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![]() | Material from Western (genre) was split to List of Western subgenres on December 3, 2022 from this version. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted so long as the latter page exists. Please leave this template in place to link the article histories and preserve this attribution. The former page's talk page can be accessed at Talk:Western (genre). |
No consensus to move. After extended time for discussion, there is no consensus for a move at this time. BD2412 T 00:28, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
– Western (as a genre of music, writing, film, TV, lifestyle, etc.) is not consistently capitalized in reliable sources, so per MOS:CAPS should not be capitalized here. This proposal includes/implies downcasing of Western in other genre-related contexts, e.g. in Western (genre), but not in uses of Western that distinguish e.g. European from Asian (Occidental vs Oriental) cultures, which are more consistently capitalized in sources. Dicklyon ( talk) 05:08, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
References
Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization.It then gives the criteria (the threshold) to determine what should be capitalise: "consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources." Seaching ngrams for Westerns is a good relevant search and to answer the question, the threshold for capitalisation set by MOS:CAPS is not a simple majority. The wording conveys that this should be a substantial majority. Furthermore, in assessing ngram evidence, some allowance must be made for captions, headings and citations of works where title case is normally used. Past discussions indicate an allowance of about 10%. One can also see here that a high proportion of Westerns (ie capped) occur at the start of a sentence and therefore, do not contribute to determining the question of capitalisation in running prose. Since about 1940, Westerns (capped) is running at about 60% (see here), and this is without applying an allowance for title-case usage. It is fairly conclusive evidence for not capping western here. If,
dime Western or revisionist Western would never be used to refer to an aspect of Western culturewhen used as a stand-alone phrase for an article title, then this is conveyed regardless of the capitalisation. A further reason against the argument of WP:RECOGNISABILITY. However, in prose, gothic Western film or revisionist Western movie could refer to Western culture rather than the cowboy genre. Cinderella157 ( talk) 02:56, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
The Google ngram data has been all over the place, so I'm gonna make a little list so that each one of these moves can be assessed:
Ngrams for different Western subgenres
Other relevant Google ngrams searches
Please reply with any other relevant ngrams. I believe the correct process is to determine whether the word "Western" (meaning the genre) should be capitalized, and then applying WP:CONSISTENCY for Western fiction, Western video games, Western films, Western TV series, etc. As for subgenres, they should really be determined on a case by case basis. :3 F4U ( they /it) 01:49, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
This will sometimes underrepresent uncommon usages, such as green or dog or book as verbs, or ask as a noun."Spaghetti western" is a noun phrase that reasonably only applies to the Italian made cowboy genre regardless of capitalisation. That the phrase pretty much exclusively refers to the genre can be confirmed by perusing google books eg here. Examples for the part of speech function only use single words, not a phrase. As a noun phrase, "spaghetti western" can act "attributively" to modify another noun such as film, actor or movie. It would appear that, in a fuller noun phrase eg "spaghetti western movie" the function may be parsing "western" as an adjective rather than as a noun. Even though "spaghetti western" is inherently a noun phrase, we see from this ngram that "Spaghetti Western" (both capped) is parsed almost exclusively as a noun, the ngram for "spaghetti western" (neither capped) it is parsed 100% as an adjective, and the ngram for "spaghetti Western (only western capped) it is parsed as a noun slightly more often than as an adjective. If we consider "spaghetti westerns", this ngram shows it has only slightly less usage in the corpus than "spaghetti western" (all forms) and it is consistently considered to be a noun (see also ngram for the common capitalisation variations, this ngram using the part of speech function, and this ngram because the search box isn't long enough). The conclusion is that the part of speech function cannot be relied upon herein for the construction "x western" in the way you would intend. I would suggest that such examples in this sub-section or those listed earlier be struck. Cinderella157 ( talk) 11:19, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
References
In the previous move discussion, it was noted that certain subgenres should not be capitalized if the adjective is not a proper noun. For example "spaghetti Western" was specifically noted and suggested that we move List of Spaghetti Western films to List of spaghetti Westerns. I have opened a move discussion on the list article (since that was the one specifically referenced in the previous discussion), but that would logically lead to addressing issues at Spaghetti Western as well. ButlerBlog ( talk) 14:55, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
Hold on – This idea seems to be rooted in the conception that there would be no consensus to move Spaghetti Western to it much more common form spaghetti western, just because there was no consenss to move all of them. Changing to the mixed case "spaghetti Western", which is rare in sources, would be a bizarre move. I'll comment there, too, but just wanted to make it clear that the lack of consensus above should not be taken as consensus that the capitalization is correct. Dicklyon ( talk) 19:48, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
This idea seems to be rooted in the conception that there would be no consensus to move Spaghetti Western to it much more common form spaghetti western, just because there was no consenss to move all of them.No, it's a separate issue. I only pinged you out of courtesy because you commented specifically on "spaghetti" in that discussion. ButlerBlog ( talk) 21:13, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Material from Western (genre) was split to List of Western subgenres on December 3, 2022 from this version. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted so long as the latter page exists. Please leave this template in place to link the article histories and preserve this attribution. The former page's talk page can be accessed at Talk:Western (genre). |
No consensus to move. After extended time for discussion, there is no consensus for a move at this time. BD2412 T 00:28, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
– Western (as a genre of music, writing, film, TV, lifestyle, etc.) is not consistently capitalized in reliable sources, so per MOS:CAPS should not be capitalized here. This proposal includes/implies downcasing of Western in other genre-related contexts, e.g. in Western (genre), but not in uses of Western that distinguish e.g. European from Asian (Occidental vs Oriental) cultures, which are more consistently capitalized in sources. Dicklyon ( talk) 05:08, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
References
Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization.It then gives the criteria (the threshold) to determine what should be capitalise: "consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources." Seaching ngrams for Westerns is a good relevant search and to answer the question, the threshold for capitalisation set by MOS:CAPS is not a simple majority. The wording conveys that this should be a substantial majority. Furthermore, in assessing ngram evidence, some allowance must be made for captions, headings and citations of works where title case is normally used. Past discussions indicate an allowance of about 10%. One can also see here that a high proportion of Westerns (ie capped) occur at the start of a sentence and therefore, do not contribute to determining the question of capitalisation in running prose. Since about 1940, Westerns (capped) is running at about 60% (see here), and this is without applying an allowance for title-case usage. It is fairly conclusive evidence for not capping western here. If,
dime Western or revisionist Western would never be used to refer to an aspect of Western culturewhen used as a stand-alone phrase for an article title, then this is conveyed regardless of the capitalisation. A further reason against the argument of WP:RECOGNISABILITY. However, in prose, gothic Western film or revisionist Western movie could refer to Western culture rather than the cowboy genre. Cinderella157 ( talk) 02:56, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
The Google ngram data has been all over the place, so I'm gonna make a little list so that each one of these moves can be assessed:
Ngrams for different Western subgenres
Other relevant Google ngrams searches
Please reply with any other relevant ngrams. I believe the correct process is to determine whether the word "Western" (meaning the genre) should be capitalized, and then applying WP:CONSISTENCY for Western fiction, Western video games, Western films, Western TV series, etc. As for subgenres, they should really be determined on a case by case basis. :3 F4U ( they /it) 01:49, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
This will sometimes underrepresent uncommon usages, such as green or dog or book as verbs, or ask as a noun."Spaghetti western" is a noun phrase that reasonably only applies to the Italian made cowboy genre regardless of capitalisation. That the phrase pretty much exclusively refers to the genre can be confirmed by perusing google books eg here. Examples for the part of speech function only use single words, not a phrase. As a noun phrase, "spaghetti western" can act "attributively" to modify another noun such as film, actor or movie. It would appear that, in a fuller noun phrase eg "spaghetti western movie" the function may be parsing "western" as an adjective rather than as a noun. Even though "spaghetti western" is inherently a noun phrase, we see from this ngram that "Spaghetti Western" (both capped) is parsed almost exclusively as a noun, the ngram for "spaghetti western" (neither capped) it is parsed 100% as an adjective, and the ngram for "spaghetti Western (only western capped) it is parsed as a noun slightly more often than as an adjective. If we consider "spaghetti westerns", this ngram shows it has only slightly less usage in the corpus than "spaghetti western" (all forms) and it is consistently considered to be a noun (see also ngram for the common capitalisation variations, this ngram using the part of speech function, and this ngram because the search box isn't long enough). The conclusion is that the part of speech function cannot be relied upon herein for the construction "x western" in the way you would intend. I would suggest that such examples in this sub-section or those listed earlier be struck. Cinderella157 ( talk) 11:19, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
References
In the previous move discussion, it was noted that certain subgenres should not be capitalized if the adjective is not a proper noun. For example "spaghetti Western" was specifically noted and suggested that we move List of Spaghetti Western films to List of spaghetti Westerns. I have opened a move discussion on the list article (since that was the one specifically referenced in the previous discussion), but that would logically lead to addressing issues at Spaghetti Western as well. ButlerBlog ( talk) 14:55, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
Hold on – This idea seems to be rooted in the conception that there would be no consensus to move Spaghetti Western to it much more common form spaghetti western, just because there was no consenss to move all of them. Changing to the mixed case "spaghetti Western", which is rare in sources, would be a bizarre move. I'll comment there, too, but just wanted to make it clear that the lack of consensus above should not be taken as consensus that the capitalization is correct. Dicklyon ( talk) 19:48, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
This idea seems to be rooted in the conception that there would be no consensus to move Spaghetti Western to it much more common form spaghetti western, just because there was no consenss to move all of them.No, it's a separate issue. I only pinged you out of courtesy because you commented specifically on "spaghetti" in that discussion. ButlerBlog ( talk) 21:13, 24 July 2023 (UTC)