddilac's 3848 mm. // Liftarn
Unfortunately, there seems to be quite a few errors in this section.
-- Zaktoo 23:22, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone know what were the first production cars to have electronically-controlled fuel injection, variable valve timing and four-wheel steering? Here's what I've got so far - I'm not sure if they're the firsts, though:
-- Zilog Jones 20:56, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Putting aside the question of whether or not this is a meaningful sub-category, any particular reason why the Ford Taurus SHO 3.4L V8 shouldn't be listed here? My only guess is that it's because it was developed in a partnership with Yamaha. In my mind, though, it was an American company's engine, and in the days of globalization, that's good enough.
I don't see how the Honda Insight can be considered to be the first American hybrid, as it is, as far as I know, a Japanese car. Two Halves, who is confused
I very much doubt they have sold 20 of these bad boys yet but they are in production and you can buy them. And knowing the company it will be in production for a LONG time selling a few units each year. To the best of my knowledge Bristol are not given to overstatement. They currently quote 628/660bhp for the Fighter S. The higher figure is quoted as the power output 'at speed' as the engine performance is improved by ram effects. Link to their site here.
Should we wait till they have sold 20 to stick it in the list as they are VERY unlikely to quote any sales figures anyway?
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 8 |
![]() Archives |
---|
Here's a link on the subject of "first 4x4":
http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/who.html
Four wheel drive is almost as old as automobiles are. I would be fine with including one of the vehicles on the above link but I'd also like to indepedently verify the info. TomTheHand 21:45, May 23, 2005 (UTC)
Liftarn beat me to the punch :-) Thanks. However, the link for the Lohner-Porsche doesn't seem to mention 4WD. TomTheHand 13:44, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
Sorry to edit again immediately, but this link: http://www.carkeys.co.uk/features/classichistoric/2938.asp says that while a 4WD Lohner-Porsche was built in 1901, it seems to have been a one-off and the cars were in general 2WD. TomTheHand 13:46, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
Goodness, it's difficult to find information about these cars! TomTheHand 21:56, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
Let's open discussion back up on this. Here's what I'm seeing:
First 4WD: 1901 Lohner-Porsche. The Lohner-Porsche started production in 1898, but the one-off 4WD version was built in 1901.
First mechanical 4WD: 1902 Jacobus Spyker, which was also a one-off.
First production 4WD truck: Perhaps 1910 Caldwell Vale trucks, perhaps 1911 Four Wheel Drive Auto Co. trucks? I feel iffy about where to draw the line about what trucks to include. After all, the CJ-2 was a truck, but I imagine we'd include it if it qualified for a record... so what's considered too "trucky" for this list?
I've been looking at this page [ [2]] and it's pretty interesting. It seems that the first 4WD production car might be the Citroen 2CV Sahara, which featured 4WD and two engines(!) in 1958. There's plenty of information on these, and apparently 694 were built, so it could be our first 4WD car unless we find a better one. TomTheHand 12:55, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
The Radical Motorsports SR3 listed on the page is not street legal; horsepower figures for a SR3 modified to pass SVA approval are not available. An SR3 with SVA kit features a catalytic converter and different engine management. These changes would reduce horsepower output. Should the SR3 remain on the list in spite of not meeting any standards of legality, or should it be bumped to Honorable Mention?s
I mean no offense by this, but I'm unsure about the inclusion of units of measurement on the page. All of this information is redundant; it can be found in other articles if someone is interested in a particular unit of measurement. TomTheHand 12:34, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
This "Least specific power" thing is just funny. Now we're down to 22.5 hp per liter - anyone want to go lower? I'd love to see a "worst power-to-weight" item, too... -- SFoskett 18:39, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
An anon added the Ford RS200 Evolution to the list yesterday as the fastest 0-60. I was thinking that we need to review this. I wasn't aware of this car before, and it seems pretty cool. However, Googling around, I'm finding wildly differing performance figures. There seems to be a lot of myth surrounding this vehicle, and there's a big problem with people presenting performance figures of modified cars as stock figures. On the other hand, 24 were produced, so if we can find solid performance data, I believe this car can qualify for certain records.
So far what I've found is that a total of 200 Ford RS200's were produced. Most were equipped with a 250 hp 1.8L turbocharged four cylinder. Rally versions ran higher boost and seem to have been available at up to 450 hp. The Evolution version, of which 24 were produced, had a 2.1L four cylinder, for which power figures vary pretty wildly. I've seen figures from 500+ to 700+ but 550 hp seems to be the correct figure.
This link is interesting: http://www.preromanbritain.com/gwem/martbean/rs200/performa.htm It's the result of 0-60 and 0-100 testing on a modified 600+ hp RS200 Evolution. It shows 0-60 speeds of 3.07 seconds. I've seen this figure here: http://www.motorsm.com/Collection/Supercars.htm as "fastest road test," not fastest production car, and the dates match up (1994) so I think the former link's test is what the latter link is referring to.
The impression that I get is that the RS200 Evolution, stock, put out 550 hp. This makes it our winner for highest specific output. However, a modified RS200, tuned to over 600 hp, only managed 0-60 in 3.07 seconds. A stock one would be somewhat slower. That makes the 1.8 second claim pretty dubious.
I'm eager to hear more information if you guys know anything. TomTheHand 14:01, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
This is a good question. It reminds me of the Mosler MT900, of which 11 racing models have been sold, but it appears that no (or maybe one) street version was sold. Or the Mosler Intruder, where 4 were built but just one was sold. I'm inclined to say that 20 have to have been sold to private parties since the racing versions are often substantially different than the civvie ones in ways that affect performance. But I'm not sure. -- SFoskett 18:49, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
But none of the Evos had less than 550 hp. Some of them had more. Some of them had a LOT more. I've read that some claimed over 700hp. But the safest way to judge them is by the minimum. The minimmum is 550 hp. Right? There were 20 sold to the public for on-road use because that was what Group B rules required. Right? So isnt that good enough for inclusion here?
The Ariel Atom seems like it should break a couple of the records: http://www.ariel.us.com/
It is supposedly road-legal with indicators and lights (Top Gear, UK only?) and in production, but I don't have figures, so who-knows. (The Ariel (vehicle) article says 30/year, which is also a record for "Lowest-production Models," but there is no reference to where that number came from, so I'm even more skeptical on that.
-- Prometheus235 21:02, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
On a side note, why does it state that the Ariel may not be street-legal in the US? Is it of any relevance whatsoever? None of the other vehicles mentioned in that section are legal for use in the US anyway. -- 196.2.127.9 09:02, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone know if this car was actually produced, and in the requisite numbers? All I can find are news stories back from 2001 in which B. Engineering was saying they were planning to build 21 cars. The chassis were to be used for Bugatti EB110's but were bought up by B. Engineering upon Bugatti's bankruptcy. While it seems like a very cool and very impressive vehicle, it also sounds like yet another story of a company turning out a concept vehicle and then disappearing. TomTheHand 18:00, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
Just wanted to discuss points brought up by the user with IP 66.167.248.149. Please check this link http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=List_of_automotive_superlatives&diff=15727293&oldid=15725870 to see what I'm talking about.
To start off, welcome to the "List of automotive superlatives" page!
Now, on to addressing your specific concerns. First, in reference to most powerful engine, the supercharged Mercedes Benz engine is not eligible because... it's supercharged! :-) That particular category is for naturally aspirated engines. If we had a "more than 1000 units" requirement, I imagine the winner might be the Dodge Viper.
Second, in reference to vehicles not street legal in the US, we actually have significant debate going on on that very subject. What it boils down to so far is that as long as it's street legal in its intended market, it's ok for inclusion on the list. The place where the debate gets nasty is where we start to define "street legal." The UK, for example, allows "Single Vehicle Approval" to more lenient standards for low-volume vehicles. Are these vehicles fully street legal? We don't agree, so we mostly just yell at each other.
As for cars from the 1960's winning the 300-400 hp power to weight category, an important factor to keep in mind is that US vehicles before 1973 were measured according to gross, rather than net, horsepower. Net horsepower is generally ~20% less than gross horsepower, so modern cars are more powerful than they appear when compared to muscle cars.
And finally, on the subject of the Koenigsegg CCR, this page http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=102363 says they currently produce and sell 15 CCR's a year and plan to be up to producing 40 per year by the end of 2005.
Please post if you've got more detail you want to contribute on anything! I'm not trying to tell you you're wrong or anything, just trying to justify what we have on the page right now. Since every entry tends to be up for debate, we usually try to discuss on the talk page before making big changes. TomTheHand 03:03, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)
Man oh man, check out the Aston Martin DB2/4. It had a hatchbackin 1953! Photos here. Anyone agree that this bumps the Austin A40 Farina? -- SFoskett 12:21, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)
Get thee to a newsstand and grab a copy of the March 2006 issue of Sports Car International and look at the letters page. "I know him!" You can all say it! Hahaha! This list has made the press! -- 216.49.153.98 01:52, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
1983 sounds a little early, Pc13. 1990 by Pioneer sounds a little more like it: http://www.pioneer.co.uk/uk/content/company/company/history.html -- Gabriel S. 2005-07-08
Mazda Cosmo, 1990 "Cosmo also featured the worlds first GPS Satelite Navigation system" [5] followed by the Toyota Soarer which had GPS and a twin navigation CD-ROM drive in the boot [6]
Removed blatantly incorrect entry for 1961 Jaguar Mark X. It was incorrectly stated as 1953 mm. When the correct figures are found, they will be far from the widest. -- Zaktoo 01:10, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Just wanting to throw a few things in here: The Bugatti Royale is listed even though 6 (or 7, depending on your source) were made. This is less than the 25 minimum decided on. Also, if it is eligible to stay for some reason, the chassis #41100 has a 14726cc straight 8 engine. Also, the biggest 6 cylinder pre-WWII engine I know of is a 21112cc (21 litre) Panhard et Levassor 50 CV from 1905. It is a straight 6. The biggest 4 is a 1912 Benz 82/200 with 21495cc from its 4 cylinders. -- Zaktoo 23:58, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Sources
Benz 82/200: DaimlerChrysler media archives http://archives.daimlerchrysler.com
Panhard et Levassor: Illustrated Motor Cars of the World (specifics to follow)
-- 196.2.127.9 09:41, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
May I suggest a slight rule change? 20 cars was an awful lot back in the days of coach building and would discount virtually every pre war Ferrari and Aston to name but 2 manufacturers. I would suggest being much broader pre-1939, say perhaps 5 examples to qualify and anything other one offs pre 1914. Just an idea. -- LiamE 15:30, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
The term "specific power" means the power obtained per volume, not power-to-weight ratio, which is what is being listed currently. Also, there it makes no sense at all to mix both naturally-aspirated and forced-induction types. I move again for 2 lists - one for NA engines, and one for forced-induction. And please, let's get either the heading fixed, or the figures amended appropriately. -- Zaktoo 00:04, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Mercedes-Benz Pullmans (S 500 & S 600 Pullman from 2000 and 600 Pullman from 1964) are both longer than the Cadillac, at 4085mm and 3900 mm respectively. I'd be surprised if the 2000 model Pullmans were produced in quantities smaller than 25; the 1964 variants were comfortably past the 100 mark. -- Zaktoo 00:23, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
How is the Hummer considered an "automobile"? It's a truck if anything.
The Maybach 62 is the heaviest proper car I know of post WWII; it weighs 2855 kg. -- Zaktoo 00:41, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, according to the company's website the ZiL-41047 is listed as "Mass of the loaded car, kg: 3550, Complete mass, kg: 4110" (the ZiL-41041 sedan is lighter with only 3160 kg). It also bumps the 1971-1976 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five sedan for the longest wheelbase (the Cadillac is still the longest in total). The ZiL wheelbase of 3880 mm beats the Caddilac's 3848 mm. // Liftarn
Unfortunately, there seems to be quite a few errors in this section.
-- Zaktoo 23:22, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone know what were the first production cars to have electronically-controlled fuel injection, variable valve timing and four-wheel steering? Here's what I've got so far - I'm not sure if they're the firsts, though:
-- Zilog Jones 20:56, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Putting aside the question of whether or not this is a meaningful sub-category, any particular reason why the Ford Taurus SHO 3.4L V8 shouldn't be listed here? My only guess is that it's because it was developed in a partnership with Yamaha. In my mind, though, it was an American company's engine, and in the days of globalization, that's good enough.
I don't see how the Honda Insight can be considered to be the first American hybrid, as it is, as far as I know, a Japanese car. Two Halves, who is confused
I very much doubt they have sold 20 of these bad boys yet but they are in production and you can buy them. And knowing the company it will be in production for a LONG time selling a few units each year. To the best of my knowledge Bristol are not given to overstatement. They currently quote 628/660bhp for the Fighter S. The higher figure is quoted as the power output 'at speed' as the engine performance is improved by ram effects. Link to their site here.
Should we wait till they have sold 20 to stick it in the list as they are VERY unlikely to quote any sales figures anyway?