Apocrypha Discordia was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 11 December 2008 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into List of Discordian works. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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Hey folks. Here's the facts:
So with these facts in mind let's work on improving this article and getting it in compliance with what wikipedia is all about. I have no doubt that Shii will hold off on a redirect for a resonable amount of time (read not forever) so we can get reliable sources. I'm not going to waste my time arguing about editors, I'm here to get this article in shape and policy complaiant. If anyone adds any unsourced material after this article is unprotected I will leave you one warning on your talk page. If it happens again I will refer the party to an outside admin for a block. We all now know what can and cannot be added to wikipedia and knowingly breaking the rules by adding inappropriate material you will be commiting vandalism. If and when unsourced material is added it will be removed, period. Let's all calm down and work together to find sources. Anyone and everyone can feel free to hit me up on my talk page at anytime. Also note that I have archived the previous discussions. If anyone feels that any of those discussions can be constructive and would like to continue them they can be moved from the archives back to this page without a problem. NeoFreak 16:32, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I don't care about the state of the page itself right now, although it would be nice to have it unprotected (the protection was requested on a false premise). What I do care about is sources. You can post them either here or on the AfD page. Shii (tock) formerly Ashibaka 23:34, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
This article was protected because of a dispute between one user, who is a sysop, and several other users. That protection is supposedly still continuing. Yet that one user is now allowed to edit the article and the others are not. Does anyone have an explanation for this? Just curious. Reverend Loveshade 06:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I do think that this page is worthwhile, but there is a lot of garbage here. I'm going to go through and remove some statements that are mostly speculation. DenisMoskowitz 18:51, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to Moreschi for adding some "citation needed" tags. I've cited some references that I had handy. Could someone who owns the Illuminet edition finish up the Summa Universalia citation? There are still a lot of citations needed, so let's dive in and cite what we can. DenisMoskowitz 12:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Shill formerly Ashibaka tried to delete this article twice. Both times the vote was keep. So he's just going to redirect it anyway?
And then he says we have to add sources. But on my user page he posted that if I add sources he doesn't think are good enough, he'll block me! Now NeoFreak said the same thing to anybody who edits this article! So they say we'll delete even if the vote is keep, and if you have to add sources, but we won't like any sources you add, and if you add sources we don't like we'll just block you? Why should we even try! We can't win anyway! I've made a few hundred edits and I've helped create some articles here. But now I'm like what's the point in even trying when they'll just destroy anything you do anyway and will block you from doing anything! Binky The WonderSkull 18:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Summary of my edits: I got "Five Blind Men and an Elephant" and "Author:Reverend Loveshade" deleted on Wikisource, and accordingly I removed the red links to those pages. I also removed the link to Cafepress because it was being used as a citation. Shii (tock) formerly Ashibaka 00:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Overwhelming silence here in response to NeoFreak's independent call for sources two weeks ago, on top of the two months I waited. Any objection to removing the unsourced sections at this point? By that I mean anything below "The Honest Book of Truth." Shii (tock) formerly Ashibaka 05:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought Jimbo said that you can remove any unsourced information on sight, and if it turns out to be true it can be added back later. Since when were we taking the opposite view? Shii (tock) formerly Ashibaka 16:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Excellent, so we have some agreement here. I am quite relieved to finally have a resolution. Now, let's decide what to do with these legitimately sourced Discordian works.
Please let me know what you think. Shii (tock) formerly Ashibaka 22:42, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Even if it is real, devoting a whole section to a book that is irrelevant to anything, was never published, and apparently never even finished is kind of overkill, isn't it? Shii (tock) formerly Ashibaka 04:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I highly doubt that it is at all important. It only gets mentioned as an aside in these little pages, right? We don't need to mention every single thing in the Principia. Shii (tock) formerly Ashibaka 16:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I kind of doubt it's all that important, but I guess we can keep it in. At least remove the speculation and reduce it to what we know about the Summa Universalia:
This, as a single sentence, could be included in the "Discordian works" section of the Principia Discordia article. Shii (tock) formerly Ashibaka 22:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, the main thing is that it only has two headings, both about excerpts from other books included in various editions of the Principia; so it would be more convenient to list these under the Principia article. At this point I wouldn't remove that much from the article, simply move what we do have. Shii (tock) formerly Ashibaka 23:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Shii formerly Ashibaka has burned some people out who got tired of him continually deleting their work. I'm one of them. He also scared people off with his threats of blocking them if they made edits he didn't like, a threat also made by NeoFreak. And he's insulted several people here. I don't know how he is allowed to stay here as an administrator, but apparently consideration for others and civility are not required to be a sysop. I think some have left Wikipedia because of his actions. As for his threats and insults, check this article's history and the discussions, and the postings on Reverend Loveshade. One of the threats to block is on Binky The WonderSkull. DenisMoskowitz, Binky The WonderSkull, myself and several others did a great deal of work on this article. But once again, Shii formerly Ashibaka has simply ripped it all out. How long can you fight someone who's little bit of power has gone to his head? IamthatIam 16:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Hello, everybody; I realize I'm not very well known in the community (read: I doubt anyone knows me), but I'd like to help with the improvement of the article. Discordianism deserves it, yes?
That said, I'd like to know if material copies of the mentioned works exist, and if so, where they're sold. I'd gladly pony up the cash required for the books. If not, the PC forums will prove invaluable to .pdf seekers--www.principiadiscordia.com, I believe, has the appropriate links.
Ragaxus 02:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
First thought: the article seems to include a work a fiction (Illuminatus! Trilogy), which is not a ho-er, what passes for what we could reasonably describe as a Holy Text, in Discordianism. Does this mean that something (presumably notable enough to warrant reference in a "list of article", which typically seems to be only slightly less than is required for its own article) that simply features strongly and blatantly Discordian themes throughout it counts as a Discordian Work? I'm just curious - oh, and I've never heard of Discordianism until a few days ago, so please correct me (gently) if I'm a little off on this.
Second thought: It seems odd to me that Principia Discordia, the MAIN text of the Discordian religion/philosophy/whatever you want to call it, warrants only a line in the introduction - even though it is arguably one of the few we can determine actually exists in physical form. I realize it has its own article, which would tend towards people figuring "eh, they'll just click the link if they want to know more", but I thought the whole point of these list articles was to summarize the important points on connected works, which may or may not have a full article with further details. All that is mentioned about the PD currently in this article is name and publication date, and what potentially fictional other work on the list it is supposed to include excerpts of. Basic, notable things such as number of known editions, author name, and even the language it was originally written in (which IMO, it would seem logical to include for a work that has a non-English sounding title but is written in English), are all completely absent.
Third thought: Another interesting and I think easy way to expand this is to include a small (very small) section that notes what makes these "Discordian" works in the first place. I don't mean to say you have to define the entire philosophy, but rather noting common themes and memes within them - for instance, the number five/Law of Fives apparently features a lot in both the verifiably real, and potentially mythical, texts, as does randomness and chaos (for an example of both: the part I've heard about in Illuminatus!, where it's wondered if the Law of Fives would still be the same if everyone had six fingers instead of five on each hand), ah, and of course the number 23. This probably sounds harder to cite than it is, given that many of the proper citations are already included in say, the Discordianism article. If nothing else, it would seem slightly less like a stub with something like that in it, whether as a subsection, or as part of the introduction. :) Runa27 20:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Discordian Works seem like a difficult thing to define (having been a Discordian for quite some time I find this seems true, even for myself). However, "The Illuminatus Trilogy!", does tend to be considered as much of a Discordian work as the Principia. When the Principia provides a baseline of ideas, the TIT! provides allegory and a story setting for those ideas. This might be compared to the difference between the Jewish Torah and other Jewish works like the books of the Prophets or Kings. One was their law, the others were about the society that lived by those laws. From a Discordian's perspective, they are much more likely that not to consider any writing about Discordia to be a Discordian Work. Dclydew 14:54, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
You can't just come back after a year and a bit and try to sneak back in the same unsourced content we agreed wasn't suitable last time around. Moreschi ( talk) ( debate) 22:31, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't see much content here beyond the main page on Discordianism. Looking at the AfDs above, I realize there's a devoted group of editors that want this article around, but the works that aren't already covered at Discordianism (some of which also have individual articles) don't seem to warrant a separate article. As it stands, this article is a partial WP:CFORK of existing articles, plus some contents that's not very notable. So I'm proposing to merge this with Discordianism. Pcap ping 20:12, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Brenton Clutterbuck has published an article about what he sees as the problems with this wikipedia page. I would like to clarify why I feel this is an acceptable source for this page.
On the one hand, it seems sort of cheating to write a post about how a wikipedia page should change, publish it outside of wikipedia, and then not have it count as original research. But I think it's acceptable because:
In short, this post is pretty much the best source we can imagine on notability of these works right now.
I have searched for wikipedia policies forbidding this from happening, and I found none. So I'm going to use it as a source. El sjaako ( talk) 21:47, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
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This article has Early Works and Later Works which are Discordian. What it does not have, however, is a section on works about Discordianism. This could include The Prankster and the Conspiracy (which is about Kerry Thornley, co-creator of Discordianism), and the recent Chasing Eris (in which the author travels the world talking to Discordians). If no one gives a reason why this section should be created, I'd like to do so. Alden Loveshade ( talk) 21:59, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
Apocrypha Discordia was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 11 December 2008 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into List of Discordian works. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
This article was nominated for
deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
|
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
|
|
|
Hey folks. Here's the facts:
So with these facts in mind let's work on improving this article and getting it in compliance with what wikipedia is all about. I have no doubt that Shii will hold off on a redirect for a resonable amount of time (read not forever) so we can get reliable sources. I'm not going to waste my time arguing about editors, I'm here to get this article in shape and policy complaiant. If anyone adds any unsourced material after this article is unprotected I will leave you one warning on your talk page. If it happens again I will refer the party to an outside admin for a block. We all now know what can and cannot be added to wikipedia and knowingly breaking the rules by adding inappropriate material you will be commiting vandalism. If and when unsourced material is added it will be removed, period. Let's all calm down and work together to find sources. Anyone and everyone can feel free to hit me up on my talk page at anytime. Also note that I have archived the previous discussions. If anyone feels that any of those discussions can be constructive and would like to continue them they can be moved from the archives back to this page without a problem. NeoFreak 16:32, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I don't care about the state of the page itself right now, although it would be nice to have it unprotected (the protection was requested on a false premise). What I do care about is sources. You can post them either here or on the AfD page. Shii (tock) formerly Ashibaka 23:34, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
This article was protected because of a dispute between one user, who is a sysop, and several other users. That protection is supposedly still continuing. Yet that one user is now allowed to edit the article and the others are not. Does anyone have an explanation for this? Just curious. Reverend Loveshade 06:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I do think that this page is worthwhile, but there is a lot of garbage here. I'm going to go through and remove some statements that are mostly speculation. DenisMoskowitz 18:51, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to Moreschi for adding some "citation needed" tags. I've cited some references that I had handy. Could someone who owns the Illuminet edition finish up the Summa Universalia citation? There are still a lot of citations needed, so let's dive in and cite what we can. DenisMoskowitz 12:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Shill formerly Ashibaka tried to delete this article twice. Both times the vote was keep. So he's just going to redirect it anyway?
And then he says we have to add sources. But on my user page he posted that if I add sources he doesn't think are good enough, he'll block me! Now NeoFreak said the same thing to anybody who edits this article! So they say we'll delete even if the vote is keep, and if you have to add sources, but we won't like any sources you add, and if you add sources we don't like we'll just block you? Why should we even try! We can't win anyway! I've made a few hundred edits and I've helped create some articles here. But now I'm like what's the point in even trying when they'll just destroy anything you do anyway and will block you from doing anything! Binky The WonderSkull 18:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Summary of my edits: I got "Five Blind Men and an Elephant" and "Author:Reverend Loveshade" deleted on Wikisource, and accordingly I removed the red links to those pages. I also removed the link to Cafepress because it was being used as a citation. Shii (tock) formerly Ashibaka 00:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Overwhelming silence here in response to NeoFreak's independent call for sources two weeks ago, on top of the two months I waited. Any objection to removing the unsourced sections at this point? By that I mean anything below "The Honest Book of Truth." Shii (tock) formerly Ashibaka 05:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought Jimbo said that you can remove any unsourced information on sight, and if it turns out to be true it can be added back later. Since when were we taking the opposite view? Shii (tock) formerly Ashibaka 16:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Excellent, so we have some agreement here. I am quite relieved to finally have a resolution. Now, let's decide what to do with these legitimately sourced Discordian works.
Please let me know what you think. Shii (tock) formerly Ashibaka 22:42, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Even if it is real, devoting a whole section to a book that is irrelevant to anything, was never published, and apparently never even finished is kind of overkill, isn't it? Shii (tock) formerly Ashibaka 04:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I highly doubt that it is at all important. It only gets mentioned as an aside in these little pages, right? We don't need to mention every single thing in the Principia. Shii (tock) formerly Ashibaka 16:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I kind of doubt it's all that important, but I guess we can keep it in. At least remove the speculation and reduce it to what we know about the Summa Universalia:
This, as a single sentence, could be included in the "Discordian works" section of the Principia Discordia article. Shii (tock) formerly Ashibaka 22:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, the main thing is that it only has two headings, both about excerpts from other books included in various editions of the Principia; so it would be more convenient to list these under the Principia article. At this point I wouldn't remove that much from the article, simply move what we do have. Shii (tock) formerly Ashibaka 23:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Shii formerly Ashibaka has burned some people out who got tired of him continually deleting their work. I'm one of them. He also scared people off with his threats of blocking them if they made edits he didn't like, a threat also made by NeoFreak. And he's insulted several people here. I don't know how he is allowed to stay here as an administrator, but apparently consideration for others and civility are not required to be a sysop. I think some have left Wikipedia because of his actions. As for his threats and insults, check this article's history and the discussions, and the postings on Reverend Loveshade. One of the threats to block is on Binky The WonderSkull. DenisMoskowitz, Binky The WonderSkull, myself and several others did a great deal of work on this article. But once again, Shii formerly Ashibaka has simply ripped it all out. How long can you fight someone who's little bit of power has gone to his head? IamthatIam 16:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Hello, everybody; I realize I'm not very well known in the community (read: I doubt anyone knows me), but I'd like to help with the improvement of the article. Discordianism deserves it, yes?
That said, I'd like to know if material copies of the mentioned works exist, and if so, where they're sold. I'd gladly pony up the cash required for the books. If not, the PC forums will prove invaluable to .pdf seekers--www.principiadiscordia.com, I believe, has the appropriate links.
Ragaxus 02:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
First thought: the article seems to include a work a fiction (Illuminatus! Trilogy), which is not a ho-er, what passes for what we could reasonably describe as a Holy Text, in Discordianism. Does this mean that something (presumably notable enough to warrant reference in a "list of article", which typically seems to be only slightly less than is required for its own article) that simply features strongly and blatantly Discordian themes throughout it counts as a Discordian Work? I'm just curious - oh, and I've never heard of Discordianism until a few days ago, so please correct me (gently) if I'm a little off on this.
Second thought: It seems odd to me that Principia Discordia, the MAIN text of the Discordian religion/philosophy/whatever you want to call it, warrants only a line in the introduction - even though it is arguably one of the few we can determine actually exists in physical form. I realize it has its own article, which would tend towards people figuring "eh, they'll just click the link if they want to know more", but I thought the whole point of these list articles was to summarize the important points on connected works, which may or may not have a full article with further details. All that is mentioned about the PD currently in this article is name and publication date, and what potentially fictional other work on the list it is supposed to include excerpts of. Basic, notable things such as number of known editions, author name, and even the language it was originally written in (which IMO, it would seem logical to include for a work that has a non-English sounding title but is written in English), are all completely absent.
Third thought: Another interesting and I think easy way to expand this is to include a small (very small) section that notes what makes these "Discordian" works in the first place. I don't mean to say you have to define the entire philosophy, but rather noting common themes and memes within them - for instance, the number five/Law of Fives apparently features a lot in both the verifiably real, and potentially mythical, texts, as does randomness and chaos (for an example of both: the part I've heard about in Illuminatus!, where it's wondered if the Law of Fives would still be the same if everyone had six fingers instead of five on each hand), ah, and of course the number 23. This probably sounds harder to cite than it is, given that many of the proper citations are already included in say, the Discordianism article. If nothing else, it would seem slightly less like a stub with something like that in it, whether as a subsection, or as part of the introduction. :) Runa27 20:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Discordian Works seem like a difficult thing to define (having been a Discordian for quite some time I find this seems true, even for myself). However, "The Illuminatus Trilogy!", does tend to be considered as much of a Discordian work as the Principia. When the Principia provides a baseline of ideas, the TIT! provides allegory and a story setting for those ideas. This might be compared to the difference between the Jewish Torah and other Jewish works like the books of the Prophets or Kings. One was their law, the others were about the society that lived by those laws. From a Discordian's perspective, they are much more likely that not to consider any writing about Discordia to be a Discordian Work. Dclydew 14:54, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
You can't just come back after a year and a bit and try to sneak back in the same unsourced content we agreed wasn't suitable last time around. Moreschi ( talk) ( debate) 22:31, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't see much content here beyond the main page on Discordianism. Looking at the AfDs above, I realize there's a devoted group of editors that want this article around, but the works that aren't already covered at Discordianism (some of which also have individual articles) don't seem to warrant a separate article. As it stands, this article is a partial WP:CFORK of existing articles, plus some contents that's not very notable. So I'm proposing to merge this with Discordianism. Pcap ping 20:12, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Brenton Clutterbuck has published an article about what he sees as the problems with this wikipedia page. I would like to clarify why I feel this is an acceptable source for this page.
On the one hand, it seems sort of cheating to write a post about how a wikipedia page should change, publish it outside of wikipedia, and then not have it count as original research. But I think it's acceptable because:
In short, this post is pretty much the best source we can imagine on notability of these works right now.
I have searched for wikipedia policies forbidding this from happening, and I found none. So I'm going to use it as a source. El sjaako ( talk) 21:47, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on List of Discordian works. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This article has Early Works and Later Works which are Discordian. What it does not have, however, is a section on works about Discordianism. This could include The Prankster and the Conspiracy (which is about Kerry Thornley, co-creator of Discordianism), and the recent Chasing Eris (in which the author travels the world talking to Discordians). If no one gives a reason why this section should be created, I'd like to do so. Alden Loveshade ( talk) 21:59, 25 October 2018 (UTC)