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Disputes not withstanding, the indiscriminate use of fair use images in list articles such as this one is not supported. For the supporting policy, see WP:NFCC. For supporting guideline, see Wikipedia:NFC#Non-free_image_use_in_list_articles. See similar discussion at Talk:Supporting_Harry_Potter_characters#Overuse_of_fair_use_images and Talk:List_of_James_Bond_henchmen_in_Die_Another_Day#Fair_use_image_removal (and observe that fair use images remain removed or tightly limited on those two articles). -- Hammersoft ( talk) 17:48, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
In The Five Doctors, the Second Doctor mentions a female villain, I think it started with a 'V', to the Brigadier, then mentiones that he hasn't heard of her because the encounter hasn't happened yet.
Later, much later, the Sixth Doctor mentions this character as well.
I cannot remember the name, but I'm almost certain it starts with a 'V' and is referred to as a female. She may not have an appearance, but has been referred to as "a real villain" by the Sixth Doctor, and deserves a stub of mention here.
Can anyone recall who that was?
(For the record, it's my theory that it was her hand that picked up the Master's Ring at the end of Last of the Time Lords, just because it would be more amusing than it being The Rani like many other people have surmised.) 96.225.212.89 ( talk) 05:34, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
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[1] Could be of interest? Hrcolyer ( talk) 12:34, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
What are the criteria for inclusion in this list? The header describes it as "a list of villains from the long-running British science fiction television series Doctor Who".
Most of the entries are from the TV series, as per header, but there are several from novels (e.g. Eve), comics (e.g Pied Piper), and audio adventures (e.g. Sebastian Grayle, Headhunter).
My initial thought is that they don't belong in this list, given its description. 86.7.30.217 ( talk) 19:05, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Not meaning to nitpick, but the section on Sutekh is quite fundamentally wrong. Sutekh was imprisoned on Earth, not on Mars. [1] I haven't checked any of the other entries. Poglad ( talk) 11:00, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
It's been corrected. DonQuixote ( talk) 11:41, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
Viewing this page on mobile results in a giant black screen popping up spoiling the season finale. I can't find it in the edit code, so it must be some type of inject through secondary means. Can someone with more knowledge on Wikipedia fix this and maybe lock the pages? 173.62.183.163 ( talk) 05:29, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
It doesn’t any more. I edit from an iPhone SE, so I don’t know if that changes anything DoctorWhoEditor2 ( talk) 22:33, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Just like to point out that citing one source that says one thing, citing another source that says another thing and putting them together within the context of a single character, as is the case here, is synthesis. That is to say, quoting the War Games novelisation, which mentions the War Chief, and quoting the Colony in Space novelisation, which mentions the Master, and then juxtaposing them under the War Chief to lead the reader to the conclusion that they are the same character is original research. We need a reliable source to say that that's what's going on here in the novelisations. What we can do, however, is summarise each novelization in such a way as to retain what the texts imply without leading the reader to a conclusion, such as the summary of Tymewrm: Exodus. Also, there is excessive quoting of the source materials as if to prove through interpretation of the text (original research) that the connection should be emphasized (with the corresponding personal emphasis of key words and phrases).
Bottom line: the way that it's presented now is original research that favours one POV. (Note that the editor of the new material removed the bit about FASA mentioning that the Master and the War Chief were allies [2]...which, incidentally needed a cn tag.)
Also, see talk:Master (Doctor Who) for previous discussions. DonQuixote ( talk) 15:32, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
That's a, eh, creative way of interpreting things. The Colony in Space novelisation recaps what is The War Games. And leading directly into that is the two Time Lords talking about the Doctor and The Master and the younger one asking the older to tell him more about the Doctor and the Master. You only consider it synthesis, because you don't like what it says. It is also properly sourced, unlike more than 90% of this article. And certainly unlike the FASA piece, which was someone just stating something, without a WP:RS(for which see WP:BURDEN. And indeed, the only part of the Timewyrm:Exodus piece (the paragraph that that you seem to hold up as the shining example) that was sourced, was sourced by me. Yup, the rest has no WP:RS, has never had a RS, yet you regard that as being the thing to aim for. It is only the last sentence that was given a RS, and that was by me.
There is nothing that I added that was unsourced. In addition, every source explicitly mentions The War Chief and/or The War Games. What you don't like is that the source material also happens to make it clear what became of the War Chief after the War Games, and to remove that bit would destroy the source material. I have not made any pronouncements, I have merely provided relevant RS(which mention the War Chief and/or the War Games), removed unsourced statements(and haven't even scratched the surface of those unsourced statements). Yet this upsets you to the point that you felt the need to break the WP:3RR, and have now started this totally unnecessary discussion. 41.135.172.46 ( talk) 06:17, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
That was not a straw man. You are not even addressing the actual issues. The Timewyrm part was clearly the fact that you were happy to leave in a totally unsourced section, and even mentioned it as being how the whole article should be...while at the same time repeatedly removing(breaking the WP:3RR in the process) information that did indeed have valid WP:RS. You praise unsourced material, but start an edit war over sourced material. And again, you and you alone seem to feel that this some sort of WP:SYNTHESIS and/or WP:OR. However, every WP:RS explicitly refers to the War Chief and/or the War Games. The Colony in Space novelisation can be cited here as it specifically refers to the events of the War Games, and both gives background information on, as well as tells what happened to the Time Lord who had organised the War Games. Which is exactly what an article(well a few paragraphs in an article on the War Chief should do). And it is all properly sourced. Unlike the Timewyrm bit, where the only proper source was added by yours truly. So, it is not original research. And it is not synthesis. It is a set of WP:RS that both give background information on, as well telling the next move(s) of, the War Chief. I have not stated "the War Chief is the Master", because the sources I added do not say that in those exact words. They do however refer to the War Chief and the War Games, and give information on both. With proper RS. If someone wants to properly source the Legions Of Death, then please go ahead, and state exactly what it says there, word-for-word. And the Wikipedia reader can decide for him/herself, from whatever RS there are. And none of it is OR or SYNTHESIS. 41.135.42.99 ( talk) 06:55, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, I fail to see what you are even saying about the Timewyrm part now. As I have already stated:
You said that you think the Timewyrm part is the best post-War Games part of the section. However, up until very recently, the Timewyrm section was completely unsourced and was complete OR(as is 90% of the List of Doctor Who villains article as a whole!) The only sourced section of the Timewyrm paragraph was added by me, not you DonQuixote...me. Are you now taking credit for adding sources?....And then you complain and start an edit war over the only section in the entire article that has been meticulously sourced? That is what I find strange, and that is what I have now stated again.
Now, as far as "inference" or anything similar...that is what you claim. Again the sections are WP:RS that refer to the War Chief and the War Games, and give deeper biographical detail as to the character of the War Chief(you know the subject of the section). Everything that was added was entirely relevant, and was reliably sourced. Now, does it infer that the War Chief is the Master? Indeed it does, but that is neither OR nor SYNTHESIS. It is the RS that speaks of the War Chief. As you say, as the sources do not say "The War Chief is the Master", that has not been added to the article. Neither was the War Chief section merged into the Master (Doctor Who) article. However, what is clear is that these reliably sourced bits come from official, verifiable sources, and they are all absolutely relevant. I don't really see why this discussion even exists. As I stated, if someone finds a WP:RS that states something to the contrary, and it is properly sourced then it must be added to the article. However, your problem is with properly sourced material that is about the War Chief and the War Games. And it is neither OR nor SYNTHESIS. 41.135.42.99 ( talk) 16:57, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
No. I gave WP:RS that all refer to the War Chief and/or the War Games. This expands the biographical detail of the War Chief. The reason I used the sources I did, and not any others, is that these are the ones that do just that. End of story. Anything else is entirely your problem. 41.135.42.129 ( talk) 18:42, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
No. it is not OR. And it is not SYNTHESIS. All it is is a collection of RS, all of which specifically refer to the War Chief and/or the War Games, and add biographical detail about the War Chief. What you object to is the content of this biographical detail of the War Chief. Whatever you may claim, everything I added is a RS, everything I added specifically refers to the War Chief and/or the War Games, and everything I added gives additional biographical detail to the character of the War Chief. You are only claiming SYNTHESIS and OR because of what the Reliably Sourced information says about the War Chief. As I stated, if someone can properly source something like the Legions of Death FASA Game, then please go ahead immediately. I don't have a copy of the module, so i can not. And if someone does just that, I will most definitely not claim OR or SYNTHESIS, like you are doing with these reliably sourced pieces of information about the War Chief. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.116.93 ( talk) 07:08, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, but your argument is nonexistent. You said "synthesis", so that means it is "synthesis"? You need to explain how it is synthesis. Not merely say "I said synthesis". And, for the umpteenth time, all of those are WP:RS. They all mention The War Chief and/or The War Games. Therefore all they are are RS that add additional biographical detail to the War Chief. Please understand that if you claim something, you need to explain why that is relevant. Which you have failed to do. Let me say it for the millionth time....Everything I added was a WP:RS that directly references the War Chief and/or the War Games. That is not SYNTHESIS. That is not OR. The only one who has a problem is you, because you dislike what the RS actually state(and again 99% of this article is completely unsourced, yet you take no issue with any of that...). So, it is not SYNTHESIS, it RS that directly relates to the actual topic of the section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.229.135 ( talk) 06:47, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
Well, you need to work on your reading comprehension, as well as your manners. Let's say this for the millionth time... Every source I added explicitly mentions the War Chief and/or the War Games. And this is a section about the War Chief. Wow! Fancy that. That's not synthesis, that's just trying to improve the article. The only reason you are claiming synthesis, is because of the content of those WP:RS that explicitly mention the War Chief and/or the War Games. Did I at any point ever state or imply anything that is not directly mentioned in the sources? No. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.229.135 ( talk) 13:39, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
It mentions the War Games, and adds information on the Time Lord who organised the War Games. That's not SYNTHESIS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.229.135 ( talk) 16:08, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
Hang on. Didn't DonQuixote just state that all the sections here give an overview of the story they're in? But now those stories themselves don't count? Should this entire article(from A to Z) be deleted then? And how can the original themselves not be a [[WP:RS}]? because then we would have to remove most of the articles about audios, novels etc. as well as all the characters contained therein. And are you seriously bringing up the canonicity argument? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.133.46.222 ( talk) 05:34, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
You are yet to actually answer the questions I have posed to you. And your own arguments are self-contradictory.
1)There are virtually no sources whatsoever for the article at large(your "summaries" are unsourced. For that matter it is most unusual that you criticise text which is quoted verbatim from the sources, and praise "summaries". Surely the "summaries" are the OR, and the quoted text is properly sourced)?)
2)There is nothing whatsoever in the sources I provided that is in any way OR. I have placed text(all explicitly referring to the War Chief and/or the War Games) from WP:RS into a section on the War Chief. In fact, this is the only section in the entire article that actually meets the WP:RS standards. Your problem is what these Reliably Sourced make clear. I have not stated anything other than what is stated verbatim in the text, all with RS. Your proposed "solution" to this nonexistent "problem" is to use OR, and summarise it! There is no conflict of interest. All we have here are Reliable Sourced sections of text that are relevant to the section of the article. That is it. That is exactly what Malcolm Hulke and Terrance Dicks(the men who created the character of the War Chief) stated, word-for-word(except the Timewyrm:Exodus bit which still needs stronger sourcing). Yet you have some problem with that, and your solution is to use OR, and rewrite it, removing RS, and using OR to rephrase it to your personal tastes. Clearly, you have a problem with the one and only section on this article that is RS, simply because of what those RS actually state. Lastly, what do you mean by "[my] interpretation of the text"? That is the text, the text written by Malcolm Hulke and/or Terrance Dicks. I did not write it. The men who wrote the War Games did. They selected those words very carefully, being professional writers/authors, and Dicks was Script Editor for the television series, and Editor for the Target Books line. There is nothing whatsoever in those Reliably Sourced sections that is "mine". It is the words of the creators, who are indeed acknowledged experts in the field. And as you admit, you are not... 197.87.8.92 ( talk) 06:11, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Ignoring your attempt at humour that is a personal attack, you have been contradicting yourself over and over, and refusing to read what i have actually posted. Since you persist in trying to make this an endless loop, how about this....On this very discussion page, below this post of mine, post a draft what you believe the section should look like and we can take it from there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.87.8.92 ( talk) 18:35, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Now, what is so wrong with the Role Playing game that it had to be deleted from the section? It's exactly what it says in the sourcebook, does something need changing? If so, it can be changed. 86.31.131.239 ( talk) 19:22, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Nay, nay and thrice nay.
First to 86, you did not cite any references or sources. Unless you explicitly state the ISBN, page no, and quote it word-for-word, it counts as WP:OR. And as it stands now it is very much OR. In fatc I would be well within my rights to delete it immediately, but I'll give you the opportunity to correct it.
Next, the Colony in Space novelisation explicitly mentions the War Games. That is not or synthesis. Or if it is, then approximately 80% of Wikipedia articles relating to Doctor Who need to be seriously pruned or far worse cases of or and/or synthesis.
Lastly, the Target book has the War Chief(named as such) explicitly stating that the Doctor(as he is travelling in a time-space machine) can only be one person. I noticed that that never made it into your "acceptable" version.
Oh, there is more. By your "summarising" things, and completely rewording events, making assumptions, and giving your own interpretation, you are clearly using OR. Which is why what I included was cited word-for-word from the original sources, all of which were meticulously cited. Unlike your "summary" or the totally unsourced FASA section.
Which does rather beg the question as to why DonQuixote is so obsessed with this one section, while happily accepting the remainder of the article's lack of ANY sources. Or the HUGE amounts of what must totally be synthesis or OR according to his definitions, all over pretty much every Dr Who article... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.229.102 ( talk) 07:12, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I do not have anything against any relevant text being quoted, as long as it is cited properly. If the Legions of Death states that, and you have quoted and cited it properly, then you have done a great job. I was under the impression that Wikipedia is about providing all reliably sourced material relating to a subject, citing it properly, and at all times maintaining a neutral point of view. So, the quoted texts from the War Games(television serial and novelisation), Timewyrm:Exodus, the FASA Game and the Doomsday Weapon are all equal, provided they are all properly sourced(which they now are, except the Timewyrm one is still a bit OR). I was in two minds about Time's Champion, as it was already commissioned as a PDA, but ended being an unauthorised charity publication. Best not to include that one, probably.
However, DonQuixote(and a friend of his over on the Master(Doctor Who) article), clearly do not agree. For them, it is important to maintain their point of view. This leads to some rather self-contradictory statements. As an example, the FASA Game explicitly stating that the War Chief is not the Master is a valid source. However, the same FASA Game stating that the Monk IS the Master is NOT a valid source. DonQuxiote using OR to "summarise"(without a single WP:RS ) a story is a valid source. Me quoting something verbatim from the same story, with correct citations is both an invalid source AND OR. Oh, and SYNTHESIS! Doctor Who is an interesting thing, as different sources give conflicting takes on the same thing. I assumed it was Wikipedia policy to give fair weight to each(provided each is properly sourced, with correct citations, and what it actually says, not what someone "summarises" it as).... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.229.102 ( talk) 09:48, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
The Colony in Space novel explicitly refers to the War Games, and explicitly links a character called 'The Master' to that. No, it does not use the phrase "War Chief". However, it does specifically refer to the events of the War Games... Your earlier proposal removed multiple OR that do use the exact phrase "War Chief"...Lastly, the rest of this article contains virtually no RS. it is a bunch of people giving summaries of stories, characters etc., with no RS. And, of course summarising means using OR. perhaps the Doomsday Weapon piece may not be appropriate here, but it is certainly relevant to the The War Games article...I also feel that you have a bias, in that over at the Master article, one source stating that roger Delgado had played the Master was relevant, whereas another RS that stated that peter Butterworth had played the Master was dismissed out of hand. As I said, Wikipedia needs to maintain a NPOV. There is indeed much conflicting evidence, and it is wrong to state that "x is relevant", but that "y is synthesis". That is the very definition of POV and OR. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.229.102 ( talk) 16:15, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Could you please join the discussion that everyone else is having? It may help.
The Colony in Space novelisation specifically refers to the War Games. Therefore it's relevant to the War Chief. It's not synthesis or OR. If we were to take your extreme viewpoint, then about 90% of all Wikipedia articles would have to be removed as being synthesis and/or OR. It is unusual that this one small section in particular elicits such passion from you, yet none of the totally unsourced and rambling articles that I see you have made minor edits to.
The Master Module lists actors who have played the Master, and Butterworth is one of those(it should be noted now, in case yo 'discover' it later, that Brayshaw is not listed as one of them). As far as "no such character had been created yet". That is just YOUR POV and OR. Was Alex Kingston playing Mels in Silence in the Library? Well, according to you, no such character had been created yet! Please stop pushing your OR on this discussion.
As far as summarising, well you are NOT using the original text. You are rewriting it in a different manner, that hopefully gets the bullet points across. But by changing the original wording, you are most definitely using OR. As well as using OR to decide which points are important, and which are not. And, in your case, which are relevant and which are not. It's not rocket science. Especially since it explicitly states that the War Chief remarked that a)there is only one person the Doctor can be and b)the War Chief and the Doctor are two of a kind, yet BOTH of those statements escaped your proposed summary. Fancy that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.133.0.30 ( talk) 05:41, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Carefully weighed by who? You no doubt. You have been rude. You have made wild exaggerations. When asked for specifics, you can only beat your chest and make vague statements. And if you are indeed so passionate about adhering to the consensus and policies of Wikipedia, why do you seem to have such a one-purpose account?
Lastly, your bit about background information/production etc? You can not possibly be being serious, can you? You have "summarised" lengthy sections, used your OR and POV etc. But...how many of these Doctor Who villains entries have any background information about the production? But, according to your ever-changing policies, that would mean that this whole article should be deleted. Furthermore, it doesn't care how many people are engaged in those activities. ONE person who is reliable and has published a book outweighs a bunch of illiterate blogging nobodies.
So please, before you post another lengthy retort...please provide a single stable position. You have shifted your goals so many times, we're not even on the same field as when this discussion started. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.59.42 ( talk) 06:43, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
The record's stuck...the record's stuck...the record's stuck... (and is it really necessary to repeat what I said back to me ad nausea?)
Let's go through this nicely:
1)You, and you alone, object to the inclusion of RELIABLY SOURCED material, because it is somehow OR and/or SYNTHESIS(despite the fact it directly references the War Chief and/or the War Games in the sources)
2)We agree that sources should be what is cited and not someone's intepreation of what it actually says.
3)You have repeatedly stated that information must be "out-of-universe".
4)You then state that it is best to summarise the storylines in the article.
5)But you ALSO state we must not have ANY "in-universe" details.
6)You state that sources by people who have analysed and studied the relevant material is ideal.
7)But not apparently if it contradicts your POV.
Basically, the best argument against certain points you have made in this discussion can be found in other points you have made in this discussion. Again, you have posted lengthy, self-contradictory confused essays that fail to make clear exactly what you are saying. The only thing that has been made clear is that you personally wish for certain Reliably Sourced and properly cited additions that i made to the article to be removed, as you do not like what they imply.
As far as the FASA Game, who exactly made you the authority? It is YOUR OR that the character was later joined together from two separate characters. That is a RS. It is not your place to make definitive statements. Especially since in this entire discussion you are the only one who has yet to provide ANY RS for any of the multiple tangled points you have made. Your POV is NOT a RS. Published sources which I and 86 have provided ARE RS. And your personal wishes do not trump Wikipedia Policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.49.188 ( talk) 09:11, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
Clearly that is your POV. Your statement about Butterworth is a POV. if there is a RS that states Butterworth played the Master, then it counts, whether you believe it to be true or not. As for DonQuixote, again he has not "bent over backwards". All he has done is make a variety of hopelessly contradictory claims, assertions and stating his personal feelings. He has still completely failed to provide one valid, stable position. Every time he makes a statement I have been able to explain. He then changes the fundamentals of his argument in such a way that contradicts something he previously said. It is clear that this whole article as a whole(and indeed a great deal of Wikipedia Doctor Who-related articles) are in a great need of proper citations, cleaning up, and general fixing. However DonQuixote has fixated on my adding some RS, simply because of his personal feelings. Again, if a proper WP:RS states something, then see WP:V. As anyone who has followed Doctor Who for any period knows, there is contradictory information about certain aspects of the show, its production, characters, dating etc. It must most definitely not be Wikipedia's position to choose one, and state that something else can not be valid. As has been stated, I provided RS, 86 provided contradictory RS, someone else may provide a RS with a third totally different set of information. However, DonQuixote has provided nothing. All he has done is make assertions, and drag this discussion out long after his points were shown to be false. Again, see WP:V. And to MarnetteD, you have shown POV and OR with some of your statements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.49.189 ( talk) 06:46, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
Nope. You made bold statements, without any sources. You dismiss out of hand anything that may contradict your own POV. As an example, the WR:RS that 86 provided was blithely dismissed with some irrelevant analogy. Why? Your comment about "there is no way that...can be construed as being the same character..." is pure and unadulterated POV. You believe one point. You refuse to allow as WP:RS anything that even hints anything to the contrary. As I stated earlier, this is not a simple black-and-white issue. Like the infamous UNIT dating, there is conflicting evidence here, all of it equally WP:RS. It should, and indeed is, Wikipedia Policy to maintain a Neutral Point of View. However, you and DonQuixote both insist that Wikipedia maintain your point of view, and even dismiss official, licensed publications that 86 sourced, simply because it goes against your POV. And again, neither you or DonQuixote have provided a single source, reliable or otherwise, to back up your position. You claim about "Who is Doctor Who"? prove it. Cite it properly according to RS standards, otherwise it's simply an unsourced statement.
Lastly, and most importantly, where/when did I ever add "The War Chief is the Master" or "The War Chief is the Monk" or "The Monk is the Master" to this article? Nowhere, that's where. What I did do was provide properly cited WP:RS to an article about the War Chief. All of which specifically refer to the War Chief and/or the War Games. Also I am the only one to have added properly cited WP:RS to the Timewyrm:Exodus section of this article(which you don't have a problem with...) Had I stated something not in the sources, then it would of course be wrong. But I never did anything of the sort. Instead I merely added relevant, properly cited and sourced information, that is relevant to the subject matter. As did 86. And the information contains three scenarios, each contradictory with the other two. However, you and DonQuixote are objecting to one of the three, because you claim to definitively know information. And even while you staunchly maintain that the FASA Guide is not a WP:RS for one thing(Butteroworth played the Master), you are perfectly happy with what it says when it comes to something else(the War Chief and the Master were allies). Like DonQuixote, you please need to accept that a)you need to maintain a single stable position. and b)Your POV is not a WP:RS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.42.233 ( talk) 12:33, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
Fordx12 ( talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.
Okay, allow me to see if I got this right. DonQuixote believes that the War Cheif and The Master are being linked as the same person despite the sources not stating this to be true (According to DonQuixote) and that the IP editor (hence forth known as "anon") feels that the sources do show that the War Cheif and The Master are one and the same and thus wrote this section to reflect it? Anon thus believes that DonQuixote does not see a clear connection (according to Anon) between the War Chief and The Master in the two cited sources? Fordx12 ( talk) 21:59, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
OK, it's a long time since I read the Colony in Space novelisation, but if I take it correctly, Terance Dicks who both co-wrote the War Games and wrote the novelisations of that and Colony in Space, had a bit of fun and put a passage in the Colony in Space novelisation that implied that The Master was, in the past the War Chief. Now the problem is that while this passage is clear enough to be obvious to the likes of me, DQ etc, recognising that involves doing a little bit of interpretation and that interpretation is original research. It would be fine to put in that Terrance Dicks had in the novelisation linked the War Chief and the Master, if you have an independent source, DWM or one of the many proffessionally published guides to Doctor Who. Basically what is needed is for a third party in a referenceable source to have made the same observation our ip based friend has. Rankersbo ( talk) 09:37, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
Someone is deleting the relevant text, with references, claiming OR. However, it's all taken from actual WP:RS. What he/she doesn't like is what it implies. Note, I haven't said anything outright, only provided WP:RS relating to the War Chief.
As for Rankersbo's comment above, sorry but you don't take it correctly. Firstly, your suggestion that anyone "had a bit of fun" is pure OR. Secondly it was Malcolm Hulke who wrote both Colony in Space and The Doomsday Weapon, not Terance[sic] Dicks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.87.8.39 ( talk) 13:21, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
There is nothing different about this than most other articles on Wikipedia.
Oh wait, there is. This is properly sourced. The only problem you have with it is you don't like what is implied by these Reliable, Verifiable Sources. So you blank an entire section, while at the same time leaving a LOT of totally unsourced, and frankly inaccurate nonsense. It's also bizarre how much of this article List of Doctor Who villains is COMPLETELY unsourced. Yet you have no problem with any of these rambling unsourced sections. You hone in on the "War Chief" section, deleting the sourced material, but leaving the unsourced material! This is not for the good on Wikipedia or to maintain an encyclopedic nature. This is clearly your WP:POV out of control.
You want to delete the only sourced material, while leaving paragraphs of badly written, unsourced material? Fine. I give up. Not because you've proved your point valid, but because it's a waste of time arguing with the likes of you. You know you're wrong. You know what you are doing and what you are saying are two totally different things. And I don't have the time to waste on this garbage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.87.8.39 ( talk) 15:54, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Should Queen Elizabeth I be included as an enemy of the Doctor? She proclaimed in The Shakespeare Code that the Doctor was her "sworn enemy" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dannynewman ( talk • contribs) 22:52, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
At the request of User:MarnetteD, I would like make the case for AHistory as a reliable source. It is the culmination of research begun in the 1990s, that effort alone suggests reliability to me. Moreover, each fact is backed by reference to the episode and can be supported by other sources. Unauthorised is not a synonym for false. As two users, user:Bondegezou and user:Rankersbo have restored the source, that should suggest something about the lack of doubt surrounding its positive utility as a source. Also, in the acknowledgements (p. 22) it states that research help was given by Ben Aaronovitch, Andrew Cartmel, Sophie Aldred, Lawrence Miles, Paul Cornell (all of whom made enormous contributions to Doctor Who, TV or otherwise), Justin Richards and Gary Russell (these last two wrote a great many of the informative BBC books on the series (e.g. Doctor Who: The Encyclopedia (Russell) and Doctor Who:The Ultimate Monster Guide (Richards)), with contributors to the book having also done BBC-licensed projects on the series, surely it is reliable as a source?
So, MarnetteD, stop your pathetic edit war (I count three restorations of your edit and nothing on the discussion page by you to support it or find consensus), which I shall not report as I have made two ill-informed and inappropriate block-requests recently and would likely and justly not be taken seriously. I see future comments saying that I also reverted to my edit once and after three reversions by MarnetteD; is that not an edit war on my part? I think not as it was with a different source which I have no reason to suppose would be opposed by MarnetteD and the source was the only reason MarnetteD reverted, but I am extremely sorry if it was inappropriate. That last bit may be more suited to the user's talk page, sorry.
So, my fellow users "come gather, come gather" (Cassandra, The End of the World) and decide once and for all whether the source is appropriate. Let's have a consensus, please!
Thanks,
Gotha☭ Talk 20:23, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
Gotha☭ Talk 20:23, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
I still favour burning the whole thing! But, if it is to be kept, could some sort of notability criterion be introduced? Villains appearing in only one story, for example, do not need to be covered here: they are covered sufficiently under those stories. Bondegezou ( talk) 22:55, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
Given the above discussion I'm unsure why the mass deletion of multiple entries on this list by Bondegezou last year was necessary or beneficial to the list. 219.88.68.195 ( talk) 02:08, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
Someone should add a section on King Hydroflax from The Wives of River Song. Double Plus Ungood ( talk) 20:36, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
Formal request has been received to merge: Black Guardian into List of Doctor Who villains; dated: January 24, 2020. Proposer's rationale: I think that the content in the Black Guardian article can easily be explained in the context of the article about the villains in Doctor Who, and the article about villains in Doctor Who is of a reasonable size that the merging of The Black Guardian will not cause any problems as far as the size of the latter article is concerned. Pinging proposer @ Pahiy: discuss below. Richard3120 ( talk) 17:09, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
I think ‘O’ should be added because he was technically The Master but this may be disputed as he appeared to assist The Doctor until the final minutes of the episode. What do you think? DoctorWhoEditor2 ( talk) 22:36, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@ 197.86.143.140: Seriously, dude, you need to stop trying to advance your POV. Wikipedia is suppposed to be neutral in these matters, so we list every version of the characters. Also, you really need to understand the concept of citing sources. Primary sources (such as television dramas) can be used to describe their contents. To describe any connection between two or more primary sources, implied or otherwise, requires the citation of a secondary source (such as an article in a magazine). This is how tertiary sources like wikipedia operates. It's all about citing and summarising reliable sources. If a source doesn't say something explicitly, then wikipedia shouldn't be saying it explicitly either. DonQuixote ( talk) 19:12, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
^^ irony. yes, irony. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.140 ( talk) 19:32, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
The "nonsense" is what Virgin Books and Big Finish Audios served up.Being neutral means that we don't care to comment on whether it's
"nonsense"--we only care that they're published works. DonQuixote ( talk) 20:08, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
Explain this:
WAR CHIEF: You may have changed your appearance, but I know who you are. DOCTOR: Oh, do you? WAR CHIEF: Your machine is a Tardis. You’re too familiar with its controls to be a stranger. DOCTOR: I had every right to leave. WAR CHIEF: Stealing a Tardis? Oh, I’m not criticising you. We are two of a kind.
The War Chief took the Doctor into his private office just off the war room and told his bodyguards to leave. “Now, ” he said “a traveller in a space time machine. There is only one person you can be”.
The Master stroked his beard thoughtfully. Then, slowly, he shook his head. ‘I’m sorry, Doctor, it’s too much to ask.’ ‘But what use is your TARDIS to you while you’re in here?’ Jo asked: ‘It would be difficult for you to understand,’ said the Master, ‘but my TARDIS is my proudest possession.’ The Doctor laughed. ‘You don’t even own it! You stole it from the Time Lords!’ ‘As you stole yours!’ retorted the Master.
‘The first TARDIS was very small,’ he said. ‘On the outside, yes,’ said the old Keeper. ‘Inside it could carry up to three persons, four with a squeeze. Later we built much bigger ones. There have been two stolen, you know.’ The young Time Lord didn’t know. ‘By our enemies?’ he asked. ‘No. By Time Lords. They both became bored with this place. It was too peaceful for them, not enough happening.’ The old Keeper smiled to himself, as though remembering with some glee all the fuss when two TARDISes were stolen. ‘One of them nowadays calls himself “the Doctor”. The other says he is “the Master”.
In his various incarnations, the Doctor had found himself up against many terrifying enemies. With the exception of the Master, this was the first time he had found himself opposed by a fellow Time Lord. And in comparison to Omega, the Master shrank almost to a petty criminal.
On Temporal Nexus Point Earth in 1066 AD (Earth time), the Doctor encountered the Master disguised as the Meddling Monk. At that time, the Master was trying to alter Earth's history by ensuring Harold's victory over William the Conqueror at the Battle of Hastings.
Got that? The Doctor stole a TARDIS. The War Chief stole a TARDIS. The Master stole a TARDIS. When the War Chief encounters "a traveller in a space time machine" , he knows there's only one person it can possibly be. But there's more.., etc.
On Temporal Nexus Point Earth in 1066 AD (Earth time), the Doctor encountered the Master disguised as the Meddling Monk. At that time, the Master was trying to alter Earth's history by ensuring Harold's victory over William the Conqueror at the Battle of Hastings.
This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources(emphasis mine). Unless you can get a direct quote explictly stating what you want to cite them for, it's original research. DonQuixote ( talk) 10:43, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Also, I haven't made outrageous claims about the novels, so me not having read them is irrelevent. The only claims I've made are in line with WP:PRIMARY, etc. You can learn about them too by reading WP:PRIMARY, etc.
And, as I've said many times, wikipedia documents every version of the characters.
Please restate the specific question that you want answered.
IP editor, you're wrong. DonQuixote is right. Bondegezou ( talk) 13:12, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Seriously, @ 197.86.143.126:, of all the things in the main article you chose those two things?--you're the one trying to push your POV by giving undue weight to two obscure works. STOP IT ALREADY. If you're not even going to try to cite an interview or a behind-the-scenes magazine article or a behind-the-scenes book or some other behind-the-scene work of nonfiction, YOU'RE the one trying to push your unsourced POV. DonQuixote ( talk) 14:48, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Jack Frost ( talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.
I added relevant, reliably sourced, material to this article. DonQuixote blanked it. Then (s)he launched into personal attacks. I never added lengthy, rambling text. Merely a few succinct sentences, which were a) reliably sourced and b)help give additional information for those reading the article. DonQuixote blanked the reliably sourced information, because (s)he accused me of "pushing a pov". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.126 ( talk) 13:31, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
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I am responding to a third opinion request for this page. I have made no previous edits on List of Doctor Who villains and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes. |
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I have requested temporary semi-protection for this page at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection given inapproriate behaviour by an IP editor, e.g. [7]. Bondegezou ( talk) 12:33, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
OK what does the BBC say, not some bloke who wrote a book, a not a game, the BBC? Slatersteven ( talk) 13:07, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
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Disputes not withstanding, the indiscriminate use of fair use images in list articles such as this one is not supported. For the supporting policy, see WP:NFCC. For supporting guideline, see Wikipedia:NFC#Non-free_image_use_in_list_articles. See similar discussion at Talk:Supporting_Harry_Potter_characters#Overuse_of_fair_use_images and Talk:List_of_James_Bond_henchmen_in_Die_Another_Day#Fair_use_image_removal (and observe that fair use images remain removed or tightly limited on those two articles). -- Hammersoft ( talk) 17:48, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
In The Five Doctors, the Second Doctor mentions a female villain, I think it started with a 'V', to the Brigadier, then mentiones that he hasn't heard of her because the encounter hasn't happened yet.
Later, much later, the Sixth Doctor mentions this character as well.
I cannot remember the name, but I'm almost certain it starts with a 'V' and is referred to as a female. She may not have an appearance, but has been referred to as "a real villain" by the Sixth Doctor, and deserves a stub of mention here.
Can anyone recall who that was?
(For the record, it's my theory that it was her hand that picked up the Master's Ring at the end of Last of the Time Lords, just because it would be more amusing than it being The Rani like many other people have surmised.) 96.225.212.89 ( talk) 05:34, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
The image File:The Next Doctor.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
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[1] Could be of interest? Hrcolyer ( talk) 12:34, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
What are the criteria for inclusion in this list? The header describes it as "a list of villains from the long-running British science fiction television series Doctor Who".
Most of the entries are from the TV series, as per header, but there are several from novels (e.g. Eve), comics (e.g Pied Piper), and audio adventures (e.g. Sebastian Grayle, Headhunter).
My initial thought is that they don't belong in this list, given its description. 86.7.30.217 ( talk) 19:05, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Not meaning to nitpick, but the section on Sutekh is quite fundamentally wrong. Sutekh was imprisoned on Earth, not on Mars. [1] I haven't checked any of the other entries. Poglad ( talk) 11:00, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
It's been corrected. DonQuixote ( talk) 11:41, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
Viewing this page on mobile results in a giant black screen popping up spoiling the season finale. I can't find it in the edit code, so it must be some type of inject through secondary means. Can someone with more knowledge on Wikipedia fix this and maybe lock the pages? 173.62.183.163 ( talk) 05:29, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
It doesn’t any more. I edit from an iPhone SE, so I don’t know if that changes anything DoctorWhoEditor2 ( talk) 22:33, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Just like to point out that citing one source that says one thing, citing another source that says another thing and putting them together within the context of a single character, as is the case here, is synthesis. That is to say, quoting the War Games novelisation, which mentions the War Chief, and quoting the Colony in Space novelisation, which mentions the Master, and then juxtaposing them under the War Chief to lead the reader to the conclusion that they are the same character is original research. We need a reliable source to say that that's what's going on here in the novelisations. What we can do, however, is summarise each novelization in such a way as to retain what the texts imply without leading the reader to a conclusion, such as the summary of Tymewrm: Exodus. Also, there is excessive quoting of the source materials as if to prove through interpretation of the text (original research) that the connection should be emphasized (with the corresponding personal emphasis of key words and phrases).
Bottom line: the way that it's presented now is original research that favours one POV. (Note that the editor of the new material removed the bit about FASA mentioning that the Master and the War Chief were allies [2]...which, incidentally needed a cn tag.)
Also, see talk:Master (Doctor Who) for previous discussions. DonQuixote ( talk) 15:32, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
That's a, eh, creative way of interpreting things. The Colony in Space novelisation recaps what is The War Games. And leading directly into that is the two Time Lords talking about the Doctor and The Master and the younger one asking the older to tell him more about the Doctor and the Master. You only consider it synthesis, because you don't like what it says. It is also properly sourced, unlike more than 90% of this article. And certainly unlike the FASA piece, which was someone just stating something, without a WP:RS(for which see WP:BURDEN. And indeed, the only part of the Timewyrm:Exodus piece (the paragraph that that you seem to hold up as the shining example) that was sourced, was sourced by me. Yup, the rest has no WP:RS, has never had a RS, yet you regard that as being the thing to aim for. It is only the last sentence that was given a RS, and that was by me.
There is nothing that I added that was unsourced. In addition, every source explicitly mentions The War Chief and/or The War Games. What you don't like is that the source material also happens to make it clear what became of the War Chief after the War Games, and to remove that bit would destroy the source material. I have not made any pronouncements, I have merely provided relevant RS(which mention the War Chief and/or the War Games), removed unsourced statements(and haven't even scratched the surface of those unsourced statements). Yet this upsets you to the point that you felt the need to break the WP:3RR, and have now started this totally unnecessary discussion. 41.135.172.46 ( talk) 06:17, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
That was not a straw man. You are not even addressing the actual issues. The Timewyrm part was clearly the fact that you were happy to leave in a totally unsourced section, and even mentioned it as being how the whole article should be...while at the same time repeatedly removing(breaking the WP:3RR in the process) information that did indeed have valid WP:RS. You praise unsourced material, but start an edit war over sourced material. And again, you and you alone seem to feel that this some sort of WP:SYNTHESIS and/or WP:OR. However, every WP:RS explicitly refers to the War Chief and/or the War Games. The Colony in Space novelisation can be cited here as it specifically refers to the events of the War Games, and both gives background information on, as well as tells what happened to the Time Lord who had organised the War Games. Which is exactly what an article(well a few paragraphs in an article on the War Chief should do). And it is all properly sourced. Unlike the Timewyrm bit, where the only proper source was added by yours truly. So, it is not original research. And it is not synthesis. It is a set of WP:RS that both give background information on, as well telling the next move(s) of, the War Chief. I have not stated "the War Chief is the Master", because the sources I added do not say that in those exact words. They do however refer to the War Chief and the War Games, and give information on both. With proper RS. If someone wants to properly source the Legions Of Death, then please go ahead, and state exactly what it says there, word-for-word. And the Wikipedia reader can decide for him/herself, from whatever RS there are. And none of it is OR or SYNTHESIS. 41.135.42.99 ( talk) 06:55, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, I fail to see what you are even saying about the Timewyrm part now. As I have already stated:
You said that you think the Timewyrm part is the best post-War Games part of the section. However, up until very recently, the Timewyrm section was completely unsourced and was complete OR(as is 90% of the List of Doctor Who villains article as a whole!) The only sourced section of the Timewyrm paragraph was added by me, not you DonQuixote...me. Are you now taking credit for adding sources?....And then you complain and start an edit war over the only section in the entire article that has been meticulously sourced? That is what I find strange, and that is what I have now stated again.
Now, as far as "inference" or anything similar...that is what you claim. Again the sections are WP:RS that refer to the War Chief and the War Games, and give deeper biographical detail as to the character of the War Chief(you know the subject of the section). Everything that was added was entirely relevant, and was reliably sourced. Now, does it infer that the War Chief is the Master? Indeed it does, but that is neither OR nor SYNTHESIS. It is the RS that speaks of the War Chief. As you say, as the sources do not say "The War Chief is the Master", that has not been added to the article. Neither was the War Chief section merged into the Master (Doctor Who) article. However, what is clear is that these reliably sourced bits come from official, verifiable sources, and they are all absolutely relevant. I don't really see why this discussion even exists. As I stated, if someone finds a WP:RS that states something to the contrary, and it is properly sourced then it must be added to the article. However, your problem is with properly sourced material that is about the War Chief and the War Games. And it is neither OR nor SYNTHESIS. 41.135.42.99 ( talk) 16:57, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
No. I gave WP:RS that all refer to the War Chief and/or the War Games. This expands the biographical detail of the War Chief. The reason I used the sources I did, and not any others, is that these are the ones that do just that. End of story. Anything else is entirely your problem. 41.135.42.129 ( talk) 18:42, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
No. it is not OR. And it is not SYNTHESIS. All it is is a collection of RS, all of which specifically refer to the War Chief and/or the War Games, and add biographical detail about the War Chief. What you object to is the content of this biographical detail of the War Chief. Whatever you may claim, everything I added is a RS, everything I added specifically refers to the War Chief and/or the War Games, and everything I added gives additional biographical detail to the character of the War Chief. You are only claiming SYNTHESIS and OR because of what the Reliably Sourced information says about the War Chief. As I stated, if someone can properly source something like the Legions of Death FASA Game, then please go ahead immediately. I don't have a copy of the module, so i can not. And if someone does just that, I will most definitely not claim OR or SYNTHESIS, like you are doing with these reliably sourced pieces of information about the War Chief. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.116.93 ( talk) 07:08, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, but your argument is nonexistent. You said "synthesis", so that means it is "synthesis"? You need to explain how it is synthesis. Not merely say "I said synthesis". And, for the umpteenth time, all of those are WP:RS. They all mention The War Chief and/or The War Games. Therefore all they are are RS that add additional biographical detail to the War Chief. Please understand that if you claim something, you need to explain why that is relevant. Which you have failed to do. Let me say it for the millionth time....Everything I added was a WP:RS that directly references the War Chief and/or the War Games. That is not SYNTHESIS. That is not OR. The only one who has a problem is you, because you dislike what the RS actually state(and again 99% of this article is completely unsourced, yet you take no issue with any of that...). So, it is not SYNTHESIS, it RS that directly relates to the actual topic of the section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.229.135 ( talk) 06:47, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
Well, you need to work on your reading comprehension, as well as your manners. Let's say this for the millionth time... Every source I added explicitly mentions the War Chief and/or the War Games. And this is a section about the War Chief. Wow! Fancy that. That's not synthesis, that's just trying to improve the article. The only reason you are claiming synthesis, is because of the content of those WP:RS that explicitly mention the War Chief and/or the War Games. Did I at any point ever state or imply anything that is not directly mentioned in the sources? No. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.229.135 ( talk) 13:39, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
It mentions the War Games, and adds information on the Time Lord who organised the War Games. That's not SYNTHESIS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.229.135 ( talk) 16:08, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
Hang on. Didn't DonQuixote just state that all the sections here give an overview of the story they're in? But now those stories themselves don't count? Should this entire article(from A to Z) be deleted then? And how can the original themselves not be a [[WP:RS}]? because then we would have to remove most of the articles about audios, novels etc. as well as all the characters contained therein. And are you seriously bringing up the canonicity argument? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.133.46.222 ( talk) 05:34, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
You are yet to actually answer the questions I have posed to you. And your own arguments are self-contradictory.
1)There are virtually no sources whatsoever for the article at large(your "summaries" are unsourced. For that matter it is most unusual that you criticise text which is quoted verbatim from the sources, and praise "summaries". Surely the "summaries" are the OR, and the quoted text is properly sourced)?)
2)There is nothing whatsoever in the sources I provided that is in any way OR. I have placed text(all explicitly referring to the War Chief and/or the War Games) from WP:RS into a section on the War Chief. In fact, this is the only section in the entire article that actually meets the WP:RS standards. Your problem is what these Reliably Sourced make clear. I have not stated anything other than what is stated verbatim in the text, all with RS. Your proposed "solution" to this nonexistent "problem" is to use OR, and summarise it! There is no conflict of interest. All we have here are Reliable Sourced sections of text that are relevant to the section of the article. That is it. That is exactly what Malcolm Hulke and Terrance Dicks(the men who created the character of the War Chief) stated, word-for-word(except the Timewyrm:Exodus bit which still needs stronger sourcing). Yet you have some problem with that, and your solution is to use OR, and rewrite it, removing RS, and using OR to rephrase it to your personal tastes. Clearly, you have a problem with the one and only section on this article that is RS, simply because of what those RS actually state. Lastly, what do you mean by "[my] interpretation of the text"? That is the text, the text written by Malcolm Hulke and/or Terrance Dicks. I did not write it. The men who wrote the War Games did. They selected those words very carefully, being professional writers/authors, and Dicks was Script Editor for the television series, and Editor for the Target Books line. There is nothing whatsoever in those Reliably Sourced sections that is "mine". It is the words of the creators, who are indeed acknowledged experts in the field. And as you admit, you are not... 197.87.8.92 ( talk) 06:11, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Ignoring your attempt at humour that is a personal attack, you have been contradicting yourself over and over, and refusing to read what i have actually posted. Since you persist in trying to make this an endless loop, how about this....On this very discussion page, below this post of mine, post a draft what you believe the section should look like and we can take it from there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.87.8.92 ( talk) 18:35, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Now, what is so wrong with the Role Playing game that it had to be deleted from the section? It's exactly what it says in the sourcebook, does something need changing? If so, it can be changed. 86.31.131.239 ( talk) 19:22, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Nay, nay and thrice nay.
First to 86, you did not cite any references or sources. Unless you explicitly state the ISBN, page no, and quote it word-for-word, it counts as WP:OR. And as it stands now it is very much OR. In fatc I would be well within my rights to delete it immediately, but I'll give you the opportunity to correct it.
Next, the Colony in Space novelisation explicitly mentions the War Games. That is not or synthesis. Or if it is, then approximately 80% of Wikipedia articles relating to Doctor Who need to be seriously pruned or far worse cases of or and/or synthesis.
Lastly, the Target book has the War Chief(named as such) explicitly stating that the Doctor(as he is travelling in a time-space machine) can only be one person. I noticed that that never made it into your "acceptable" version.
Oh, there is more. By your "summarising" things, and completely rewording events, making assumptions, and giving your own interpretation, you are clearly using OR. Which is why what I included was cited word-for-word from the original sources, all of which were meticulously cited. Unlike your "summary" or the totally unsourced FASA section.
Which does rather beg the question as to why DonQuixote is so obsessed with this one section, while happily accepting the remainder of the article's lack of ANY sources. Or the HUGE amounts of what must totally be synthesis or OR according to his definitions, all over pretty much every Dr Who article... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.229.102 ( talk) 07:12, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I do not have anything against any relevant text being quoted, as long as it is cited properly. If the Legions of Death states that, and you have quoted and cited it properly, then you have done a great job. I was under the impression that Wikipedia is about providing all reliably sourced material relating to a subject, citing it properly, and at all times maintaining a neutral point of view. So, the quoted texts from the War Games(television serial and novelisation), Timewyrm:Exodus, the FASA Game and the Doomsday Weapon are all equal, provided they are all properly sourced(which they now are, except the Timewyrm one is still a bit OR). I was in two minds about Time's Champion, as it was already commissioned as a PDA, but ended being an unauthorised charity publication. Best not to include that one, probably.
However, DonQuixote(and a friend of his over on the Master(Doctor Who) article), clearly do not agree. For them, it is important to maintain their point of view. This leads to some rather self-contradictory statements. As an example, the FASA Game explicitly stating that the War Chief is not the Master is a valid source. However, the same FASA Game stating that the Monk IS the Master is NOT a valid source. DonQuxiote using OR to "summarise"(without a single WP:RS ) a story is a valid source. Me quoting something verbatim from the same story, with correct citations is both an invalid source AND OR. Oh, and SYNTHESIS! Doctor Who is an interesting thing, as different sources give conflicting takes on the same thing. I assumed it was Wikipedia policy to give fair weight to each(provided each is properly sourced, with correct citations, and what it actually says, not what someone "summarises" it as).... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.229.102 ( talk) 09:48, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
The Colony in Space novel explicitly refers to the War Games, and explicitly links a character called 'The Master' to that. No, it does not use the phrase "War Chief". However, it does specifically refer to the events of the War Games... Your earlier proposal removed multiple OR that do use the exact phrase "War Chief"...Lastly, the rest of this article contains virtually no RS. it is a bunch of people giving summaries of stories, characters etc., with no RS. And, of course summarising means using OR. perhaps the Doomsday Weapon piece may not be appropriate here, but it is certainly relevant to the The War Games article...I also feel that you have a bias, in that over at the Master article, one source stating that roger Delgado had played the Master was relevant, whereas another RS that stated that peter Butterworth had played the Master was dismissed out of hand. As I said, Wikipedia needs to maintain a NPOV. There is indeed much conflicting evidence, and it is wrong to state that "x is relevant", but that "y is synthesis". That is the very definition of POV and OR. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.229.102 ( talk) 16:15, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Could you please join the discussion that everyone else is having? It may help.
The Colony in Space novelisation specifically refers to the War Games. Therefore it's relevant to the War Chief. It's not synthesis or OR. If we were to take your extreme viewpoint, then about 90% of all Wikipedia articles would have to be removed as being synthesis and/or OR. It is unusual that this one small section in particular elicits such passion from you, yet none of the totally unsourced and rambling articles that I see you have made minor edits to.
The Master Module lists actors who have played the Master, and Butterworth is one of those(it should be noted now, in case yo 'discover' it later, that Brayshaw is not listed as one of them). As far as "no such character had been created yet". That is just YOUR POV and OR. Was Alex Kingston playing Mels in Silence in the Library? Well, according to you, no such character had been created yet! Please stop pushing your OR on this discussion.
As far as summarising, well you are NOT using the original text. You are rewriting it in a different manner, that hopefully gets the bullet points across. But by changing the original wording, you are most definitely using OR. As well as using OR to decide which points are important, and which are not. And, in your case, which are relevant and which are not. It's not rocket science. Especially since it explicitly states that the War Chief remarked that a)there is only one person the Doctor can be and b)the War Chief and the Doctor are two of a kind, yet BOTH of those statements escaped your proposed summary. Fancy that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.133.0.30 ( talk) 05:41, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Carefully weighed by who? You no doubt. You have been rude. You have made wild exaggerations. When asked for specifics, you can only beat your chest and make vague statements. And if you are indeed so passionate about adhering to the consensus and policies of Wikipedia, why do you seem to have such a one-purpose account?
Lastly, your bit about background information/production etc? You can not possibly be being serious, can you? You have "summarised" lengthy sections, used your OR and POV etc. But...how many of these Doctor Who villains entries have any background information about the production? But, according to your ever-changing policies, that would mean that this whole article should be deleted. Furthermore, it doesn't care how many people are engaged in those activities. ONE person who is reliable and has published a book outweighs a bunch of illiterate blogging nobodies.
So please, before you post another lengthy retort...please provide a single stable position. You have shifted your goals so many times, we're not even on the same field as when this discussion started. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.59.42 ( talk) 06:43, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
The record's stuck...the record's stuck...the record's stuck... (and is it really necessary to repeat what I said back to me ad nausea?)
Let's go through this nicely:
1)You, and you alone, object to the inclusion of RELIABLY SOURCED material, because it is somehow OR and/or SYNTHESIS(despite the fact it directly references the War Chief and/or the War Games in the sources)
2)We agree that sources should be what is cited and not someone's intepreation of what it actually says.
3)You have repeatedly stated that information must be "out-of-universe".
4)You then state that it is best to summarise the storylines in the article.
5)But you ALSO state we must not have ANY "in-universe" details.
6)You state that sources by people who have analysed and studied the relevant material is ideal.
7)But not apparently if it contradicts your POV.
Basically, the best argument against certain points you have made in this discussion can be found in other points you have made in this discussion. Again, you have posted lengthy, self-contradictory confused essays that fail to make clear exactly what you are saying. The only thing that has been made clear is that you personally wish for certain Reliably Sourced and properly cited additions that i made to the article to be removed, as you do not like what they imply.
As far as the FASA Game, who exactly made you the authority? It is YOUR OR that the character was later joined together from two separate characters. That is a RS. It is not your place to make definitive statements. Especially since in this entire discussion you are the only one who has yet to provide ANY RS for any of the multiple tangled points you have made. Your POV is NOT a RS. Published sources which I and 86 have provided ARE RS. And your personal wishes do not trump Wikipedia Policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.49.188 ( talk) 09:11, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
Clearly that is your POV. Your statement about Butterworth is a POV. if there is a RS that states Butterworth played the Master, then it counts, whether you believe it to be true or not. As for DonQuixote, again he has not "bent over backwards". All he has done is make a variety of hopelessly contradictory claims, assertions and stating his personal feelings. He has still completely failed to provide one valid, stable position. Every time he makes a statement I have been able to explain. He then changes the fundamentals of his argument in such a way that contradicts something he previously said. It is clear that this whole article as a whole(and indeed a great deal of Wikipedia Doctor Who-related articles) are in a great need of proper citations, cleaning up, and general fixing. However DonQuixote has fixated on my adding some RS, simply because of his personal feelings. Again, if a proper WP:RS states something, then see WP:V. As anyone who has followed Doctor Who for any period knows, there is contradictory information about certain aspects of the show, its production, characters, dating etc. It must most definitely not be Wikipedia's position to choose one, and state that something else can not be valid. As has been stated, I provided RS, 86 provided contradictory RS, someone else may provide a RS with a third totally different set of information. However, DonQuixote has provided nothing. All he has done is make assertions, and drag this discussion out long after his points were shown to be false. Again, see WP:V. And to MarnetteD, you have shown POV and OR with some of your statements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.49.189 ( talk) 06:46, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
Nope. You made bold statements, without any sources. You dismiss out of hand anything that may contradict your own POV. As an example, the WR:RS that 86 provided was blithely dismissed with some irrelevant analogy. Why? Your comment about "there is no way that...can be construed as being the same character..." is pure and unadulterated POV. You believe one point. You refuse to allow as WP:RS anything that even hints anything to the contrary. As I stated earlier, this is not a simple black-and-white issue. Like the infamous UNIT dating, there is conflicting evidence here, all of it equally WP:RS. It should, and indeed is, Wikipedia Policy to maintain a Neutral Point of View. However, you and DonQuixote both insist that Wikipedia maintain your point of view, and even dismiss official, licensed publications that 86 sourced, simply because it goes against your POV. And again, neither you or DonQuixote have provided a single source, reliable or otherwise, to back up your position. You claim about "Who is Doctor Who"? prove it. Cite it properly according to RS standards, otherwise it's simply an unsourced statement.
Lastly, and most importantly, where/when did I ever add "The War Chief is the Master" or "The War Chief is the Monk" or "The Monk is the Master" to this article? Nowhere, that's where. What I did do was provide properly cited WP:RS to an article about the War Chief. All of which specifically refer to the War Chief and/or the War Games. Also I am the only one to have added properly cited WP:RS to the Timewyrm:Exodus section of this article(which you don't have a problem with...) Had I stated something not in the sources, then it would of course be wrong. But I never did anything of the sort. Instead I merely added relevant, properly cited and sourced information, that is relevant to the subject matter. As did 86. And the information contains three scenarios, each contradictory with the other two. However, you and DonQuixote are objecting to one of the three, because you claim to definitively know information. And even while you staunchly maintain that the FASA Guide is not a WP:RS for one thing(Butteroworth played the Master), you are perfectly happy with what it says when it comes to something else(the War Chief and the Master were allies). Like DonQuixote, you please need to accept that a)you need to maintain a single stable position. and b)Your POV is not a WP:RS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.42.233 ( talk) 12:33, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
Fordx12 ( talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.
Okay, allow me to see if I got this right. DonQuixote believes that the War Cheif and The Master are being linked as the same person despite the sources not stating this to be true (According to DonQuixote) and that the IP editor (hence forth known as "anon") feels that the sources do show that the War Cheif and The Master are one and the same and thus wrote this section to reflect it? Anon thus believes that DonQuixote does not see a clear connection (according to Anon) between the War Chief and The Master in the two cited sources? Fordx12 ( talk) 21:59, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
OK, it's a long time since I read the Colony in Space novelisation, but if I take it correctly, Terance Dicks who both co-wrote the War Games and wrote the novelisations of that and Colony in Space, had a bit of fun and put a passage in the Colony in Space novelisation that implied that The Master was, in the past the War Chief. Now the problem is that while this passage is clear enough to be obvious to the likes of me, DQ etc, recognising that involves doing a little bit of interpretation and that interpretation is original research. It would be fine to put in that Terrance Dicks had in the novelisation linked the War Chief and the Master, if you have an independent source, DWM or one of the many proffessionally published guides to Doctor Who. Basically what is needed is for a third party in a referenceable source to have made the same observation our ip based friend has. Rankersbo ( talk) 09:37, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
Someone is deleting the relevant text, with references, claiming OR. However, it's all taken from actual WP:RS. What he/she doesn't like is what it implies. Note, I haven't said anything outright, only provided WP:RS relating to the War Chief.
As for Rankersbo's comment above, sorry but you don't take it correctly. Firstly, your suggestion that anyone "had a bit of fun" is pure OR. Secondly it was Malcolm Hulke who wrote both Colony in Space and The Doomsday Weapon, not Terance[sic] Dicks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.87.8.39 ( talk) 13:21, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
There is nothing different about this than most other articles on Wikipedia.
Oh wait, there is. This is properly sourced. The only problem you have with it is you don't like what is implied by these Reliable, Verifiable Sources. So you blank an entire section, while at the same time leaving a LOT of totally unsourced, and frankly inaccurate nonsense. It's also bizarre how much of this article List of Doctor Who villains is COMPLETELY unsourced. Yet you have no problem with any of these rambling unsourced sections. You hone in on the "War Chief" section, deleting the sourced material, but leaving the unsourced material! This is not for the good on Wikipedia or to maintain an encyclopedic nature. This is clearly your WP:POV out of control.
You want to delete the only sourced material, while leaving paragraphs of badly written, unsourced material? Fine. I give up. Not because you've proved your point valid, but because it's a waste of time arguing with the likes of you. You know you're wrong. You know what you are doing and what you are saying are two totally different things. And I don't have the time to waste on this garbage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.87.8.39 ( talk) 15:54, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Should Queen Elizabeth I be included as an enemy of the Doctor? She proclaimed in The Shakespeare Code that the Doctor was her "sworn enemy" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dannynewman ( talk • contribs) 22:52, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
At the request of User:MarnetteD, I would like make the case for AHistory as a reliable source. It is the culmination of research begun in the 1990s, that effort alone suggests reliability to me. Moreover, each fact is backed by reference to the episode and can be supported by other sources. Unauthorised is not a synonym for false. As two users, user:Bondegezou and user:Rankersbo have restored the source, that should suggest something about the lack of doubt surrounding its positive utility as a source. Also, in the acknowledgements (p. 22) it states that research help was given by Ben Aaronovitch, Andrew Cartmel, Sophie Aldred, Lawrence Miles, Paul Cornell (all of whom made enormous contributions to Doctor Who, TV or otherwise), Justin Richards and Gary Russell (these last two wrote a great many of the informative BBC books on the series (e.g. Doctor Who: The Encyclopedia (Russell) and Doctor Who:The Ultimate Monster Guide (Richards)), with contributors to the book having also done BBC-licensed projects on the series, surely it is reliable as a source?
So, MarnetteD, stop your pathetic edit war (I count three restorations of your edit and nothing on the discussion page by you to support it or find consensus), which I shall not report as I have made two ill-informed and inappropriate block-requests recently and would likely and justly not be taken seriously. I see future comments saying that I also reverted to my edit once and after three reversions by MarnetteD; is that not an edit war on my part? I think not as it was with a different source which I have no reason to suppose would be opposed by MarnetteD and the source was the only reason MarnetteD reverted, but I am extremely sorry if it was inappropriate. That last bit may be more suited to the user's talk page, sorry.
So, my fellow users "come gather, come gather" (Cassandra, The End of the World) and decide once and for all whether the source is appropriate. Let's have a consensus, please!
Thanks,
Gotha☭ Talk 20:23, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
Gotha☭ Talk 20:23, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
I still favour burning the whole thing! But, if it is to be kept, could some sort of notability criterion be introduced? Villains appearing in only one story, for example, do not need to be covered here: they are covered sufficiently under those stories. Bondegezou ( talk) 22:55, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
Given the above discussion I'm unsure why the mass deletion of multiple entries on this list by Bondegezou last year was necessary or beneficial to the list. 219.88.68.195 ( talk) 02:08, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
Someone should add a section on King Hydroflax from The Wives of River Song. Double Plus Ungood ( talk) 20:36, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
Formal request has been received to merge: Black Guardian into List of Doctor Who villains; dated: January 24, 2020. Proposer's rationale: I think that the content in the Black Guardian article can easily be explained in the context of the article about the villains in Doctor Who, and the article about villains in Doctor Who is of a reasonable size that the merging of The Black Guardian will not cause any problems as far as the size of the latter article is concerned. Pinging proposer @ Pahiy: discuss below. Richard3120 ( talk) 17:09, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
I think ‘O’ should be added because he was technically The Master but this may be disputed as he appeared to assist The Doctor until the final minutes of the episode. What do you think? DoctorWhoEditor2 ( talk) 22:36, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@ 197.86.143.140: Seriously, dude, you need to stop trying to advance your POV. Wikipedia is suppposed to be neutral in these matters, so we list every version of the characters. Also, you really need to understand the concept of citing sources. Primary sources (such as television dramas) can be used to describe their contents. To describe any connection between two or more primary sources, implied or otherwise, requires the citation of a secondary source (such as an article in a magazine). This is how tertiary sources like wikipedia operates. It's all about citing and summarising reliable sources. If a source doesn't say something explicitly, then wikipedia shouldn't be saying it explicitly either. DonQuixote ( talk) 19:12, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
^^ irony. yes, irony. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.140 ( talk) 19:32, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
The "nonsense" is what Virgin Books and Big Finish Audios served up.Being neutral means that we don't care to comment on whether it's
"nonsense"--we only care that they're published works. DonQuixote ( talk) 20:08, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
Explain this:
WAR CHIEF: You may have changed your appearance, but I know who you are. DOCTOR: Oh, do you? WAR CHIEF: Your machine is a Tardis. You’re too familiar with its controls to be a stranger. DOCTOR: I had every right to leave. WAR CHIEF: Stealing a Tardis? Oh, I’m not criticising you. We are two of a kind.
The War Chief took the Doctor into his private office just off the war room and told his bodyguards to leave. “Now, ” he said “a traveller in a space time machine. There is only one person you can be”.
The Master stroked his beard thoughtfully. Then, slowly, he shook his head. ‘I’m sorry, Doctor, it’s too much to ask.’ ‘But what use is your TARDIS to you while you’re in here?’ Jo asked: ‘It would be difficult for you to understand,’ said the Master, ‘but my TARDIS is my proudest possession.’ The Doctor laughed. ‘You don’t even own it! You stole it from the Time Lords!’ ‘As you stole yours!’ retorted the Master.
‘The first TARDIS was very small,’ he said. ‘On the outside, yes,’ said the old Keeper. ‘Inside it could carry up to three persons, four with a squeeze. Later we built much bigger ones. There have been two stolen, you know.’ The young Time Lord didn’t know. ‘By our enemies?’ he asked. ‘No. By Time Lords. They both became bored with this place. It was too peaceful for them, not enough happening.’ The old Keeper smiled to himself, as though remembering with some glee all the fuss when two TARDISes were stolen. ‘One of them nowadays calls himself “the Doctor”. The other says he is “the Master”.
In his various incarnations, the Doctor had found himself up against many terrifying enemies. With the exception of the Master, this was the first time he had found himself opposed by a fellow Time Lord. And in comparison to Omega, the Master shrank almost to a petty criminal.
On Temporal Nexus Point Earth in 1066 AD (Earth time), the Doctor encountered the Master disguised as the Meddling Monk. At that time, the Master was trying to alter Earth's history by ensuring Harold's victory over William the Conqueror at the Battle of Hastings.
Got that? The Doctor stole a TARDIS. The War Chief stole a TARDIS. The Master stole a TARDIS. When the War Chief encounters "a traveller in a space time machine" , he knows there's only one person it can possibly be. But there's more.., etc.
On Temporal Nexus Point Earth in 1066 AD (Earth time), the Doctor encountered the Master disguised as the Meddling Monk. At that time, the Master was trying to alter Earth's history by ensuring Harold's victory over William the Conqueror at the Battle of Hastings.
This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources(emphasis mine). Unless you can get a direct quote explictly stating what you want to cite them for, it's original research. DonQuixote ( talk) 10:43, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Also, I haven't made outrageous claims about the novels, so me not having read them is irrelevent. The only claims I've made are in line with WP:PRIMARY, etc. You can learn about them too by reading WP:PRIMARY, etc.
And, as I've said many times, wikipedia documents every version of the characters.
Please restate the specific question that you want answered.
IP editor, you're wrong. DonQuixote is right. Bondegezou ( talk) 13:12, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Seriously, @ 197.86.143.126:, of all the things in the main article you chose those two things?--you're the one trying to push your POV by giving undue weight to two obscure works. STOP IT ALREADY. If you're not even going to try to cite an interview or a behind-the-scenes magazine article or a behind-the-scenes book or some other behind-the-scene work of nonfiction, YOU'RE the one trying to push your unsourced POV. DonQuixote ( talk) 14:48, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Jack Frost ( talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.
I added relevant, reliably sourced, material to this article. DonQuixote blanked it. Then (s)he launched into personal attacks. I never added lengthy, rambling text. Merely a few succinct sentences, which were a) reliably sourced and b)help give additional information for those reading the article. DonQuixote blanked the reliably sourced information, because (s)he accused me of "pushing a pov". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.126 ( talk) 13:31, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
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I am responding to a third opinion request for this page. I have made no previous edits on List of Doctor Who villains and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes. |
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I have requested temporary semi-protection for this page at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection given inapproriate behaviour by an IP editor, e.g. [7]. Bondegezou ( talk) 12:33, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
OK what does the BBC say, not some bloke who wrote a book, a not a game, the BBC? Slatersteven ( talk) 13:07, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect
The Editor (Doctor Who). The discussion will occur at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 May 31#The Editor (Doctor Who) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.
Shhhnotsoloud (
talk) 16:43, 31 May 2021 (UTC)