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The original list has been taken from http://www.russiannewsnetwork.com/fameston.html
I just erased one of the Kerli Koivs because there were two, just so y'all now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Giveittome667 ( talk • contribs) 21:56, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Jakob Mihkelson used to be the most famous of the Estonian emigrants in Sukhumi, Abkhazia, but he is far from being famous even in Estonia. - Andres
Kalevipoeg is a fictional hero and seems not to belong here. Andres
But could I make some order here? ABC etc.? Egon
For an international encyclopedia, I think that locally known (but not famous) persons who are just public figures, journalists, etc., but w/o any scientific or political interest or relevance, should not be on such a list, i.e. they are "not worthy" by wikipedia standards. By this criterion, I would suggest deleting at least
That's just suggestions, of course; if someone really wants to write an article on those, this would have to be looked at case-by-case.
Another issue is the problem of ethnicity, as is already clear with some ethnic or geographical descriptors above: Who is an "Estonian" in this context? Can it be ethnic background in the sense of blood? of language? What about the German Balts? What about German-Baltic and German scholars at Tartu, about politicians etc. from there? What about those who spent only a part of their lives in what is now Estonia? What about people of Estonian descent who went abroad? The list above has a heavy "ethnic" slant, but I think that, as is by now also the overall standard of all Estonian encyclopedias (Kes on Kes?, Eesti Entsüklopeedia, etc.), the criterion should be more inclusive (because the point here is the link to Estonia, rather the creation of an ethnic group), i.e. it should include all people whose life has been significantly linked to Estonia, i.e. Estonian origin, birth, or part of the life spent there. Clossius 09:09, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Hunnius was a Baltic German doctor who founded the mud therapy resort of Haapsalu, so he is important. Mihkel Jakobson was an important figure of Estonian emigration in Abkhazia. The list began as the list of ten most famous Estonians composed by Abkhazian Estonians. I don't know Steve Jurgenson but probably he is famous somewhere. Evar Saar is not an important figure. However, if the article about him is not found to be unworthy by the community of Wikipedia, then it should be here because the list also is the guide to the articles about articles on Estonians. Mihkel Aitsam has a similar status though he is not on the list.
Peeter Kreitsberg, Siiri Oviir and Sven Mikser are leading figures of Keskerakond next to Edgar Savisaar.
Tõnu Luik is a legend of philosophy in Estonia who is important for the Estonian culture. Hando Runnel is a major poet of an untranslatable kind. Rein Raud and Märt Väljataga are important "intellectuals" in Estonia. Raud is a professor at both Helsinki and Tallinn. Väljataga is the "Pope" of literature. Veidemann is a critic and by now a novelist (also a professor at Tartu).
Andres, I think the reason for our disagreement is that in the end, I do come from dead tree encyclopedia writing, and also from a perspective that believes that especially today, information selection is more important than information acquisition, and so I think that there should be some standards of general importance of a person or phenomenon included here. You seem to come from the web perspective, which is certainly legitimate as well, and which is much more inclusionary. I don't think these world view - dependent perspectives can be really "discussed out", and of course that means that yours prevails rather than mine, because it costs me less (intellectually speaking) to leave "unworthy" pieces in than it costs you to leave "worthy" people out.
What I still find problematic is your statement that "the point is not that someone has merit but that we can know something about someone, we can know or understand who he is," because clearly the wikipedia is against such an "understanding" approach and tries to focus on bare facts. I would agree with you that this would be nice, but how can you achieve this outside of judgment and evaluation, which you personally also seem to be queasy about (cf. the Parts discussion we had!).
A few words on the individual persons we discussed in this thread. I think that on Luik you are almost completely off the mark, also on the criteria. I think he is a clear phenomenon of a society in which Humanities were not allowed to freely develop and in which thus such people could florish and acquire a certainl mystique. In that sense, he could actually almost deserve an entry. However, I would absolutely insist that he is a literatus and not a scholar in any meaningful sense of the words, because - as you describe yourself - he does not meet any of the standards that apply, and can apply more or less objectively (because academe is after all an institution) to the latter. That includes the "lektor" issue, which could have been redeemed since about 15 years, but wasn't (and rightly so).
The only difficulty is that the policy of WP seems to hold that our personal opinions are not enough. There should be public opinions. And those public opinions, of course, would be on favour of Luik, since nobody would publicly blame him. But I think it is worth trying. OK, opinions can also be expressed "between the rows" though perhaps this is not fair.
On Jaan Einasto, I'll include that in his entry when it comes (he really deserves an entry from any perspective!), but briefly put, almost any astrophyiscists are also philosophers, and if you discuss the regular structure of the universe, you in the end won't be able to do that without Plato. On Raud, Väljataga, and Veidemann, I used "intelligentsia" advisedly. :-) I really think you overrate their importance in current Estonia (including cultural circles), but that's of course a judgment issue. The facts you list are that of regular careers - I don't think, for instance, that being a professor at Helsinki U and speaking Japanese per se is special; rather, that is normal. On Väljataga, I better take what you say in silence. :-)
As a result, with you masterminding the Estonian entries, indeed I think we have to have a very broad approach (yours!). So, the usual minister, professor, etc. should go in if someone writes an entry about her or him (but not any lektor, assistent, osakonna juhataja in a ministry, etc.). I would then say that only the truly frivolous cases should go out (students, business people promoting themselves, etc.). That includes Evar Saar, though, no? Clossius 07:08, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
You are getting very popular here, Andres! :-) Okay, I'll try to keep pace with just balancing with entries of statesmen, academics, and the like... at least you haven't, as I was afraid, put in Linnar Priimägi and Hasso Krull (yet). (Maybe I shouldn't have said that!) Clossius 19:14, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Andres 19:36, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I have added individuals back to the list who have Wikipedia articles written about them. Whether they are relevant or no is probably debatable. However, it would seem rather pointless to erase them in light of someone actually taking time to write an article on them. Case in point - Kristiina Ojuland. Who is, in fact, a rather well known individual even outside of Estonia. As is Jane Salumäe, who although has no article written as of yet, is a well known athlete abroad. Perhaps whoever is deleting names should consider these factors and leave names already appearing on the list and concentrate on on adding new names instead of deciding who should and should not be excluded. I scanned the list and certainly have no objections to most of the individuals appearing. Several I would not have added myself, but see that they at least have a modicum of success for someone to place them. I think it isn't appropriate to delete those who already have articles on Wikipedia.
---Fine, the page is yours to decide who is and who is not worthy of an entry. Have at it. Good luck. By the way, normally it is a common courtesy on Wikipedia to post on the discussion page before you make major changes to articles. Glad to see that you believe that doesn't apply to you and you can ride rough-shod over other people's work. As for Jane Salumäe's "best accomplishment in her field, according to sources, is the 4th place in European championships" well, that is simply untrue. She won the the 1998 Sydney Gold Coast marathon. But, as you are now the arbiter of the list, continue to do as you see fit.
I would delete the interwiki link here to japanese wikipedia. it seems to me it is not correct link. but maybe i'm wrong. Avjoska 07:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The concept of Estonian is ambiguous between ethnic Estonians and people borne or living in Estonia. Therefore I think that ethnic non-Estonian connected with Estonia and ethnic Estonians in other countries should be specially marked. Andres 13:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Come on... Jürgen Ligi as the famous "notable" Estonian?
I would love to have Mare Vint added to the list and at least stubs made for her and Ülo Õun, as I have some pictures of their art I could contribute. Both are obviously sufficiently grand to fit on the list. CarlJohanSveningsson ( talk)
Does anyone know, is that Swedish commander and administrator of the Swedish Gold Coast 16 - 22 April 1663 Tönnies Voss with Estonian heritage. I added it also to the Estonian heritage forum (in Estonian) Jaanusele ( talk) 09:57, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Is this list about ethnic Estonians or about citizens of Estonia? E.g. Patriarch Alexius II is of Baltic-German/Russian descent and Paul Felix Schmidt is Baltic-German too. Mena Suvari and Ornella Muti on the other hand are of (partially) Estonian descent but not from Estonia. It doesn't seem plausible to have all these people in the same list. -- ::Slomox:: >< 22:32, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
List of Estonians article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The original list has been taken from http://www.russiannewsnetwork.com/fameston.html
I just erased one of the Kerli Koivs because there were two, just so y'all now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Giveittome667 ( talk • contribs) 21:56, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Jakob Mihkelson used to be the most famous of the Estonian emigrants in Sukhumi, Abkhazia, but he is far from being famous even in Estonia. - Andres
Kalevipoeg is a fictional hero and seems not to belong here. Andres
But could I make some order here? ABC etc.? Egon
For an international encyclopedia, I think that locally known (but not famous) persons who are just public figures, journalists, etc., but w/o any scientific or political interest or relevance, should not be on such a list, i.e. they are "not worthy" by wikipedia standards. By this criterion, I would suggest deleting at least
That's just suggestions, of course; if someone really wants to write an article on those, this would have to be looked at case-by-case.
Another issue is the problem of ethnicity, as is already clear with some ethnic or geographical descriptors above: Who is an "Estonian" in this context? Can it be ethnic background in the sense of blood? of language? What about the German Balts? What about German-Baltic and German scholars at Tartu, about politicians etc. from there? What about those who spent only a part of their lives in what is now Estonia? What about people of Estonian descent who went abroad? The list above has a heavy "ethnic" slant, but I think that, as is by now also the overall standard of all Estonian encyclopedias (Kes on Kes?, Eesti Entsüklopeedia, etc.), the criterion should be more inclusive (because the point here is the link to Estonia, rather the creation of an ethnic group), i.e. it should include all people whose life has been significantly linked to Estonia, i.e. Estonian origin, birth, or part of the life spent there. Clossius 09:09, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Hunnius was a Baltic German doctor who founded the mud therapy resort of Haapsalu, so he is important. Mihkel Jakobson was an important figure of Estonian emigration in Abkhazia. The list began as the list of ten most famous Estonians composed by Abkhazian Estonians. I don't know Steve Jurgenson but probably he is famous somewhere. Evar Saar is not an important figure. However, if the article about him is not found to be unworthy by the community of Wikipedia, then it should be here because the list also is the guide to the articles about articles on Estonians. Mihkel Aitsam has a similar status though he is not on the list.
Peeter Kreitsberg, Siiri Oviir and Sven Mikser are leading figures of Keskerakond next to Edgar Savisaar.
Tõnu Luik is a legend of philosophy in Estonia who is important for the Estonian culture. Hando Runnel is a major poet of an untranslatable kind. Rein Raud and Märt Väljataga are important "intellectuals" in Estonia. Raud is a professor at both Helsinki and Tallinn. Väljataga is the "Pope" of literature. Veidemann is a critic and by now a novelist (also a professor at Tartu).
Andres, I think the reason for our disagreement is that in the end, I do come from dead tree encyclopedia writing, and also from a perspective that believes that especially today, information selection is more important than information acquisition, and so I think that there should be some standards of general importance of a person or phenomenon included here. You seem to come from the web perspective, which is certainly legitimate as well, and which is much more inclusionary. I don't think these world view - dependent perspectives can be really "discussed out", and of course that means that yours prevails rather than mine, because it costs me less (intellectually speaking) to leave "unworthy" pieces in than it costs you to leave "worthy" people out.
What I still find problematic is your statement that "the point is not that someone has merit but that we can know something about someone, we can know or understand who he is," because clearly the wikipedia is against such an "understanding" approach and tries to focus on bare facts. I would agree with you that this would be nice, but how can you achieve this outside of judgment and evaluation, which you personally also seem to be queasy about (cf. the Parts discussion we had!).
A few words on the individual persons we discussed in this thread. I think that on Luik you are almost completely off the mark, also on the criteria. I think he is a clear phenomenon of a society in which Humanities were not allowed to freely develop and in which thus such people could florish and acquire a certainl mystique. In that sense, he could actually almost deserve an entry. However, I would absolutely insist that he is a literatus and not a scholar in any meaningful sense of the words, because - as you describe yourself - he does not meet any of the standards that apply, and can apply more or less objectively (because academe is after all an institution) to the latter. That includes the "lektor" issue, which could have been redeemed since about 15 years, but wasn't (and rightly so).
The only difficulty is that the policy of WP seems to hold that our personal opinions are not enough. There should be public opinions. And those public opinions, of course, would be on favour of Luik, since nobody would publicly blame him. But I think it is worth trying. OK, opinions can also be expressed "between the rows" though perhaps this is not fair.
On Jaan Einasto, I'll include that in his entry when it comes (he really deserves an entry from any perspective!), but briefly put, almost any astrophyiscists are also philosophers, and if you discuss the regular structure of the universe, you in the end won't be able to do that without Plato. On Raud, Väljataga, and Veidemann, I used "intelligentsia" advisedly. :-) I really think you overrate their importance in current Estonia (including cultural circles), but that's of course a judgment issue. The facts you list are that of regular careers - I don't think, for instance, that being a professor at Helsinki U and speaking Japanese per se is special; rather, that is normal. On Väljataga, I better take what you say in silence. :-)
As a result, with you masterminding the Estonian entries, indeed I think we have to have a very broad approach (yours!). So, the usual minister, professor, etc. should go in if someone writes an entry about her or him (but not any lektor, assistent, osakonna juhataja in a ministry, etc.). I would then say that only the truly frivolous cases should go out (students, business people promoting themselves, etc.). That includes Evar Saar, though, no? Clossius 07:08, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
You are getting very popular here, Andres! :-) Okay, I'll try to keep pace with just balancing with entries of statesmen, academics, and the like... at least you haven't, as I was afraid, put in Linnar Priimägi and Hasso Krull (yet). (Maybe I shouldn't have said that!) Clossius 19:14, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Andres 19:36, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I have added individuals back to the list who have Wikipedia articles written about them. Whether they are relevant or no is probably debatable. However, it would seem rather pointless to erase them in light of someone actually taking time to write an article on them. Case in point - Kristiina Ojuland. Who is, in fact, a rather well known individual even outside of Estonia. As is Jane Salumäe, who although has no article written as of yet, is a well known athlete abroad. Perhaps whoever is deleting names should consider these factors and leave names already appearing on the list and concentrate on on adding new names instead of deciding who should and should not be excluded. I scanned the list and certainly have no objections to most of the individuals appearing. Several I would not have added myself, but see that they at least have a modicum of success for someone to place them. I think it isn't appropriate to delete those who already have articles on Wikipedia.
---Fine, the page is yours to decide who is and who is not worthy of an entry. Have at it. Good luck. By the way, normally it is a common courtesy on Wikipedia to post on the discussion page before you make major changes to articles. Glad to see that you believe that doesn't apply to you and you can ride rough-shod over other people's work. As for Jane Salumäe's "best accomplishment in her field, according to sources, is the 4th place in European championships" well, that is simply untrue. She won the the 1998 Sydney Gold Coast marathon. But, as you are now the arbiter of the list, continue to do as you see fit.
I would delete the interwiki link here to japanese wikipedia. it seems to me it is not correct link. but maybe i'm wrong. Avjoska 07:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The concept of Estonian is ambiguous between ethnic Estonians and people borne or living in Estonia. Therefore I think that ethnic non-Estonian connected with Estonia and ethnic Estonians in other countries should be specially marked. Andres 13:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Come on... Jürgen Ligi as the famous "notable" Estonian?
I would love to have Mare Vint added to the list and at least stubs made for her and Ülo Õun, as I have some pictures of their art I could contribute. Both are obviously sufficiently grand to fit on the list. CarlJohanSveningsson ( talk)
Does anyone know, is that Swedish commander and administrator of the Swedish Gold Coast 16 - 22 April 1663 Tönnies Voss with Estonian heritage. I added it also to the Estonian heritage forum (in Estonian) Jaanusele ( talk) 09:57, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Is this list about ethnic Estonians or about citizens of Estonia? E.g. Patriarch Alexius II is of Baltic-German/Russian descent and Paul Felix Schmidt is Baltic-German too. Mena Suvari and Ornella Muti on the other hand are of (partially) Estonian descent but not from Estonia. It doesn't seem plausible to have all these people in the same list. -- ::Slomox:: >< 22:32, 3 January 2011 (UTC)