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![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of List of Soviet armies was copied or moved into 25th Army (Soviet Union) with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
I oppose to merging, since the article is supposed to give specifics about the "Soviet Army Army". It is not like a subtopic of a general topic. And to merge into a subsection of an article about a significantly different topic is all the more wrong idea. Mikkalai 21:18, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Please do not delete or merge this page. It is a good respository for info on Soviet armies that don't have enough info to deserve their own page. 203.97.106.191 10:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Everything below the contents should be split off to List of Soviet armies. — Michael Z. 2007-06-27 02:28 Z
Merging the Civil War list with the WWII list makes it hard for readers to find out how many armies were present in the Civil War, and the Civil War material is irrelevant to those looking up WWII, and vice-versa. Jacob Haller 17:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
The translation of отдельная as separate is not quite right. The Army with such a designation was intended to operate within the operational and strategic design of the Red Army as a whole, but independently due to some particularity of its deployment of the threat faced. From this POV it seems to me that Independent is a better English word to use. At the start of WW there were several of them, the best known being the 9th Independent Army that later became Independent Coastal Army, and the 7th Independent Army that was operating against Finland in some fairly remote terrain. There were also independent armies of the reserve, the 51st, 52nd, 54th and 56th Independent Armies. The other Army sized organisations usually left out are the Fortified Regions. Although they did not have the manpower of the Armies, they did occupy the frontages of the Armies, so in a strategic sense were very much on the Army level in terms of impact on planning.-- Mrg3105 ( talk) 05:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I need to check this, but I ma mostly sure that the correct designation for these was (example) 5th Army of the Reserve of STAVKA. The STAVKA reserves had lots of different units from all Arms and Services and the Armies of Reserve were eventually renamed and renumbered on being fielded in active Front assignments. I know its semantics maybe, but here the Reserve means not that the Army was a reserve one of reserve status as in Australian Army Reserve, but that it was a formation in Reserve of the higher echelon of Command.-- Mrg3105 ( talk) 02:32, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Buckshot06, I actually think I'm right on that one. A second, or subsequent formation Army (or any other echelon unit) is actually a separate entity that has nothing to do with the previous manifestation. The 63rd Army 2nd Formation is not the original 63rd Army reformed, but an entirely new Army, and should have its own entry. I'm sorry if the sources you have do not make this clear. The appellation '2nd formation' is for administrative purposes to ensure that any service personnel records are stored in the right place. -- Mrg3105 ( talk) 22:38, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Quite simply the Army (Soviet Army) page is near overload now. Once we have every army with a page that's roughly like Seventh United States Army I think we can start thinking about that. But even then I would disagree. Commonweath units keep their history intact no matter how many times they've been formed and reformed, and so do US units. Otherwise we'd have, instead of the single page for a US Army listed above, about five stumpy pages. That's the rule for Western formations, and I believe it should stay that way.
But let me tell you what the usual practice is for major changes in a way a page is set up, like listing second formations. It's not to insert one change like that, when there are 40 odd second formations numerically before 63rd Army. When you want to suggest a major page change like that, the etiquette is to raise the proposal on the talk page, wait a while and see what other people think, and see where the discussion goes before making initial, undiscussed changes which stand a high chance of getting reverted. You will suffer very many less reverts and get far more cooperation if you raise proposed changes on the talk page first. Cheers Buckshot06 ( talk) 23:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
By the way, I am very surprised a the Russian version of the MDs because it says they were created in the 1860s, but I thought only the Zemstvo were created for civilian administration. I thought the administrations were based on gubernya system (replacing the
Inspectorates), but that part of Russian military history during later 19th century is not my strong point. In any case, I have a list of the MDs and their histories, so I will have a look at your current setup, and create the rest. I would like to propose that the appellation "X formation" be used in the actual formation/unit name to avoid confusion. Is that ok with you?
What is the problem with documenting 2,000 divisions? :o) As I see it, Wikipedia offers a great opportunity to do so. Even if we will not complete it, someone will, which is the entire point of Wiki.
BTW, speaking of Craig, he is a co-author of the book you quote. Cheers--
Mrg3105 (
talk) 01:19, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Do you mind if I move the Air Armies to the Soviet Air Force article? I need to expand the table substantially and it seems to me they are misplaced with the Army armies anyway. Cheers-- mrg3105 mrg3105 00:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Please remind me what the correct syntax is for these. In current use:
Soviet Third Guards Army
Fourth Guards Army (Soviet Union)
Seventh Guards Army
Soviet 8th Guards Army
14th 'Budapest' Guards Army
--
mrg3105
mrg3105 09:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 01:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Here is a discussion.
Anyone has anything to add?-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 08:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Current title, List of Armies of the Soviet Union, is unfit for title because Soviet Union was formed only in 1922. During Russian Civil War those armies were under Soviet Russia.-- Staberinde ( talk) 14:09, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
If Russian civil war armies remain in article, then why not rename it simply to List of Soviet Armies? That title would effectively cover both Soviet Russia and Soviet Union.-- Staberinde ( talk) 08:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I would like to point out one more time that Soviet Union was formed in 1922. So current title is inaccurate due article including civil war armies. I still think that it should be moved to List of Soviet Armies.-- Staberinde ( talk) 16:23, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
The title change is great - but it means that we must add the Red Army (Bavaria) as this was another Soviet Army. I am not sure that the same can be said for the Lenin Boys as they were more akin to the Cheka. However read this which indicates that the However my main point is that the First Army link goes to First Army (Soviet Union) and actually winds up with 1st Red Banner Army which does not really work out. We need clarity about the changes in structure so that the querent can have a clear idea of the changes and continuities which make up the history of the Soviet Armies. My own interest is with the early days of the Red Army, particularly before the foundation of the Soviet Union. Harrypotter ( talk) 20:32, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
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![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of List of Soviet armies was copied or moved into 25th Army (Soviet Union) with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
I oppose to merging, since the article is supposed to give specifics about the "Soviet Army Army". It is not like a subtopic of a general topic. And to merge into a subsection of an article about a significantly different topic is all the more wrong idea. Mikkalai 21:18, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Please do not delete or merge this page. It is a good respository for info on Soviet armies that don't have enough info to deserve their own page. 203.97.106.191 10:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Everything below the contents should be split off to List of Soviet armies. — Michael Z. 2007-06-27 02:28 Z
Merging the Civil War list with the WWII list makes it hard for readers to find out how many armies were present in the Civil War, and the Civil War material is irrelevant to those looking up WWII, and vice-versa. Jacob Haller 17:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
The translation of отдельная as separate is not quite right. The Army with such a designation was intended to operate within the operational and strategic design of the Red Army as a whole, but independently due to some particularity of its deployment of the threat faced. From this POV it seems to me that Independent is a better English word to use. At the start of WW there were several of them, the best known being the 9th Independent Army that later became Independent Coastal Army, and the 7th Independent Army that was operating against Finland in some fairly remote terrain. There were also independent armies of the reserve, the 51st, 52nd, 54th and 56th Independent Armies. The other Army sized organisations usually left out are the Fortified Regions. Although they did not have the manpower of the Armies, they did occupy the frontages of the Armies, so in a strategic sense were very much on the Army level in terms of impact on planning.-- Mrg3105 ( talk) 05:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I need to check this, but I ma mostly sure that the correct designation for these was (example) 5th Army of the Reserve of STAVKA. The STAVKA reserves had lots of different units from all Arms and Services and the Armies of Reserve were eventually renamed and renumbered on being fielded in active Front assignments. I know its semantics maybe, but here the Reserve means not that the Army was a reserve one of reserve status as in Australian Army Reserve, but that it was a formation in Reserve of the higher echelon of Command.-- Mrg3105 ( talk) 02:32, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Buckshot06, I actually think I'm right on that one. A second, or subsequent formation Army (or any other echelon unit) is actually a separate entity that has nothing to do with the previous manifestation. The 63rd Army 2nd Formation is not the original 63rd Army reformed, but an entirely new Army, and should have its own entry. I'm sorry if the sources you have do not make this clear. The appellation '2nd formation' is for administrative purposes to ensure that any service personnel records are stored in the right place. -- Mrg3105 ( talk) 22:38, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Quite simply the Army (Soviet Army) page is near overload now. Once we have every army with a page that's roughly like Seventh United States Army I think we can start thinking about that. But even then I would disagree. Commonweath units keep their history intact no matter how many times they've been formed and reformed, and so do US units. Otherwise we'd have, instead of the single page for a US Army listed above, about five stumpy pages. That's the rule for Western formations, and I believe it should stay that way.
But let me tell you what the usual practice is for major changes in a way a page is set up, like listing second formations. It's not to insert one change like that, when there are 40 odd second formations numerically before 63rd Army. When you want to suggest a major page change like that, the etiquette is to raise the proposal on the talk page, wait a while and see what other people think, and see where the discussion goes before making initial, undiscussed changes which stand a high chance of getting reverted. You will suffer very many less reverts and get far more cooperation if you raise proposed changes on the talk page first. Cheers Buckshot06 ( talk) 23:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
By the way, I am very surprised a the Russian version of the MDs because it says they were created in the 1860s, but I thought only the Zemstvo were created for civilian administration. I thought the administrations were based on gubernya system (replacing the
Inspectorates), but that part of Russian military history during later 19th century is not my strong point. In any case, I have a list of the MDs and their histories, so I will have a look at your current setup, and create the rest. I would like to propose that the appellation "X formation" be used in the actual formation/unit name to avoid confusion. Is that ok with you?
What is the problem with documenting 2,000 divisions? :o) As I see it, Wikipedia offers a great opportunity to do so. Even if we will not complete it, someone will, which is the entire point of Wiki.
BTW, speaking of Craig, he is a co-author of the book you quote. Cheers--
Mrg3105 (
talk) 01:19, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Do you mind if I move the Air Armies to the Soviet Air Force article? I need to expand the table substantially and it seems to me they are misplaced with the Army armies anyway. Cheers-- mrg3105 mrg3105 00:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Please remind me what the correct syntax is for these. In current use:
Soviet Third Guards Army
Fourth Guards Army (Soviet Union)
Seventh Guards Army
Soviet 8th Guards Army
14th 'Budapest' Guards Army
--
mrg3105
mrg3105 09:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 01:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Here is a discussion.
Anyone has anything to add?-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 08:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Current title, List of Armies of the Soviet Union, is unfit for title because Soviet Union was formed only in 1922. During Russian Civil War those armies were under Soviet Russia.-- Staberinde ( talk) 14:09, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
If Russian civil war armies remain in article, then why not rename it simply to List of Soviet Armies? That title would effectively cover both Soviet Russia and Soviet Union.-- Staberinde ( talk) 08:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I would like to point out one more time that Soviet Union was formed in 1922. So current title is inaccurate due article including civil war armies. I still think that it should be moved to List of Soviet Armies.-- Staberinde ( talk) 16:23, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
The title change is great - but it means that we must add the Red Army (Bavaria) as this was another Soviet Army. I am not sure that the same can be said for the Lenin Boys as they were more akin to the Cheka. However read this which indicates that the However my main point is that the First Army link goes to First Army (Soviet Union) and actually winds up with 1st Red Banner Army which does not really work out. We need clarity about the changes in structure so that the querent can have a clear idea of the changes and continuities which make up the history of the Soviet Armies. My own interest is with the early days of the Red Army, particularly before the foundation of the Soviet Union. Harrypotter ( talk) 20:32, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
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