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![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of List of Justices of the High Court of Australia by time in office was copied or moved into List of Justices of the High Court of Australia with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
![]() | On 2 September 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from List of Justices of the High Court of Australia to List of justices of the High Court of Australia. The result of the discussion was moved. |
This article describes Justices as being "appointed by the Prime Minister." This is incorrect, and suggests that whoever wrote it has been overly influenced by United States practices. Justices are appointed by the Governor-General in Council, on the advice of the Cabinet. The nomination of Justices for approval by the Cabinet is done by the Attorney-General. The Prime Minister plays no formal role in the process, though he will have an opinion in the Cabinet discussion, more so if he is a lawyer. But Fisher, for example, deferred entirely to Hughes in judicial appointments, as did Chifley to Evatt. Adam 12:58, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
The formatting of the tables makes it a bit of a pain to change details. Is there another type of formatting that can make this more edit friendly? Xtra 01:36, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
The title uses "Judge", the text uses "Justices" - which one should we use? enochlau ( talk) 11:10, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I've compiled a list of judges and their high schools at User:Enochlau/High Court Judges. I'm not sure it's worth including in the tables on this page (the tables are quite full already), but the info is there if anyone wants to use it. There are 4 I can't find, being Taylor, McHugh, Heydon and Crennan. enochlau ( talk) 14:09, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Could some explain the difference between "retired" and "resigned" in the reason for leaving office column? Shadow007 07:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I have removed this section as it was unsourced. JRG 13:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Many of the future Justices of the High Court, when barristers, argued cases before the High Court. Indeed, only four did not: Griffith, Barton and O'Connor (the original three members of the court, who could of course not have argued before it) and Powers, who remains the only solicitor to have been appointed to the court. Below is a list of the Justices, ordered by the number of times each appeared before the court (which appears in brackets after their name):
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Interesting list even if unsourced. Where is Heydon though? Shadow007 04:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
The table is fantastic but the internal link for Sir Alan Taylor redirects to an American historian of the same name. I wish to change it to Alan Taylor (jurist) which is the name of the article, only it does not show up when I try to edit. Can someone do it please? Doktor Waterhouse 12:23, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
So Michael Kirby retires on 2nd February according to many sources (including his wiki page) but this article [1] seems to imply that he'll pass his last judgement at 2pm on the 3rd February. Does this make his retirement the 2nd or the 3rd? How does this retire thing work in law? Is here simply cleaning up his work from the previous day (and thus, not technically working on the 3rd?) or does this constitute him working on the 3rd (and thus making that his last day?) Am I looking into this too deeply? Serrin ( talk) 10:06, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Rather than listing each and every institution of higher learning, would it be more fitting and, more importantly, relevant to name the law school from which these Justices graduated or, at the least, learned the art and science of law, considering one's law school (or law schools) are substantially more important than the universities from which one read on matters not related, or indirectly related, to the law?
I note that Susan Maree Crennan, a current puisne justice, is not as purported a graduate of the Melbourne Law School, or the law school of the University of Melbourne, but that she is a graduate of the Sydney Law School. I do note that her inclusion as a justice with legal education and training from the Melbourne Law School may be acceptable granted the fact that she earned a postgraduate diploma in constitutional history; however, as the diploma or, more generally, degree was in history (Postgrad. Dip. Hist.) and not law, according to the High Court of Australia's website, and given the above request to change alma matre or alma matre to law school(s), it seems reasonable that Crennan have the University of Melbourne removed from her entry. -- Qwerty Binary ( talk) 08:39, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
At the swearing-in ceremony for Justice Nettle, the Attorney-General referred to Justice Nettle as the 50th High Court Justice. The transcript is here. Wikipedia lists him as the 51st. Unless the Attorney (or rather his speechwriter) made an error, it seems that for some reason Albert Piddington is not considered to have been a High Court Judge. This is the only other possible explanation.
Is there reason to doubt that Piddington was a High Court Justice? His article indicates he received a commission but did not sit on the Court. Section 72 of the Constitution simply says that a Justice is appointed by the Governor-General in Council; so perhaps the commission is enough. The current High Court of Australia Act provides for an oath or affirmation to be made before "proceeding to discharge the duties... of office". But this seems predicated on the person being already a Justice. I am not sure what applied at the time of Piddington's appointment.
Given that the Commonwealth's Attorney-General appears to have publicly suggested (albeit impliedly) that Piddington was not Justice, it warrants consideration here I would have thought. Shadow007 ( talk) 02:17, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Request received to merge articles: List of Justices of the High Court of Australia by time in office into List of Justices of the High Court of Australia; dated: January 2018.
Proposer's Rationale: The list by time in office essentially duplicates the list of Justices but is sorted by time in office. I propose to merge the list by time in office by modifying the list of justices to include a column "time in office" and making the table sortable. Apart from anything else it would remove the need to edit the list by time in office when an incumbent judge moves up the list. I don't expect it to be controversial, but thought I would include a discussion in case there were other views. Find bruce ( talk) 10:21, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
Below is a discussion from my talk page which I have copied here so that other editors can have their input. To me the column is a bit of a mess & there does not appear to be any authoritative source, nor any proper basis for deciding whether a person should be treated as retiring or resigning. Some such as Evatt are clear while other such as Webb appear to have no basis. The distinction fails to impart anything useful in the case of Gibbs. Similarly French had a retirement ceremony ( [2016] HCATrans 293) not a resignation ceremony. I am leaning towards Shadow007's suggestion of deleting the column as it doesn't communicate any useful information. Find bruce ( talk) 07:06, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Although the motivation for Gibbs leaving the Court was the impending operation of section 72 of the Constitution, he actually resigned on 5 February, one day prior to the operation of section 72 on 6 February (his birth date being 7 February). It is clear that this was done in order to ensure that Mason could be sworn in immediately (6 February being a Friday) rather than the following Monday.
Consistent with how the resignation/retirement part has been dealt with in the article, I believe this should be recorded as a resignation not a retirement because he would have had to formally resign his commission on 5 February rather than simply allow the Constitution to operate on 6 February. Although it was a matter of one day, there seems to me to be no reason to distinguish this situation from those of Kirby and French, for example, whose resignations were motivated by the impending operation of section 72 but chose to do so a few weeks earlier in order to allow replacement justices to commence at the beginning of the Court's term. Shadow007 ( talk) 01:47, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Shadow007 its an interesting point that I will have a think about. If that approach were adopted, wouldn't it follow that every "retirement" before then would in fact be a resignation? The designation of retirement / resignation seems to me to be a bit random. I find it hard to accept that Rich's cessation of office aged 87 was anything but a retirement. Similarly Starke aged 79. On the other end of the scale, Gaudron, aged 60, would appear to be a resignation. More fundamentally are you aware of any authoritative list that deals with the issue ? Find bruce ( talk) 02:22, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
- @ Find bruce: I am not aware of any source that definitively establishes the difference. There are two relevant time periods; first, prior to mandatory retirement and, second, after mandatory retirement. In relation to the first period, I think the difference comes down to the career the Justice had after leaving the Court. So Griffith held no substantial positions after leaving, therefore is said to have retired, whereas Isaacs became Governor-General and so is said to have resigned in order to take up that office. It appears that this has been very inconsistently applied. For example, Charles Powers is listed as resigning but there is nothing in his article to suggest he held any substantial positions after leaving the Court, therefore I think that is a retirement.
- In relation to the second period, I think the difference is whether the Justice leaves the Court prior to the operation of section 72 and mandatory retirement. Leaving aside Gibbs, all Justices who served up until the day before their 70th birthday (Mason, Brennan, McHugh, Callinan, Gummow, Heydon, Hayne) would be retirements whereas the other judges that resigned before their 70th birthdays (Wilson, Deane, Dawson, Toohey, Gaudron, Kirby, Crennan, French) would be resignations. The article is inconsistent here too because Kirby and French are currently listed as retirements although previous versions of the article (which included an edit by me re French which was later changed) had both of these as resignations. Similarly, Gaudron was previously a resignation and then was edited to a retirement at some point. I have not tracked down all the relevant edits.
- It might be that the column is rather pointless. For example, List of Justices of the Supreme Court of the United States does not contain such a column. It could perhaps be replaced by a "Notes" column where significant things such as whether the Justice died in office or resigned to take up another positions, like Governor-General, could be noted. Shadow007 ( talk) 03:39, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
In the absence of any objection, I have taken the suggestion by Shadow007 & replaced the column with notes, covering those who resigned for notable reasons, Piddington, Isaacs & Evatt & those who died in office. Find bruce ( talk) 07:38, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
I was thinking of replacing the current graphical timeline with something similar to below:
Any thoughts? Happy to change the colours. Bookscale ( talk) 14:22, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
I had the page title moved back (after a user moved it earlier this month with no discussion) so "Justice" is spelt with a capital "J" - this is what is in the Australian Constitution, and is entirely consistent with the Court's style guide about how to address a member of the Court. Any further attempts to move the page should be the subject of discussion. Deus et lex ( talk) 23:41, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Per several other similar RMs involving MOS:JOBTITLES, thus discounting any WP:CANVASSing ( closed by non-admin page mover) — DaxServer ( t · m · e · c) 17:53, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
– Normally I'd be bold and move these pages myself. However, there has been some considerable resistance to moving the High Court of Australia page. The fact of the matter is MOS:JOBTITLES is unambiguously clear as to how this page title should be formatted ("justices" is a common noun when it's plural).
How things are written in the Constitution of Australia (or any other country's constitution for that matter) does not override Wikipedia's own manual of style. If it did, we'd have nearly 200 different style rules we'd have to conform to. For comparison, look at some similar pages that are in compliance without any major controversy:
Hopefully, this discussion can settle this issue for good. Woko Sapien ( talk) 15:47, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
Please leave the Australian page alone. The style is "Justices" with a capital j. MOSJOBTITLES does not say otherwise. It is not a common noun, it is the actual name of the office (as opposed to the generic "judge" used for other courts, including the other superior courts in Australia, or the title "Justice X") - see example here for legislative usage. Compare the Canadian example where "judge" or "justice" (lower case) is used interchangeably here. The discussion cited is not a precedent to change this where the style is clearly set out in governing legislation, and it is not "definitive" by any means. Deus et lex ( talk) 10:23, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
Responding to https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:List_of_justices_of_the_High_Court_of_Australia&diff=prev&oldid=1174498761 by Deus et lex:
I do not doubt it looks wrong to you. If you have spent a lot of time dealing with this subject, you are indeed a subject matter expert and the vast majority of sources you read capitalize the word justice. Most of those who have contributed here are not subject matter experts, but are to various degrees expert in Wikipedia style. Our objective is to help Wikipedia be consistent so that Wikipedia as a whole looks credible. One of the first big style issues I dealt with on Wikipedia was whether or not the common names of bird species (but not other animals) should be capitalized. I participated in developing WP:BIRDCON and it was highly fractious and some editors said they would stop working on Wikipedia if they couldn't capitalize like their bird books did. It may look wrong to you to use the capitalization we promote on Wikipedia, and if I were writing in the Australian justice system, I would follow AGLC style, but here we should use lower case. SchreiberBike | ⌨ 00:29, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of List of Justices of the High Court of Australia by time in office was copied or moved into List of Justices of the High Court of Australia with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
![]() | On 2 September 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from List of Justices of the High Court of Australia to List of justices of the High Court of Australia. The result of the discussion was moved. |
This article describes Justices as being "appointed by the Prime Minister." This is incorrect, and suggests that whoever wrote it has been overly influenced by United States practices. Justices are appointed by the Governor-General in Council, on the advice of the Cabinet. The nomination of Justices for approval by the Cabinet is done by the Attorney-General. The Prime Minister plays no formal role in the process, though he will have an opinion in the Cabinet discussion, more so if he is a lawyer. But Fisher, for example, deferred entirely to Hughes in judicial appointments, as did Chifley to Evatt. Adam 12:58, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
The formatting of the tables makes it a bit of a pain to change details. Is there another type of formatting that can make this more edit friendly? Xtra 01:36, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
The title uses "Judge", the text uses "Justices" - which one should we use? enochlau ( talk) 11:10, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I've compiled a list of judges and their high schools at User:Enochlau/High Court Judges. I'm not sure it's worth including in the tables on this page (the tables are quite full already), but the info is there if anyone wants to use it. There are 4 I can't find, being Taylor, McHugh, Heydon and Crennan. enochlau ( talk) 14:09, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Could some explain the difference between "retired" and "resigned" in the reason for leaving office column? Shadow007 07:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I have removed this section as it was unsourced. JRG 13:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Many of the future Justices of the High Court, when barristers, argued cases before the High Court. Indeed, only four did not: Griffith, Barton and O'Connor (the original three members of the court, who could of course not have argued before it) and Powers, who remains the only solicitor to have been appointed to the court. Below is a list of the Justices, ordered by the number of times each appeared before the court (which appears in brackets after their name):
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Interesting list even if unsourced. Where is Heydon though? Shadow007 04:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
The table is fantastic but the internal link for Sir Alan Taylor redirects to an American historian of the same name. I wish to change it to Alan Taylor (jurist) which is the name of the article, only it does not show up when I try to edit. Can someone do it please? Doktor Waterhouse 12:23, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
So Michael Kirby retires on 2nd February according to many sources (including his wiki page) but this article [1] seems to imply that he'll pass his last judgement at 2pm on the 3rd February. Does this make his retirement the 2nd or the 3rd? How does this retire thing work in law? Is here simply cleaning up his work from the previous day (and thus, not technically working on the 3rd?) or does this constitute him working on the 3rd (and thus making that his last day?) Am I looking into this too deeply? Serrin ( talk) 10:06, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Rather than listing each and every institution of higher learning, would it be more fitting and, more importantly, relevant to name the law school from which these Justices graduated or, at the least, learned the art and science of law, considering one's law school (or law schools) are substantially more important than the universities from which one read on matters not related, or indirectly related, to the law?
I note that Susan Maree Crennan, a current puisne justice, is not as purported a graduate of the Melbourne Law School, or the law school of the University of Melbourne, but that she is a graduate of the Sydney Law School. I do note that her inclusion as a justice with legal education and training from the Melbourne Law School may be acceptable granted the fact that she earned a postgraduate diploma in constitutional history; however, as the diploma or, more generally, degree was in history (Postgrad. Dip. Hist.) and not law, according to the High Court of Australia's website, and given the above request to change alma matre or alma matre to law school(s), it seems reasonable that Crennan have the University of Melbourne removed from her entry. -- Qwerty Binary ( talk) 08:39, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
At the swearing-in ceremony for Justice Nettle, the Attorney-General referred to Justice Nettle as the 50th High Court Justice. The transcript is here. Wikipedia lists him as the 51st. Unless the Attorney (or rather his speechwriter) made an error, it seems that for some reason Albert Piddington is not considered to have been a High Court Judge. This is the only other possible explanation.
Is there reason to doubt that Piddington was a High Court Justice? His article indicates he received a commission but did not sit on the Court. Section 72 of the Constitution simply says that a Justice is appointed by the Governor-General in Council; so perhaps the commission is enough. The current High Court of Australia Act provides for an oath or affirmation to be made before "proceeding to discharge the duties... of office". But this seems predicated on the person being already a Justice. I am not sure what applied at the time of Piddington's appointment.
Given that the Commonwealth's Attorney-General appears to have publicly suggested (albeit impliedly) that Piddington was not Justice, it warrants consideration here I would have thought. Shadow007 ( talk) 02:17, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Request received to merge articles: List of Justices of the High Court of Australia by time in office into List of Justices of the High Court of Australia; dated: January 2018.
Proposer's Rationale: The list by time in office essentially duplicates the list of Justices but is sorted by time in office. I propose to merge the list by time in office by modifying the list of justices to include a column "time in office" and making the table sortable. Apart from anything else it would remove the need to edit the list by time in office when an incumbent judge moves up the list. I don't expect it to be controversial, but thought I would include a discussion in case there were other views. Find bruce ( talk) 10:21, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
Below is a discussion from my talk page which I have copied here so that other editors can have their input. To me the column is a bit of a mess & there does not appear to be any authoritative source, nor any proper basis for deciding whether a person should be treated as retiring or resigning. Some such as Evatt are clear while other such as Webb appear to have no basis. The distinction fails to impart anything useful in the case of Gibbs. Similarly French had a retirement ceremony ( [2016] HCATrans 293) not a resignation ceremony. I am leaning towards Shadow007's suggestion of deleting the column as it doesn't communicate any useful information. Find bruce ( talk) 07:06, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Although the motivation for Gibbs leaving the Court was the impending operation of section 72 of the Constitution, he actually resigned on 5 February, one day prior to the operation of section 72 on 6 February (his birth date being 7 February). It is clear that this was done in order to ensure that Mason could be sworn in immediately (6 February being a Friday) rather than the following Monday.
Consistent with how the resignation/retirement part has been dealt with in the article, I believe this should be recorded as a resignation not a retirement because he would have had to formally resign his commission on 5 February rather than simply allow the Constitution to operate on 6 February. Although it was a matter of one day, there seems to me to be no reason to distinguish this situation from those of Kirby and French, for example, whose resignations were motivated by the impending operation of section 72 but chose to do so a few weeks earlier in order to allow replacement justices to commence at the beginning of the Court's term. Shadow007 ( talk) 01:47, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Shadow007 its an interesting point that I will have a think about. If that approach were adopted, wouldn't it follow that every "retirement" before then would in fact be a resignation? The designation of retirement / resignation seems to me to be a bit random. I find it hard to accept that Rich's cessation of office aged 87 was anything but a retirement. Similarly Starke aged 79. On the other end of the scale, Gaudron, aged 60, would appear to be a resignation. More fundamentally are you aware of any authoritative list that deals with the issue ? Find bruce ( talk) 02:22, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
- @ Find bruce: I am not aware of any source that definitively establishes the difference. There are two relevant time periods; first, prior to mandatory retirement and, second, after mandatory retirement. In relation to the first period, I think the difference comes down to the career the Justice had after leaving the Court. So Griffith held no substantial positions after leaving, therefore is said to have retired, whereas Isaacs became Governor-General and so is said to have resigned in order to take up that office. It appears that this has been very inconsistently applied. For example, Charles Powers is listed as resigning but there is nothing in his article to suggest he held any substantial positions after leaving the Court, therefore I think that is a retirement.
- In relation to the second period, I think the difference is whether the Justice leaves the Court prior to the operation of section 72 and mandatory retirement. Leaving aside Gibbs, all Justices who served up until the day before their 70th birthday (Mason, Brennan, McHugh, Callinan, Gummow, Heydon, Hayne) would be retirements whereas the other judges that resigned before their 70th birthdays (Wilson, Deane, Dawson, Toohey, Gaudron, Kirby, Crennan, French) would be resignations. The article is inconsistent here too because Kirby and French are currently listed as retirements although previous versions of the article (which included an edit by me re French which was later changed) had both of these as resignations. Similarly, Gaudron was previously a resignation and then was edited to a retirement at some point. I have not tracked down all the relevant edits.
- It might be that the column is rather pointless. For example, List of Justices of the Supreme Court of the United States does not contain such a column. It could perhaps be replaced by a "Notes" column where significant things such as whether the Justice died in office or resigned to take up another positions, like Governor-General, could be noted. Shadow007 ( talk) 03:39, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
In the absence of any objection, I have taken the suggestion by Shadow007 & replaced the column with notes, covering those who resigned for notable reasons, Piddington, Isaacs & Evatt & those who died in office. Find bruce ( talk) 07:38, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
I was thinking of replacing the current graphical timeline with something similar to below:
Any thoughts? Happy to change the colours. Bookscale ( talk) 14:22, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
I had the page title moved back (after a user moved it earlier this month with no discussion) so "Justice" is spelt with a capital "J" - this is what is in the Australian Constitution, and is entirely consistent with the Court's style guide about how to address a member of the Court. Any further attempts to move the page should be the subject of discussion. Deus et lex ( talk) 23:41, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Per several other similar RMs involving MOS:JOBTITLES, thus discounting any WP:CANVASSing ( closed by non-admin page mover) — DaxServer ( t · m · e · c) 17:53, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
– Normally I'd be bold and move these pages myself. However, there has been some considerable resistance to moving the High Court of Australia page. The fact of the matter is MOS:JOBTITLES is unambiguously clear as to how this page title should be formatted ("justices" is a common noun when it's plural).
How things are written in the Constitution of Australia (or any other country's constitution for that matter) does not override Wikipedia's own manual of style. If it did, we'd have nearly 200 different style rules we'd have to conform to. For comparison, look at some similar pages that are in compliance without any major controversy:
Hopefully, this discussion can settle this issue for good. Woko Sapien ( talk) 15:47, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
Please leave the Australian page alone. The style is "Justices" with a capital j. MOSJOBTITLES does not say otherwise. It is not a common noun, it is the actual name of the office (as opposed to the generic "judge" used for other courts, including the other superior courts in Australia, or the title "Justice X") - see example here for legislative usage. Compare the Canadian example where "judge" or "justice" (lower case) is used interchangeably here. The discussion cited is not a precedent to change this where the style is clearly set out in governing legislation, and it is not "definitive" by any means. Deus et lex ( talk) 10:23, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
Responding to https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:List_of_justices_of_the_High_Court_of_Australia&diff=prev&oldid=1174498761 by Deus et lex:
I do not doubt it looks wrong to you. If you have spent a lot of time dealing with this subject, you are indeed a subject matter expert and the vast majority of sources you read capitalize the word justice. Most of those who have contributed here are not subject matter experts, but are to various degrees expert in Wikipedia style. Our objective is to help Wikipedia be consistent so that Wikipedia as a whole looks credible. One of the first big style issues I dealt with on Wikipedia was whether or not the common names of bird species (but not other animals) should be capitalized. I participated in developing WP:BIRDCON and it was highly fractious and some editors said they would stop working on Wikipedia if they couldn't capitalize like their bird books did. It may look wrong to you to use the capitalization we promote on Wikipedia, and if I were writing in the Australian justice system, I would follow AGLC style, but here we should use lower case. SchreiberBike | ⌨ 00:29, 10 September 2023 (UTC)