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Please someone ask to block the page, a ferrari fanboy (or employee) is vandalizing the page, elminating radical times and adding 599xx time in production car category, the car is not road legal.
I thought the Production Cars section was for production cars only? Production car is not an ambiguous label. The SR8 is as much of a production car as the Viper SRT-10 Competition Coupe (that is to say, it isn't a production car). Instead of trying to label nonseries and nonroad legal cars as production cars, why not investigate the claims on the Mosler beating the Viper SRT-10 ACR? Das Viper ( talk) 15:41, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
The biggest reasons why I would say the SR8 (or most any other Radicals) is not a production car is for the same reasons Nissan, Pagani, Chevrolet, Dodge, Porsche and any other production car record holders around the 'Ring don't consider it a production car. When Nissan took the record with their latest GT-R, everyone recognized it as the production car recorder holder (magazine articles and websites). The same for Pagani with their Zonda, Chevrolet with their C6 ZR1, Porsche with their Carrera GT and Dodge with their SRT-10 ACR (although I think the Viper should be questionable, since it had a nonstock race harness. However, last time I checked, it managed to qualify as a production car even with the racing seat). All of these production car records were set at the time the SR8 had already obtained its nonseries or nonroad legal tests. Keep in mind, this was not merely the companies themselves, but websites and car magazines (there's mention of it in last year's Car And Driver, around the Winter season, to name one. I'm not sure of the exact month. There's also Jay Leno's website, where he gave the ZR1 credit for holding the production car record at the 'Ring) stating this information. When Nissan's GT-R took the record, for example, it wasn't just Nissan spouting off that it took the production car record. Everyone was all over the information. No one said anything along the lines of "Nissa GT-R takes 2nd place at Nurburgring."
So it was with great curiosity I logged in one day and found that someone had moved the SR8 into the production car league. Has the definition of what a production car changed? Does Wikipedia's definition differ from what auto makers and auto magazines call a production car? Or has production car become an ambiguous label that could apply to virtually any car? Das Viper ( talk) 18:47, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm aware of Porsche running a GT-R around the 'Ring to get a dubious lap time to discredit Nissan. And I say that because the GT-R humiliates all but one Porsche model (and almost ties with that one exception) around the Top Gear test track and many others. In any case, would you mind giving sources that say the SR8 is the production car record holder and is in fact a production car, please? I'd very much appreciate it. The link linking to the supposed info doesn't work on the main page. Das Viper ( talk) 22:33, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
You guys are crazy if you think the Radical SR8 should be in this list. ColdNoun ( talk) 18:29, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
The SR8 holds the fastest production vehicle lap time around the Nürburgring; why ignore Radical's own claim that it is a production sportscar and road legal (within Europe). Please amend the main article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fjallraven ( talk • contribs) 18:27, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Oh Dear, you don't seem to understand do you? I shall try to make this as clear as possible without being rude. I am not a respected automotive expert and I am assuming that the same applies to you - as non experts our opinions as to if the Radical is suitable to be called a production car or not, is irrelevant. I don't understand why you claim that this is a super/sports car category, maybe my eyes are failing me, but I read it as production car. The Viper that you seem to be happy to be at the top of the list is a track car, as are many many cars that have been on the list for a long time - other editors seems to be happy for them to remain - ie. there is consensus. To be on the list a car has to be a car, be road legal, be a production car ie. not a one off, and be unmodified. The Radical fulfills the requirements for being classed as a production car. Your feelings what will happen to the auto industry if we allow cars like the Radical to remain on the list are irrelevant and highly unrealistic. This car was on the list, we had reached consensus, please obtain new consensus if you wish to remove it. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! ( talk) 07:53, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I removed the lower C6 Z06 lap time, because I do not understand why more than one lap time is listed even though, as far as I know, there is no controversy about GM's test. If we are going to list every lap time ever reported for every car, won't that greatly expand the chart and make it very confusing? Roguegeek replaced the entry and wanted to discuss this. Any input is welcome. Shielse123 ( talk) 22:04, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Will anyone be adding the times set down by Marc Basseng for EVO magazine?
They ran the Maserati MC12, Pagani Zonda F Clubsport, Koenigsegg CCX, Porsche Carrera GT and Ferrari Enzo with help from Black Falcon.
The times for the cars were:
I was thinking about adding these after i saw yesterday they weren't on here but a quick look to EVO's website shows no trace of the article leaving us nothing to link to to evidence. WE can't just say we read the mag and they were in there... 81.79.208.165 ( talk) 19:15, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I never believed the 7:29 to be driven with a stock car. Even more than others japanese manufacturers are known for "producing" laptimes for marketing reasons. Nevertheless I wonder why noone changes the tracklength to 20.6 km, as anyone can clearly see in the video that it is the shorter "sportauto-lap". I hope that wikipedia will get better protection from adulterant contributions, some users seem to do marketing in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.113.106.22 ( talk) 11:07, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
The 7:29 has been proven to be false by two different independent test now. Three or four seconds difference may be believable, not 25. The number must be pulled. Leaving it up only encourages others to lie as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joecooool1 ( talk • contribs) 16:21, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
7:29 is not full tracklength, but 20.6km - proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBZ5i15yVU8 please edit! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.113.121.16 ( talk) 13:59, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
The GT-R times are also "manufacturer claimed". Best Motoring did not conduct the test. They reported on the test conducted by Nissan. Best Motoring is a secondary source (which is good if you read the policy) and Nissan is the primary source. Check out what the difference is and how they are defined WP:PRIMARY. roguegeek ( talk· cont) 18:53, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
Nissan's claim has been achived by way of cheating. They didn't use stock tires and possibly other problems. Acutual production car was tested and could only come within 25 seconds of Nissan's claim. Source: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/09/30/porsche-accuses-nissan-gt-r-of-cheating-the-ring/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.138.229.136 ( talk) 00:35, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
The Japanese website citation for the 7:26 GT-R time has nothing to do with its ring lap time, nor does it prove that it is using stock tyres or any specified tyres. Please do not simply cite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.101.36.187 ( talk) 15:09, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Also why do people continue to question this when it is for the obvious reason that they do not believe a car that retails for the price the R35 does, could possibly be that good? It simply boils down to the fact that there is no 'fact' about anything here in regard to lap times. Moreover it seems that if a Ferrari had posted the exact same time it would not have been brought into such scrutiny as has the R35. Many here have to take into account also that (according to Motor Trend http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0803_2009_nissan_gt_r_dyno_test/index.html) Nissan was held in high regard for having been very conservative with the real numbers when talking about the car's top speed and horsepower. So it serves only to question why then, they would go out of their way to make such false claims? —Preceding unsigned comment added by HolyB144 ( talk • contribs) 19:52, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
in the video on youtube of the GTR running the 7:26 it clearly shows the GTR in question with spec-v wheels.
Myself and the multitude of wikipedia users can only watch on in complete bewilderment as the GT-R's nurburgring data is repeatedly molested by unidentified net vandals. As of right now the lap time has been completely removed based on an incredibly flimsy assertion that begins with this line: "I never believed the 7:29 to be driven with a stock car". Is it now the role of wikipedia to report information based on the whims and fancies of poorly informed arm chair critics?
I'm under no misconceptions about the fact that the GT-R's 7:29 lap time is indeed a manufacturer claim but it must be made absolutely clear that despite all the grand claims that have been made about the 7:29 lap, not a single shred of evidence exists which proves without a doubt that the 7:29 lap time was performed with a tampered car. All we have at present are the unsupported claims of a direct competitor, Porsche, which has a vested interest in ensuring the GT-R's failure as a product.
Additionally, the fact that Driver's Republic could not achieve Nissan's lap time claim, while informative in studies of lap time variations across drivers of different skill and across varying conditions, says absolutely nothing about the validity of Nissan's claim. It goes without saying that the chief vehicle test driver, in ideal conditions, should be able to easily outperform a motoring journalist in less than ideal conditions.
Ask yourself this: Does the fact that you are not able to run the 100m sprint as fast as Hussain Bolt constitute evidence that Hussain Bolt cheated? I think not. I think we are all well aware of Hussain Bolt's far superior athletic prowess.
That the GT-R's lap time is disputed by multitudes of inconspicuous internet professors says nothing more about the GT-R's lap time than it does about every other lap time result which manages to upset fanbois/fangirls of another vehicle.
All I am asking for is consistency in reporting. Right now an unconfirmed lap time for the ZR1 is listed in the table and yet the GT-R's 7:29 is not listed, even as a manufacturer claim, despite both telemetry and video evidence to support Nissan's claim. Even worse, multiple instances of Porsche manufacturer claims, none of which provide telemetry or video evidence of any kind, are very craftily listed as "Porsche conducted tests". Is Porsche now considered to be an independent testing authority? This should be listed more correctly as a "Porsche claim".
The GT-R's 7:29 lap time should be returned to this table and correctly identified as a manufacturer claim. The Driver's Republic journal results and Porsche claims should also be listed clearly as what they are. This way wikipedia users can digest all of the relevant information and come to their own conclusions, rather than having their information "managed" beforehand.
This argument speaks to the very credibility of wikipedia as a source of information. Let's get real about this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gp900bj ( talk • contribs) 11:44, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Additionally, the fact that Driver's Republic could not achieve Nissan's lap time claim, while informative in studies of lap time variations across drivers of different skill and across varying conditions, says absolutely nothing about the validity of Nissan's claim. It goes without saying that the chief vehicle test driver, in ideal conditions, should be able to easily outperform a motoring journalist in less than ideal conditions.
Not intended as an argument for or against your overall point, but I like to add two notes to two of your arguments. He is a motor journalist yes, but the fact he also has some racing experience (especially on the Nordschleife) might not be completely irrelevant ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drivers_Republic). Furthermore it seems reasonably obvious to me that the Driver's Republic comparisons intent and significance is not comparing laptimes of a single car with different conditions and drivers, but to compare two different cars (The GT2 and the GT-R) with identical conditions and drivers. The fact that a 3rd party test shows the GT-R to be 6.9s slower than the GT2, while the manufacturer's claim is in fact 3s faster, is in my view relevant to the validity of Nissan's claim. That said there is no guarantee of DR's objectivity or driving consistency either.
The GT-R's 7:29 lap time should be returned to this table and correctly identified as a manufacturer claim. The Driver's Republic journal results and Porsche claims should also be listed clearly as what they are. This way wikipedia users can digest all of the relevant information and come to their own conclusions, rather than having their information "managed" beforehand.
Considering the above I would agree with this statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CSpronken ( talk • contribs) 11:13, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
This whole table is garbage basically, since any true racer knows you can only compare two cars under the exact same conditions. The head to head test of the Porsche and GT-R tells you all you need to know. The GT-R is slower than the Porsche on the ring, period. This whole GT-R was pure hype. Nobody has been able to verify to the R33 time either after many many years, in fcat tests have found it to be waaaay off. CJ DUB ( talk) 03:52, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
There are multiple observers of the EVO test that have different accounts of the tires and suspension setups that were used on these magazine runs. Obviously one driver on one day taking three different cars and posting three of the top four fastest times ever is enough to raise serious suspicions as to the validity of the runs.
Regarding the GT-R, Porsche is now formally claiming that Nissan "cheated" to get these times. Porsche has just run its own back-to-back tests with the Japanese company's GT-R supercar and says it could not get within 25 seconds of Nissan's claimed record time of seven minutes 29 seconds in April. BMW has reported that the GT-R that turned in the 7:29 was actually running 693 hp, which is about 200 hp more than the production car comes with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joecooooooool ( talk • contribs) 15:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Source 1 - http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/Nissan-GT-R/235197/
Source 2 - http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/7259/nissangtr693my0.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joecooooooool ( talk • contribs) 14:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
In the record table, it's stated that the R33 GT-R has done a 7:59. There is no a single source on the internet to confirm it, so I hope you'd remove it. You also stated on Porsche 911 GT3 section that the 996 GT3 has done a 7:56 but you didn't put it on record table. ( Challenger64hemi ( talk) 07:56, 12 October 2008 (UTC))
I'd love for this to be true as much as the next Corvette fan, but blogs and forums are generally not considered reliable sources for Wikipedia references (the biggest exception is when a posting is from a verified expert - certainly not the case here). Sometimes you can figure out where they got their information and it may lead to a reliable source, but in this case, it actually leads to an even more unreliable source.... Motorgears even gives the source: "IP: 24.208.168.135" posted it to fastestlaps.com. Do you think that we can consider a random user of roadrunner.com to be a reliable source? Not only that, but that post has since been removed - if you click on it, it now shows nothing. So now, it is completely unsourced (except that a blog saved a copy from the web posting). If this data can be verified as reliable, it can be restored, but until then, the 7:22 needs to go as it is backed up by no hard data. Said another way, I could post the exact same info to fastestlaps.com, only this time with 7:22.1. Some blog picks up that data and now we put it in Wikipedia. NOT the way to build a reliable encyclopedia. — Mrand Talk • C 22:54, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Jan Magnussen along with a GM factory driver, drove the ZR1 to a 7:22.4 on Oct.28, 2008. What else is there to discuss? Yes, Jan Magnussen is a professional race car driver and he lapped the track 4 seconds faster than Jim Mero, a GM engineer. These facts are posted on numerous websites, why is this a point of disagrteement? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ORYXGTO ( talk • contribs) 03:39, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
THE Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 HAS SINCE RUN A 7:22.4. at the hands of Jan Magnussen ! second ONLY to the R compound, tired Viper ACR! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.107.94.204 ( talk) 01:03, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
The times were published on Fastestlaps.com but have since been retracted. Along with the fact that GM did not release a press release of said time, unlike every other nurburgring time they have done, we can assume that the 7:22.4 time is false and never happened. The only sources still claiming this are forum oists that lead back to blogs that lead back to Fastesttimes.com, which has since removed that time from their database. -- Mwmorph ( talk) 06:50, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
There has been a new lap time which needs to be added to the unofficial lap times. The bike was ridden by Andy "Andypath" Carlile on the 11th September 2008. The bike was ridden for Fast Bikes magazine and will be in the January issue of that magazine. The bike as a P3 Unlimited Suzuki GSXR600K6 Superlite. The time for the lap was 7 minutes 17 seconds. The bike was the first of a limited edition production run of lightweight GSXR600's built by P3 Unlimited and is the exact same spec as the production bike at 153Kg wet and 120 BHP at the rear wheel.
If this could please be added that would be appreciated.
RacerX67 ( talk) 16:28, 19 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by RacerX67 ( talk • contribs) 15:18, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
-Also the fastest two motorcycle laptimes tested by PB (myself[Dale Lomas], The Baron and Andy Carlisle have been reduced by 20 seconds. The true times are 7min22.8 for the MV and 7min28 for the R1 as cited in the references. As I'm also the guy who did the testing I can email the datalogs should these be required. These are factually incorrect and wholly unrealistic. Dalomas ( talk) 09:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Please correct the bike laptimes as Dale has said your laptimes are 20 second adrift for the Performance bikes laptimes. Also please add the P3 bike as the time has been checked and is correct and currently the fastest bike to have lapped the tourist lap. If you are going to put times as fact please check them and make sure they are accurate.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by RacerX67 ( talk • contribs) 18:59, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi Guys about the Norschleife nurburgring Evo mag track times watch the vidéos , the starting point for the crono is not the same as the stop point you can add easy 5 or 6 sec on all the lap times showed for get the real laptime . . I was in Nurburg this summer , Viper laptime is true & they didn't reach it at the first lap Note to euro supercars makers : guys its swell to resale $1,000,000 cars but if you like to catch really the kings of the hill its time to stop talking & begin to work (some efforts would be appreciated ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.67.11.20 ( talk) 18:33, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
I noticed it's impossible to edit the lap time article. I understand if this is to prevent vandalism and untrue lap times from entering into the data. However, how old and outdated is the data currently on display in the article? Das Viper ( talk) 04:09, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
"suspension adjustments" should not be cited. the GTR and many other vehicles have a "sport mode" which makes the same adjustments to shocks as what was adjusted on the ACR-yet no one ever cites those. this whole "aero adjustment" "suspension adjustments" is misleading and biased. the veyron has an adjustable spoiler yet there are no citations for its times. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gray cobra ( talk • contribs) 01:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I have changed the note on the ACR's time from "suspension modifications" to "suspension adjustments" as "modifications" implies something more extensive than turning a knob on the dampers. It also more accurately reflects the cited source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.246.210 ( talk) 04:35, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Why is the Viper ACR not on the list at all? I notice the article link at the bottom highlights suspension adjustments but it comes from the factory with fully adjustable suspension. It is more of a production car than many on the list. You can go into a Dodge Dealer and purchase one just as you would any other car. Technically the ACR package is an option that is added to the car. It has full interior, a radio, air conditioning, airbags, etc. There is no roll cage and it has real glass windows. If it does not qualify as a production car I don't know how others such as the Radical do. Somehow the media (and apparently now this page as well) focus on the ZR1/GTR Nurburgring times, but ignore the time of the ACR. I didn't want to jump in and edit the page since I have never really edited much, so I thought I would reach out and see if there is a reason it is not included. Notacop ( talk) 14:01, 17 July 2009 (UTC) Notacop
Just because there's no video doesn't mean it didn't run 7:22.4. I found this article of ZR1's 7:22.4 lap time from Motor Authority. http://www.motorauthority.com/corvette-zr-1-laps-the-ring-in-7264.html. Check it out. It might look reliable. - Gohardnal ( talk) 06:14, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
I know there are a lot of questions surrounding the ZR1's 7:22.4 lap time claim and that the claim is beginning to look increasingly like a fraud. Aside from discovering that no GM press release exists for the claim and that nothing has been mentioned on Jan Magnussens web page and that no video has been produced in the 4 months since the claim was made, I have also discovered the following information on the corvetteforum web page.
A thread was started on that forum, reporting the supposed 7:22.4 lap time, just 1 day after the lap time was posted on fastestlaps.com by an anonymous submitter. How this information moved so quickly is beyond me, especially considering the insignificance of the source and his/her/it's inconspicuous nature. Link to the thread: [5]
Observe how that thread unfolds and then, importantly, observe how that thread is finally locked when another corvetteforum member obtains inside information from GM which confirms that the corvette team has not returned to the Nurburgring since recording Jim Mero's 7:26.4 lap time, clearly indicating that the 7:22.4 lap time is a fraud. Link to the final post which confirms the 7:22.4 as a hoax: [6]
In light of the lack of evidence to support the 7:22.4 lap time and given this new information from the corvetteforum web page I would strongly suggest that the ZR1's 7:22.4 lap time be removed from the list. Admin please confirm this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gp900bj ( talk • contribs) 05:20, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Update, Road&Track has confirmed the lap time to be a hoax and has issued a correction to their publication of the time:
I think this is pretty much all we need to remove the 7:22.4 from the table.
In regard to the discussion of "Production Cars" the "Non-Series" chart should include vehicles that do not meet the full homologation requirements. This gives an unfair advantage to certain low volume manufacturers in certain regions.
Cars like the Radical SR8 are not required to meet the same rules as fully homologated road cars therefore they should be classified in a different group. The UK has special relaxed requirements that allow just about anything with four wheels to be declared a passenger car. A quick glance at the Radical reveals these shortages - i.e. lack of bumpers, lack of windscreen, lack of air bags, lack of full set of reflectors, lack of energy absorbing structure, etc. The "Non-Series" chart should be re-titled :"Non-Series and Small-Series/road legal cars without full homologation". Looking at the Radical is a matter of common sense. It is a purpose built prototype race car that happened to skirt the law in the UK and be classified as a road legal car. It is hardly in the same class as a Nissan GT-R, a Corvette ZR1 or a Viper ACR.
The BBC TV series agrees with this common sense approach to what is a road car and what is a race car with a registration. They have simple common sense rules that say wether or not a car is allowed on their production car lap time leaderboard - e.g. 'The car must be able to travel over a speed bump'. Fans or employees of Radical should not dismay. They are still at the top of thier class.
You could make an arguement that that the Viper Competition Coupe race car is more of a road car than the Radical. It has a windscreen, windshield wipers, a roof, doors, bumpers, can navigate over a set of speed bumps, etc. There are certain countries and certain states in the US that allows an extremely liberal registration of vehicles. In this regard, where do you draw the line as to what a production car is? A car that meets the rules of full production homologation (i.e. no loop holes) should be called a "Production Car". Anything short of this is a "Small Series" vehicle that plays by a more liberal set of rules.
The "Non-Series" chart should be reworded to "Non-series and Small-series/road legal cars without full homologation.
Reference UK Small Series Laws - [8] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sauron22 ( talk • contribs) 23:14, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Your reference on the McLaren F1 is insufficent. This listing is as unsupported, just like the listing of Jan Magnussen's ZR1 time of 7:22.4 which didn't happen. I have not been able to find any reference that F1 time. I'm sure McLaren would have publicized this event if it actually happened and it should be quite easy to find. Part of contributing to Wikipedia is backing up your posts with strong sources. This listing coupled with the lack of any other evidence doesn't meet that criteria.
To return to the discussion of what a true series-production car is. Your comment "There are many many cars out there that don't have doors/windows/air-bags/etc" is true. But it is also true that these vehicles are not constructed under the same set of government regulations as other cars and thereby they should be classified in a different group. An automobile manufacturer has to live to a set of rules just like the manufacturers of racing cars. Different classes have different rules. Under the laws of some countries and some regions you are able to homologate and sell racing cars. There have been several purpouse built race cars that have been registered and are driven legally on the road. This is exactly what Radical is doing. The Viper ACR is built to the same laws and rules that a high volume car is. Your comment "To me the Dodge Viper ACR...is the racing version of the road car, it happens to be road legal, but it is just like the Radical a car destined for the track not the road." is incorrect. The best comparison of the Viper ACR is the Porsche GT3RS. A simple survey of the Viper and Porsche club forums reveals that the overwhelming majority of the time these cars are driven on public roads. The opposite is true of the Radical. The ACR and GT3RS were both designed, conceived and built as fully homologated street cars. They play by a much different set of rules than racing cars such as the Radical. Your comment "it really is not up to an editor of wikipedia to decide that a certain car is not worthy of being called a production car" is one that I agree with. It's not up to you or me to say if the Radical is a fully homologated passenger car. The government of the United Kingdom has a well documented set of rules that puts a line between full homologation and "Small Series" homologation. Did you read the linked reference to the Small Series manufacturers laws? Small series cars are only requred to meet half of the regulations by number per the chart on page 4. Items number 4 and 5 on the chart includes five separate "smoke and exhaust emissions" requirements. None of these things are required by Radical. In other words, they have complete flexibility to pollute and produce emissions (i.e. just like a race car). It is not reasonable to put a car that has this major advantage in the same class as the vehicles with extremely burdensome regulations regarding emissions. Here is the Small Series summary again - http://www.vca.gov.uk/additional/files/vehicle-type-approval/vehicle-type-approval/vca002.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.9.163.106 ( talk) 20:30, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I think this section does bring up some important questions about what constitutes a "Production" vehicle and whether or not that term adequately covers the type of vehicle we are aiming to display in that particular section. It is my understanding that the table for Production vehicles is essentially attempting to display the lap times for "street legal" or "road going" vehicles.
The term "Production" can be ambiguous as there are numerous manufacturers who specifically "Produce" track dedicated vehicles, many of which would not satisfy registration requirements in certain countries. Then comes another question, which country's road legislation should we apply as a standard?
The situation becomes even more complicated by the fact that the majority of these vehicles offer a high degree of component adjustability and/or chassis alteration which, when configured for track use, can make the vehicle non-compliant where it would have otherwise been compliant in a less track focused configuration. Adjustable ride height is one of the features which can result in this outcome.
I am amused by the actions of the recently discovered Chrysler employee (or associate, see section below, Conflict of Interest) and his/her repeated attempts at removing the Radical SR8 on grounds of "Not street legal". They should be more concerned about the validity of the ACR's lap time as there a plenty of indications that the Viper ACR which ran the 7:22.1 lap time was configured in a way which would have violated a key FMVSS statute making the car non-compliant. I am of course referring to the pair of front splitters which Chrysler had fitted to the ACR which violate FMVSS statute 215 regarding pedestrian safety and 2.5mph crash survivability (See Car&Driver November 2008, Page 24). Of course the splitters are removable but when fitted they contribute approximately 1/4 of the vehicles down-force and are key to eliminating under-steer.
The important question is: whether or not the "street legality" of the particular configuration which was used to obtain a lap time matters more than the vehicles production status. This would be something to think about for the future. gp900bj —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gp900bj ( talk • contribs) 12:17, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I am admittedly new to the Wikipedia system and haven't read all of the guidelines including the COI guidelines. I thank all the editors that have given me guidance so far. Each time they've given me guideance I read the links and improved my posts with better supported information. Yes, I am an employee of Chrysler and my edits regarding the Radical were intended to restore the board to what it was previously and to propose a clarification of the "Non-Series/Road Legal" chart. For several years, the Radical SR8 and other such Small-series cars were in the "Non-Series/Road Legal Cars" chart on this Wikipedia listing. The Carerra GT was at the top of the prodution car chart. Most enthusiasts and most publications see clear a difference between cars like the Radical and other full production cars. That's why they recognized the Carrera GT as the fastest production car lap time for years. That's why they recognize the ACR now. I think that's why this article was set up the way it originally was (Production vs. Non-Series/Road Legal). If someone beats the ACR with a full production car, so be it. It's bound to happen sooner or later.
All of my edits regarding the Viper ACR have only been to clarify and provide accurate information. I have tried to provide a 3rd party unbiased source for each of my posts. I just read the COI guidelines that were provided and have no problem admitting my COI. If I had understood this policy I would have declared it from the beginning. I think the other editors agree that having a COI doesn't mean you can't provide accurate information. Also, having a COI does not mean you are distorting the facts. If you can read all of my previous edits (I'm a novice and don't know if/how to do this) you would see that I have posted other manufacturers lap times. I was the first one to post the Corvette ZR1 time of 7:22 based on the Autoblog article. This is the opposite of "advancing outside intrests" and only diminishes the gap with ACR time doesn't it?. And I was also the first to post the EVO magazine shoot out with the Zonda and other cars that closed the gap with the ACR. Neither of these things could be considered "self promoting" or "distortions". My edits have all been about getting the correct information on the chart.
A classification for Non-Series or Small-Series/road legal cars is a logical and common sense approach in grouping cars like the Radical. That is exactly how this chart was used previously. I did make a mistake on one of my earlier comments about the emissions requirements and am glad to see there are other Wiki-editors reading the regulations and acknowledging the fact that there is a different set of rules for small manufacturers. In the United States there are certain states that have a more flexible set of homologation rules as well. Rather than endlessly debate this, a simple deliniation for a "Production" and "Non-Series/Small Series" should be used. There have been owners of Viper Competition Coupe race cars that have registered them for road legal use in their state. This car is a Small-series production car that is road legal. Should this guy be able to run the Nordschleife and post his time? Should a Hennesey Viper be able to run the Ring and post a time as a production car? There is an easy way to avoid confusion - full homologation.
The reason Radical is able to liberally build such a fantastic car is because it has a different set of rules and laws. Almost everyone understands this. The charts on this site would be more correct if they reflected this as well. -- Sauron22 ( talk) 16:43, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
You guys sure are going about this in a complicated way. It's very obvious that the SR8 is not designed to satisfy the same requirements as the rest of the cars on this list. Even if no information about the car's design were available, when the SR8 ran it's lap it beat out the next closest competitor that was currently on the list by nearly a full minute. You don't beat the next fastest competitor in this game by that much by following the same rules. I suppose what really needs to be decided is where a car must be road legal to count as "production". After all, if Sealand clears a space on it's deck and makes a law that Formula 1 cars are legal on it, does that count? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.94.180.63 ( talk) 18:02, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
Guess what car I found for sale? -- LiamE ( talk) 05:50, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
I have been trying to reinstate the Radical SR8 as the fastest production car for the last few days. Editor Sauron22 Special:Contributions/Sauron22 has been removing this fact. Upon looking at his edit history, I noticed that he only edits this article and the Dodge Viper article. (removing the Radical SR8 would make the Dodge Viper the fastest production car around the Nurburgring)
To me that is wrong, it is mildly disruptive - but overall nothing more than an OR and edit dispute..no big problem.
Well it was not a problem until the editor failed to log in and edited the talk page with his IP, instead of his account. Upon running whois on his IP, I found that the IP is registered to Chrysler Motors Corporation, the company that makes the Dodge Viper, the car that he is trying so hard to keep as the fastest on the list. One of the edit summaries used by the IP states # 04:34, 12 August 2008 (hist) (diff) Chrysler Headquarters and Technology Center (I changed the square footage from 4.4 million square feet to 5.4 million square feet. I work here and its posted everywhere.)
The IP in question is Special:Contributions/129.9.163.106 and the whois result is here [10]
I am not suggesting that there are any sock puppet/IP issues, there have been no attempts to use the IP to get around editing restrictions, form false consensus etc, however there is a clear conflict of interest and seeing that the Sauron account has only made edits to this article and the article of the Dodge Viper it is clearly a single purpose account with a clear agenda and an equally clear conflict of interest. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! ( talk) 23:37, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
If your facts are correct, this would constitute a clear conflict of interest and you can make a case on Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard. — Deon Steyn ( talk) 05:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I feel that the time I added is a little dubious, the only references to this I can find list the car as McLaren F1 #LMXP1 - does anyone know any more about this? The time is awesome, maybe a little too good and I would like to clarify this one way or another. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! ( talk) 12:20, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
The SPS-Automotive link does not meet the standard of a reliable third party published source. From all of the searches I've done there appears to be no other support that this lap time ever happened. -- Sauron22 ( talk) 16:02, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
The three cited sources say nothering about where the SR8 is legal. I have found a motortrend article that does (Britain only). It's here: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/convertibles/112_0708_caparo_t1_first_drive/driving_impressions.html
Unless someone has a good reason why this is not valid, I will update the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.94.180.63 ( talk) 18:33, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
Okay after some VERY boring digging around the EU statues I am a duller person but I also have a little light to shine on the subject. Type approval across the EU is automatic - ie a car approved in any member state is approved for all states - but there is a small get out clause that applies to Radicals and other cars that are approved on national schemes. I quote... "If your vehicle has obtained national type-approval, the authorities in the country in which you are applying for registration may refuse to accept the national Certificate of Conformity only (a) if it can be shown that the vehicle represents a serious hazard to road safety or the environment, and (b) the decision is properly justified." Sooooo.... it seems they are not completely automatically road legal throughout the EU but a country wishing to not accept it as legal would have the burden of proof on it to prove that the car is either a serious hazard to the environment or road safety. The first option can be discounted immediately as UK national small series testing includes emissions testing to the full Euro standards. Refusal on the second criteria is also very ulikely as the SR8 and other Radicals have to conform to the VERY stringent FIA crash and safety testing which as I understand it exceeds the standards required for normal cars. So unless an EU member state refuses to allow the registration of an SR8 and can justify its position in the face of the SR8s compliance with full EU emissions laws and its compliance with FIA and British small series safety regulaions, which seems stunningly unlikely, it is legal throughout the EU. --
LiamE (
talk)
10:47, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
What do Sport Auto have to do with anything? Did I miss something? Is this the "Sport Auto fastest times around the Ring" article? カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! ( talk) 19:17, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Note that Matthead did not respond to the comments above, however within 5 minutes of me reverting to the previous version, he undid my edit. A little more discussion, and a little less diving in to make substantial changes without consensus would be good カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! ( talk) 19:12, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
The current version of the article is mixing oranges, apples and bananas. It shows manufacturers claims on top, while results of World Championship racing events are given lowest priority. The edit and talk history proves that the article, similar to internet forums, has become a battle field of car fans, of which some even show a bias against (among others) the country the track is located in. Thus, I am going to create new articles: List of Nordschleife lap times (racing) and List of Nordschleife lap times (sport auto). -- Matthead Discuß 20:10, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
I added the Sport Auto table to the Sport Auto article. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! ( talk) 03:55, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
This source is in Japanese. Since the article is in English wouldn't it be a good idea to have the link for the source point to, say, a google-translated page? I've checked it and it comes out more or less readable. Definitely gets the point across. A translated page still has a link to the original at the top. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.11.213.246 ( talk) 03:01, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I originally browsed to this page to post a link to a digital copy of the Radical's owner's manual showing the car's requirements for a 45 minute start up procedure involving a laptop plugged into the ECU, 108 octane fuel, engine rebuilds every 30 hours, transmission inspections/rebuilds after every race, etc. - but then I realized that there is no current definition of "production" in use here. There is no hard rule to decide if any of that information is even relevant. It's no secret that there has been a lot of disagreement here recently and this is at the heart of it. Concrete requirements for what constitutes "production" need to be decided on, and a small paragraph should be added under each heading in the article to inform readers of exactly what type of vehicles are contained in the chart they're looking at. If the requirements are to be that 1. Money can buy it and 2. It can be declared road legal somewhere, then that is all very well, but since most people hear the word "production" and think "Corolla", "assembly line" or something of the like, this must be made clear to the reader, otherwise it is misleading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.11.213.206 ( talk) 04:25, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
While I realise that this does not apply to every IP editor, recently there have been lots of edits by IPs, that are subtly changing the times in the production car table - based on the locations of the IP, it seems like one user using proxies. Can other regular visitors to this page check for such edits - or can an admin semi-protect this article please. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! ( talk) 00:03, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
-- CJ DUB ( talk) 23:39, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
From wiki WF:P:
Questionable sources Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or with no editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources should only be used as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves. (See below.) Questionable sources are generally unsuitable as a basis for citing contentious claims about third parties.
1. The Porsche GT2 example is a not a good idea of what should be in this list, and should also be removed. It does not justify the inclsuion of more poor quality adds.
2. You are not an auto engineer. Neither am I, but those technologies will not make the car faster than a street prep race car like the Viper ACR. The LF-A does not introduce any new "go faster" technologies that did not already exist. Ferrari for example has been mounting engines low in cars for decades, and the Vantage V12 is the nearest comparator using a nearly identical layout, very low midmount, and is nowhere near as fast.
3. There is no evidence that this was a production car.
CJ DUB ( talk) 02:40, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
What claim? It has been verified everywhere that the Viper was a higly prepped entry and basically a race car. The LF-A is not a race car in production trim. So how does it do it exactly? Hmm, I'll leave that to you. Getting back to the article, WP:V applies, since the car has such incredible hype and the reference for the lap time does not stand up to wiki scrutiny, being an offhand remark by an Toyota engineer, with no information provided on the specifications of the car, prep, or anything really, that would allow this to be used as a citation. Buddy's assertion "toyota employee said it so it is a good citation" is complete nonsense and a poor argument. 03:46, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Gentlemen, New Lap record for the Mercedes SLS - 7:40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfkDKznMH6c
Add, please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.52.16.105 ( talk) 19:45, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Here: Talk:Lexus LFA. Please give input.
Same user as on here ( Blhsing), is still using the Toyota employee offhand remark as gospel when it doesn't even meet the wiki standard. CJ DUB ( talk) 03:24, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Please someone ask to block the page, a ferrari fanboy (or employee) is vandalizing the page, elminating radical times and adding 599xx time in production car category, the car is not road legal.
I thought the Production Cars section was for production cars only? Production car is not an ambiguous label. The SR8 is as much of a production car as the Viper SRT-10 Competition Coupe (that is to say, it isn't a production car). Instead of trying to label nonseries and nonroad legal cars as production cars, why not investigate the claims on the Mosler beating the Viper SRT-10 ACR? Das Viper ( talk) 15:41, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
The biggest reasons why I would say the SR8 (or most any other Radicals) is not a production car is for the same reasons Nissan, Pagani, Chevrolet, Dodge, Porsche and any other production car record holders around the 'Ring don't consider it a production car. When Nissan took the record with their latest GT-R, everyone recognized it as the production car recorder holder (magazine articles and websites). The same for Pagani with their Zonda, Chevrolet with their C6 ZR1, Porsche with their Carrera GT and Dodge with their SRT-10 ACR (although I think the Viper should be questionable, since it had a nonstock race harness. However, last time I checked, it managed to qualify as a production car even with the racing seat). All of these production car records were set at the time the SR8 had already obtained its nonseries or nonroad legal tests. Keep in mind, this was not merely the companies themselves, but websites and car magazines (there's mention of it in last year's Car And Driver, around the Winter season, to name one. I'm not sure of the exact month. There's also Jay Leno's website, where he gave the ZR1 credit for holding the production car record at the 'Ring) stating this information. When Nissan's GT-R took the record, for example, it wasn't just Nissan spouting off that it took the production car record. Everyone was all over the information. No one said anything along the lines of "Nissa GT-R takes 2nd place at Nurburgring."
So it was with great curiosity I logged in one day and found that someone had moved the SR8 into the production car league. Has the definition of what a production car changed? Does Wikipedia's definition differ from what auto makers and auto magazines call a production car? Or has production car become an ambiguous label that could apply to virtually any car? Das Viper ( talk) 18:47, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm aware of Porsche running a GT-R around the 'Ring to get a dubious lap time to discredit Nissan. And I say that because the GT-R humiliates all but one Porsche model (and almost ties with that one exception) around the Top Gear test track and many others. In any case, would you mind giving sources that say the SR8 is the production car record holder and is in fact a production car, please? I'd very much appreciate it. The link linking to the supposed info doesn't work on the main page. Das Viper ( talk) 22:33, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
You guys are crazy if you think the Radical SR8 should be in this list. ColdNoun ( talk) 18:29, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
The SR8 holds the fastest production vehicle lap time around the Nürburgring; why ignore Radical's own claim that it is a production sportscar and road legal (within Europe). Please amend the main article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fjallraven ( talk • contribs) 18:27, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Oh Dear, you don't seem to understand do you? I shall try to make this as clear as possible without being rude. I am not a respected automotive expert and I am assuming that the same applies to you - as non experts our opinions as to if the Radical is suitable to be called a production car or not, is irrelevant. I don't understand why you claim that this is a super/sports car category, maybe my eyes are failing me, but I read it as production car. The Viper that you seem to be happy to be at the top of the list is a track car, as are many many cars that have been on the list for a long time - other editors seems to be happy for them to remain - ie. there is consensus. To be on the list a car has to be a car, be road legal, be a production car ie. not a one off, and be unmodified. The Radical fulfills the requirements for being classed as a production car. Your feelings what will happen to the auto industry if we allow cars like the Radical to remain on the list are irrelevant and highly unrealistic. This car was on the list, we had reached consensus, please obtain new consensus if you wish to remove it. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! ( talk) 07:53, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I removed the lower C6 Z06 lap time, because I do not understand why more than one lap time is listed even though, as far as I know, there is no controversy about GM's test. If we are going to list every lap time ever reported for every car, won't that greatly expand the chart and make it very confusing? Roguegeek replaced the entry and wanted to discuss this. Any input is welcome. Shielse123 ( talk) 22:04, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Will anyone be adding the times set down by Marc Basseng for EVO magazine?
They ran the Maserati MC12, Pagani Zonda F Clubsport, Koenigsegg CCX, Porsche Carrera GT and Ferrari Enzo with help from Black Falcon.
The times for the cars were:
I was thinking about adding these after i saw yesterday they weren't on here but a quick look to EVO's website shows no trace of the article leaving us nothing to link to to evidence. WE can't just say we read the mag and they were in there... 81.79.208.165 ( talk) 19:15, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I never believed the 7:29 to be driven with a stock car. Even more than others japanese manufacturers are known for "producing" laptimes for marketing reasons. Nevertheless I wonder why noone changes the tracklength to 20.6 km, as anyone can clearly see in the video that it is the shorter "sportauto-lap". I hope that wikipedia will get better protection from adulterant contributions, some users seem to do marketing in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.113.106.22 ( talk) 11:07, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
The 7:29 has been proven to be false by two different independent test now. Three or four seconds difference may be believable, not 25. The number must be pulled. Leaving it up only encourages others to lie as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joecooool1 ( talk • contribs) 16:21, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
7:29 is not full tracklength, but 20.6km - proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBZ5i15yVU8 please edit! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.113.121.16 ( talk) 13:59, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
The GT-R times are also "manufacturer claimed". Best Motoring did not conduct the test. They reported on the test conducted by Nissan. Best Motoring is a secondary source (which is good if you read the policy) and Nissan is the primary source. Check out what the difference is and how they are defined WP:PRIMARY. roguegeek ( talk· cont) 18:53, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
Nissan's claim has been achived by way of cheating. They didn't use stock tires and possibly other problems. Acutual production car was tested and could only come within 25 seconds of Nissan's claim. Source: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/09/30/porsche-accuses-nissan-gt-r-of-cheating-the-ring/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.138.229.136 ( talk) 00:35, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
The Japanese website citation for the 7:26 GT-R time has nothing to do with its ring lap time, nor does it prove that it is using stock tyres or any specified tyres. Please do not simply cite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.101.36.187 ( talk) 15:09, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Also why do people continue to question this when it is for the obvious reason that they do not believe a car that retails for the price the R35 does, could possibly be that good? It simply boils down to the fact that there is no 'fact' about anything here in regard to lap times. Moreover it seems that if a Ferrari had posted the exact same time it would not have been brought into such scrutiny as has the R35. Many here have to take into account also that (according to Motor Trend http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0803_2009_nissan_gt_r_dyno_test/index.html) Nissan was held in high regard for having been very conservative with the real numbers when talking about the car's top speed and horsepower. So it serves only to question why then, they would go out of their way to make such false claims? —Preceding unsigned comment added by HolyB144 ( talk • contribs) 19:52, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
in the video on youtube of the GTR running the 7:26 it clearly shows the GTR in question with spec-v wheels.
Myself and the multitude of wikipedia users can only watch on in complete bewilderment as the GT-R's nurburgring data is repeatedly molested by unidentified net vandals. As of right now the lap time has been completely removed based on an incredibly flimsy assertion that begins with this line: "I never believed the 7:29 to be driven with a stock car". Is it now the role of wikipedia to report information based on the whims and fancies of poorly informed arm chair critics?
I'm under no misconceptions about the fact that the GT-R's 7:29 lap time is indeed a manufacturer claim but it must be made absolutely clear that despite all the grand claims that have been made about the 7:29 lap, not a single shred of evidence exists which proves without a doubt that the 7:29 lap time was performed with a tampered car. All we have at present are the unsupported claims of a direct competitor, Porsche, which has a vested interest in ensuring the GT-R's failure as a product.
Additionally, the fact that Driver's Republic could not achieve Nissan's lap time claim, while informative in studies of lap time variations across drivers of different skill and across varying conditions, says absolutely nothing about the validity of Nissan's claim. It goes without saying that the chief vehicle test driver, in ideal conditions, should be able to easily outperform a motoring journalist in less than ideal conditions.
Ask yourself this: Does the fact that you are not able to run the 100m sprint as fast as Hussain Bolt constitute evidence that Hussain Bolt cheated? I think not. I think we are all well aware of Hussain Bolt's far superior athletic prowess.
That the GT-R's lap time is disputed by multitudes of inconspicuous internet professors says nothing more about the GT-R's lap time than it does about every other lap time result which manages to upset fanbois/fangirls of another vehicle.
All I am asking for is consistency in reporting. Right now an unconfirmed lap time for the ZR1 is listed in the table and yet the GT-R's 7:29 is not listed, even as a manufacturer claim, despite both telemetry and video evidence to support Nissan's claim. Even worse, multiple instances of Porsche manufacturer claims, none of which provide telemetry or video evidence of any kind, are very craftily listed as "Porsche conducted tests". Is Porsche now considered to be an independent testing authority? This should be listed more correctly as a "Porsche claim".
The GT-R's 7:29 lap time should be returned to this table and correctly identified as a manufacturer claim. The Driver's Republic journal results and Porsche claims should also be listed clearly as what they are. This way wikipedia users can digest all of the relevant information and come to their own conclusions, rather than having their information "managed" beforehand.
This argument speaks to the very credibility of wikipedia as a source of information. Let's get real about this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gp900bj ( talk • contribs) 11:44, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Additionally, the fact that Driver's Republic could not achieve Nissan's lap time claim, while informative in studies of lap time variations across drivers of different skill and across varying conditions, says absolutely nothing about the validity of Nissan's claim. It goes without saying that the chief vehicle test driver, in ideal conditions, should be able to easily outperform a motoring journalist in less than ideal conditions.
Not intended as an argument for or against your overall point, but I like to add two notes to two of your arguments. He is a motor journalist yes, but the fact he also has some racing experience (especially on the Nordschleife) might not be completely irrelevant ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drivers_Republic). Furthermore it seems reasonably obvious to me that the Driver's Republic comparisons intent and significance is not comparing laptimes of a single car with different conditions and drivers, but to compare two different cars (The GT2 and the GT-R) with identical conditions and drivers. The fact that a 3rd party test shows the GT-R to be 6.9s slower than the GT2, while the manufacturer's claim is in fact 3s faster, is in my view relevant to the validity of Nissan's claim. That said there is no guarantee of DR's objectivity or driving consistency either.
The GT-R's 7:29 lap time should be returned to this table and correctly identified as a manufacturer claim. The Driver's Republic journal results and Porsche claims should also be listed clearly as what they are. This way wikipedia users can digest all of the relevant information and come to their own conclusions, rather than having their information "managed" beforehand.
Considering the above I would agree with this statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CSpronken ( talk • contribs) 11:13, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
This whole table is garbage basically, since any true racer knows you can only compare two cars under the exact same conditions. The head to head test of the Porsche and GT-R tells you all you need to know. The GT-R is slower than the Porsche on the ring, period. This whole GT-R was pure hype. Nobody has been able to verify to the R33 time either after many many years, in fcat tests have found it to be waaaay off. CJ DUB ( talk) 03:52, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
There are multiple observers of the EVO test that have different accounts of the tires and suspension setups that were used on these magazine runs. Obviously one driver on one day taking three different cars and posting three of the top four fastest times ever is enough to raise serious suspicions as to the validity of the runs.
Regarding the GT-R, Porsche is now formally claiming that Nissan "cheated" to get these times. Porsche has just run its own back-to-back tests with the Japanese company's GT-R supercar and says it could not get within 25 seconds of Nissan's claimed record time of seven minutes 29 seconds in April. BMW has reported that the GT-R that turned in the 7:29 was actually running 693 hp, which is about 200 hp more than the production car comes with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joecooooooool ( talk • contribs) 15:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Source 1 - http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/Nissan-GT-R/235197/
Source 2 - http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/7259/nissangtr693my0.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joecooooooool ( talk • contribs) 14:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
In the record table, it's stated that the R33 GT-R has done a 7:59. There is no a single source on the internet to confirm it, so I hope you'd remove it. You also stated on Porsche 911 GT3 section that the 996 GT3 has done a 7:56 but you didn't put it on record table. ( Challenger64hemi ( talk) 07:56, 12 October 2008 (UTC))
I'd love for this to be true as much as the next Corvette fan, but blogs and forums are generally not considered reliable sources for Wikipedia references (the biggest exception is when a posting is from a verified expert - certainly not the case here). Sometimes you can figure out where they got their information and it may lead to a reliable source, but in this case, it actually leads to an even more unreliable source.... Motorgears even gives the source: "IP: 24.208.168.135" posted it to fastestlaps.com. Do you think that we can consider a random user of roadrunner.com to be a reliable source? Not only that, but that post has since been removed - if you click on it, it now shows nothing. So now, it is completely unsourced (except that a blog saved a copy from the web posting). If this data can be verified as reliable, it can be restored, but until then, the 7:22 needs to go as it is backed up by no hard data. Said another way, I could post the exact same info to fastestlaps.com, only this time with 7:22.1. Some blog picks up that data and now we put it in Wikipedia. NOT the way to build a reliable encyclopedia. — Mrand Talk • C 22:54, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Jan Magnussen along with a GM factory driver, drove the ZR1 to a 7:22.4 on Oct.28, 2008. What else is there to discuss? Yes, Jan Magnussen is a professional race car driver and he lapped the track 4 seconds faster than Jim Mero, a GM engineer. These facts are posted on numerous websites, why is this a point of disagrteement? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ORYXGTO ( talk • contribs) 03:39, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
THE Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 HAS SINCE RUN A 7:22.4. at the hands of Jan Magnussen ! second ONLY to the R compound, tired Viper ACR! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.107.94.204 ( talk) 01:03, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
The times were published on Fastestlaps.com but have since been retracted. Along with the fact that GM did not release a press release of said time, unlike every other nurburgring time they have done, we can assume that the 7:22.4 time is false and never happened. The only sources still claiming this are forum oists that lead back to blogs that lead back to Fastesttimes.com, which has since removed that time from their database. -- Mwmorph ( talk) 06:50, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
There has been a new lap time which needs to be added to the unofficial lap times. The bike was ridden by Andy "Andypath" Carlile on the 11th September 2008. The bike was ridden for Fast Bikes magazine and will be in the January issue of that magazine. The bike as a P3 Unlimited Suzuki GSXR600K6 Superlite. The time for the lap was 7 minutes 17 seconds. The bike was the first of a limited edition production run of lightweight GSXR600's built by P3 Unlimited and is the exact same spec as the production bike at 153Kg wet and 120 BHP at the rear wheel.
If this could please be added that would be appreciated.
RacerX67 ( talk) 16:28, 19 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by RacerX67 ( talk • contribs) 15:18, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
-Also the fastest two motorcycle laptimes tested by PB (myself[Dale Lomas], The Baron and Andy Carlisle have been reduced by 20 seconds. The true times are 7min22.8 for the MV and 7min28 for the R1 as cited in the references. As I'm also the guy who did the testing I can email the datalogs should these be required. These are factually incorrect and wholly unrealistic. Dalomas ( talk) 09:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Please correct the bike laptimes as Dale has said your laptimes are 20 second adrift for the Performance bikes laptimes. Also please add the P3 bike as the time has been checked and is correct and currently the fastest bike to have lapped the tourist lap. If you are going to put times as fact please check them and make sure they are accurate.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by RacerX67 ( talk • contribs) 18:59, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi Guys about the Norschleife nurburgring Evo mag track times watch the vidéos , the starting point for the crono is not the same as the stop point you can add easy 5 or 6 sec on all the lap times showed for get the real laptime . . I was in Nurburg this summer , Viper laptime is true & they didn't reach it at the first lap Note to euro supercars makers : guys its swell to resale $1,000,000 cars but if you like to catch really the kings of the hill its time to stop talking & begin to work (some efforts would be appreciated ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.67.11.20 ( talk) 18:33, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
I noticed it's impossible to edit the lap time article. I understand if this is to prevent vandalism and untrue lap times from entering into the data. However, how old and outdated is the data currently on display in the article? Das Viper ( talk) 04:09, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
"suspension adjustments" should not be cited. the GTR and many other vehicles have a "sport mode" which makes the same adjustments to shocks as what was adjusted on the ACR-yet no one ever cites those. this whole "aero adjustment" "suspension adjustments" is misleading and biased. the veyron has an adjustable spoiler yet there are no citations for its times. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gray cobra ( talk • contribs) 01:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I have changed the note on the ACR's time from "suspension modifications" to "suspension adjustments" as "modifications" implies something more extensive than turning a knob on the dampers. It also more accurately reflects the cited source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.246.210 ( talk) 04:35, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Why is the Viper ACR not on the list at all? I notice the article link at the bottom highlights suspension adjustments but it comes from the factory with fully adjustable suspension. It is more of a production car than many on the list. You can go into a Dodge Dealer and purchase one just as you would any other car. Technically the ACR package is an option that is added to the car. It has full interior, a radio, air conditioning, airbags, etc. There is no roll cage and it has real glass windows. If it does not qualify as a production car I don't know how others such as the Radical do. Somehow the media (and apparently now this page as well) focus on the ZR1/GTR Nurburgring times, but ignore the time of the ACR. I didn't want to jump in and edit the page since I have never really edited much, so I thought I would reach out and see if there is a reason it is not included. Notacop ( talk) 14:01, 17 July 2009 (UTC) Notacop
Just because there's no video doesn't mean it didn't run 7:22.4. I found this article of ZR1's 7:22.4 lap time from Motor Authority. http://www.motorauthority.com/corvette-zr-1-laps-the-ring-in-7264.html. Check it out. It might look reliable. - Gohardnal ( talk) 06:14, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
I know there are a lot of questions surrounding the ZR1's 7:22.4 lap time claim and that the claim is beginning to look increasingly like a fraud. Aside from discovering that no GM press release exists for the claim and that nothing has been mentioned on Jan Magnussens web page and that no video has been produced in the 4 months since the claim was made, I have also discovered the following information on the corvetteforum web page.
A thread was started on that forum, reporting the supposed 7:22.4 lap time, just 1 day after the lap time was posted on fastestlaps.com by an anonymous submitter. How this information moved so quickly is beyond me, especially considering the insignificance of the source and his/her/it's inconspicuous nature. Link to the thread: [5]
Observe how that thread unfolds and then, importantly, observe how that thread is finally locked when another corvetteforum member obtains inside information from GM which confirms that the corvette team has not returned to the Nurburgring since recording Jim Mero's 7:26.4 lap time, clearly indicating that the 7:22.4 lap time is a fraud. Link to the final post which confirms the 7:22.4 as a hoax: [6]
In light of the lack of evidence to support the 7:22.4 lap time and given this new information from the corvetteforum web page I would strongly suggest that the ZR1's 7:22.4 lap time be removed from the list. Admin please confirm this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gp900bj ( talk • contribs) 05:20, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Update, Road&Track has confirmed the lap time to be a hoax and has issued a correction to their publication of the time:
I think this is pretty much all we need to remove the 7:22.4 from the table.
In regard to the discussion of "Production Cars" the "Non-Series" chart should include vehicles that do not meet the full homologation requirements. This gives an unfair advantage to certain low volume manufacturers in certain regions.
Cars like the Radical SR8 are not required to meet the same rules as fully homologated road cars therefore they should be classified in a different group. The UK has special relaxed requirements that allow just about anything with four wheels to be declared a passenger car. A quick glance at the Radical reveals these shortages - i.e. lack of bumpers, lack of windscreen, lack of air bags, lack of full set of reflectors, lack of energy absorbing structure, etc. The "Non-Series" chart should be re-titled :"Non-Series and Small-Series/road legal cars without full homologation". Looking at the Radical is a matter of common sense. It is a purpose built prototype race car that happened to skirt the law in the UK and be classified as a road legal car. It is hardly in the same class as a Nissan GT-R, a Corvette ZR1 or a Viper ACR.
The BBC TV series agrees with this common sense approach to what is a road car and what is a race car with a registration. They have simple common sense rules that say wether or not a car is allowed on their production car lap time leaderboard - e.g. 'The car must be able to travel over a speed bump'. Fans or employees of Radical should not dismay. They are still at the top of thier class.
You could make an arguement that that the Viper Competition Coupe race car is more of a road car than the Radical. It has a windscreen, windshield wipers, a roof, doors, bumpers, can navigate over a set of speed bumps, etc. There are certain countries and certain states in the US that allows an extremely liberal registration of vehicles. In this regard, where do you draw the line as to what a production car is? A car that meets the rules of full production homologation (i.e. no loop holes) should be called a "Production Car". Anything short of this is a "Small Series" vehicle that plays by a more liberal set of rules.
The "Non-Series" chart should be reworded to "Non-series and Small-series/road legal cars without full homologation.
Reference UK Small Series Laws - [8] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sauron22 ( talk • contribs) 23:14, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Your reference on the McLaren F1 is insufficent. This listing is as unsupported, just like the listing of Jan Magnussen's ZR1 time of 7:22.4 which didn't happen. I have not been able to find any reference that F1 time. I'm sure McLaren would have publicized this event if it actually happened and it should be quite easy to find. Part of contributing to Wikipedia is backing up your posts with strong sources. This listing coupled with the lack of any other evidence doesn't meet that criteria.
To return to the discussion of what a true series-production car is. Your comment "There are many many cars out there that don't have doors/windows/air-bags/etc" is true. But it is also true that these vehicles are not constructed under the same set of government regulations as other cars and thereby they should be classified in a different group. An automobile manufacturer has to live to a set of rules just like the manufacturers of racing cars. Different classes have different rules. Under the laws of some countries and some regions you are able to homologate and sell racing cars. There have been several purpouse built race cars that have been registered and are driven legally on the road. This is exactly what Radical is doing. The Viper ACR is built to the same laws and rules that a high volume car is. Your comment "To me the Dodge Viper ACR...is the racing version of the road car, it happens to be road legal, but it is just like the Radical a car destined for the track not the road." is incorrect. The best comparison of the Viper ACR is the Porsche GT3RS. A simple survey of the Viper and Porsche club forums reveals that the overwhelming majority of the time these cars are driven on public roads. The opposite is true of the Radical. The ACR and GT3RS were both designed, conceived and built as fully homologated street cars. They play by a much different set of rules than racing cars such as the Radical. Your comment "it really is not up to an editor of wikipedia to decide that a certain car is not worthy of being called a production car" is one that I agree with. It's not up to you or me to say if the Radical is a fully homologated passenger car. The government of the United Kingdom has a well documented set of rules that puts a line between full homologation and "Small Series" homologation. Did you read the linked reference to the Small Series manufacturers laws? Small series cars are only requred to meet half of the regulations by number per the chart on page 4. Items number 4 and 5 on the chart includes five separate "smoke and exhaust emissions" requirements. None of these things are required by Radical. In other words, they have complete flexibility to pollute and produce emissions (i.e. just like a race car). It is not reasonable to put a car that has this major advantage in the same class as the vehicles with extremely burdensome regulations regarding emissions. Here is the Small Series summary again - http://www.vca.gov.uk/additional/files/vehicle-type-approval/vehicle-type-approval/vca002.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.9.163.106 ( talk) 20:30, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I think this section does bring up some important questions about what constitutes a "Production" vehicle and whether or not that term adequately covers the type of vehicle we are aiming to display in that particular section. It is my understanding that the table for Production vehicles is essentially attempting to display the lap times for "street legal" or "road going" vehicles.
The term "Production" can be ambiguous as there are numerous manufacturers who specifically "Produce" track dedicated vehicles, many of which would not satisfy registration requirements in certain countries. Then comes another question, which country's road legislation should we apply as a standard?
The situation becomes even more complicated by the fact that the majority of these vehicles offer a high degree of component adjustability and/or chassis alteration which, when configured for track use, can make the vehicle non-compliant where it would have otherwise been compliant in a less track focused configuration. Adjustable ride height is one of the features which can result in this outcome.
I am amused by the actions of the recently discovered Chrysler employee (or associate, see section below, Conflict of Interest) and his/her repeated attempts at removing the Radical SR8 on grounds of "Not street legal". They should be more concerned about the validity of the ACR's lap time as there a plenty of indications that the Viper ACR which ran the 7:22.1 lap time was configured in a way which would have violated a key FMVSS statute making the car non-compliant. I am of course referring to the pair of front splitters which Chrysler had fitted to the ACR which violate FMVSS statute 215 regarding pedestrian safety and 2.5mph crash survivability (See Car&Driver November 2008, Page 24). Of course the splitters are removable but when fitted they contribute approximately 1/4 of the vehicles down-force and are key to eliminating under-steer.
The important question is: whether or not the "street legality" of the particular configuration which was used to obtain a lap time matters more than the vehicles production status. This would be something to think about for the future. gp900bj —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gp900bj ( talk • contribs) 12:17, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I am admittedly new to the Wikipedia system and haven't read all of the guidelines including the COI guidelines. I thank all the editors that have given me guidance so far. Each time they've given me guideance I read the links and improved my posts with better supported information. Yes, I am an employee of Chrysler and my edits regarding the Radical were intended to restore the board to what it was previously and to propose a clarification of the "Non-Series/Road Legal" chart. For several years, the Radical SR8 and other such Small-series cars were in the "Non-Series/Road Legal Cars" chart on this Wikipedia listing. The Carerra GT was at the top of the prodution car chart. Most enthusiasts and most publications see clear a difference between cars like the Radical and other full production cars. That's why they recognized the Carrera GT as the fastest production car lap time for years. That's why they recognize the ACR now. I think that's why this article was set up the way it originally was (Production vs. Non-Series/Road Legal). If someone beats the ACR with a full production car, so be it. It's bound to happen sooner or later.
All of my edits regarding the Viper ACR have only been to clarify and provide accurate information. I have tried to provide a 3rd party unbiased source for each of my posts. I just read the COI guidelines that were provided and have no problem admitting my COI. If I had understood this policy I would have declared it from the beginning. I think the other editors agree that having a COI doesn't mean you can't provide accurate information. Also, having a COI does not mean you are distorting the facts. If you can read all of my previous edits (I'm a novice and don't know if/how to do this) you would see that I have posted other manufacturers lap times. I was the first one to post the Corvette ZR1 time of 7:22 based on the Autoblog article. This is the opposite of "advancing outside intrests" and only diminishes the gap with ACR time doesn't it?. And I was also the first to post the EVO magazine shoot out with the Zonda and other cars that closed the gap with the ACR. Neither of these things could be considered "self promoting" or "distortions". My edits have all been about getting the correct information on the chart.
A classification for Non-Series or Small-Series/road legal cars is a logical and common sense approach in grouping cars like the Radical. That is exactly how this chart was used previously. I did make a mistake on one of my earlier comments about the emissions requirements and am glad to see there are other Wiki-editors reading the regulations and acknowledging the fact that there is a different set of rules for small manufacturers. In the United States there are certain states that have a more flexible set of homologation rules as well. Rather than endlessly debate this, a simple deliniation for a "Production" and "Non-Series/Small Series" should be used. There have been owners of Viper Competition Coupe race cars that have registered them for road legal use in their state. This car is a Small-series production car that is road legal. Should this guy be able to run the Nordschleife and post his time? Should a Hennesey Viper be able to run the Ring and post a time as a production car? There is an easy way to avoid confusion - full homologation.
The reason Radical is able to liberally build such a fantastic car is because it has a different set of rules and laws. Almost everyone understands this. The charts on this site would be more correct if they reflected this as well. -- Sauron22 ( talk) 16:43, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
You guys sure are going about this in a complicated way. It's very obvious that the SR8 is not designed to satisfy the same requirements as the rest of the cars on this list. Even if no information about the car's design were available, when the SR8 ran it's lap it beat out the next closest competitor that was currently on the list by nearly a full minute. You don't beat the next fastest competitor in this game by that much by following the same rules. I suppose what really needs to be decided is where a car must be road legal to count as "production". After all, if Sealand clears a space on it's deck and makes a law that Formula 1 cars are legal on it, does that count? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.94.180.63 ( talk) 18:02, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
Guess what car I found for sale? -- LiamE ( talk) 05:50, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
I have been trying to reinstate the Radical SR8 as the fastest production car for the last few days. Editor Sauron22 Special:Contributions/Sauron22 has been removing this fact. Upon looking at his edit history, I noticed that he only edits this article and the Dodge Viper article. (removing the Radical SR8 would make the Dodge Viper the fastest production car around the Nurburgring)
To me that is wrong, it is mildly disruptive - but overall nothing more than an OR and edit dispute..no big problem.
Well it was not a problem until the editor failed to log in and edited the talk page with his IP, instead of his account. Upon running whois on his IP, I found that the IP is registered to Chrysler Motors Corporation, the company that makes the Dodge Viper, the car that he is trying so hard to keep as the fastest on the list. One of the edit summaries used by the IP states # 04:34, 12 August 2008 (hist) (diff) Chrysler Headquarters and Technology Center (I changed the square footage from 4.4 million square feet to 5.4 million square feet. I work here and its posted everywhere.)
The IP in question is Special:Contributions/129.9.163.106 and the whois result is here [10]
I am not suggesting that there are any sock puppet/IP issues, there have been no attempts to use the IP to get around editing restrictions, form false consensus etc, however there is a clear conflict of interest and seeing that the Sauron account has only made edits to this article and the article of the Dodge Viper it is clearly a single purpose account with a clear agenda and an equally clear conflict of interest. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! ( talk) 23:37, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
If your facts are correct, this would constitute a clear conflict of interest and you can make a case on Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard. — Deon Steyn ( talk) 05:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I feel that the time I added is a little dubious, the only references to this I can find list the car as McLaren F1 #LMXP1 - does anyone know any more about this? The time is awesome, maybe a little too good and I would like to clarify this one way or another. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! ( talk) 12:20, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
The SPS-Automotive link does not meet the standard of a reliable third party published source. From all of the searches I've done there appears to be no other support that this lap time ever happened. -- Sauron22 ( talk) 16:02, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
The three cited sources say nothering about where the SR8 is legal. I have found a motortrend article that does (Britain only). It's here: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/convertibles/112_0708_caparo_t1_first_drive/driving_impressions.html
Unless someone has a good reason why this is not valid, I will update the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.94.180.63 ( talk) 18:33, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
Okay after some VERY boring digging around the EU statues I am a duller person but I also have a little light to shine on the subject. Type approval across the EU is automatic - ie a car approved in any member state is approved for all states - but there is a small get out clause that applies to Radicals and other cars that are approved on national schemes. I quote... "If your vehicle has obtained national type-approval, the authorities in the country in which you are applying for registration may refuse to accept the national Certificate of Conformity only (a) if it can be shown that the vehicle represents a serious hazard to road safety or the environment, and (b) the decision is properly justified." Sooooo.... it seems they are not completely automatically road legal throughout the EU but a country wishing to not accept it as legal would have the burden of proof on it to prove that the car is either a serious hazard to the environment or road safety. The first option can be discounted immediately as UK national small series testing includes emissions testing to the full Euro standards. Refusal on the second criteria is also very ulikely as the SR8 and other Radicals have to conform to the VERY stringent FIA crash and safety testing which as I understand it exceeds the standards required for normal cars. So unless an EU member state refuses to allow the registration of an SR8 and can justify its position in the face of the SR8s compliance with full EU emissions laws and its compliance with FIA and British small series safety regulaions, which seems stunningly unlikely, it is legal throughout the EU. --
LiamE (
talk)
10:47, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
What do Sport Auto have to do with anything? Did I miss something? Is this the "Sport Auto fastest times around the Ring" article? カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! ( talk) 19:17, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Note that Matthead did not respond to the comments above, however within 5 minutes of me reverting to the previous version, he undid my edit. A little more discussion, and a little less diving in to make substantial changes without consensus would be good カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! ( talk) 19:12, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
The current version of the article is mixing oranges, apples and bananas. It shows manufacturers claims on top, while results of World Championship racing events are given lowest priority. The edit and talk history proves that the article, similar to internet forums, has become a battle field of car fans, of which some even show a bias against (among others) the country the track is located in. Thus, I am going to create new articles: List of Nordschleife lap times (racing) and List of Nordschleife lap times (sport auto). -- Matthead Discuß 20:10, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
I added the Sport Auto table to the Sport Auto article. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! ( talk) 03:55, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
This source is in Japanese. Since the article is in English wouldn't it be a good idea to have the link for the source point to, say, a google-translated page? I've checked it and it comes out more or less readable. Definitely gets the point across. A translated page still has a link to the original at the top. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.11.213.246 ( talk) 03:01, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I originally browsed to this page to post a link to a digital copy of the Radical's owner's manual showing the car's requirements for a 45 minute start up procedure involving a laptop plugged into the ECU, 108 octane fuel, engine rebuilds every 30 hours, transmission inspections/rebuilds after every race, etc. - but then I realized that there is no current definition of "production" in use here. There is no hard rule to decide if any of that information is even relevant. It's no secret that there has been a lot of disagreement here recently and this is at the heart of it. Concrete requirements for what constitutes "production" need to be decided on, and a small paragraph should be added under each heading in the article to inform readers of exactly what type of vehicles are contained in the chart they're looking at. If the requirements are to be that 1. Money can buy it and 2. It can be declared road legal somewhere, then that is all very well, but since most people hear the word "production" and think "Corolla", "assembly line" or something of the like, this must be made clear to the reader, otherwise it is misleading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.11.213.206 ( talk) 04:25, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
While I realise that this does not apply to every IP editor, recently there have been lots of edits by IPs, that are subtly changing the times in the production car table - based on the locations of the IP, it seems like one user using proxies. Can other regular visitors to this page check for such edits - or can an admin semi-protect this article please. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! ( talk) 00:03, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
-- CJ DUB ( talk) 23:39, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
From wiki WF:P:
Questionable sources Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or with no editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources should only be used as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves. (See below.) Questionable sources are generally unsuitable as a basis for citing contentious claims about third parties.
1. The Porsche GT2 example is a not a good idea of what should be in this list, and should also be removed. It does not justify the inclsuion of more poor quality adds.
2. You are not an auto engineer. Neither am I, but those technologies will not make the car faster than a street prep race car like the Viper ACR. The LF-A does not introduce any new "go faster" technologies that did not already exist. Ferrari for example has been mounting engines low in cars for decades, and the Vantage V12 is the nearest comparator using a nearly identical layout, very low midmount, and is nowhere near as fast.
3. There is no evidence that this was a production car.
CJ DUB ( talk) 02:40, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
What claim? It has been verified everywhere that the Viper was a higly prepped entry and basically a race car. The LF-A is not a race car in production trim. So how does it do it exactly? Hmm, I'll leave that to you. Getting back to the article, WP:V applies, since the car has such incredible hype and the reference for the lap time does not stand up to wiki scrutiny, being an offhand remark by an Toyota engineer, with no information provided on the specifications of the car, prep, or anything really, that would allow this to be used as a citation. Buddy's assertion "toyota employee said it so it is a good citation" is complete nonsense and a poor argument. 03:46, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Gentlemen, New Lap record for the Mercedes SLS - 7:40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfkDKznMH6c
Add, please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.52.16.105 ( talk) 19:45, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Here: Talk:Lexus LFA. Please give input.
Same user as on here ( Blhsing), is still using the Toyota employee offhand remark as gospel when it doesn't even meet the wiki standard. CJ DUB ( talk) 03:24, 29 December 2009 (UTC)