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Alexander Beliavsky was born and raised in Lviv, Ukraine. He moved in Slovenia in late '90s.
Ivan Shishman's father was not Jewish. There is talk that his mother, Sarah, may have been but that is highly speculative. I am also close to 100% sure that Pancho Vladigerov was not of Jewish descent. I will provide evidence soon.
what's South Park's Kyle gotta do with Serbia?
Per standards for X-American lists, people of first-generation American birth are categorized on X-Americans list, not by their ethnic background. Note that Jennifer Aniston's father was Greek-born, we don't categorize her on List of Greeks. 65.10.45.212 16:00, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
This is not a policy; it's a discussion. Further, the position you advance is not mentioned.-- 20.138.246.89 16:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
By all means delete everyone on the list with only a Jewish great-grandparent, and bring as many editors as you like. And 3RR doesn't apply in this case, as I am fixing deliberate attempts to damage the page (and of course you made the fourth edit first).-- 20.138.246.89 17:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
This isn't a list of X-Americans, it's the List of South-East European Jews, so who counts as an X-American is irrelevant. -- 20.138.246.89 17:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Yet you keep re-adding many X-Americans to this list. How about we get a third opinion and form a deal? If the third opinion states that we can't be going around adding X-Americans to European country lists, you agree to allow the removal of them. If the third opinion states that it is fine to list people based on their ethnic origins and suggests we do away with X-American lists, I'll agree to leave them on here. Ok? A quick end. 65.10.45.212 17:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
No, there is no reason why someone cannot be on two lists. Would anyone argue that someone born and educated in Greece but who spent most of his or her life in America was not both Greek and Greek-American? I'm quite happy to ask some of the people editing List of Czech Jews for an opinion.-- 20.138.246.89 17:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I am happy for you to put it on that page if you put the options fairly and refer to all the lists in dispute.-- 20.138.246.89 17:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Coming from WP:3O, I have the following comment: Policies and guidelines provides an overview on how WP works. They do not (with some exceptions) detail exactly what should and should not be included or excluded. Rather, editors must come to an agreement on what is relevant. In this case, if there's consensus, or even a supermajority, among editors for Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Rules for lists of X-Americans, that may be applicable here.
However, more important is WP:VERIFY and WP:NPOV#Undue_weight. In the case of Aniston (just an example), if she's normally referred to as an American, that's what she is (even if you could find one or two sources saying she's Greek), unless she refers to herself as Greek. -- Steve Hart 02:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi Steve. Using your Aniston example, I drew parallels to all the removed names:
The dominant view is that this person is American (born in America, raised in America). Accordingly, he has Greek ancestors, just like any other American has X ancestors. Thus, he could possibly be put on List of Greek Americans if the ancestry is recent enough for him to consider himself Greek-American. Aniston has Greek desent too but we don't put her on a list of Greeks either.
His grandparents are from Greece, but the dominant view is this person is an American actor/comedian, born and raised in America, 2nd generation. He may barely qualify for List of Greek Americans, but a full-blown list of Greeks? Aniston has closer ties to Greece and she is seen as more American too. As per above, we wouldn't put her on a list of Greeks, so Azaria shouldn't either.
Apparently this American actresses parents were Greek (born in Greece? We don't know.) Aniston's father was born in Greece. The dominant view is that she is American (born here, raised here) so at best she is a Greek American, like Aniston.
This person only has one Greek parent. They were born in Belgium and later moved to America. The dominant view appears to be that she is an American, of mixed ancestry, like any America. She may pass of as Belgian given she was born there. Her mother was born in Greece. Aniston's father was born in Greece. Yet as we don't put Aniston, we would't but Furstenberg.
can't find much of any information on this person to begin with.
Sigler has a Greek father (actually mixed Greek/Romanian father). Aniston has a Greek father. Both were born and raised in USA. Both may identify as Greek-Americans, but neither would go on a full list of Greeks.
This politicial is seen almost ubiquitously as French despite Hungarian and Greek ancestry. He was born in France, raised in France to a Hungarian father and mother of mixed French-Greek(Jewish) ancestry. Simirlarly, Aniston has rather close Greek ancestry and she was born and raised in the USA. We wouldn't put her on a list of Greeks, so why put Sarkozy (especially considering such distant ancestry)? He could perhaps qualify for the category Category:Greek-French people
Zander had a Greek mother. Aniston had a Greek father. Both were born and raised in America. As we would not add Aniston to a list of greeks, we would equivalently not add Zander. Greek-Americans, possibly yes.
Brazilian is much like "American". It is considered a nationality as nobody is ethnically Brazilian. Sivlio Santos has a Greek parent (and a Turkish one). Aniston has a Greek parent. Santos was born and raised in Brazil. Aniston was born and raised in US. WE don't put Aniston on a list of Greeks. We wouldn't put Santos. He probably qualifies as Category:Greek-Brazilians
Hopefully now, without further objections, we can see why each was removed and most were moved to List of Greek Americans. 65.10.36.51 21:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Despite the source saying he's a Greek Jew, Sampras explains his family's background in great detail here: http://www.tennisserver.com/netgame/netgame_10_2_96.html. Pete Sampras was born in the United States. 141.213.212.42 05:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
This is the third opinion that you requested, and you were happy with it.-- 20.138.246.89 10:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. The compromise was that we would get a Third Opinion. This opinion was that an American was an American unless they referred to themselves as Greek. Where does "dominant view" come in? Are you now repudiating the Third Opinion? -- 20.138.246.89 13:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Rather than having you guess what Mr Hart meant, let's wait and see what he says.-- 20.138.246.89 16:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I was asked by an anonymous editor to check into the referenced information regarding Pete Sampras. I will make my response here in case the IP is a dynamic one. (By the way, perhaps both of you should register for accounts, having a stable talk page makes communication much easier!) It appears the source of Sampras' quote is from a 1996 interview, which can be found here. In it, Sampras does state that he is 25% Jewish, from his father's side. However, he declines to identify himself as a Jew here, and there seems to be a significant consensus among the Jewish community that only matrilineal Jewish ancestry "counts" toward being Jewish. Finally, the source cited, "standwithus", is of questionable reliability-it is pretty evidently partisan, and I see little evidence of peer review or editorial control. As the information regards a living person, I have removed it per WP:BLP, and would ask that it not be added again unless a better source can be found showing that Sampras has been identified as Jewish by a more reliable source, or has unequivocally self-identified as such. (He certainly would fit on, for example, a "List of people with Jewish ancestry", if such were to exist.) Seraphimblade 01:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi. Just one point. I don't believe that there is a "significant consensus among the Jewish community that only matrilineal Jewish ancestry "counts" toward being Jewish." To the contrary, I believe it is the offical policy of the Reform movement (which I believe is greater in number in the US than the Orthodox movement), that patrilinal Jewish ancestry counts. Cheers. -- Epeefleche 22:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Ammiel Alcalay Bosnian? Moise Rahmani Greek? Edgar Morin Greek? Yosef Lapid Serbian? Lavoslav Glesinger Jewish? Olivier Strelli Greek? Thomas Nagel Serbian?
I added William Feller to the list of Croatian Jews.
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![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
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Alexander Beliavsky was born and raised in Lviv, Ukraine. He moved in Slovenia in late '90s.
Ivan Shishman's father was not Jewish. There is talk that his mother, Sarah, may have been but that is highly speculative. I am also close to 100% sure that Pancho Vladigerov was not of Jewish descent. I will provide evidence soon.
what's South Park's Kyle gotta do with Serbia?
Per standards for X-American lists, people of first-generation American birth are categorized on X-Americans list, not by their ethnic background. Note that Jennifer Aniston's father was Greek-born, we don't categorize her on List of Greeks. 65.10.45.212 16:00, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
This is not a policy; it's a discussion. Further, the position you advance is not mentioned.-- 20.138.246.89 16:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
By all means delete everyone on the list with only a Jewish great-grandparent, and bring as many editors as you like. And 3RR doesn't apply in this case, as I am fixing deliberate attempts to damage the page (and of course you made the fourth edit first).-- 20.138.246.89 17:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
This isn't a list of X-Americans, it's the List of South-East European Jews, so who counts as an X-American is irrelevant. -- 20.138.246.89 17:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Yet you keep re-adding many X-Americans to this list. How about we get a third opinion and form a deal? If the third opinion states that we can't be going around adding X-Americans to European country lists, you agree to allow the removal of them. If the third opinion states that it is fine to list people based on their ethnic origins and suggests we do away with X-American lists, I'll agree to leave them on here. Ok? A quick end. 65.10.45.212 17:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
No, there is no reason why someone cannot be on two lists. Would anyone argue that someone born and educated in Greece but who spent most of his or her life in America was not both Greek and Greek-American? I'm quite happy to ask some of the people editing List of Czech Jews for an opinion.-- 20.138.246.89 17:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I am happy for you to put it on that page if you put the options fairly and refer to all the lists in dispute.-- 20.138.246.89 17:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Coming from WP:3O, I have the following comment: Policies and guidelines provides an overview on how WP works. They do not (with some exceptions) detail exactly what should and should not be included or excluded. Rather, editors must come to an agreement on what is relevant. In this case, if there's consensus, or even a supermajority, among editors for Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Rules for lists of X-Americans, that may be applicable here.
However, more important is WP:VERIFY and WP:NPOV#Undue_weight. In the case of Aniston (just an example), if she's normally referred to as an American, that's what she is (even if you could find one or two sources saying she's Greek), unless she refers to herself as Greek. -- Steve Hart 02:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi Steve. Using your Aniston example, I drew parallels to all the removed names:
The dominant view is that this person is American (born in America, raised in America). Accordingly, he has Greek ancestors, just like any other American has X ancestors. Thus, he could possibly be put on List of Greek Americans if the ancestry is recent enough for him to consider himself Greek-American. Aniston has Greek desent too but we don't put her on a list of Greeks either.
His grandparents are from Greece, but the dominant view is this person is an American actor/comedian, born and raised in America, 2nd generation. He may barely qualify for List of Greek Americans, but a full-blown list of Greeks? Aniston has closer ties to Greece and she is seen as more American too. As per above, we wouldn't put her on a list of Greeks, so Azaria shouldn't either.
Apparently this American actresses parents were Greek (born in Greece? We don't know.) Aniston's father was born in Greece. The dominant view is that she is American (born here, raised here) so at best she is a Greek American, like Aniston.
This person only has one Greek parent. They were born in Belgium and later moved to America. The dominant view appears to be that she is an American, of mixed ancestry, like any America. She may pass of as Belgian given she was born there. Her mother was born in Greece. Aniston's father was born in Greece. Yet as we don't put Aniston, we would't but Furstenberg.
can't find much of any information on this person to begin with.
Sigler has a Greek father (actually mixed Greek/Romanian father). Aniston has a Greek father. Both were born and raised in USA. Both may identify as Greek-Americans, but neither would go on a full list of Greeks.
This politicial is seen almost ubiquitously as French despite Hungarian and Greek ancestry. He was born in France, raised in France to a Hungarian father and mother of mixed French-Greek(Jewish) ancestry. Simirlarly, Aniston has rather close Greek ancestry and she was born and raised in the USA. We wouldn't put her on a list of Greeks, so why put Sarkozy (especially considering such distant ancestry)? He could perhaps qualify for the category Category:Greek-French people
Zander had a Greek mother. Aniston had a Greek father. Both were born and raised in America. As we would not add Aniston to a list of greeks, we would equivalently not add Zander. Greek-Americans, possibly yes.
Brazilian is much like "American". It is considered a nationality as nobody is ethnically Brazilian. Sivlio Santos has a Greek parent (and a Turkish one). Aniston has a Greek parent. Santos was born and raised in Brazil. Aniston was born and raised in US. WE don't put Aniston on a list of Greeks. We wouldn't put Santos. He probably qualifies as Category:Greek-Brazilians
Hopefully now, without further objections, we can see why each was removed and most were moved to List of Greek Americans. 65.10.36.51 21:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Despite the source saying he's a Greek Jew, Sampras explains his family's background in great detail here: http://www.tennisserver.com/netgame/netgame_10_2_96.html. Pete Sampras was born in the United States. 141.213.212.42 05:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
This is the third opinion that you requested, and you were happy with it.-- 20.138.246.89 10:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. The compromise was that we would get a Third Opinion. This opinion was that an American was an American unless they referred to themselves as Greek. Where does "dominant view" come in? Are you now repudiating the Third Opinion? -- 20.138.246.89 13:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Rather than having you guess what Mr Hart meant, let's wait and see what he says.-- 20.138.246.89 16:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I was asked by an anonymous editor to check into the referenced information regarding Pete Sampras. I will make my response here in case the IP is a dynamic one. (By the way, perhaps both of you should register for accounts, having a stable talk page makes communication much easier!) It appears the source of Sampras' quote is from a 1996 interview, which can be found here. In it, Sampras does state that he is 25% Jewish, from his father's side. However, he declines to identify himself as a Jew here, and there seems to be a significant consensus among the Jewish community that only matrilineal Jewish ancestry "counts" toward being Jewish. Finally, the source cited, "standwithus", is of questionable reliability-it is pretty evidently partisan, and I see little evidence of peer review or editorial control. As the information regards a living person, I have removed it per WP:BLP, and would ask that it not be added again unless a better source can be found showing that Sampras has been identified as Jewish by a more reliable source, or has unequivocally self-identified as such. (He certainly would fit on, for example, a "List of people with Jewish ancestry", if such were to exist.) Seraphimblade 01:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi. Just one point. I don't believe that there is a "significant consensus among the Jewish community that only matrilineal Jewish ancestry "counts" toward being Jewish." To the contrary, I believe it is the offical policy of the Reform movement (which I believe is greater in number in the US than the Orthodox movement), that patrilinal Jewish ancestry counts. Cheers. -- Epeefleche 22:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Ammiel Alcalay Bosnian? Moise Rahmani Greek? Edgar Morin Greek? Yosef Lapid Serbian? Lavoslav Glesinger Jewish? Olivier Strelli Greek? Thomas Nagel Serbian?
I added William Feller to the list of Croatian Jews.
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:20, 15 December 2017 (UTC)