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Archive 1 |
Deleted "Ni Hao", since it hasn't entered English usage. Also, for proper Chinese grammer, it's "Ni Hao Ma", since it's a question.
even though ketchup also sounds like ketchup in amoy, I'd be more inclined to believe it comes from cantonese
I think the following should not be in the list;
kanji, ramen, zen, Yen, bonsai, Go, gyoza, koan.
Although most these words refer to things/concepts/ideas that originated from China, they are clearly English words of Japanese origin. LDHan 17:19, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Chinese characters are called hanzi in Chinese, and hanja in Korean. I wonder do you use the word gyoza to refer to East Asian dumplings (饺子 or 餃子) in general? LDHan 12:46, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Please don't twist my words. I did not say these were examples of false on'yomi. I said that on'yomi does not necessarily mean "Chinese". As for your examples, I don't feel they necessarily prove your point:
This use of 'on'yomi' as a shorthand for 'Chinese word' leads to some rather confusing results. For instance, the word 'daimyo', which was a quintessentially Japanese feudal class, can be traced back to Chinese origins according to your criteria:
As for 'daikon' itself, this is also derived from Chinese according to Endroit's criteria:
I think we need to look again at the definition at the start of the article: "Words of Chinese origin, i.e. loanwords that come from any member of the Chinese branch of the Sino-Tibetan language family". By this criterion, none of the loanwords from Japanese are 'Words of Chinese origin', because Japanese is decidedly not a 'member of the Chinese branch of the Sino-Tibetan language family'. Tracing the etymology of Japanese words back to Chinese roots does not make them into loanwords from Chinese.
Bathrobe 11:18, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
The definition given at the start of the article should determine what examples are included. The current definition is 'loanwords that come from the Chinese branch of the Sino-Tibetan family'. Since Japanese is not a 'member of the Chinese branch of the Sino-Tibetan language family', then English loanwords from Japanese should not be included. That is where the matter should rest.
But Endroit has come up with an 'etymological criterion' for the inclusion of Japanese on-yomi words. This criterion may be stated as follows:
I have pointed out two problems with this (I will recapitulate because Endroit keeps saying that 'Bathrobe hasn't proved that these words are not of Chinese origin', which is not the point I am making):
1 Japanese on-yomi words are not considered Chinese words by the Japanese. They may be classed as 漢語 but that is not the same as 'Chinese words'. No matter what the etymology, I can't see how you can justify treating a Japanese word as a Chinese word. It makes about as much sense as saying that チェンジ in Japanese is a borrowing from French on the grounds that English 'change' is etymologically derived from French 'changer' (or the Middle French Norman form of 'changer').
2 It can't automatically be assumed that 'on-yomi' words are 'Chinese words'. Of course words like 公案 were derived from Chinese words, and there are many other words like this. But the connection between on'yomi and Chinese is not as simple as it seems and on'yomi shouldn't be taken for granted as proving that a word is borrowed from Chinese. For example:
Rather than discuss theory, however, let's look what happens if we decide that any Japanese on-yomi word belongs in the list because it is, by definition, a 'Chinese word':
The point of the above is that the whole case for extending the definition of 'words of Chinese origin' to cover Japanese on-yomi words is so shot through with inconsistencies and loopholes that it should be dropped. I realise that some people feel that the borrowing of a word like 'koan' into English is a kind of 'surrogate borrowing' of the Chinese word 公案. But this concept is just too rubbery to be of use. Unless better arguments or criteria can be given, examples should be restricted to those that fit the definition at the start of the article: loanwords that come from the Chinese branch of the Sino-Tibetan family.
PS: I am not sure why you specifically decided to delete bonsai. It is true that the word is not used in modern Chinese. However, that does not definitively rule out the possibility that 盆栽 was used in Chinese at one stage and borrowed by the Japanese, but later died out in Chinese.
Bathrobe 00:51, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with Bathrobe's comment:
You are basically saying the origin is where it entered the English language. So if you travel from India to China to Japan and then to London, then your port of origin is Japan because it is the closest port of departure before you arrived at London. I have the opposite opinion, origin means the earliest etymological ancestor. The pot thickens when you are wearing a qipao from China, and a kimono from Japan. The immigration officer may not believe that you come from India. You basically have to list your path to explain why you look hybrid. The same applies to these words, they are hybrids when each language added something to them. Kowloonese 02:11, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Bathrobe
Incidentally, 'cumquat' is missing from the list. Bathrobe 00:37, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I forgot to look under the 'k's. In fact, the spelling 'cumquat' is also used. Bathrobe
I have checked out the List of English words of Arabic origin and the approach advocated by Kowloonese is adopted there. That is, Arabic words that entered English via Spanish are listed, and so are Arabic words that originally came from Sanskrit, Persian, or Latin. The whole list is in alphabetical order. There is, however, some debate over origins on the talk page.
I personally prefer an approach that separates out Japanese words. However, as I said, if contributors feel that an integrated list is preferable, it can be reverted.
Before any such step is taken, however, I would strongly urge that the introduction should be rewritten to remove its current Sinocentric bias. First, the definition needs to be changed to something broader, indicating that 'Chinese origin' also includes naturalised Japanese, Korean, or Vietnamese words (if the latter two exist) that have entered English. Secondly, the discussion of ways that words were carried from China into English needs to be modified to take account of borrowings via other languages. As the article stands, the impression that readers gain is that 'words of Chinese origin' means 'words that have entered English from Chinese', suggesting that Japanese and other languages are taken for granted as 'derivatives' of Chinese.
At the same time it might be useful to split the list up alphabetically like the Arabic list.
Incidentally, Confucianism and joss house are missing from the list. Websters gives the following etymology for joss house: "Joss \Joss\, noun. [Chinese, corrupt. from Portuguese deos God, from Latin expression deus.]"
Bathrobe 02:11, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
With regard to the on-yomi criterion, although this has been disavowed by Endroit above, I note that this list [8] includes quite a few words that appear to be Japanese coinages in its list of Chinese words. Bathrobe 02:28, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I've rewritten the intro and part of the 'Different sources of loanwords' section. I think it is a little better. If we are going to be professional, we need to add 'shogun', because Japanese did borrow it from Chinese -- with a note explaining the change in meaning.
The existence of penzai in a modern Chinese dictionary is not conclusive, especially if it is a traditional Chinese dictionary. Taiwan has borrowed quite a bit of vocabulary from Japanese that was not originally from Chinese. It is very easy to borrow such words because they are already in a Chinese-friendly form.
I think joss house may be pidgin, which makes it marginal as a Chinese word.
I won't oppose the reinsertion of Japanese words into the list. I don't know of any Korean or Vietnamese words, unless you include quoc ngu, which entered Vietnamese from Japanese via Chinese.
The information that I posted earlier about onyomi has not gone to waste. I've included it in the article on Sino-Japanese, which in its original form was very poorly written and jumbled concepts like 'Sino-Japanese', 'onyomi', 'word', 'pronunciation', 'vocabulary', and 'Chinese character' together in very confused and ill-defined manner. Bathrobe 03:37, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
It's not clear from the article whether this list should include words like "shanghai", as it in "He shanghaied me into serving potatoe salad at the ladies' picnic last week." "Shanghai" is obviously of Chinese origin, but the usage of the term as a verb is not. Readin ( talk) 05:08, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Though the Han Yu Pin Yin system spells it, "Nan Jing", in my 8 years living in Taiwan and Mainland China the most common spelling that I have encountered in English texts is "Nanking". This, not "Nankeen" seems to be the most widely accepted spelling when using English to refer to the city. I suggest that the creator of this page at least add "Nanking" as an alternate spelling, as it seems to be more common than "Nankeen", and is actually closer to the proper Mandarin pronunciation. By the way, this is a REALLY COOL page! Very well done.
Rick
I just wanted to add my agreement as well as my insight. Another extremely common spelling of this word is "Nankin". This spelling will not be going away as many people carry this as their surname. It is quite common among Jewish people as well in many countries.
from Mandarin 木須 (mùxū), lit. wood shredded
Two or three years ago we had a long discussion about this word and came to the conclusion that there was no merit in this explanation and lots of evidence to show that (regardless of how it may be written on menus) it is a name for a traditional recipe involving scrambled eggs added to slivers of other items, the little flecks of yellow (or maybe it was white) from the eggs being the feature that gave the dish its traditional name. I was the one who supplied the original guess as to the source of the name, but I changed my mind, so it seems odd to see the misinformation back again. P0M ( talk) 19:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
See the Chinese Wikipedia article on 木樨肉. It is named for the flowers (small white and yellow mixed appearance) of Osmanthus fragrans (木樨).
Suggest: from Mandarin 木樨肉 (mu4 xu1 rou4), a dish of slivered pork, vegetables, and scrambled eggs named for its resemblance to the flowers of Osmanthus fragrans.
Osmanthus fragrans can be found in the major garden shops in the U.S., but I don't know the accepted common name. P0M ( talk) 20:40, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
From the article on polo: The name polo is said to have been derived from the Tibetan word "pulu", meaning ball.[9]
If anyone feels this is worthy of inclusion please add it.
Anotherpowersource ( talk) 07:39, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
The entry for Dalai lama 达赖喇嘛 has been commented out. That decision was correct. The entry as (mis)written applies to 班禅喇嘛 -- a lesser eminence in the Tibetan Buddhist hierarchy. "Dalai lama" is a Tibetan term. It has been transliterated into Chinese characters relatively smoothly, but that doesn't make "Dalai Lama" into a Chinese word. The entry of "Dalai Lama" into English need not have been by way of Chinese, either.
If "tea" happened to come into English by way of the German language, that would not make "tea" a German loan-word in English. The ultimate source of "tea" is Chinese. Same difference.
I think we should just eliminate this bank shot. P0M ( talk) 05:36, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Umm...seems to me that some words are provided with romanisation of unkown Chinese dialects, i.e. the Latin spelling is given without specifying in which dialect it is pronouced that way. Wouldn't this cause some confusion, given the diversity of the Chinese spoken language 110.174.12.47 ( talk) 08:53, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
This article along with the English words of Japanese origins article should be deleted because there are very few actual English words of Chinese origin. What we have here are Chinese words that are translated into English and still refer to Chinese things. These are not words that entered into general use in English. There maybe 5 to 10 words that would fit the criteria of the title of being English words with Chinese origins and that is not worth maintaining an article for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:558:6031:4F:31CF:4D93:100A:5802 ( talk) 21:10, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't have time now, but these should help satisfy the Refimprove tag.
Keahapana ( talk) 21:13, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
I removed this section, because it's patently false. Tomato ketchup wasn't even invented until a century after the other types. The ketchup article describes the etymology as being from Indonesian-Malay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.238.148.8 ( talk) 22:45, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
"southern Mandarin pronunciation is qǐn"
This is not true. Southern people tend to pronounce syllables ending in "n" and "ng" the same due to unawareness or lack of education, but the pronunciation for both is "ng". This cannot be the reason why in English it's "n". -- 2.245.194.8 ( talk) 20:15, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
Absolutely no one has come up with any evidence whatsoever that it's from Chinese. Whereas it's been used for making toasts in Italy (spelt cin cin or cincin), which has had much more cultural contact with the Anglophone world, for centuries. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cin_cin https://www.theinternationalkitchen.com/blogs/2014/july/wine-toasting It seems to me people are taking a superficial resemblance to Chinese phonology and retroactively inventing a Chinese origin. See False etymology. I'm going to remove "chin chin". Anyone's free to put it back of course, but unless you have a verified source, it would just seem like repeating an urban legend. 189.131.69.101 ( talk) 20:30, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
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Most of them are not really a part of normal usage in English. The only exceptions I see are ketchup, go, typhoon, and tea. Even brain washing isn't a loan word, because it is brain washing, and not xinao. Real loanwords like words that come from French are pretty much written the same way they are in French. Champagne is champagne. Everything is just transliteration. You can't consider Bagdad, Jakarta, Laos, or Istanbul to be loan words. You also can't expect the British to create an entirely new word for the equivalent of Shanghai, or Dimsum, just like you can't create an English word for tapas, but that doesn't make tapas a loan word, just like kebab isn't a loan word, because we aren't calling all meat on a stick kebab, just meat on a stick cooked in Arab style. — Preceding unsigned comment added by R324234324 ( talk • contribs) 03:37, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
I love you 2605:8D80:681:F4C6:19BF:32D4:6BB4:EDB0 ( talk) 04:07, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
The etymology listed on this page is entirely different than on the Tangram wikipedia page. It is also very confusing. The definition links to the page for Middle Chinese, even though tangrams were invented far after that period. If it is meant to imply that the Tangram is named for the Tang Dynasty, it should instead link to that page, though I cannot find any source for that origin. I think based on a lack of evidence, the entry should instead be changed to match the etymology in the Tangram page. I also think that the description could be clarified, it just says "+ English gram" though gram can mean many things and the Tangram page refers specifically to the Greek-derived suffix "-gram" meaning "denoting something written or recorded". Most people are unfamiliar with that meaning and would instead likely think of the unit of weight with the way the description is written. Slach11 ( talk) 21:26, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Deleted "Ni Hao", since it hasn't entered English usage. Also, for proper Chinese grammer, it's "Ni Hao Ma", since it's a question.
even though ketchup also sounds like ketchup in amoy, I'd be more inclined to believe it comes from cantonese
I think the following should not be in the list;
kanji, ramen, zen, Yen, bonsai, Go, gyoza, koan.
Although most these words refer to things/concepts/ideas that originated from China, they are clearly English words of Japanese origin. LDHan 17:19, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Chinese characters are called hanzi in Chinese, and hanja in Korean. I wonder do you use the word gyoza to refer to East Asian dumplings (饺子 or 餃子) in general? LDHan 12:46, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Please don't twist my words. I did not say these were examples of false on'yomi. I said that on'yomi does not necessarily mean "Chinese". As for your examples, I don't feel they necessarily prove your point:
This use of 'on'yomi' as a shorthand for 'Chinese word' leads to some rather confusing results. For instance, the word 'daimyo', which was a quintessentially Japanese feudal class, can be traced back to Chinese origins according to your criteria:
As for 'daikon' itself, this is also derived from Chinese according to Endroit's criteria:
I think we need to look again at the definition at the start of the article: "Words of Chinese origin, i.e. loanwords that come from any member of the Chinese branch of the Sino-Tibetan language family". By this criterion, none of the loanwords from Japanese are 'Words of Chinese origin', because Japanese is decidedly not a 'member of the Chinese branch of the Sino-Tibetan language family'. Tracing the etymology of Japanese words back to Chinese roots does not make them into loanwords from Chinese.
Bathrobe 11:18, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
The definition given at the start of the article should determine what examples are included. The current definition is 'loanwords that come from the Chinese branch of the Sino-Tibetan family'. Since Japanese is not a 'member of the Chinese branch of the Sino-Tibetan language family', then English loanwords from Japanese should not be included. That is where the matter should rest.
But Endroit has come up with an 'etymological criterion' for the inclusion of Japanese on-yomi words. This criterion may be stated as follows:
I have pointed out two problems with this (I will recapitulate because Endroit keeps saying that 'Bathrobe hasn't proved that these words are not of Chinese origin', which is not the point I am making):
1 Japanese on-yomi words are not considered Chinese words by the Japanese. They may be classed as 漢語 but that is not the same as 'Chinese words'. No matter what the etymology, I can't see how you can justify treating a Japanese word as a Chinese word. It makes about as much sense as saying that チェンジ in Japanese is a borrowing from French on the grounds that English 'change' is etymologically derived from French 'changer' (or the Middle French Norman form of 'changer').
2 It can't automatically be assumed that 'on-yomi' words are 'Chinese words'. Of course words like 公案 were derived from Chinese words, and there are many other words like this. But the connection between on'yomi and Chinese is not as simple as it seems and on'yomi shouldn't be taken for granted as proving that a word is borrowed from Chinese. For example:
Rather than discuss theory, however, let's look what happens if we decide that any Japanese on-yomi word belongs in the list because it is, by definition, a 'Chinese word':
The point of the above is that the whole case for extending the definition of 'words of Chinese origin' to cover Japanese on-yomi words is so shot through with inconsistencies and loopholes that it should be dropped. I realise that some people feel that the borrowing of a word like 'koan' into English is a kind of 'surrogate borrowing' of the Chinese word 公案. But this concept is just too rubbery to be of use. Unless better arguments or criteria can be given, examples should be restricted to those that fit the definition at the start of the article: loanwords that come from the Chinese branch of the Sino-Tibetan family.
PS: I am not sure why you specifically decided to delete bonsai. It is true that the word is not used in modern Chinese. However, that does not definitively rule out the possibility that 盆栽 was used in Chinese at one stage and borrowed by the Japanese, but later died out in Chinese.
Bathrobe 00:51, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with Bathrobe's comment:
You are basically saying the origin is where it entered the English language. So if you travel from India to China to Japan and then to London, then your port of origin is Japan because it is the closest port of departure before you arrived at London. I have the opposite opinion, origin means the earliest etymological ancestor. The pot thickens when you are wearing a qipao from China, and a kimono from Japan. The immigration officer may not believe that you come from India. You basically have to list your path to explain why you look hybrid. The same applies to these words, they are hybrids when each language added something to them. Kowloonese 02:11, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Bathrobe
Incidentally, 'cumquat' is missing from the list. Bathrobe 00:37, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I forgot to look under the 'k's. In fact, the spelling 'cumquat' is also used. Bathrobe
I have checked out the List of English words of Arabic origin and the approach advocated by Kowloonese is adopted there. That is, Arabic words that entered English via Spanish are listed, and so are Arabic words that originally came from Sanskrit, Persian, or Latin. The whole list is in alphabetical order. There is, however, some debate over origins on the talk page.
I personally prefer an approach that separates out Japanese words. However, as I said, if contributors feel that an integrated list is preferable, it can be reverted.
Before any such step is taken, however, I would strongly urge that the introduction should be rewritten to remove its current Sinocentric bias. First, the definition needs to be changed to something broader, indicating that 'Chinese origin' also includes naturalised Japanese, Korean, or Vietnamese words (if the latter two exist) that have entered English. Secondly, the discussion of ways that words were carried from China into English needs to be modified to take account of borrowings via other languages. As the article stands, the impression that readers gain is that 'words of Chinese origin' means 'words that have entered English from Chinese', suggesting that Japanese and other languages are taken for granted as 'derivatives' of Chinese.
At the same time it might be useful to split the list up alphabetically like the Arabic list.
Incidentally, Confucianism and joss house are missing from the list. Websters gives the following etymology for joss house: "Joss \Joss\, noun. [Chinese, corrupt. from Portuguese deos God, from Latin expression deus.]"
Bathrobe 02:11, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
With regard to the on-yomi criterion, although this has been disavowed by Endroit above, I note that this list [8] includes quite a few words that appear to be Japanese coinages in its list of Chinese words. Bathrobe 02:28, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I've rewritten the intro and part of the 'Different sources of loanwords' section. I think it is a little better. If we are going to be professional, we need to add 'shogun', because Japanese did borrow it from Chinese -- with a note explaining the change in meaning.
The existence of penzai in a modern Chinese dictionary is not conclusive, especially if it is a traditional Chinese dictionary. Taiwan has borrowed quite a bit of vocabulary from Japanese that was not originally from Chinese. It is very easy to borrow such words because they are already in a Chinese-friendly form.
I think joss house may be pidgin, which makes it marginal as a Chinese word.
I won't oppose the reinsertion of Japanese words into the list. I don't know of any Korean or Vietnamese words, unless you include quoc ngu, which entered Vietnamese from Japanese via Chinese.
The information that I posted earlier about onyomi has not gone to waste. I've included it in the article on Sino-Japanese, which in its original form was very poorly written and jumbled concepts like 'Sino-Japanese', 'onyomi', 'word', 'pronunciation', 'vocabulary', and 'Chinese character' together in very confused and ill-defined manner. Bathrobe 03:37, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
It's not clear from the article whether this list should include words like "shanghai", as it in "He shanghaied me into serving potatoe salad at the ladies' picnic last week." "Shanghai" is obviously of Chinese origin, but the usage of the term as a verb is not. Readin ( talk) 05:08, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Though the Han Yu Pin Yin system spells it, "Nan Jing", in my 8 years living in Taiwan and Mainland China the most common spelling that I have encountered in English texts is "Nanking". This, not "Nankeen" seems to be the most widely accepted spelling when using English to refer to the city. I suggest that the creator of this page at least add "Nanking" as an alternate spelling, as it seems to be more common than "Nankeen", and is actually closer to the proper Mandarin pronunciation. By the way, this is a REALLY COOL page! Very well done.
Rick
I just wanted to add my agreement as well as my insight. Another extremely common spelling of this word is "Nankin". This spelling will not be going away as many people carry this as their surname. It is quite common among Jewish people as well in many countries.
from Mandarin 木須 (mùxū), lit. wood shredded
Two or three years ago we had a long discussion about this word and came to the conclusion that there was no merit in this explanation and lots of evidence to show that (regardless of how it may be written on menus) it is a name for a traditional recipe involving scrambled eggs added to slivers of other items, the little flecks of yellow (or maybe it was white) from the eggs being the feature that gave the dish its traditional name. I was the one who supplied the original guess as to the source of the name, but I changed my mind, so it seems odd to see the misinformation back again. P0M ( talk) 19:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
See the Chinese Wikipedia article on 木樨肉. It is named for the flowers (small white and yellow mixed appearance) of Osmanthus fragrans (木樨).
Suggest: from Mandarin 木樨肉 (mu4 xu1 rou4), a dish of slivered pork, vegetables, and scrambled eggs named for its resemblance to the flowers of Osmanthus fragrans.
Osmanthus fragrans can be found in the major garden shops in the U.S., but I don't know the accepted common name. P0M ( talk) 20:40, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
From the article on polo: The name polo is said to have been derived from the Tibetan word "pulu", meaning ball.[9]
If anyone feels this is worthy of inclusion please add it.
Anotherpowersource ( talk) 07:39, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
The entry for Dalai lama 达赖喇嘛 has been commented out. That decision was correct. The entry as (mis)written applies to 班禅喇嘛 -- a lesser eminence in the Tibetan Buddhist hierarchy. "Dalai lama" is a Tibetan term. It has been transliterated into Chinese characters relatively smoothly, but that doesn't make "Dalai Lama" into a Chinese word. The entry of "Dalai Lama" into English need not have been by way of Chinese, either.
If "tea" happened to come into English by way of the German language, that would not make "tea" a German loan-word in English. The ultimate source of "tea" is Chinese. Same difference.
I think we should just eliminate this bank shot. P0M ( talk) 05:36, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Umm...seems to me that some words are provided with romanisation of unkown Chinese dialects, i.e. the Latin spelling is given without specifying in which dialect it is pronouced that way. Wouldn't this cause some confusion, given the diversity of the Chinese spoken language 110.174.12.47 ( talk) 08:53, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
This article along with the English words of Japanese origins article should be deleted because there are very few actual English words of Chinese origin. What we have here are Chinese words that are translated into English and still refer to Chinese things. These are not words that entered into general use in English. There maybe 5 to 10 words that would fit the criteria of the title of being English words with Chinese origins and that is not worth maintaining an article for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:558:6031:4F:31CF:4D93:100A:5802 ( talk) 21:10, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't have time now, but these should help satisfy the Refimprove tag.
Keahapana ( talk) 21:13, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
I removed this section, because it's patently false. Tomato ketchup wasn't even invented until a century after the other types. The ketchup article describes the etymology as being from Indonesian-Malay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.238.148.8 ( talk) 22:45, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
"southern Mandarin pronunciation is qǐn"
This is not true. Southern people tend to pronounce syllables ending in "n" and "ng" the same due to unawareness or lack of education, but the pronunciation for both is "ng". This cannot be the reason why in English it's "n". -- 2.245.194.8 ( talk) 20:15, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
Absolutely no one has come up with any evidence whatsoever that it's from Chinese. Whereas it's been used for making toasts in Italy (spelt cin cin or cincin), which has had much more cultural contact with the Anglophone world, for centuries. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cin_cin https://www.theinternationalkitchen.com/blogs/2014/july/wine-toasting It seems to me people are taking a superficial resemblance to Chinese phonology and retroactively inventing a Chinese origin. See False etymology. I'm going to remove "chin chin". Anyone's free to put it back of course, but unless you have a verified source, it would just seem like repeating an urban legend. 189.131.69.101 ( talk) 20:30, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:37, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Most of them are not really a part of normal usage in English. The only exceptions I see are ketchup, go, typhoon, and tea. Even brain washing isn't a loan word, because it is brain washing, and not xinao. Real loanwords like words that come from French are pretty much written the same way they are in French. Champagne is champagne. Everything is just transliteration. You can't consider Bagdad, Jakarta, Laos, or Istanbul to be loan words. You also can't expect the British to create an entirely new word for the equivalent of Shanghai, or Dimsum, just like you can't create an English word for tapas, but that doesn't make tapas a loan word, just like kebab isn't a loan word, because we aren't calling all meat on a stick kebab, just meat on a stick cooked in Arab style. — Preceding unsigned comment added by R324234324 ( talk • contribs) 03:37, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
I love you 2605:8D80:681:F4C6:19BF:32D4:6BB4:EDB0 ( talk) 04:07, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
The etymology listed on this page is entirely different than on the Tangram wikipedia page. It is also very confusing. The definition links to the page for Middle Chinese, even though tangrams were invented far after that period. If it is meant to imply that the Tangram is named for the Tang Dynasty, it should instead link to that page, though I cannot find any source for that origin. I think based on a lack of evidence, the entry should instead be changed to match the etymology in the Tangram page. I also think that the description could be clarified, it just says "+ English gram" though gram can mean many things and the Tangram page refers specifically to the Greek-derived suffix "-gram" meaning "denoting something written or recorded". Most people are unfamiliar with that meaning and would instead likely think of the unit of weight with the way the description is written. Slach11 ( talk) 21:26, 20 March 2023 (UTC)