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![]() | On 7 October 2012, it was proposed that this article be moved to List of Jewish rulers in the Land of Israel. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
Pretty obvious -- even the lead reads as though the biblical accounts are historical fact. Dougweller ( talk) 19:06, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
The "it was kept in AFD, therefore we can never change it again" argument is even weaker here than it usually is since the closer specifically stated that neutrality issues should be fixed through editing. The primary neutrality issue was that the article was an obvious attempt to make a political point about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict by creating a pretended continuity from Abraham to (now) Bibi, and we can begin (though not finish) addressing that issue by removing the modern political leaders. However, even pretending that this wasn't created with a political goal by a single-purpose activist account, it's still just a bad article that needs enormous amounts of work to even begin to be acceptable. Who is a "Jewish leader"? Is it, as JethroB states, a leader who is Jewish? Then why isn't Tzipi Livni here? Indeed, why not Meir Kahane? And if you'll argue that those two aren't official enough or don't have enough power, why the heck is Matityahu here, who, as far as official positions go, was just a regular cohen? If what we're really going for is "leaders of Jews," since we've got Egypt and Babylon here as well and ignoring the "Israel" bit, why don't we list the Baal Shem Tov? The excuse that political and religious power were conflated in some periods can only go so far; they're clearly not conflated now or in many of the other periods on this list. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 04:06, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus. -- BDD ( talk) 19:41, 22 October 2012 (UTC) ( non-admin closure)
List of Jewish leaders in the Land of Israel → List of Jewish rulers in the Land of Israel – This should address Roscelese's concerns above and narrow the scope to include those who had authority as rulers or an appointment to rule as governor, rather than a leader of a movement, even if not the official person in power. Relisted. BDD ( talk) 19:41, 15 October 2012 (UTC) -- Jethro B 04:19, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
2 Kings 18:9 mentions King Shalmaneser http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Kings+18&version=NIV | Which Shalmaneser is it (there were at least 5)
Twillisjr ( talk) 04:56, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
The failure of the requested move did not end the discussion over the article's scope. If no one wants to make the article encyclopedic, it will simply have to be nominated for deletion again, and that would be unsatisfying for everyone. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 06:50, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
I agree that the list should be restricted to jewish leaders, in the area of Israel, but think that there are a few dissagreements from the way you are interpreting things
For those jews far away, who maybe leaders in the diaspora, I agree, they can be excised. Egyptian/babylonian ones I think should be discussed to see if they meet point #2 above, but I can see good argument for removing them, as I do agree this is not "leaders of jews" but "leaders in israel" Gaijin42 ( talk) 16:50, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Well, types of leadership have changed significantly in the past thousand years. Certainly, I would agree that popes should not be listed as american leaders. But if the president delegated authority to rule catholics (some sort of catholic Shaira law?) then it could be. Beyond that, certainly there were multiple simultaneous autonomous (or at least vassal state) divisions within the land of israel weren't there? The entire area was not consistently ruled by a single king (although that single king may have ruled what was named israel at any given time).
frankly, I dont have the background knowledge to comment on any particular person. My objection was more that with such a massive change in one edit, I do not think proper consideration for each entry that it was not meeting the criteria of the article. Many of them may need to ultimately be removed, but each should be given proper consideration. Gaijin42 ( talk) 17:38, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
3O Response: This article is flawed at the outset, and clarifying it will help in the discussion. The flaw? The title refers to the proper noun
Land of Israel, but the first line (defining the article) refers to the modern state of
Israel. You resolve this by making
Land of Israel part of the parameter in the lede. (My gosh, Land of Israel is not even linked.) Once you properly make Land of Israel the geographic scope, you restrict the inclusions of names in this list to those notable names contained in the Land of Israel article or the various sub-articles mentioned in Land of Israel (for example:
Kingdom of Israel (Samaria)). And since modern Israel is mentioned in Land of Israel, you can include modern names. But I recommend that other lists, such as
List of Prime Ministers of Israel be used as hatnotes rather than duplicating such listings here. –
S. Rich (
talk) 18:30, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
This article has been protected from editing for one week to try to generate talk page discussion of the disputed content. Please follow the WP:BRD guideline. You may also wish to consider dispute resolution ( WP:DR). Mark Arsten ( talk) 04:27, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
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The following is a list of Jewish political leaders in what is now the State of Israel. The PatriarchsIn the Land of GoshenEven though the Bible does not mention it explicitly, perhaps it can be assumed that the following names, the descendants of Ephraim, led the Israelites in Egypt (Chronicles 7:20-21): Shutelah, Bered, Tahat, Eladah, Tahat, Zabad, Shutelah The Sinai Period
The Judges
House of Saul
House of David
After Rehoboam reigned three years (1 Chronicles 11:17), the kingdom was divided in two - the northern kingdom of Israel under Jeroboam, with its capital, first in Shechem (Nablus), then Tirzah, and finally Samaria, and ruled by a series of dynasties beginning with Jeroboam; and the southern kingdom of Judah with its capital still at Jerusalem and still ruled by the House of David. The following list contains the kings of Judah with the kings of Israel in the summaries:
House of David in the Babylonia Captivity
House of David after the Captivity
References The High Priests of the House of AaronThe High Priests had ruled Israel uninterruptedly since the time of Aaron the first priest. While Israel was still ruled by Persia, and after the death of Hananiah, apparently, the High Priests were the sole rulers of the people for a period of approximately 300 years. The following names and information were taken from the “Jewish Encyclopedia” (ed. Isidore Singer, 1905) under the section “High Priest” beginning with Jehoiada (#34) taking both columns into account, and from the chronological section of the “History of Israel Until 1880” (Keter Publishing House, 1971).
Hasmonean dynasty 168–37 BCE![]() The Maccabees founded the Hasmonean dynasty, which ruled from 168 BCE - 37 BCE, reasserting the Jewish religion and expanding the boundaries of the Land of Israel by conquest. [1] In the post-Maccabean period the high priest was looked upon as exercising in all things, political, legal, and sacerdotal, the supreme authority. [2]
Herodian dynasty (37 BCE – 70 CE)![]()
After Archelaus and during the intervening period, the Sanhedrin, founded by Ezra, became the sole rulers of the Jewish people in Judea in conjunction with the High Priest. The heads, or nesiim, of the Sanhedrin beginning in 20 BCE, was Hillel the Elder, his son Shimon, and his son Gamaliel I whose rule extended into the reign of [3]: ![]()
References Continuation of the Sanhedrin under the House of David (73-429 CE) [1]The Sanhedrin continued to rule even after the destruction of the Second Temple until about 429 [2] CE. Being a member of the house of Hillel and thus a descendant of King David, the Patriarch, known in Hebrew as the Nasi (prince), enjoyed almost royal authority. [3]
The Sanhedrin in Secret [4] [5]After the Byzantine authorities overthrew Gamaliel VI, the Sanhedrin struggled to continue to function secretly. But it wasn’t until 520 that it, again, rested on a sound foundation with the coming of:
References
Karaite Patriarchate of the House of David [1]
References
Geon Yaacov of the House of David [1]
Geon Yaacov in ExileIn 1077, the Seljuk Turks conquered Palestine and much of the rest of the Middle East from the Arabs. Elijah, therefore, moved Geon Yaacov to Tyre, which was subject to Fatimid rule. He appointed Solomon ha-Nasi to head the remaining Geonate in Jerusalem. [2] Elijah’s son:
References
The Nagid of Egypt and consolidation [1]The office of Nagid goes back to the 10th century. It was the highest office among the Jews of Egypt. After the end of the geonic rule from Fostat and Damascus in 1195, the Nagid took over leadership of Palestine as well beginning with:
References
In 1516, the Ottoman conquest of Palestine and Egypt led to the abolition of the office of Nagid. Therefore, Isaac Sholal moved to Jerusalem and succeeded Albotini, holding the title of Sheikh al Yahud (1516-1525), thus making Palestinian Jewry independent of Egyptian Jewry. [1]
References
Rishon l’Tzion (1665-1842) [1]
|
Dsilon ( talk) 04:48, 9 August 2013 (UTC)Dsilon
I request the entire article be edited up to the section "Haham Bashi 1842-1917". From the "Haham Bashi" section onward, I don't have a problem. This edit request shows the article as it was originally. It seems that some people like to delete, or even rewrite, whole chunks of the history of certain subjects, and for the most nonsensical of reasons. On the other hand, history buffs such as myself, don't appreciate that and feel that every section is important.
{{
edit protected}}
template. --
Redrose64 (
talk) 07:27, 9 August 2013 (UTC)References
I think that it's the presidents who should be listed here; not the prime ministers. It is the president, like a king, as the head of state; who is the leader of the land. The prime minister is only the leader of the government. I also think that Moses and the judges, as the leaders before House of Saul, should be listed here. Karriuss ( talk) 23:58, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
How can we resolve these issues and make the needed improvements?:
This confusion is:
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 14 December 2012 (UTC). The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 26 September 2012 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | On 7 October 2012, it was proposed that this article be moved to List of Jewish rulers in the Land of Israel. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
Pretty obvious -- even the lead reads as though the biblical accounts are historical fact. Dougweller ( talk) 19:06, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
The "it was kept in AFD, therefore we can never change it again" argument is even weaker here than it usually is since the closer specifically stated that neutrality issues should be fixed through editing. The primary neutrality issue was that the article was an obvious attempt to make a political point about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict by creating a pretended continuity from Abraham to (now) Bibi, and we can begin (though not finish) addressing that issue by removing the modern political leaders. However, even pretending that this wasn't created with a political goal by a single-purpose activist account, it's still just a bad article that needs enormous amounts of work to even begin to be acceptable. Who is a "Jewish leader"? Is it, as JethroB states, a leader who is Jewish? Then why isn't Tzipi Livni here? Indeed, why not Meir Kahane? And if you'll argue that those two aren't official enough or don't have enough power, why the heck is Matityahu here, who, as far as official positions go, was just a regular cohen? If what we're really going for is "leaders of Jews," since we've got Egypt and Babylon here as well and ignoring the "Israel" bit, why don't we list the Baal Shem Tov? The excuse that political and religious power were conflated in some periods can only go so far; they're clearly not conflated now or in many of the other periods on this list. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 04:06, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus. -- BDD ( talk) 19:41, 22 October 2012 (UTC) ( non-admin closure)
List of Jewish leaders in the Land of Israel → List of Jewish rulers in the Land of Israel – This should address Roscelese's concerns above and narrow the scope to include those who had authority as rulers or an appointment to rule as governor, rather than a leader of a movement, even if not the official person in power. Relisted. BDD ( talk) 19:41, 15 October 2012 (UTC) -- Jethro B 04:19, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
2 Kings 18:9 mentions King Shalmaneser http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Kings+18&version=NIV | Which Shalmaneser is it (there were at least 5)
Twillisjr ( talk) 04:56, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
The failure of the requested move did not end the discussion over the article's scope. If no one wants to make the article encyclopedic, it will simply have to be nominated for deletion again, and that would be unsatisfying for everyone. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 06:50, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
I agree that the list should be restricted to jewish leaders, in the area of Israel, but think that there are a few dissagreements from the way you are interpreting things
For those jews far away, who maybe leaders in the diaspora, I agree, they can be excised. Egyptian/babylonian ones I think should be discussed to see if they meet point #2 above, but I can see good argument for removing them, as I do agree this is not "leaders of jews" but "leaders in israel" Gaijin42 ( talk) 16:50, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Well, types of leadership have changed significantly in the past thousand years. Certainly, I would agree that popes should not be listed as american leaders. But if the president delegated authority to rule catholics (some sort of catholic Shaira law?) then it could be. Beyond that, certainly there were multiple simultaneous autonomous (or at least vassal state) divisions within the land of israel weren't there? The entire area was not consistently ruled by a single king (although that single king may have ruled what was named israel at any given time).
frankly, I dont have the background knowledge to comment on any particular person. My objection was more that with such a massive change in one edit, I do not think proper consideration for each entry that it was not meeting the criteria of the article. Many of them may need to ultimately be removed, but each should be given proper consideration. Gaijin42 ( talk) 17:38, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
3O Response: This article is flawed at the outset, and clarifying it will help in the discussion. The flaw? The title refers to the proper noun
Land of Israel, but the first line (defining the article) refers to the modern state of
Israel. You resolve this by making
Land of Israel part of the parameter in the lede. (My gosh, Land of Israel is not even linked.) Once you properly make Land of Israel the geographic scope, you restrict the inclusions of names in this list to those notable names contained in the Land of Israel article or the various sub-articles mentioned in Land of Israel (for example:
Kingdom of Israel (Samaria)). And since modern Israel is mentioned in Land of Israel, you can include modern names. But I recommend that other lists, such as
List of Prime Ministers of Israel be used as hatnotes rather than duplicating such listings here. –
S. Rich (
talk) 18:30, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
This article has been protected from editing for one week to try to generate talk page discussion of the disputed content. Please follow the WP:BRD guideline. You may also wish to consider dispute resolution ( WP:DR). Mark Arsten ( talk) 04:27, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Overlong, collapsed to keep page readable
| ||||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
The following is a list of Jewish political leaders in what is now the State of Israel. The PatriarchsIn the Land of GoshenEven though the Bible does not mention it explicitly, perhaps it can be assumed that the following names, the descendants of Ephraim, led the Israelites in Egypt (Chronicles 7:20-21): Shutelah, Bered, Tahat, Eladah, Tahat, Zabad, Shutelah The Sinai Period
The Judges
House of Saul
House of David
After Rehoboam reigned three years (1 Chronicles 11:17), the kingdom was divided in two - the northern kingdom of Israel under Jeroboam, with its capital, first in Shechem (Nablus), then Tirzah, and finally Samaria, and ruled by a series of dynasties beginning with Jeroboam; and the southern kingdom of Judah with its capital still at Jerusalem and still ruled by the House of David. The following list contains the kings of Judah with the kings of Israel in the summaries:
House of David in the Babylonia Captivity
House of David after the Captivity
References The High Priests of the House of AaronThe High Priests had ruled Israel uninterruptedly since the time of Aaron the first priest. While Israel was still ruled by Persia, and after the death of Hananiah, apparently, the High Priests were the sole rulers of the people for a period of approximately 300 years. The following names and information were taken from the “Jewish Encyclopedia” (ed. Isidore Singer, 1905) under the section “High Priest” beginning with Jehoiada (#34) taking both columns into account, and from the chronological section of the “History of Israel Until 1880” (Keter Publishing House, 1971).
Hasmonean dynasty 168–37 BCE![]() The Maccabees founded the Hasmonean dynasty, which ruled from 168 BCE - 37 BCE, reasserting the Jewish religion and expanding the boundaries of the Land of Israel by conquest. [1] In the post-Maccabean period the high priest was looked upon as exercising in all things, political, legal, and sacerdotal, the supreme authority. [2]
Herodian dynasty (37 BCE – 70 CE)![]()
After Archelaus and during the intervening period, the Sanhedrin, founded by Ezra, became the sole rulers of the Jewish people in Judea in conjunction with the High Priest. The heads, or nesiim, of the Sanhedrin beginning in 20 BCE, was Hillel the Elder, his son Shimon, and his son Gamaliel I whose rule extended into the reign of [3]: ![]()
References Continuation of the Sanhedrin under the House of David (73-429 CE) [1]The Sanhedrin continued to rule even after the destruction of the Second Temple until about 429 [2] CE. Being a member of the house of Hillel and thus a descendant of King David, the Patriarch, known in Hebrew as the Nasi (prince), enjoyed almost royal authority. [3]
The Sanhedrin in Secret [4] [5]After the Byzantine authorities overthrew Gamaliel VI, the Sanhedrin struggled to continue to function secretly. But it wasn’t until 520 that it, again, rested on a sound foundation with the coming of:
References
Karaite Patriarchate of the House of David [1]
References
Geon Yaacov of the House of David [1]
Geon Yaacov in ExileIn 1077, the Seljuk Turks conquered Palestine and much of the rest of the Middle East from the Arabs. Elijah, therefore, moved Geon Yaacov to Tyre, which was subject to Fatimid rule. He appointed Solomon ha-Nasi to head the remaining Geonate in Jerusalem. [2] Elijah’s son:
References
The Nagid of Egypt and consolidation [1]The office of Nagid goes back to the 10th century. It was the highest office among the Jews of Egypt. After the end of the geonic rule from Fostat and Damascus in 1195, the Nagid took over leadership of Palestine as well beginning with:
References
In 1516, the Ottoman conquest of Palestine and Egypt led to the abolition of the office of Nagid. Therefore, Isaac Sholal moved to Jerusalem and succeeded Albotini, holding the title of Sheikh al Yahud (1516-1525), thus making Palestinian Jewry independent of Egyptian Jewry. [1]
References
Rishon l’Tzion (1665-1842) [1]
|
Dsilon ( talk) 04:48, 9 August 2013 (UTC)Dsilon
I request the entire article be edited up to the section "Haham Bashi 1842-1917". From the "Haham Bashi" section onward, I don't have a problem. This edit request shows the article as it was originally. It seems that some people like to delete, or even rewrite, whole chunks of the history of certain subjects, and for the most nonsensical of reasons. On the other hand, history buffs such as myself, don't appreciate that and feel that every section is important.
{{
edit protected}}
template. --
Redrose64 (
talk) 07:27, 9 August 2013 (UTC)References
I think that it's the presidents who should be listed here; not the prime ministers. It is the president, like a king, as the head of state; who is the leader of the land. The prime minister is only the leader of the government. I also think that Moses and the judges, as the leaders before House of Saul, should be listed here. Karriuss ( talk) 23:58, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
How can we resolve these issues and make the needed improvements?:
This confusion is: