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I just made numerous changes to this list based upon conventions and facts verifiable in the Deseret Morning News 2008 Church Almanac pp. 60-62 and the May 2008 Ensign pp. 4-7, 130-131. While going through this page, I found several errors based on listings in these sources, and I have fixed these errors. Following the list of changes I have made, I will ask about two questions I had based on what I observed in going through this list. That said, first, here's the list of changes I made and why:
Now, the two questions.
First of all, what conventional rules are we following as far as listing the names? I only altered what I did because it seems to me an initial shouldn't have impact on an alphabetical listing, or because of what I understand on a limited basis about Spanish. Perhaps someone could clarify what is proper as far as Spanish conventional rules for listing the last name. This entails things like: Do initials count in determining where a person is placed on an alphabetical list? Take for example Carlos A. C. Villanova. Would his last name be considered "C. Villanova" or simply "Villanova"? Also, what impact, if any, does Da, da, De, or de have on an alphabetical list? It seems to me that if it stands alone, it would be under the first capital letter in the last name, hence "Climato C. A. de Almeida" should technically be under "A". On the other hand, if the last name is interrupted by a "de" then I'd imagine you'd list it under the first letter of the first part of the last name. In other words, "Alfredo Heliton de Lemos" goes under "H" because of the last name interrupted by a "de". This is the way it seems to me. Any English feedback from Spanish speakers?
Next, where is the verification for giving the first name of "Joshua" to the area seventy known only in official Church listings (as cited above) as "Subandriyo"? I would be fine leaving this as is if the "Joshua" part, which I've never seen until this list, could be verified. In every reference I was able to dig up, he is merely referred to as "Subandriyo," or in the case of being listed with official title, "Elder Subandriyo". So, can the first name of "Joshua" be verified for him?
I hope these questions and the changes I made haven't made me seem too pesky. Thoughts? -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 03:08, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Any particular reason this article uses the "area authorities" name instead of the current "area seventies"? I would think it would be best to use the current terminology. Good Ol’factory (talk) 09:57, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
I think the idea of the Manual Table of Contents is a great one. This will make each quorum tons easier for the reader to find. However, I noticed that with the heading at the beginning of each table and the fact that every area seventy has what quorum he's in beside his name that there are redundancies. For instance, at the beginning of the listing for Third Quorum Members, there's a bar on top of the table stating that this is the Third Quorum. But then, it goes on to list "Third Quorum" by the names of each member of that quorum. It occurred to me to wonder whether this might make it easier or harder for the reader. And so, I would propose either eliminating the new table heads at the beginning of each quorum and keeping the quorum by each member's name or eliminating the quorum by each member's name and keeping the table headings. I think, however, that I would be more in favor of just keeping the table headings, because that way, it's clear that the members in the Third Quorum are listed in the Third Quorum. Keeping them both seems unnecessarily repetitive, sort of like this post describing the problem is. However, I am open to hearing anyone who disagrees. If I can be shown how it would be profitable for WP purposes to keep both, I'd say let both of them stay. Until that time, I believe I would be more in favor of leaving the table heads but eliminating the other redundancies. -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 01:30, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Interestingly the Caribbean coordinating councils are now listed as reporting to the North America Southeast Area again - so that would mean that the Area Seventy would be in the Sixth Quorum. -- Trödel 15:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Let's get something established once and for all. It was agreed a long time ago that the CDOL was not a reputable source for WP purposes because of its' limited access. The only verifiable source I have been able to find has been the most recent Church Almanac. The 2010 edition lists the Caribbean Area Seventies as being in the Fourth Quorum. Accordingly, when I revise the list today, I will be putting the Caribbean Area in the 4th Quorum of the Seventy, where it belongs. If there are any other sources, list them here before changing it back. Thanks. -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 01:58, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Because of the recent changes in the Seventy as announced in General Conference, this list is no longer accurate. I would suggest updating it by using the 2010 Church Almanac page on Area Seventies, then updating from there by using President Uchtdorf's talk, which can be found at the link that follows: The Sustaining of Church Officers. The geographical location of those newly called area seventies can be found in the following Church newsroom page: New General Authorities Called, Primary General Presidency reorganized Hope this information helps! Happy editing! -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 19:24, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
Okay. So I brought the list up-to-date. As far as I know, the information is accurate and is based on the best sources available so far. However, there are errors highlighted in red that I can't fix. To do so is out of my area of WP expertise. Is there someone out there that can take a stab at solving these problems? Help! Thanks. -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 06:03, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks to those users who helped fix the problems on this page. As I mentioned in the topic above, for me to do so myself was out of my WP expertise. This page would not have been successfully brought up-to-date without your help. Thanks again, and keep up the great work! -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 23:26, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
The list is up-to-date as far as accurate information about who the current area seventies are. However, there is one important fact missing. Elder Alexandr N. Manzhos has been the Second Counselor in the Europe East Area since November 2009. And he will continue to serve in that capacity at least for the next year. See the following sources for verification of this fact: New presidency named for Europe East Area New area leadership assignments: 2010. Manzhos's assignment ought to be listed on this page. If someone could take care of this ASAP, that would be appreciated. Thanks. -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 20:59, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
I am starting this topic to weigh in on when the changes ought to be made for this page. While I agree we can't implemented ALL the changes until they are effective, some of the changes are effective now. I was concerned when I saw that some new Area Seventies sustained during last conference that had been added to the page before the last change were omitted now. I have no problem leaving the outgoing area seventies on this list until May 1, when their release is effective. I suggest we use two documents to bring this page up to date at the appropriate time. The Sustaining of Church Officers New General Authority Callings Announced. Those sustained should be added now. Those released should be deleted May 1, with the exception of those who were released to become General Authorities. In my opinion, these should be omitted now because they cannot be in two quorums at once. Thoughts? -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 21:49, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Fixed all the errors except the unrecognized words. Don't know how to fix that. An update to the 4th-8th Quorums will follow as time and circumstances allow. If anyone else can step in and fix these errors or help with the update, that would be more than welcome. -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 18:58, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
Dear Friends: I was looking at this page in comparison with the latest official information available in the Deseret News 2012 Church Almanac, and I was intrigued to note some discrepancies in this WP page compared to that. To bring the page up to date, the following changes have been made:
This page is current as of 2/13/2012. Any questions/comments? -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 06:17, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Several changes were made in Area Seventies during General Conference this weekend. I will be updating my personal lists of Area Seventies over the next day or so, and within a week, I will be able to update this page. I would welcome any help. I will be using the official list of changes from the newsroom release. To me, that is a better, more official source than what was listed for the changes that have already been made. I look forward to getting this list up-to-date once again. Thanks.-- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 13:17, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
The 7th and 8th Quorums are now updated. This list is accurate and current as of May 2012. But, as I said before, I made the changes now so we won't have to worry about making them later. And I made it clear in the article that this list is current as of May. Any feedback of any kind? -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 22:24, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
As per this article, Colin H. Bricknell is now Second Counselor in the Africa Southeast Area Presidency. I would enter this information into the article myself, but don't know exactly how to with the new format of the tables. So if someone could fix this ASAP, as this change was effective yesterday, I'd appreciate it. Thanks. -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 02:26, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
When the assignments for area leadership for August 1, 2013 were announced, I discovered that Bricknell no longer serves in the area presidency. Since it is now past August 1, I have removed the note and the reference. Comments? -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 06:34, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
I spent a good deal of time this weekend updating my personal current list of area seventies. I will use that list to update this page ASAP. In the meantime, if anyone would like to help with the revision, the information I worked from is in this article. I look forward to working with you all to get this page up-to-date. Thanks. -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 07:45, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
4th Quorum updated. Will try to finish the rest by tonight. -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 02:36, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
6th Quorum updated. Two left! Will finish tonight! -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 04:21, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
8th Quorum updated. The only problem now is that the page is backwards, with the references on the top and the area seventies listed at the bottom of the page. Please help! Thanks. -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 07:07, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
It seems kind of a loss to remove people when they are released from this list and then let any mention of them vanish. It would seem to me worthwhile to have a list of former area seventies that gives the years they served. Do we have anything like that at present, or will I have to make it all from scratch if I want to have it? John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:56, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
It seems that above the last discussion of the Caribbean Area tended toward putting it in the 6th Quorum. However the Deseret News Church Almanc, 2010 Edition, p. 80 clearly places the Caribbean Area in the 4th Quorum. This is also the implication of this [1] April 27, 2013 LDS Church News Article. To make things more confusing Gamiette had been listed in the 3rd Quoru, I think this is because he is from France. Of course he is from France in a way similar to how Joseph Ah Quin is from the United States. OK, those of us who are really odd are still waiting for Ah Quin to be called as an area seventy, but we can hope, right? Ah Quin is most noted in Mormon culture for having played "Moki" in Johnny Lingo, although he is also a noted musician with long ties to BYU Hawaii, a talent which he did not get to use in his playing of the role of Moki. At first I was going to use Naomi Kahoilua, who played Mahana as my example, but since she has lived in Washington state for almost four decades, I decided she would not be a good example. Although the fact that she has a spouse who is a native of the metropole is like Gamiette, since Sister Gamiette was born in France (we learn that from [2] the Feb. 7, 2009 announcment that Gamiette and his wife woulod preside over a mission (from this [3] MArch 7, 2009 article we learn Gamiette was assigned to head the West Indies mission, which is where he lived, which is a fairly rare occurance, although not unprecedented for one mission countires, I think the last three Haitian mission presidents were Haitians called to serve there, although in Tonga they managed to avoid calling a resident most recently by calling a Tongan expatriate in Alaska, along with his Euro-American wife, but I digress). I guess even if Joseph Ah Quinn was called as an Area Seventy it would not cause the confusion that we are dealing with here, and M. Brent Wilson's call (that is Naomi Kahoilua (Wilson)'s husband), if it were to occur would create even less confusion. The Wilson's being in Washington State present no ambiguity, and Hawaii is in the North America West Area so it is assigned with the rest of the US. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:17, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Ruben Acosta, Daniel W. Jones, the two Lopez links and the Thomson link all go to articles on people other than the ones who are serving as Areas Seventies. I am not sure how to either unlink them or fix the links. It should be done though. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:30, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
I incorporated onto this page those releases and sustainings that were presented in General Conference on Saturday. There were 2 releases and 3 new area seventies to add. I think I have all the information input onto this page properly. Please post here with any feedback you might have. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 04:02, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
Hello, all. I know I'm a month late, but I finally began updating this list based on the releases and sustainings for April 2015. The releases were effective as of May 1, so this list will be updated to reflect those serving at that date. 3rd Quorum done! Five more to go! -- Jgstokes ( talk) 05:57, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
5th and 6th Quorum completed! Two more to go! -- Jgstokes ( talk) 08:45, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
Is someone going to add the new area authorities to the list - I'm not sure exactly how to do it https://www.lds.org/church/news/new-area-seventies-called-during-april-2016-general-conference?lang=eng - thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.68.68.66 ( talk) 13:19, 26 April 2016 (UTC) Also here are the releases https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/04/the-sustaining-of-church-officers?lang=eng — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.68.68.66 ( talk) 13:21, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
With my apologies, I will be trying to get this done before the end of the week. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 05:28, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
Hello again, everyone! I have begun the preliminary process of updating this page prior to the upcoming General Conference. I will continue to work on it as I have time, but hope to have it completely updated within the next week or less. Post here with any questions on these changes. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 07:46, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
Hello again, everyone! In a prior discussion on the threads of this page, a consensus was established to capitalize the word "Quorum" in each section about the formation of those Quorums. Accordingly, yesterday, as a result of the announced creation of four new Quorums, I used the capitalized case for the references to the newest Quorums. When I had capitalized "Quorums" in that newest section in conformity to styllistic consistencies in the earlier sections, the capital case was exclusively removed from just the newest section by ChristensenMJ. So as a result of his good-faith efforts to adhere to Wikipedia guidelines, I wanted to put the matter of whether or not to capitalize "Quorum" in this article up for discussion again. I will be happy to get on board with and support whatever the consensus decides on the matter, but it seems to me to be a bad idea to capitalize the word through most of the article but to not do so in a single section thereof. Anyone who has any thoughts on that may feel free to weigh in here. Thanks in advance to all who will discuss this question. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 20:05, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
ChristensenMJ, I hope you know that I appreciate your ongoing good faith efforts in articles related to the Church. I understand your position on this issue. But I look at this situation with a few things in mind. References to members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, whether made here on Wikipedia, or seen anywhere else, use the capital Q. References in other articles to members of the First and Second Quorums of the Seventy also use the capital case. And in sources that cover the service of area seventies, in listing their Quorum affiliations where the listing of that affiliation has been applicable in such references, Quorum appears to be consistently capitalized there as well. Styllistic consistency is a very good reason to keep the word capitalized. I also wanted to let you know that I fully agree that consensus should not be the sole reason or even the most important reason to do things a certain way on Wikipedia. It might perhaps be interesting to find out if any Church sources in any way have used the lower case in reference to the word. Thanks for weighing in here on this issue. Please keep up the great work. I appreciate all your efforts here. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 09:39, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
I just did revisions in which I removed Massimo de Feo and donald Deschler from the list. Both were released as area seventies back in 2016. I removed all released in October 2020, and several released earlier in 2020, 2019 and 2018. There may still be some other hold outs on the list, and I am not sure all 2020 additions are on the list. I added the 4 from October 2020 but am not sure about April 2020 additions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Johnpacklambert
Let me just weigh in here: For the better part of the last two years, I have been working on an overhauled update of this page as time and circumstances have allowed. I have had other things to deal with within that time, on Wikipedia, off Wikipedia, and with life in general. Those updates are continuously in progress, and I am working on them as much as I can right now. I have a fully updated list available to me of the current membership of each quorum, and have been transferring that information to a separate document following the formats and tmeplates here as I can. So it's a work in progress. I hope to have that overhaul to this page posted here by or before the end of this year, but based on current circumstances, both those within and outside of my control, that's just what I'm hoping for. But I did want to mention here that that process is in progress, it's just slow-going. Thanks. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 06:07, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
Thank you, Johnpacklambert, for initiating the process of making changes. You are more than welcome to continue working on that process. However, one big reason the updates have taken me so long to work on personally is that I've had to resolve discrepancies in the Church's list before I can ensure the accuracy of my own. There are a couple of examples that spring to mind. When Daniel P. Hall served as an area seventy, the Church noted he was doing so while residing in one of the Africa Areas of the Church. Although that waws true at the initial time of his call, he later relocated to Great Britain for the remainder of his service, and based on the announcement of the additional quorums of the seventy, was noted on the Church list as belonging to the Third Quorum when his geographic location actually placed him in the Seventh Quorum. Another example: Guillermo A. Alvarez was called as an area seventy in April of last year, as verified here, and his geographic location (Guatemala) puts him in the Central America Area, which falls under the Sixth Quorum. But if you look at the listed membership shown for that Quorum on the Church's website, Guillermo A. Alvarez does not appear on that list. I also have some information on some other area seventies who, having moved with their families to a different part of the world, are in a different Quorum. And in some of those cases, the Church's list is outdated, though there is proof elsewhere to verify the changes. It's reconciling all of those differences and keeping the lists up to date, all while trying to add or remove individeuals as the list has changed over time, that has made the project impossobile to fully update in an expedited manner. With the information I have on hand, I am making those updates, but, as mentioned, it is a slow process. If you'd like to do so, feel free to continue to provide updates to this page based on the Church's list. But whenever I can get those updates completed on my end, my hope is to copy the entire updated list from my personal file and paste it on this page. Given your attempts to update the list, I will try to move up and accelerate the process of the updates on my end, and maybe, between the two of us, we can have this list updated sooner rather than later. Thanks again. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 21:44, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
So in May 2020 there were 4 more quorums created. This list is still organizing people by the pre-2020 assignments. Here [4] is the updated list of quorum members and assignments. we really need to add these to the list. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:39, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
The age listed should be the current age, correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Johnpacklambert ( talk • contribs)
I appreciate the efforts and intent there, Johnpacklambert, but unless we find exact birthdates for every name on the list, or unless there is a way to use any other uniform system for the ages listed, the age noted as of the call date appears to be the best metric. Unfortunately, having updated the list of members, and while trying to resolve the errors relating to the latest updates, I personally don't have the time or capability to try and track down the exact birth dates for each area seventy, assuming there was a way to do so. In either case, an earlier consensus that is confirmed from one of the threads in the archives was to use the age as of the call date in the table, so it would take a new consensus, I believe, to use any other method, including in the case of area seventies where the exact date is known vs. area seventies whose exact birth date is not known and cannot be found. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 20:15, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
Most of these people lack articles. Still the linking probably makes sense since Vai Sikahema, Henry J. Eyring, Gordon H. Smith, Art Rascon, Richard N. Holzappfel and Kevnin J. Worthen are all working links. The only one who might not be notable is Holzapfel, but with the amount of works he has published I think he is. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:47, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
There are also false links to Marcos Cabral (the linked person died in 1903), Robert T. Smith (the linked person died in 1995), Robert Gordon (this links to a disambiguation page, but I do not believe any are correct), Edgar Flores (the same), Roberto Gonzalez (also a disambiguation page), Virgilio Gonzalez (the linked person is the wrong one) and Jose Hernandez (the link is clearly wrong). John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:54, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
Gless Burgess I have no strong evidence that it is the right person but I cannot rule it out. The Glenn Burgess who is an area authroity is a New Zealand police officer. The linked article is about an Australian rugby player. They are similar in age however this link [5] from early 2005 says that the future Elder Burgess was 40 then, the Wikipedia article suggests that the rugby player was 41 then. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:54, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
I have to admit I always feel bad about deleting entries from an article. I was wondering if we could create a list of past area seventies or if that would be too difficult. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:44, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
Hello again, everyone! Within this last week, as verified in the comments of the last two topics on this page, I have taken steps to bring this page up-to-date with the latest changes in area seventies. I was able to successfully make the updates themselves, as I also mentioned. But I ran into a problem while adding the information for the Eleventh and Twelfth Quorums of the Seventy. For those looking at this article, if they look at those two Quorums, under the column marked "Quorum" is a three-letter phrase, "Unk". I tried to resolve that issue and get the words "Eleventh" and "Twelfth" to properly appear, but to no avail. Due to my failure to adequately fix this issue, I put in a request for assistance. The responding editor let me know that the issue was that the area seventy template was not programmed to accept any Quorum numeration above 10, which is why the "Unk" was showing up for each of the members of the last two Quorums.
Unless someone reading this has the know-how and patience to change the template parameters to allow any number of Quorums 12 or above, the editor who responded to my request suggested that we instead consider ditching the complex template entirely in favor of using a simpler method for this list going forward. In that respect, I did have at least one suggestion: Two other Wikipedia articles showing the currently-serving general authorities and List of general officers of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do utilize some templates, but at the bottom of the page. In-article, tables have been the preferred method in both of those articles for a long time now. I think the easiest thing would probably be utilizing sortable tables for this information, which would allow us to have either one sortable table for all area seventies or else several sortable tables if we wanted to do separate ones for each of the current Quorums. Either way, the tables would negate the needs for the templates, and might be easier to maintain and alter when that need rearises.
So that is my proposal: to switch the current system using the Wikipedia area seventy template (which has been fraught with issues for a while) to a system where one table or multiple tables are utilized. I wanted to ensure before I go ahead and set something like that up that anyone who had any objections, a way to fix the current problem, or a different suggestion has time to weigh in. And if the consensus is not in favor of my proposal, I think I could get on board with any other reasonable suggestion that might be presented here. Thoughts? -- Jgstokes ( talk) 09:32, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
For the information of all who may read this page, I ran some troubleshooting on the parameters of the existing template, and I was able to extend those parameters to allow the Eleventh and Twelfth Quorums to be properly listed. I'm going to preset additional parameters for those Quorums in case the number expands again at any point in the future so that it will be ready whenever that might be necessary. So I think that we won't shake up the status quo, unless anyone reading about the fix I've engineered feels that the page restructuring is still necessary. Hope that's okay. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 09:03, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
Hello again, everyone! This morning, as reported by the Newsroom and [6], D. Todd Christofferson represented the First Presidency in presenting a list of 77 new area seventies. After the names were presented, Russell M. Nelson stood and called for a sustaining vote on the list of names. Per the sources, sustaining new area seventies by name during the leadership sessions will be the "new normal", and when the new changes in Church leadership are presented as usual during General Conference, there will be a call for a sustaining vote for every name on the list as a whole, without that full list being read again over the pulpit. Is that something sufficiently noteworthy to mention here? If so, what si the best way to do that? Parenthetically, I should add that I plan on updating my personal files subsequent to updating this page with the new information as soon as I see specifically which area seventies are released on Saturday. Thanks in advance for any feedback on this.-- Jgstokes ( talk) 23:56, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
@ Jgstokes - I get 326 when I count the names on this list. If the count is 321 we need to find the 5 that have been released :) -- Trödel 22:23, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
Hello again, everyone! I am requesting comments here on whether or not it would be a good idea to reformat this page. I like that we have the names, dates of call, ages and locations, but I am wondering if there would be a way to simplify the page formatting (in much the same way that @ Dmm1169 did with this page. I am wondering how feasible it would be to not only list names, quorums, ages at dates of call, and current locations (where known) but also to add information about the specific areas within which those on this list are assigned. I have put together a document showing the breakdown of area seventies by quorum within each area, and another showing an alphabetical list of area seventies by quorum. So the questions to consider is, would a format change for the page be possible to improve page navigation and reader experience? Would it be possible, along with reformatting, to add other fields to each area seventy? And would having more information (such as the area to which each is assigned) be helpful or just more cumbersome? @Dmm1169, given your excellent work on overhauling the List of temples page, I'd be particularly interested in your thoughts on this, but anyone else is, as always, welcome to weigh in as well. I look forward to the discussion of these questions. Jgstokes ( talk) 23:59, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
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I just made numerous changes to this list based upon conventions and facts verifiable in the Deseret Morning News 2008 Church Almanac pp. 60-62 and the May 2008 Ensign pp. 4-7, 130-131. While going through this page, I found several errors based on listings in these sources, and I have fixed these errors. Following the list of changes I have made, I will ask about two questions I had based on what I observed in going through this list. That said, first, here's the list of changes I made and why:
Now, the two questions.
First of all, what conventional rules are we following as far as listing the names? I only altered what I did because it seems to me an initial shouldn't have impact on an alphabetical listing, or because of what I understand on a limited basis about Spanish. Perhaps someone could clarify what is proper as far as Spanish conventional rules for listing the last name. This entails things like: Do initials count in determining where a person is placed on an alphabetical list? Take for example Carlos A. C. Villanova. Would his last name be considered "C. Villanova" or simply "Villanova"? Also, what impact, if any, does Da, da, De, or de have on an alphabetical list? It seems to me that if it stands alone, it would be under the first capital letter in the last name, hence "Climato C. A. de Almeida" should technically be under "A". On the other hand, if the last name is interrupted by a "de" then I'd imagine you'd list it under the first letter of the first part of the last name. In other words, "Alfredo Heliton de Lemos" goes under "H" because of the last name interrupted by a "de". This is the way it seems to me. Any English feedback from Spanish speakers?
Next, where is the verification for giving the first name of "Joshua" to the area seventy known only in official Church listings (as cited above) as "Subandriyo"? I would be fine leaving this as is if the "Joshua" part, which I've never seen until this list, could be verified. In every reference I was able to dig up, he is merely referred to as "Subandriyo," or in the case of being listed with official title, "Elder Subandriyo". So, can the first name of "Joshua" be verified for him?
I hope these questions and the changes I made haven't made me seem too pesky. Thoughts? -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 03:08, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Any particular reason this article uses the "area authorities" name instead of the current "area seventies"? I would think it would be best to use the current terminology. Good Ol’factory (talk) 09:57, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
I think the idea of the Manual Table of Contents is a great one. This will make each quorum tons easier for the reader to find. However, I noticed that with the heading at the beginning of each table and the fact that every area seventy has what quorum he's in beside his name that there are redundancies. For instance, at the beginning of the listing for Third Quorum Members, there's a bar on top of the table stating that this is the Third Quorum. But then, it goes on to list "Third Quorum" by the names of each member of that quorum. It occurred to me to wonder whether this might make it easier or harder for the reader. And so, I would propose either eliminating the new table heads at the beginning of each quorum and keeping the quorum by each member's name or eliminating the quorum by each member's name and keeping the table headings. I think, however, that I would be more in favor of just keeping the table headings, because that way, it's clear that the members in the Third Quorum are listed in the Third Quorum. Keeping them both seems unnecessarily repetitive, sort of like this post describing the problem is. However, I am open to hearing anyone who disagrees. If I can be shown how it would be profitable for WP purposes to keep both, I'd say let both of them stay. Until that time, I believe I would be more in favor of leaving the table heads but eliminating the other redundancies. -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 01:30, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Interestingly the Caribbean coordinating councils are now listed as reporting to the North America Southeast Area again - so that would mean that the Area Seventy would be in the Sixth Quorum. -- Trödel 15:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Let's get something established once and for all. It was agreed a long time ago that the CDOL was not a reputable source for WP purposes because of its' limited access. The only verifiable source I have been able to find has been the most recent Church Almanac. The 2010 edition lists the Caribbean Area Seventies as being in the Fourth Quorum. Accordingly, when I revise the list today, I will be putting the Caribbean Area in the 4th Quorum of the Seventy, where it belongs. If there are any other sources, list them here before changing it back. Thanks. -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 01:58, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Because of the recent changes in the Seventy as announced in General Conference, this list is no longer accurate. I would suggest updating it by using the 2010 Church Almanac page on Area Seventies, then updating from there by using President Uchtdorf's talk, which can be found at the link that follows: The Sustaining of Church Officers. The geographical location of those newly called area seventies can be found in the following Church newsroom page: New General Authorities Called, Primary General Presidency reorganized Hope this information helps! Happy editing! -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 19:24, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
Okay. So I brought the list up-to-date. As far as I know, the information is accurate and is based on the best sources available so far. However, there are errors highlighted in red that I can't fix. To do so is out of my area of WP expertise. Is there someone out there that can take a stab at solving these problems? Help! Thanks. -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 06:03, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks to those users who helped fix the problems on this page. As I mentioned in the topic above, for me to do so myself was out of my WP expertise. This page would not have been successfully brought up-to-date without your help. Thanks again, and keep up the great work! -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 23:26, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
The list is up-to-date as far as accurate information about who the current area seventies are. However, there is one important fact missing. Elder Alexandr N. Manzhos has been the Second Counselor in the Europe East Area since November 2009. And he will continue to serve in that capacity at least for the next year. See the following sources for verification of this fact: New presidency named for Europe East Area New area leadership assignments: 2010. Manzhos's assignment ought to be listed on this page. If someone could take care of this ASAP, that would be appreciated. Thanks. -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 20:59, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
I am starting this topic to weigh in on when the changes ought to be made for this page. While I agree we can't implemented ALL the changes until they are effective, some of the changes are effective now. I was concerned when I saw that some new Area Seventies sustained during last conference that had been added to the page before the last change were omitted now. I have no problem leaving the outgoing area seventies on this list until May 1, when their release is effective. I suggest we use two documents to bring this page up to date at the appropriate time. The Sustaining of Church Officers New General Authority Callings Announced. Those sustained should be added now. Those released should be deleted May 1, with the exception of those who were released to become General Authorities. In my opinion, these should be omitted now because they cannot be in two quorums at once. Thoughts? -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 21:49, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Fixed all the errors except the unrecognized words. Don't know how to fix that. An update to the 4th-8th Quorums will follow as time and circumstances allow. If anyone else can step in and fix these errors or help with the update, that would be more than welcome. -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 18:58, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
Dear Friends: I was looking at this page in comparison with the latest official information available in the Deseret News 2012 Church Almanac, and I was intrigued to note some discrepancies in this WP page compared to that. To bring the page up to date, the following changes have been made:
This page is current as of 2/13/2012. Any questions/comments? -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 06:17, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Several changes were made in Area Seventies during General Conference this weekend. I will be updating my personal lists of Area Seventies over the next day or so, and within a week, I will be able to update this page. I would welcome any help. I will be using the official list of changes from the newsroom release. To me, that is a better, more official source than what was listed for the changes that have already been made. I look forward to getting this list up-to-date once again. Thanks.-- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 13:17, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
The 7th and 8th Quorums are now updated. This list is accurate and current as of May 2012. But, as I said before, I made the changes now so we won't have to worry about making them later. And I made it clear in the article that this list is current as of May. Any feedback of any kind? -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 22:24, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
As per this article, Colin H. Bricknell is now Second Counselor in the Africa Southeast Area Presidency. I would enter this information into the article myself, but don't know exactly how to with the new format of the tables. So if someone could fix this ASAP, as this change was effective yesterday, I'd appreciate it. Thanks. -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 02:26, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
When the assignments for area leadership for August 1, 2013 were announced, I discovered that Bricknell no longer serves in the area presidency. Since it is now past August 1, I have removed the note and the reference. Comments? -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 06:34, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
I spent a good deal of time this weekend updating my personal current list of area seventies. I will use that list to update this page ASAP. In the meantime, if anyone would like to help with the revision, the information I worked from is in this article. I look forward to working with you all to get this page up-to-date. Thanks. -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 07:45, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
4th Quorum updated. Will try to finish the rest by tonight. -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 02:36, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
6th Quorum updated. Two left! Will finish tonight! -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 04:21, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
8th Quorum updated. The only problem now is that the page is backwards, with the references on the top and the area seventies listed at the bottom of the page. Please help! Thanks. -- Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable ( talk) 07:07, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
It seems kind of a loss to remove people when they are released from this list and then let any mention of them vanish. It would seem to me worthwhile to have a list of former area seventies that gives the years they served. Do we have anything like that at present, or will I have to make it all from scratch if I want to have it? John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:56, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
It seems that above the last discussion of the Caribbean Area tended toward putting it in the 6th Quorum. However the Deseret News Church Almanc, 2010 Edition, p. 80 clearly places the Caribbean Area in the 4th Quorum. This is also the implication of this [1] April 27, 2013 LDS Church News Article. To make things more confusing Gamiette had been listed in the 3rd Quoru, I think this is because he is from France. Of course he is from France in a way similar to how Joseph Ah Quin is from the United States. OK, those of us who are really odd are still waiting for Ah Quin to be called as an area seventy, but we can hope, right? Ah Quin is most noted in Mormon culture for having played "Moki" in Johnny Lingo, although he is also a noted musician with long ties to BYU Hawaii, a talent which he did not get to use in his playing of the role of Moki. At first I was going to use Naomi Kahoilua, who played Mahana as my example, but since she has lived in Washington state for almost four decades, I decided she would not be a good example. Although the fact that she has a spouse who is a native of the metropole is like Gamiette, since Sister Gamiette was born in France (we learn that from [2] the Feb. 7, 2009 announcment that Gamiette and his wife woulod preside over a mission (from this [3] MArch 7, 2009 article we learn Gamiette was assigned to head the West Indies mission, which is where he lived, which is a fairly rare occurance, although not unprecedented for one mission countires, I think the last three Haitian mission presidents were Haitians called to serve there, although in Tonga they managed to avoid calling a resident most recently by calling a Tongan expatriate in Alaska, along with his Euro-American wife, but I digress). I guess even if Joseph Ah Quinn was called as an Area Seventy it would not cause the confusion that we are dealing with here, and M. Brent Wilson's call (that is Naomi Kahoilua (Wilson)'s husband), if it were to occur would create even less confusion. The Wilson's being in Washington State present no ambiguity, and Hawaii is in the North America West Area so it is assigned with the rest of the US. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:17, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Ruben Acosta, Daniel W. Jones, the two Lopez links and the Thomson link all go to articles on people other than the ones who are serving as Areas Seventies. I am not sure how to either unlink them or fix the links. It should be done though. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:30, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
I incorporated onto this page those releases and sustainings that were presented in General Conference on Saturday. There were 2 releases and 3 new area seventies to add. I think I have all the information input onto this page properly. Please post here with any feedback you might have. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 04:02, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
Hello, all. I know I'm a month late, but I finally began updating this list based on the releases and sustainings for April 2015. The releases were effective as of May 1, so this list will be updated to reflect those serving at that date. 3rd Quorum done! Five more to go! -- Jgstokes ( talk) 05:57, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
5th and 6th Quorum completed! Two more to go! -- Jgstokes ( talk) 08:45, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
Is someone going to add the new area authorities to the list - I'm not sure exactly how to do it https://www.lds.org/church/news/new-area-seventies-called-during-april-2016-general-conference?lang=eng - thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.68.68.66 ( talk) 13:19, 26 April 2016 (UTC) Also here are the releases https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/04/the-sustaining-of-church-officers?lang=eng — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.68.68.66 ( talk) 13:21, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
With my apologies, I will be trying to get this done before the end of the week. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 05:28, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
Hello again, everyone! I have begun the preliminary process of updating this page prior to the upcoming General Conference. I will continue to work on it as I have time, but hope to have it completely updated within the next week or less. Post here with any questions on these changes. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 07:46, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
Hello again, everyone! In a prior discussion on the threads of this page, a consensus was established to capitalize the word "Quorum" in each section about the formation of those Quorums. Accordingly, yesterday, as a result of the announced creation of four new Quorums, I used the capitalized case for the references to the newest Quorums. When I had capitalized "Quorums" in that newest section in conformity to styllistic consistencies in the earlier sections, the capital case was exclusively removed from just the newest section by ChristensenMJ. So as a result of his good-faith efforts to adhere to Wikipedia guidelines, I wanted to put the matter of whether or not to capitalize "Quorum" in this article up for discussion again. I will be happy to get on board with and support whatever the consensus decides on the matter, but it seems to me to be a bad idea to capitalize the word through most of the article but to not do so in a single section thereof. Anyone who has any thoughts on that may feel free to weigh in here. Thanks in advance to all who will discuss this question. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 20:05, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
ChristensenMJ, I hope you know that I appreciate your ongoing good faith efforts in articles related to the Church. I understand your position on this issue. But I look at this situation with a few things in mind. References to members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, whether made here on Wikipedia, or seen anywhere else, use the capital Q. References in other articles to members of the First and Second Quorums of the Seventy also use the capital case. And in sources that cover the service of area seventies, in listing their Quorum affiliations where the listing of that affiliation has been applicable in such references, Quorum appears to be consistently capitalized there as well. Styllistic consistency is a very good reason to keep the word capitalized. I also wanted to let you know that I fully agree that consensus should not be the sole reason or even the most important reason to do things a certain way on Wikipedia. It might perhaps be interesting to find out if any Church sources in any way have used the lower case in reference to the word. Thanks for weighing in here on this issue. Please keep up the great work. I appreciate all your efforts here. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 09:39, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
I just did revisions in which I removed Massimo de Feo and donald Deschler from the list. Both were released as area seventies back in 2016. I removed all released in October 2020, and several released earlier in 2020, 2019 and 2018. There may still be some other hold outs on the list, and I am not sure all 2020 additions are on the list. I added the 4 from October 2020 but am not sure about April 2020 additions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Johnpacklambert
Let me just weigh in here: For the better part of the last two years, I have been working on an overhauled update of this page as time and circumstances have allowed. I have had other things to deal with within that time, on Wikipedia, off Wikipedia, and with life in general. Those updates are continuously in progress, and I am working on them as much as I can right now. I have a fully updated list available to me of the current membership of each quorum, and have been transferring that information to a separate document following the formats and tmeplates here as I can. So it's a work in progress. I hope to have that overhaul to this page posted here by or before the end of this year, but based on current circumstances, both those within and outside of my control, that's just what I'm hoping for. But I did want to mention here that that process is in progress, it's just slow-going. Thanks. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 06:07, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
Thank you, Johnpacklambert, for initiating the process of making changes. You are more than welcome to continue working on that process. However, one big reason the updates have taken me so long to work on personally is that I've had to resolve discrepancies in the Church's list before I can ensure the accuracy of my own. There are a couple of examples that spring to mind. When Daniel P. Hall served as an area seventy, the Church noted he was doing so while residing in one of the Africa Areas of the Church. Although that waws true at the initial time of his call, he later relocated to Great Britain for the remainder of his service, and based on the announcement of the additional quorums of the seventy, was noted on the Church list as belonging to the Third Quorum when his geographic location actually placed him in the Seventh Quorum. Another example: Guillermo A. Alvarez was called as an area seventy in April of last year, as verified here, and his geographic location (Guatemala) puts him in the Central America Area, which falls under the Sixth Quorum. But if you look at the listed membership shown for that Quorum on the Church's website, Guillermo A. Alvarez does not appear on that list. I also have some information on some other area seventies who, having moved with their families to a different part of the world, are in a different Quorum. And in some of those cases, the Church's list is outdated, though there is proof elsewhere to verify the changes. It's reconciling all of those differences and keeping the lists up to date, all while trying to add or remove individeuals as the list has changed over time, that has made the project impossobile to fully update in an expedited manner. With the information I have on hand, I am making those updates, but, as mentioned, it is a slow process. If you'd like to do so, feel free to continue to provide updates to this page based on the Church's list. But whenever I can get those updates completed on my end, my hope is to copy the entire updated list from my personal file and paste it on this page. Given your attempts to update the list, I will try to move up and accelerate the process of the updates on my end, and maybe, between the two of us, we can have this list updated sooner rather than later. Thanks again. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 21:44, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
So in May 2020 there were 4 more quorums created. This list is still organizing people by the pre-2020 assignments. Here [4] is the updated list of quorum members and assignments. we really need to add these to the list. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:39, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
The age listed should be the current age, correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Johnpacklambert ( talk • contribs)
I appreciate the efforts and intent there, Johnpacklambert, but unless we find exact birthdates for every name on the list, or unless there is a way to use any other uniform system for the ages listed, the age noted as of the call date appears to be the best metric. Unfortunately, having updated the list of members, and while trying to resolve the errors relating to the latest updates, I personally don't have the time or capability to try and track down the exact birth dates for each area seventy, assuming there was a way to do so. In either case, an earlier consensus that is confirmed from one of the threads in the archives was to use the age as of the call date in the table, so it would take a new consensus, I believe, to use any other method, including in the case of area seventies where the exact date is known vs. area seventies whose exact birth date is not known and cannot be found. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 20:15, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
Most of these people lack articles. Still the linking probably makes sense since Vai Sikahema, Henry J. Eyring, Gordon H. Smith, Art Rascon, Richard N. Holzappfel and Kevnin J. Worthen are all working links. The only one who might not be notable is Holzapfel, but with the amount of works he has published I think he is. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:47, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
There are also false links to Marcos Cabral (the linked person died in 1903), Robert T. Smith (the linked person died in 1995), Robert Gordon (this links to a disambiguation page, but I do not believe any are correct), Edgar Flores (the same), Roberto Gonzalez (also a disambiguation page), Virgilio Gonzalez (the linked person is the wrong one) and Jose Hernandez (the link is clearly wrong). John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:54, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
Gless Burgess I have no strong evidence that it is the right person but I cannot rule it out. The Glenn Burgess who is an area authroity is a New Zealand police officer. The linked article is about an Australian rugby player. They are similar in age however this link [5] from early 2005 says that the future Elder Burgess was 40 then, the Wikipedia article suggests that the rugby player was 41 then. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:54, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
I have to admit I always feel bad about deleting entries from an article. I was wondering if we could create a list of past area seventies or if that would be too difficult. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:44, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
Hello again, everyone! Within this last week, as verified in the comments of the last two topics on this page, I have taken steps to bring this page up-to-date with the latest changes in area seventies. I was able to successfully make the updates themselves, as I also mentioned. But I ran into a problem while adding the information for the Eleventh and Twelfth Quorums of the Seventy. For those looking at this article, if they look at those two Quorums, under the column marked "Quorum" is a three-letter phrase, "Unk". I tried to resolve that issue and get the words "Eleventh" and "Twelfth" to properly appear, but to no avail. Due to my failure to adequately fix this issue, I put in a request for assistance. The responding editor let me know that the issue was that the area seventy template was not programmed to accept any Quorum numeration above 10, which is why the "Unk" was showing up for each of the members of the last two Quorums.
Unless someone reading this has the know-how and patience to change the template parameters to allow any number of Quorums 12 or above, the editor who responded to my request suggested that we instead consider ditching the complex template entirely in favor of using a simpler method for this list going forward. In that respect, I did have at least one suggestion: Two other Wikipedia articles showing the currently-serving general authorities and List of general officers of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do utilize some templates, but at the bottom of the page. In-article, tables have been the preferred method in both of those articles for a long time now. I think the easiest thing would probably be utilizing sortable tables for this information, which would allow us to have either one sortable table for all area seventies or else several sortable tables if we wanted to do separate ones for each of the current Quorums. Either way, the tables would negate the needs for the templates, and might be easier to maintain and alter when that need rearises.
So that is my proposal: to switch the current system using the Wikipedia area seventy template (which has been fraught with issues for a while) to a system where one table or multiple tables are utilized. I wanted to ensure before I go ahead and set something like that up that anyone who had any objections, a way to fix the current problem, or a different suggestion has time to weigh in. And if the consensus is not in favor of my proposal, I think I could get on board with any other reasonable suggestion that might be presented here. Thoughts? -- Jgstokes ( talk) 09:32, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
For the information of all who may read this page, I ran some troubleshooting on the parameters of the existing template, and I was able to extend those parameters to allow the Eleventh and Twelfth Quorums to be properly listed. I'm going to preset additional parameters for those Quorums in case the number expands again at any point in the future so that it will be ready whenever that might be necessary. So I think that we won't shake up the status quo, unless anyone reading about the fix I've engineered feels that the page restructuring is still necessary. Hope that's okay. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 09:03, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
Hello again, everyone! This morning, as reported by the Newsroom and [6], D. Todd Christofferson represented the First Presidency in presenting a list of 77 new area seventies. After the names were presented, Russell M. Nelson stood and called for a sustaining vote on the list of names. Per the sources, sustaining new area seventies by name during the leadership sessions will be the "new normal", and when the new changes in Church leadership are presented as usual during General Conference, there will be a call for a sustaining vote for every name on the list as a whole, without that full list being read again over the pulpit. Is that something sufficiently noteworthy to mention here? If so, what si the best way to do that? Parenthetically, I should add that I plan on updating my personal files subsequent to updating this page with the new information as soon as I see specifically which area seventies are released on Saturday. Thanks in advance for any feedback on this.-- Jgstokes ( talk) 23:56, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
@ Jgstokes - I get 326 when I count the names on this list. If the count is 321 we need to find the 5 that have been released :) -- Trödel 22:23, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
Hello again, everyone! I am requesting comments here on whether or not it would be a good idea to reformat this page. I like that we have the names, dates of call, ages and locations, but I am wondering if there would be a way to simplify the page formatting (in much the same way that @ Dmm1169 did with this page. I am wondering how feasible it would be to not only list names, quorums, ages at dates of call, and current locations (where known) but also to add information about the specific areas within which those on this list are assigned. I have put together a document showing the breakdown of area seventies by quorum within each area, and another showing an alphabetical list of area seventies by quorum. So the questions to consider is, would a format change for the page be possible to improve page navigation and reader experience? Would it be possible, along with reformatting, to add other fields to each area seventy? And would having more information (such as the area to which each is assigned) be helpful or just more cumbersome? @Dmm1169, given your excellent work on overhauling the List of temples page, I'd be particularly interested in your thoughts on this, but anyone else is, as always, welcome to weigh in as well. I look forward to the discussion of these questions. Jgstokes ( talk) 23:59, 23 April 2023 (UTC)