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Maybe there should be some mention of these three guys and their Erwise... The Greatest Internet Pioneers You Never Heard Of: The Story of Erwise and Four Finns Who Showed the Way to the Web Browser Juha-Pekka Tikka 3/3/09 http://www.xconomy.com/national/2009/03/03/the-greatest-internet-pioneers-you-never-heard-of-the-story-of-erwise-and-four-finns-who-showed-the-way-to-the-web-browser/ AlbertaSunwapta ( talk) 12:41, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
I've been working on this article for a few days. I think I'm pretty much done for now. But looking over the article, I noticed that all of the pioneers are men and all but two are from the U.S. (the two are from the UK). Is the article missing some important contributors to the development of the Internet or is it just the case that there weren't many women involved in computing in the early days of the Internet (1960s, 1970s)? And, while the Internet was a largely U.S. invention with the early foundation work sponsored by the U.S. Department of Defense, are there non-U.S. pioneers that should be added? Jeff Ogden ( talk) 02:28, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
There were a moderate number of non-US pioneers in the middle stages. (The early stages, in the ARPANET era, are almost exclusively US, I think.) One fruitful place to look is what's called the 'Internetwork Working Group' of the mid-70s; a good history of that is here. I think the list has most of the important names from that period now (Pouzin [he's the most significant non-US name of all, IMO], Kirstein, etc). (BTW, Mockapetris is US, not non-US, I'm pretty sure - can't find his birth info to be certain. And Roger Needham and Maurice Wilkes, although important figures, don't really belong in this list; neither had much to do with the Internet or its roots - the Cambridge Ring work was not really influential in any Internet work (although we knew of it.)
As to women, there just weren't that many. The two names I recall from the early days are Ginny Strazisar (now Travers) and Radia Perlman. Radia's subsequent work on Byzantine routing, IS-IS, bridging etc raise her to the point where she probably deserves to be in this list (I myself would have set a very high bar, high enough to knock off a number of the current listees, hence my waffling on if she makes it over the bar), no matter what her gender. Ginny I'm less sure of; she got an IEEE award for doing the first IP router (I wrote a recommendation for her for that), but I'm not sure she rises to the level of 'pioneer' - but maybe she does, I'll leave that call to others. Noel (talk) 17:15, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
I would be very tempted to add Danny Cohen. (He certainly has a better claim to be there than some others who are already up.) I think he more than anyone was responsible for proto-TCP being split into IP and TCP (pre TCP3, there was no separate TCP and IP), and making UDP available. How many applications these days run on datagrams, not reliable streams? A lot... I'm going to check with the Internet-History mailing list (archives first, I think we discussed this a while back), but I think he was primarily responsible, along with David Reed of MIT.
Who else? You might want to add Steve Crocker, who started the whole RFC series, and had a large hand in the development of NCP (the first user-user protocol). And maybe Charlie Herzfeld, who was the DARPA Director who said 'OK' to the ARPANet. There are probably some people involved with the FRICC and that era who belong there too, for overseeing the transition from a government network to an open one - maybe Dennis Jennings? Looking at RFC-1336, and the 'Birth' plaque, I don't see any other obvious missing names. I do see at least one name on the page that doesn't IMO really belong there (not on the same level as people like Lick, etc), but I'm not going to say who - I don't want be negative - I'd rather focus on those who got left out. Noel (talk) 01:32, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
I think the claim is that the plaque is a copyrighted work by default, so a photo of it would be a non-free derivative work, or something like that? Seem far-fetched since there are all sorts of photos of public plaques around, but I am not a lawyer. A "fair use" claim might work here, maybe? I do know there was some friction with UCLA who thought they should be the one getting the PR, since although Cerf as at Stanford at the time he did IP, the first ARPAnet node and Kleinrock were at UCLA. And if the photo was claimed to be a copyright violation, then why was the text kept? Finally, I was there for the ceremony, and it was in the Alumni building, not in Gates Hall. At least that was where the event was. See announcement which indeed says it would move to Gates Hall, so that explains it. W Nowicki ( talk) 17:28, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
I think the copyright argument is wrong - there is no copyright mark on the plaque. If anyone wants it, I have a photo I took on the day (before the plaque was mounted) that is actually readable. PeterLHigginson ( talk) 01:13, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Is Bernard Luskin an Internet pioneer? He is on this list. Should he be or should he be removed? Jeff Ogden (W163) ( talk) 15:27, 19 March 2012 (UTC) He should remain on the list. He worked in all facets of the internet as it evolved.
FACTS: Luskin is founding president of Coastline Community College in 1976, the model for many of the distance learning programs. He was a member of the team that put the first computer in a community college for instruction in 1963. Luskin is the founding Director of the first PhD program in Media Psychology in 2002. It is located at Fielding Graduate University and has spearheaded the growth of the Society for Media Psychology and Technology of the American Psychological Association. Luskin was a doctoral student at UCLA in 1968 when Leonard Kleinrock sent one of the early messages that helped ignite the internet. He worked with the Rand Corporation in validating the Delhi Method through his dissertation studying computer assisted instruction. He is founding chancellor of Jones International University, the first fully accredited, fully online university, and founding CEO of Touro University Worldwide, now fully online. He is founding CEO of Philips Interactive Media, that was central in developing MPEG, CD and digital programming. Luskin was President of Mind Extension University, an early cable network that pioneered telecourses leading to online programming. He did the legwork in establishing KOCE TV in Orange County California and pioneered telecourses through Coastline College and KOCE-TV. His Blog: Google, The Media Psychology Effect, posts more than fifty articles on media and technology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.240.144.241 ( talk) 10:29, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
The Internet Hall of Fame splits its inductees into three groups: Pioneers, Global Connectors, and Innovators. Looking just at the Pioneers group, most but not all of the members are included in the Wikipedia article List of Internet pioneers. The ones that aren't included are:
Should any of these folks be included in the Wikipedia article?
A few, but not really all that many of the folks in the Global Connectors and Innovators groups are included in the Wikipedia article. Are there others we should include?
Uh, no. I'm a great fan of Hedy Lamarr, who was in real life a quite remarkable human being. But, nevertheless: no, the internet really has nothing to do with the radio-scrambling technique she patented with George Antheil. You might make an argument that she was a wifi pioneer. but even there the argument is pretty weak (the frequency-hopping torpedo control was never implemented and the patent was pretty much forgotten; frequency hopping for data-communication (wifi) is done for a different purpose and was invented independently.) This article really needs to be vetted by somebody who knows technology, not just somebody who sees photo-memes on the internet. Michael-Zero ( talk) 18:56, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
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As much as he contributed to the foundation of modern computing, I have to wonder why John von Neumann is on this list. None of his contributions had anything to do with networked computing; if someone can find a source connecting him in a significant way to the birth internet, I could be persuaded to keep him. I'm removing him for now. -- Blueclaw ( talk) 19:26, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
http://edition.cnn.com/fyi/interactive/specials/bhm/story/black.innovators.html
http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/printout/0,29239,1963424_1963480_1963457,00.html
http://www.emeagwali.com/biography/Philip-Emeagwali-Inventions.pdf
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Should Glenda Schroder be listed as an Internet pioneer? Her early contributions to e-mail and shells seem significant, but seem more related to more general developments in computing and operating systems then to the development of computer networking or the Internet. The words "Internet" and "network" do not appear in her Wikipedia article. She does not appear on the other Internet pioneer or Hall of Fame lists. -- Jeff Ogden (W163) ( talk) 13:20, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
He was Jon Postel's thesis advisor, among many other things. Co-founder of CSNET. Build a packet-switched local area network in the UK before Ethernet or the ARPAnet were created. ...etc... Gnuish ( talk) 00:25, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
Surely, he deserves a mention, he invented the Internet in Australia, as testified by the prime minister of Australia Tony Abbott. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18owzYfvIcE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.73.163.255 ( talk) 13:10, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
Robert Metcalfe should probably be added as the person who minted "Ethernet" in 1973, headed the group for it at Xerox PARC and then pushed for its open use. He went on to found 3Com. RowanHawkins ( talk) 01:26, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
References
The authors wish to thank a number of colleagues for helpful comments during early discussions of international network protocols, especially R. Metcalfe, R. Scantlebury, D. Walden, and H. Zimmerman; D. Davies and L. Pouzin who constructively commented on the fragmentation and accounting issues; and S. Crocker who commented on the creation and destruction of associations.
Despite the misgivings of Xerox Corporation (which intended to make PUP the basis of a proprietary commercial networking product), researchers at Xerox PARC, including ARPANET pioneers Robert Metcalfe and Yogen Dalal, shared the basic contours of their research with colleagues at TCP and Internet working group meetings in 1976 and 1977, suggesting the possible benefits of separating TCPs routing and transmission control functions into two discrete layers.
This list has been in approximate chronological order for a very long time. The chronological order was changed by Natg 19 to Alpha order on May 6, 2024. I strongly disagree. I have done work on the ARPANET and Internet since the early days of the ARPANET. (I am old.)
The previous chronological order provides a lot of information about the gradual development of the ARPANET by pioneers over decades. Changing the list to an Alpha order basically throws away all the important history information.
I hit the "undo" button of Natg 19 May 6 edit for this page earlier today.
I was immediately overruled by Natg 19, who changed the list back to the Alpha order.
I am new to editing Wikipedia. I signed up for Wikipedia mainly to make this change.
Please forgive me for not knowing about the methods for giving Wikipedia referees a heads up with an explanation. I finally did sign up for a User page earlier and still learning how to use. Then I found this discussion page.
I hope Natg 19 sees this explanation and change the List of Internet pioneers to its earlier chronological order. Thanks. My apologies if I offended any one. Helsaj ( talk) 07:19, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
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Maybe there should be some mention of these three guys and their Erwise... The Greatest Internet Pioneers You Never Heard Of: The Story of Erwise and Four Finns Who Showed the Way to the Web Browser Juha-Pekka Tikka 3/3/09 http://www.xconomy.com/national/2009/03/03/the-greatest-internet-pioneers-you-never-heard-of-the-story-of-erwise-and-four-finns-who-showed-the-way-to-the-web-browser/ AlbertaSunwapta ( talk) 12:41, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
I've been working on this article for a few days. I think I'm pretty much done for now. But looking over the article, I noticed that all of the pioneers are men and all but two are from the U.S. (the two are from the UK). Is the article missing some important contributors to the development of the Internet or is it just the case that there weren't many women involved in computing in the early days of the Internet (1960s, 1970s)? And, while the Internet was a largely U.S. invention with the early foundation work sponsored by the U.S. Department of Defense, are there non-U.S. pioneers that should be added? Jeff Ogden ( talk) 02:28, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
There were a moderate number of non-US pioneers in the middle stages. (The early stages, in the ARPANET era, are almost exclusively US, I think.) One fruitful place to look is what's called the 'Internetwork Working Group' of the mid-70s; a good history of that is here. I think the list has most of the important names from that period now (Pouzin [he's the most significant non-US name of all, IMO], Kirstein, etc). (BTW, Mockapetris is US, not non-US, I'm pretty sure - can't find his birth info to be certain. And Roger Needham and Maurice Wilkes, although important figures, don't really belong in this list; neither had much to do with the Internet or its roots - the Cambridge Ring work was not really influential in any Internet work (although we knew of it.)
As to women, there just weren't that many. The two names I recall from the early days are Ginny Strazisar (now Travers) and Radia Perlman. Radia's subsequent work on Byzantine routing, IS-IS, bridging etc raise her to the point where she probably deserves to be in this list (I myself would have set a very high bar, high enough to knock off a number of the current listees, hence my waffling on if she makes it over the bar), no matter what her gender. Ginny I'm less sure of; she got an IEEE award for doing the first IP router (I wrote a recommendation for her for that), but I'm not sure she rises to the level of 'pioneer' - but maybe she does, I'll leave that call to others. Noel (talk) 17:15, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
I would be very tempted to add Danny Cohen. (He certainly has a better claim to be there than some others who are already up.) I think he more than anyone was responsible for proto-TCP being split into IP and TCP (pre TCP3, there was no separate TCP and IP), and making UDP available. How many applications these days run on datagrams, not reliable streams? A lot... I'm going to check with the Internet-History mailing list (archives first, I think we discussed this a while back), but I think he was primarily responsible, along with David Reed of MIT.
Who else? You might want to add Steve Crocker, who started the whole RFC series, and had a large hand in the development of NCP (the first user-user protocol). And maybe Charlie Herzfeld, who was the DARPA Director who said 'OK' to the ARPANet. There are probably some people involved with the FRICC and that era who belong there too, for overseeing the transition from a government network to an open one - maybe Dennis Jennings? Looking at RFC-1336, and the 'Birth' plaque, I don't see any other obvious missing names. I do see at least one name on the page that doesn't IMO really belong there (not on the same level as people like Lick, etc), but I'm not going to say who - I don't want be negative - I'd rather focus on those who got left out. Noel (talk) 01:32, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
I think the claim is that the plaque is a copyrighted work by default, so a photo of it would be a non-free derivative work, or something like that? Seem far-fetched since there are all sorts of photos of public plaques around, but I am not a lawyer. A "fair use" claim might work here, maybe? I do know there was some friction with UCLA who thought they should be the one getting the PR, since although Cerf as at Stanford at the time he did IP, the first ARPAnet node and Kleinrock were at UCLA. And if the photo was claimed to be a copyright violation, then why was the text kept? Finally, I was there for the ceremony, and it was in the Alumni building, not in Gates Hall. At least that was where the event was. See announcement which indeed says it would move to Gates Hall, so that explains it. W Nowicki ( talk) 17:28, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
I think the copyright argument is wrong - there is no copyright mark on the plaque. If anyone wants it, I have a photo I took on the day (before the plaque was mounted) that is actually readable. PeterLHigginson ( talk) 01:13, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Is Bernard Luskin an Internet pioneer? He is on this list. Should he be or should he be removed? Jeff Ogden (W163) ( talk) 15:27, 19 March 2012 (UTC) He should remain on the list. He worked in all facets of the internet as it evolved.
FACTS: Luskin is founding president of Coastline Community College in 1976, the model for many of the distance learning programs. He was a member of the team that put the first computer in a community college for instruction in 1963. Luskin is the founding Director of the first PhD program in Media Psychology in 2002. It is located at Fielding Graduate University and has spearheaded the growth of the Society for Media Psychology and Technology of the American Psychological Association. Luskin was a doctoral student at UCLA in 1968 when Leonard Kleinrock sent one of the early messages that helped ignite the internet. He worked with the Rand Corporation in validating the Delhi Method through his dissertation studying computer assisted instruction. He is founding chancellor of Jones International University, the first fully accredited, fully online university, and founding CEO of Touro University Worldwide, now fully online. He is founding CEO of Philips Interactive Media, that was central in developing MPEG, CD and digital programming. Luskin was President of Mind Extension University, an early cable network that pioneered telecourses leading to online programming. He did the legwork in establishing KOCE TV in Orange County California and pioneered telecourses through Coastline College and KOCE-TV. His Blog: Google, The Media Psychology Effect, posts more than fifty articles on media and technology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.240.144.241 ( talk) 10:29, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
The Internet Hall of Fame splits its inductees into three groups: Pioneers, Global Connectors, and Innovators. Looking just at the Pioneers group, most but not all of the members are included in the Wikipedia article List of Internet pioneers. The ones that aren't included are:
Should any of these folks be included in the Wikipedia article?
A few, but not really all that many of the folks in the Global Connectors and Innovators groups are included in the Wikipedia article. Are there others we should include?
Uh, no. I'm a great fan of Hedy Lamarr, who was in real life a quite remarkable human being. But, nevertheless: no, the internet really has nothing to do with the radio-scrambling technique she patented with George Antheil. You might make an argument that she was a wifi pioneer. but even there the argument is pretty weak (the frequency-hopping torpedo control was never implemented and the patent was pretty much forgotten; frequency hopping for data-communication (wifi) is done for a different purpose and was invented independently.) This article really needs to be vetted by somebody who knows technology, not just somebody who sees photo-memes on the internet. Michael-Zero ( talk) 18:56, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
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As much as he contributed to the foundation of modern computing, I have to wonder why John von Neumann is on this list. None of his contributions had anything to do with networked computing; if someone can find a source connecting him in a significant way to the birth internet, I could be persuaded to keep him. I'm removing him for now. -- Blueclaw ( talk) 19:26, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
http://edition.cnn.com/fyi/interactive/specials/bhm/story/black.innovators.html
http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/printout/0,29239,1963424_1963480_1963457,00.html
http://www.emeagwali.com/biography/Philip-Emeagwali-Inventions.pdf
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Should Glenda Schroder be listed as an Internet pioneer? Her early contributions to e-mail and shells seem significant, but seem more related to more general developments in computing and operating systems then to the development of computer networking or the Internet. The words "Internet" and "network" do not appear in her Wikipedia article. She does not appear on the other Internet pioneer or Hall of Fame lists. -- Jeff Ogden (W163) ( talk) 13:20, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
He was Jon Postel's thesis advisor, among many other things. Co-founder of CSNET. Build a packet-switched local area network in the UK before Ethernet or the ARPAnet were created. ...etc... Gnuish ( talk) 00:25, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
Surely, he deserves a mention, he invented the Internet in Australia, as testified by the prime minister of Australia Tony Abbott. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18owzYfvIcE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.73.163.255 ( talk) 13:10, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
Robert Metcalfe should probably be added as the person who minted "Ethernet" in 1973, headed the group for it at Xerox PARC and then pushed for its open use. He went on to found 3Com. RowanHawkins ( talk) 01:26, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
References
The authors wish to thank a number of colleagues for helpful comments during early discussions of international network protocols, especially R. Metcalfe, R. Scantlebury, D. Walden, and H. Zimmerman; D. Davies and L. Pouzin who constructively commented on the fragmentation and accounting issues; and S. Crocker who commented on the creation and destruction of associations.
Despite the misgivings of Xerox Corporation (which intended to make PUP the basis of a proprietary commercial networking product), researchers at Xerox PARC, including ARPANET pioneers Robert Metcalfe and Yogen Dalal, shared the basic contours of their research with colleagues at TCP and Internet working group meetings in 1976 and 1977, suggesting the possible benefits of separating TCPs routing and transmission control functions into two discrete layers.
This list has been in approximate chronological order for a very long time. The chronological order was changed by Natg 19 to Alpha order on May 6, 2024. I strongly disagree. I have done work on the ARPANET and Internet since the early days of the ARPANET. (I am old.)
The previous chronological order provides a lot of information about the gradual development of the ARPANET by pioneers over decades. Changing the list to an Alpha order basically throws away all the important history information.
I hit the "undo" button of Natg 19 May 6 edit for this page earlier today.
I was immediately overruled by Natg 19, who changed the list back to the Alpha order.
I am new to editing Wikipedia. I signed up for Wikipedia mainly to make this change.
Please forgive me for not knowing about the methods for giving Wikipedia referees a heads up with an explanation. I finally did sign up for a User page earlier and still learning how to use. Then I found this discussion page.
I hope Natg 19 sees this explanation and change the List of Internet pioneers to its earlier chronological order. Thanks. My apologies if I offended any one. Helsaj ( talk) 07:19, 4 June 2024 (UTC)