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This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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Please see discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) for current discussion of a potential policy to apply to all ethnicity lists on Wikipedia, including this one. JackO'Lantern 20:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I have sourced the list in accordance with Wikipedia's Original Research and Verifiability policies. Basically, anyone described by a reliable source as "Finnish" or "Finnish-American" (i.e. as opposed to "of Finnish descent", "Finnish mother", etc.) is on the list. Here are the few people I couldn't find anything for. If you have a reliable source that fits that please restore the names:
Mad Jack 03:04, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Where is the "original research"? A source says Matt Damon, for instance, is of Finnish ancestry. An American of Finnish ancestry is a Finnish American by definition. How much original research is involved? Independent genealogical research would be a different matter. On the other hand, there is a policy against removing content, which is done here on a regular basis.
Err...I think my question was: where is the original research? "Exclusively used by wikipedia editors"? So, if there are 700.000 Finnish Americans (and I think they do have official statistics), none of them are of mixed ancestry? If so, we do have a drop-X-blood test: a drop of alien blood and your not X-American. I don't have to tell you what that is called.
I see the point you are trying to make. Almost. But nothing you can say can excuse the removal of content, which I would qualify as vandalism. But more importantly, do the hyphenated Americans have a definition in the first place? I think most Americans would not like to admit they exist at all, which I think may be read between the lines here. For most of us non-Americans, however, an X,Y, Z American is just what the definition says: an American of X, Y or Z extraction. Anyone can be an X, Y, and Z American. Ironically, I agree with you: wikipedia users are not reliable sources. But even then, I think the Wikipedia is great. Let us not put the cart before the horse: "X American" is just a title of an article. I think a more appropriate title would be "Americans of X ancestry". If the unfortunate title of the article were changed into "Americans of X ancestry," the content would correspond better to what many of us are looking for.
This is off the wall. One is not a Finnish-American because some source applied the term "Finnish-American" to him instead of using the actually more specific description of "Finnish ancestry" or "had a Finnish grandfather".
A Finnish-American is an American of Finnish ancestry. Look at a dictionary. Look at the U.S. census. Look at, of all things, Finnish American. You want to quibble about remote ancestors and one-drop rules, whatever. A dude's grandfather -- particularly one that he himself knew and cites as someone he most admires in specific reference to his Finnish ethnicity -- is not a remote ancestor by any stretch.
Indeed, it is far less relevant that some source might use the exact phrase "Finnish American" (by what definition?) than the actual fact of Finnish ancestry. We should be dealing in facts here, not semantic games. Louche 06:46, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Talking about personal opinions: "I have had it..." And "enough is enough is enough". And talking about Matt Damon, did his Finnish grandfather have an effect on him? He says he did. That is how we know he had a Finnish grandfather. And talking about percentages, where did you get the 3% and the "drop of blood"? A grandfather is 25%. You are not even addressing the real issues. When lists are made, it is not up to you to vandalize them (although I think you would prefer to call it policing) because you don't know what use they will be put to. What good is genealogy in the first place? If the semantics bother you, we should change the title of the article.
In terms of percentages, I think more than 25% is fair, because one of the parents is more than half-X. Another criterion could be that the person identifies him as X-American. I hope some clear limits can be established, because editing and re-editing these lists takes too much of everybody's time.
As a matter of editorial policy, more than 25% would be workable. You have to draw the line somewhere. I think it would be a good idea to add the caveat that the neutrality is disputed or something along those lines.
As you implied, self-identification supersedes the percentages. The 25% limit would also mean that the person is more than "third-generation" X. Since it is you who has been so intent on cleaning the lists, it is up to you to indicate what your policy is. Whatever it is, I don't think it has been implemented quite consistently.
OK, I have put him on the list. There are plenty of unsourced entries in other lists (Michael Madsen in the Danish list).
To me, these are fun articles. I thought it should have been obvious to anyone. What is "famous"? And Angela Bowie in the list of Greek Americans? But as I said, self-identification supersedes genealogy.
OK, at least we got Matt Damon on the list. Thanks.
Pamela Anderson visited Finland this summer. Her great-grandfather was Finnish, and it's been known here in Finland for years. There are several newspaper stories about her visit. -- Lalli 06:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
What about Zelda Rae Williams ( daughter of Robin Williams)? Her mother is half Finnish, and Zelda is an upcoming actor. Quote from Finnish Holliwood website " Marsha Garces Williams, born 1957. Second-generation American. Philippino-Finnish descent with Finnish maternal grandparents.Producer. Wife of Robin Williams since 1989. His former personal assistant." http://www25.brinkster.com/finhollywood/international.html
See [4]. A vast number of individuals were removed from the article as "unsourced," but most of which had sources, including the Library of Congress. Such a mode of editing amounts fo WP:Vandalism. Please restore the text and use "fact" tags to improve, rather than deplete our articles, which have been laboriously built up over a period of years. Thank you for this consideration. Badagnani ( talk) 05:18, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
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This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Please see discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) for current discussion of a potential policy to apply to all ethnicity lists on Wikipedia, including this one. JackO'Lantern 20:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I have sourced the list in accordance with Wikipedia's Original Research and Verifiability policies. Basically, anyone described by a reliable source as "Finnish" or "Finnish-American" (i.e. as opposed to "of Finnish descent", "Finnish mother", etc.) is on the list. Here are the few people I couldn't find anything for. If you have a reliable source that fits that please restore the names:
Mad Jack 03:04, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Where is the "original research"? A source says Matt Damon, for instance, is of Finnish ancestry. An American of Finnish ancestry is a Finnish American by definition. How much original research is involved? Independent genealogical research would be a different matter. On the other hand, there is a policy against removing content, which is done here on a regular basis.
Err...I think my question was: where is the original research? "Exclusively used by wikipedia editors"? So, if there are 700.000 Finnish Americans (and I think they do have official statistics), none of them are of mixed ancestry? If so, we do have a drop-X-blood test: a drop of alien blood and your not X-American. I don't have to tell you what that is called.
I see the point you are trying to make. Almost. But nothing you can say can excuse the removal of content, which I would qualify as vandalism. But more importantly, do the hyphenated Americans have a definition in the first place? I think most Americans would not like to admit they exist at all, which I think may be read between the lines here. For most of us non-Americans, however, an X,Y, Z American is just what the definition says: an American of X, Y or Z extraction. Anyone can be an X, Y, and Z American. Ironically, I agree with you: wikipedia users are not reliable sources. But even then, I think the Wikipedia is great. Let us not put the cart before the horse: "X American" is just a title of an article. I think a more appropriate title would be "Americans of X ancestry". If the unfortunate title of the article were changed into "Americans of X ancestry," the content would correspond better to what many of us are looking for.
This is off the wall. One is not a Finnish-American because some source applied the term "Finnish-American" to him instead of using the actually more specific description of "Finnish ancestry" or "had a Finnish grandfather".
A Finnish-American is an American of Finnish ancestry. Look at a dictionary. Look at the U.S. census. Look at, of all things, Finnish American. You want to quibble about remote ancestors and one-drop rules, whatever. A dude's grandfather -- particularly one that he himself knew and cites as someone he most admires in specific reference to his Finnish ethnicity -- is not a remote ancestor by any stretch.
Indeed, it is far less relevant that some source might use the exact phrase "Finnish American" (by what definition?) than the actual fact of Finnish ancestry. We should be dealing in facts here, not semantic games. Louche 06:46, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Talking about personal opinions: "I have had it..." And "enough is enough is enough". And talking about Matt Damon, did his Finnish grandfather have an effect on him? He says he did. That is how we know he had a Finnish grandfather. And talking about percentages, where did you get the 3% and the "drop of blood"? A grandfather is 25%. You are not even addressing the real issues. When lists are made, it is not up to you to vandalize them (although I think you would prefer to call it policing) because you don't know what use they will be put to. What good is genealogy in the first place? If the semantics bother you, we should change the title of the article.
In terms of percentages, I think more than 25% is fair, because one of the parents is more than half-X. Another criterion could be that the person identifies him as X-American. I hope some clear limits can be established, because editing and re-editing these lists takes too much of everybody's time.
As a matter of editorial policy, more than 25% would be workable. You have to draw the line somewhere. I think it would be a good idea to add the caveat that the neutrality is disputed or something along those lines.
As you implied, self-identification supersedes the percentages. The 25% limit would also mean that the person is more than "third-generation" X. Since it is you who has been so intent on cleaning the lists, it is up to you to indicate what your policy is. Whatever it is, I don't think it has been implemented quite consistently.
OK, I have put him on the list. There are plenty of unsourced entries in other lists (Michael Madsen in the Danish list).
To me, these are fun articles. I thought it should have been obvious to anyone. What is "famous"? And Angela Bowie in the list of Greek Americans? But as I said, self-identification supersedes genealogy.
OK, at least we got Matt Damon on the list. Thanks.
Pamela Anderson visited Finland this summer. Her great-grandfather was Finnish, and it's been known here in Finland for years. There are several newspaper stories about her visit. -- Lalli 06:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
What about Zelda Rae Williams ( daughter of Robin Williams)? Her mother is half Finnish, and Zelda is an upcoming actor. Quote from Finnish Holliwood website " Marsha Garces Williams, born 1957. Second-generation American. Philippino-Finnish descent with Finnish maternal grandparents.Producer. Wife of Robin Williams since 1989. His former personal assistant." http://www25.brinkster.com/finhollywood/international.html
See [4]. A vast number of individuals were removed from the article as "unsourced," but most of which had sources, including the Library of Congress. Such a mode of editing amounts fo WP:Vandalism. Please restore the text and use "fact" tags to improve, rather than deplete our articles, which have been laboriously built up over a period of years. Thank you for this consideration. Badagnani ( talk) 05:18, 11 September 2008 (UTC)