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I reverted these edits because I believe them to be biased. While I think there are some things that need to be corrected in the article, I think that this swings things too far from one perspective to another. While In the Land of Israel may have need to be corrected as a section heading, I think to switch to In the Levant & the removal of historical Jewish kingdoms went too far. We deal with changing place names all the time, such as the case with Poland & Ukraine. I think we can accommodate what was historically called Kingdoms of Israel and Judah.
To remove these kingdoms is just absurd.
I include the references here to illustrate that cited material was removed.
I expect this to be initially a fast moving discussion. Unfortunately, I need to work at this time, & will not be able to respond for many hours.
Peaceray ( talk) 15:23, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
"... the Persian period (ca. sixth to fourth cent. BCE) has been also characterized as the formative phase of early Judaism and its normative scriptures.P.3 Or
"After the exile, exclusivistic Yahwism became the norm. Yahwism now developed into early Judaism, the religion practised by the Jews during the Persian period (539–333 BCE) ..."[1] Iskandar323 ( talk) 20:13, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
... the name “Israel” covers a wide diversity of social and political entities over the course of many centuries. The first attestation of the name outside the Bible (on the Egyptian stela of Merneptah, c. 1208 bce) seems to refer at most to some ill-defined tribal federation. It then served for at least two different monarchies and later again as a social or religious title for the people who inhabited the Achaemenid (Persian) province of Yehud.
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link) states: The settlement process may have started in the final phase of the Late Bronze Age (the late thirteenth or early twelfth centuries b.c.e.), accelerated in the early Iron I (the late twelfth to mid-eleventh century), and reached its peak in the late Iron I (the late eleventh and first half of the tenth centuries b.c.e.). [...] The wave of settlement of the Iron I continued undisturbed to the Iron IIA, when the people of the highlands constituted part of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. This makes it possible to label the Iron I population in the hill country “Israelite.”
Jews .. or Jewish people are an ethnoreligious group and nation originating from the Israelites and Hebrews. As the Jew (word) article states,
The English term Jew originates in the Biblical Hebrew word Yehudi, meaning "from the Kingdom of Judah".
Hebrew people are mostly considered synonymous with the Semitic-speaking Israelites, especially in the pre- monarchic period when they were still nomadic. However, in some instances it may also be used in a wider sense, referring to the Phoenicians, or to other ancient groups, such as the group known as Shasu of Yhw on the eve of the Bronze Age collapse, which appears 34 times within 32 verses of the Hebrew Bible. It is sometimes regarded as an ethnonym and sometimes not.
By the time of the Roman Empire, Greek Hebraios could refer to the Jews in general, as Strong's Hebrew Dictionary puts it, "any of the Jewish Nation", and at other times more specifically to the Jews living in Judea. [...]
In Armenian, Italian, Greek, the Kurdish languages, Old French, Serbian, Russian, Romanian and a few other languages, the transfer of the name from "Hebrew" to "Jew" never took place, and "Hebrew" is the primary word used for a Jew.
With the revival of the Hebrew language and the emergence of the Hebrew Yishuv, the term has been applied to the Jewish people of this re-emerging society in Israel or the Jewish people in general.
References
Peaceray, where exactly in Williamson, H. G. M. (2015-09-03), History of Ancient Israel, Oxford University Press,
doi:
10.1093/acrefore/9780199340378.013.20 are you finding evidence supporting the Tribes of Israel for inclusion here? Because I see the word tribes used once, and not in reference to a kingdom but rather a diaspora (Historically, there are two features of the exilic period that are not always as well appreciated as they should be. In Babylon itself the Babylonians adopted a new policy with regard to displaced peoples that distinguishes them from the Assyrians and without which it is questionable whether the community would have survived at all. Exiled communities were generally settled together rather than completely dispersed among the new host population (contrast the practice in Assyria, which led to total assimilation over time: the “ten lost tribes”).
). Im still checking the others, but please do be clear on the exact locations and quotations that support the existence of such a kingdom as a piece of factual information and not religious dogma.
nableezy -
06:16, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
The first attestation of the name outside the Bible (on the Egyptian stela of Merneptah, c. 1208 bce) seems to refer at most to some ill-defined tribal federation. It then served for at least two different monarchies and later again as a social or religious title for the people who inhabited the Achaemenid (Persian) province of Yehud.The subscription version then goes onto say
The name “Israel” here carries a written sign to indicate that it refers to an ethnic group (rather than a geographical indication), ...&
By the time “Israel” appears again in extrabiblical sources in Aramaic, Moabite, and Akkadian, it refers to what is typically called the northern kingdom of Israel.
The victory stele of Merneptah dates to the end of the thirteenth century B.C.E. amd was inscribed in two places .... The inscription contains the line
Israel is laid waste and his seed it not;
a possible earlier reference has been identified in a text from the reign of Rameses II. Thereafter, no reference to either Judah or Israel appears until the ninth century.That same paragraph lists three ninth century sources:
the Aramaean stele from Tel Dan, inscriptions of SHALMANESER III of Assyria, and the stela of Mesha of Moab.The article goes on to say that
From the early eighth century onward, the kingdoms of Israel and Judah are both mentioned some-what regularly in Assyrian and subsequently Babylonian sources, ...The article then goes on detail what those sources say & how they relate to biblical texts. For instance,
the Aramaean Tel Dan stela, ... mentions the "king of the House of David". There is also much discussion in the "Background and Early History" about how the archeological evidence differs from the biblical narrative. This section also states
While the initial stages of this process remain obscure, one can trace a transformation of the settlement pattern in the central hills of Palestine and Israel. From the pattern of rural villages that characterized Iron Age I (twelfth to tenth centuries) there emerged an urban-rural matrix, reflecting the appearance and formation of small kingdoms in the central hill zone.
"ill-defined tribal federation", per the first source, falls pretty short of a state. Iskandar323 ( talk) 09:14, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I reverted these edits because I believe them to be biased. While I think there are some things that need to be corrected in the article, I think that this swings things too far from one perspective to another. While In the Land of Israel may have need to be corrected as a section heading, I think to switch to In the Levant & the removal of historical Jewish kingdoms went too far. We deal with changing place names all the time, such as the case with Poland & Ukraine. I think we can accommodate what was historically called Kingdoms of Israel and Judah.
To remove these kingdoms is just absurd.
I include the references here to illustrate that cited material was removed.
I expect this to be initially a fast moving discussion. Unfortunately, I need to work at this time, & will not be able to respond for many hours.
Peaceray ( talk) 15:23, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
"... the Persian period (ca. sixth to fourth cent. BCE) has been also characterized as the formative phase of early Judaism and its normative scriptures.P.3 Or
"After the exile, exclusivistic Yahwism became the norm. Yahwism now developed into early Judaism, the religion practised by the Jews during the Persian period (539–333 BCE) ..."[1] Iskandar323 ( talk) 20:13, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
... the name “Israel” covers a wide diversity of social and political entities over the course of many centuries. The first attestation of the name outside the Bible (on the Egyptian stela of Merneptah, c. 1208 bce) seems to refer at most to some ill-defined tribal federation. It then served for at least two different monarchies and later again as a social or religious title for the people who inhabited the Achaemenid (Persian) province of Yehud.
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link) states: The settlement process may have started in the final phase of the Late Bronze Age (the late thirteenth or early twelfth centuries b.c.e.), accelerated in the early Iron I (the late twelfth to mid-eleventh century), and reached its peak in the late Iron I (the late eleventh and first half of the tenth centuries b.c.e.). [...] The wave of settlement of the Iron I continued undisturbed to the Iron IIA, when the people of the highlands constituted part of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. This makes it possible to label the Iron I population in the hill country “Israelite.”
Jews .. or Jewish people are an ethnoreligious group and nation originating from the Israelites and Hebrews. As the Jew (word) article states,
The English term Jew originates in the Biblical Hebrew word Yehudi, meaning "from the Kingdom of Judah".
Hebrew people are mostly considered synonymous with the Semitic-speaking Israelites, especially in the pre- monarchic period when they were still nomadic. However, in some instances it may also be used in a wider sense, referring to the Phoenicians, or to other ancient groups, such as the group known as Shasu of Yhw on the eve of the Bronze Age collapse, which appears 34 times within 32 verses of the Hebrew Bible. It is sometimes regarded as an ethnonym and sometimes not.
By the time of the Roman Empire, Greek Hebraios could refer to the Jews in general, as Strong's Hebrew Dictionary puts it, "any of the Jewish Nation", and at other times more specifically to the Jews living in Judea. [...]
In Armenian, Italian, Greek, the Kurdish languages, Old French, Serbian, Russian, Romanian and a few other languages, the transfer of the name from "Hebrew" to "Jew" never took place, and "Hebrew" is the primary word used for a Jew.
With the revival of the Hebrew language and the emergence of the Hebrew Yishuv, the term has been applied to the Jewish people of this re-emerging society in Israel or the Jewish people in general.
References
Peaceray, where exactly in Williamson, H. G. M. (2015-09-03), History of Ancient Israel, Oxford University Press,
doi:
10.1093/acrefore/9780199340378.013.20 are you finding evidence supporting the Tribes of Israel for inclusion here? Because I see the word tribes used once, and not in reference to a kingdom but rather a diaspora (Historically, there are two features of the exilic period that are not always as well appreciated as they should be. In Babylon itself the Babylonians adopted a new policy with regard to displaced peoples that distinguishes them from the Assyrians and without which it is questionable whether the community would have survived at all. Exiled communities were generally settled together rather than completely dispersed among the new host population (contrast the practice in Assyria, which led to total assimilation over time: the “ten lost tribes”).
). Im still checking the others, but please do be clear on the exact locations and quotations that support the existence of such a kingdom as a piece of factual information and not religious dogma.
nableezy -
06:16, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
The first attestation of the name outside the Bible (on the Egyptian stela of Merneptah, c. 1208 bce) seems to refer at most to some ill-defined tribal federation. It then served for at least two different monarchies and later again as a social or religious title for the people who inhabited the Achaemenid (Persian) province of Yehud.The subscription version then goes onto say
The name “Israel” here carries a written sign to indicate that it refers to an ethnic group (rather than a geographical indication), ...&
By the time “Israel” appears again in extrabiblical sources in Aramaic, Moabite, and Akkadian, it refers to what is typically called the northern kingdom of Israel.
The victory stele of Merneptah dates to the end of the thirteenth century B.C.E. amd was inscribed in two places .... The inscription contains the line
Israel is laid waste and his seed it not;
a possible earlier reference has been identified in a text from the reign of Rameses II. Thereafter, no reference to either Judah or Israel appears until the ninth century.That same paragraph lists three ninth century sources:
the Aramaean stele from Tel Dan, inscriptions of SHALMANESER III of Assyria, and the stela of Mesha of Moab.The article goes on to say that
From the early eighth century onward, the kingdoms of Israel and Judah are both mentioned some-what regularly in Assyrian and subsequently Babylonian sources, ...The article then goes on detail what those sources say & how they relate to biblical texts. For instance,
the Aramaean Tel Dan stela, ... mentions the "king of the House of David". There is also much discussion in the "Background and Early History" about how the archeological evidence differs from the biblical narrative. This section also states
While the initial stages of this process remain obscure, one can trace a transformation of the settlement pattern in the central hills of Palestine and Israel. From the pattern of rural villages that characterized Iron Age I (twelfth to tenth centuries) there emerged an urban-rural matrix, reflecting the appearance and formation of small kingdoms in the central hill zone.
"ill-defined tribal federation", per the first source, falls pretty short of a state. Iskandar323 ( talk) 09:14, 14 April 2023 (UTC)