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This reference used to claim that Franklin was a Deist is taken out of context. Mr. Franklin refers to himself in the very autobiography cited above as "scarce fifteen" when he reads several book that convince him he is a deist convert. At this young age he speaks of the doubts he has about religion/"Revelation". But in the next paragraph he speaks of this doubting in the past tense: "Revelation had indeed no weight with me, as such;". He even speaks of this time of doubt as "this dangerous time of youth" which he is only able to survive due to "the kind hand of Providence, or some guardian angel, or accidental favorable circumstances and situations, or all together". Obviously Franklin believes in a Deity that is active in the affairs of men after surviving his youthful dalliance with Deism. He says so directly on June 28, 1787 when addressing the Constitutional Convention: "I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that "except the Lord build the House they labour in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest. I therefore beg leave to move-that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that Service." [14] Since "Deism holds that God does not intervene with the functioning of the natural world in any way, allowing it to run according to the laws of nature." , and Franklin States at the first Constitutional Convention that he believes, as cited previously, that "God governs in the affairs of men", it is obvious that Franklin was NOT a Deist and should be removed from this list. AirborneLt ( talk) 07:23, 13 July 2013 (UTC)Airborne1Lt
Why is Hume here, when he is also in List of atheists? Hume was not actually an atheist. Many have made this mistake.
Why on earth was Bishop Berkeley on this list (I've removed him)? Berkeley was a Catholic clergyman, and fiercely opposed to deism, as it says in the George Berkeley article. Chick Bowen 02:14, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I've been able to find and verify the 8 men I removed as theists and not deists. The quotes on jcsm.org/AmericasFounders/ indicate how these men believed in a personal God (some even, clearly the biblical God), so this precludes the god of deism. On the link above, you can click on each man's name to see this evidence. -- Jason Gastrich 00:01, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
So that I will not be counted a visitor to your user-unfriendly website so you can get paid for it by your sponsors, I request that you copy each quote here that you wish to discuss. I will start by copying the Lincoln quotes, but request you do the rest - but please, only the ones that stand a chance - not like most of the ones I've seen so far -- JimWae 04:53, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
"That I am not a member of any Christian Church, is true; but I have never denied the truth of the Scriptures; and I have never spoken with intentional disrespect of religion in general, or of any denomination of Christians in particular . . . I do not think I could, myself, be brought to support a man for office whom I knew to be an open enemy of, and scoffer at religion." - "The Illinois Gazette," August 15, 1846.
"I sincerely hope father may recover his health; but at all events tell him to remember to call upon and confide in our great and good and merciful maker, who will not turn away from him in any extremity. He notes the fall of a sparrow and numbers the hairs of our head, and He will not forget the dying man who puts his trust in Him." - from a letter to his step-brother, in 1851, concerning the illness of their father.
"The will of God prevails. In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God . . . one must be wrong. God can not be for and against the same thing at the same time." - "Meditation on the Divine Will," 1862.
Jason, how do the following three quotes fit into your idea that AL was not a deist?
John T. Stuart, Lincoln's first law partner on Lincoln:
Joseph Lewis quoting Lincoln in a 1924 speech in New York:
Lincoln in a letter to Judge J.S. Wakefield, after the death of Willie Lincoln:
David D. (Talk) 08:10, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Why are people trying to remove Washington from the list? Lincoln, as discussed above, would never write directly about his deism (being involved with the Christian church was a political necessity) do you think Washington would have made that mistake? What is the level of proof that you both ( User:Jason Gastrich and User:JJstroker) need to see for his deism? It is clear he is was not a Christian, but he believed in a god, that's a good start. The vast majority of historians agree that he was a deist. May be you both believe he was a Christian, is that why you want him off the list? Do you also believe he chopped down a cherry tree? David D. (Talk) 17:50, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
The citation here used to support the notion that Washington was a Deist, never even mentions Washington. It is an article on James Monroe. In fact, there is nothing here given to support the conclusion that Washington was a deist.
Because a bunch of liberal academics who hate all dead white males say so, is not a reliable, verifiable argument.
If one looks at many of his quotes and proclamations, one instantly sees that he firmly believes in God taking part in our governance. "Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and—Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me “to recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:” [1]
Deism is defined, here on Wikipedia as well, as "Deism holds that God does not intervene with the functioning of the natural world in any way, allowing it to run according to the laws of nature." By that definition anyone that believes in a Creator that actively guides us would not be a Deist. It's that simple. If you look at President Washington's Thanksgiving proclamation you will clearly see that he certainly believes that God actively participates in the affairs of men. It is not that complicated. Please remove him from this list.
AirborneLt (
talk)
07:21, 13 July 2013 (UTC) Airborne1Lt
References
If this is all of your evidence that Lincoln was a deist, I move to remove him from the list. The burden of proof is severely lacking. Furthermore, I also move to remove any others that have not been supported with proof. We cannot assume that the other 7 are deists without proof, so they should not be listed in this entry, either. -- Jason Gastrich 20:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
What is the proof that users such as User:Jason Gastrich and User:JJstroker require to attribute deism to an historical figure? If the burdon of proof is so high why are they happy to leave all the other so called deists on this list but feel that the founding fathers need to be removed? David D. (Talk) 23:10, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Just refference a historian... though his minister saying he was a deist is pretty convincing....
Sethie
07:03, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Sourcing the list should resolve things. Durova 03:39, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
The source cited for Washington is actually about James Monroe. Washington is never even mentioned. Simply ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AirborneLt ( talk • contribs) 07:33, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
I started this section to discuss the criteria we should use to conclude that a person is a deist. At the very least, we should find firsthand quotes from the people in question that are consistent with a belief in deism. If we find quotes that are contrary to the deistic belief system, then that person should not be called a deist. Should we consider anything else?-- Jason Gastrich 04:10, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Actually this line of reasoning flirts with the NOR rule. In most cases it's better to cite some historian. Durova 17:28, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
25 of the names are now sourced. I've removed the cleanup tag. BTW someone with a conservative Christian agenda has been using this page on another site for a critique. Regards, Durova 04:07, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
From the Encarta Dictionary: "a belief in God based on reason rather than revelation and involving the view that God has set the universe in motion but does not interfere with how it runs."
A quote from his Second Inaugural Address in March of 1865: "Both [North and South] read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes." When a Northern minister said to the president that he "hoped the Lord is on our side." Responded Lincoln, "I am not at all concerned about that. . . . But it is my constant anxiety and prayer that I and this nation should be on the Lord's side."
As with this quote and the one posted earlier concerning prayer. You only pray when you believe in miracles. It makes absolutely no sense for someone to pray for someone who is sick if they won't believe that God would intervene in some way. In the definition above it states that God does not interfere with how it runs. It is quite obvious here that he believes that God would interfere with how the world runs, just in the one given point that he prayed. In the quote I gave above Lincoln also stated that God could not answer both prayers of the South and the North because they were opposing prayers. He also states that the "Almighty has his own purposes". He believed that the Lord had his own purposes on how he would answer the prayers concerning the war and slavery. So if he had a purpose, then he is more involved than in just setting the universe in motion. He also is anxious and prays that Lincoln and the North be on the Lord's side. Why should Lincoln care if he is on the Lord's side or not, if he didn't believe in some type of judgement, which in the definition does not apply. Speaking of judgement, he also quotes here the scripture concerning, "that we be not judged". Judgement comes in many forms as Lincoln certainly believes since he is concerned by his "constant anxiety and prayer". Just another point, Lincoln was a continual reader of the Bible, and anyone who believes that he can take comfort and guidance from it must have some type of belief in it and the miracles and prophecies that it contains.
Whether or not we can pinpoint as to what his faith was as far as denomination does not make him a deist, neither does the fact that he discontinued his visits to the Baptist Church. There have been many people in history that have been disillusioned by different denominations that they have visited, but could never find one that they thought lined up with the teachings of the Bible. These people could certainly not fit into this category. I myself was in this position for many, many years and I never fit into being a deist.
History is riddled with those who abused the religious positions that they held. Many people have been disconcerted and discouraged with those that taught contrary to the Bible, but yet claimed to be its minister. Those that can find no church teaching what they read about in the New Testament, and have quit going to church entirely are convicted about not going to any Church unless they find the one they believe teaches what they believe to be the truth concerning the Bible. There are many thousands of these people out there now! This does not make them deists.
By the way, I myself have no concervative agenda. I do not partake in political arguments. I just ran across this by accident and I believe that it is inacurate to say the least to list Abraham Lincoln here. There are others on this list that I do not think belong here either, but I don't have the time to dispute them, though I do have the needed information. I really think that you should look at this with an open mind and seriously consider my arguments.
Thank you.
Oh, by the way here are some more quotes:
A President Lincoln on his knees praying to God asking for victory at Gettysburg. God took the whole business into his own hands. A man comforted by his God by his knowing that he has taken control. Now this is someone that believes that God is interfering by "taking control". No this man was not a deist.
July 5, 1863 to General Dan Sickles:
"Well, I will tell you how it was. In the pinch of the campaign up there (at Gettysburg) when everybody seemed panic stricken and nobody could tell what was going to happen, oppressed by the gravity of our affairs, I went to my room one day and locked the door and got down on my knees before Almighty God and prayed to Him mightily for victory at Gettysburg. I told Him that this war was His war, and our cause His cause, but we could not stand another Fredericksburg or Chancellorsville... And after that, I don't know how it was, and I cannot explain it, but soon a sweet comfort crept into my soul. The feeling came that God had taken the whole business into His own hands and that things would go right at Gettysburg and that is why I had no fears about you."
March 30, 1863 One of Lincoln's proclomations for a national day of prayer and fasting:
"It is the duty of nations as well as of men to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, and to confess their sins and transgressions in humble sorrow, yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon, and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in Holy Scripture, and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord. And, insomuch (sic) as we know that by His divine law nations, like individuals, are subjected to punishments and chastisement in this world, may we not justly fear that the awful calamity of civil war which now desolates the land may be but a punishment inflicted upon us for our presumptuous sins, to the needful end of our national reformation as a whole people? We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of Heaven; we have been preserved these many years in peace and prosperity; we have grown in numbers, wealth and power as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which has preserved us in peace and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us, and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us. It behooves us, then, to humble ourselves before the offended power, to confess our national sins and to pray for clemency and forgiveness."
Here is a quote supporting my argument that he was not satisfied with a church, because he could not find one that taught the Bible accurately:
"When any church will inscribe over its altar, as its sole qualification for membership, the Savior's condensed statement of the substance of both law and Gospel, 'Thou shalt love the lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul and thy neighbor as thyself' that church will I join with all my heart and all my soul."
The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, ed. Roy P. Basler, (New Brunswick, N.J.: Rutgers University Press, 1953-55), 1:382.
July 31, 1846 Though this statement has been quoted above, the statement is made here that he has never denied the truth of the Scriptures. If he then believed them, then he believed the prophecies and the miracles printed therein:
"That I am not a member of any Christian church is true; but I have never denied the truth of the Scriptures; and I have never spoken with intentional disrespect of religion in general, or of any denomination of Christians in particular....I do not think I could myself be brought to support a man for office whom I knew to be an open enemy of, or scoffer at, religion."
There is much more than I have quoted. What else would anyone need to prove he was not a deist?
Thanks again for your consideration.
I removed Stephen Hawking from the list. Dr. Hawking's works and other statements evince no tendency or sympathy towards deism; the link used to justify his inclusion in this list justifies his status as an agnostic, not a deist.
Why is Jefferson as deist disputed? Coleca 21:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson -- He was AGNOSTIC —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
98.234.120.60 (
talk)
07:44, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Why not combine this article with Deism page
Was Einstein a deist? No. Einstein has never said that he was a deist. Many writers have identified Einstein as a pantheist. The deist God is some kind of cosmic intelligence. And, Einstein has never clearly said that he believed in such God. Thus, it would be wrong to call Einstein a deist. RS
This is correct. "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings." -Albert Einstein -- Spinoza, and thus Einstein, was a Pantheist
"I'm not an atheist, and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations." - Einstein it seems could be described as a form of a deist, he seems to reject atheism, theism and pantheism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.235.127.54 ( talk) 10:17, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
List looks kinda crappy without images, and seeing as most of the people listed are long dead, it should be easy. I just can't be arsed at the moment. Use the format in List of atheists (film, radio, television and theatre) -- Closedmouth ( talk) 13:46, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
It seems it is in alphabetical order by first name, but then not ALL of them are. Zeek Aran ( talk) 23:03, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
I've noticed that quite a lot of people categorize Charles Darwin as leaning (or, indeed, fluctuating) towards deism, though he never actually used the word himself. Between 1851 (the year his daughter Annie died) and 1879 (when he said an Agnostic would be the correct description of his state of mind) he no longer believed in the Christian God or in any revelation, but he accepted some kind of a cosmic intelligece as the First Cause and the designer of the laws of nature (nowadays known as the "fine-tuning" argument), which left the individual events indeterministic. Doesn't this actually fit into most definitions of deism?
Is there any source in English proving that Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was a deist? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.196.253.26 ( talk) 15:01, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
I don't believe there is even a Turkish source proving that Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was a deist. The source given in the page is the website of a group, and within that web site there is no text claiming that Atatürk was a deist. Gökdeniz Karadağ ( talk) 13:10, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Oh, the video got deleted. Why do old videos tend to get deleted so much? Sad. 178.120.68.149 ( talk) 00:11, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
Lessing denied he was a Diest. See: [1]. Tstrobaugh ( talk) 17:41, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
There is some sentences that we can say it is possible that to say Atatürk was a deist. At the national assembly opening in 1937 He said
'We do not consider our principles as dogmas contained in books that are said to come from heaven. We derive our inspiration, not from heaven, or from an unseen world, but directly from life.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mediterranean33 ( talk • contribs) 02:00, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist"
I suggest people read the book: Einstein : His Life and Universe. Where it supports that he was a deist (although not the same way the founding fathers were)
I find that pretty ironic on a page about people dedicated to rationality. Obviously, alphabetizing by last name would be much more useful for reference purposes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rsquire3 ( talk • contribs) 05:17, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
The recently created account Patriotsprice ( talk · contribs) changed the entry for Jefferson to read:
72.244.204.123 ( talk) 21:33, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I know Lincoln never called himself a Deist and that the greek philosopher predates the term.
There for neither should be on this list. 107.199.68.228 ( talk) 04:43, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
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Victor Hugo and Mark Twain use this source, but the source states that it was copied from this Wikipedia page. Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 18:44, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
I suggest adding Elihu Palmer.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elihu_Palmer
-Caleb 184.153.244.70 ( talk) 20:09, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
If no one objects I am going to make this list chronological. Since Deism had one period of relevance and is rather obscure outside of that, readers might be interested to know how many and what kind of followers it had in different time periods. Right now it is a mess but alphabetization (like it used to be) is only helpful if someone wants to know if a specific person was Deist, which can be done with ctrl-f, on their article, or elsewhere. mossypiglet ( talk) Go blue! 18:58, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
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This reference used to claim that Franklin was a Deist is taken out of context. Mr. Franklin refers to himself in the very autobiography cited above as "scarce fifteen" when he reads several book that convince him he is a deist convert. At this young age he speaks of the doubts he has about religion/"Revelation". But in the next paragraph he speaks of this doubting in the past tense: "Revelation had indeed no weight with me, as such;". He even speaks of this time of doubt as "this dangerous time of youth" which he is only able to survive due to "the kind hand of Providence, or some guardian angel, or accidental favorable circumstances and situations, or all together". Obviously Franklin believes in a Deity that is active in the affairs of men after surviving his youthful dalliance with Deism. He says so directly on June 28, 1787 when addressing the Constitutional Convention: "I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that "except the Lord build the House they labour in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest. I therefore beg leave to move-that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that Service." [14] Since "Deism holds that God does not intervene with the functioning of the natural world in any way, allowing it to run according to the laws of nature." , and Franklin States at the first Constitutional Convention that he believes, as cited previously, that "God governs in the affairs of men", it is obvious that Franklin was NOT a Deist and should be removed from this list. AirborneLt ( talk) 07:23, 13 July 2013 (UTC)Airborne1Lt
Why is Hume here, when he is also in List of atheists? Hume was not actually an atheist. Many have made this mistake.
Why on earth was Bishop Berkeley on this list (I've removed him)? Berkeley was a Catholic clergyman, and fiercely opposed to deism, as it says in the George Berkeley article. Chick Bowen 02:14, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I've been able to find and verify the 8 men I removed as theists and not deists. The quotes on jcsm.org/AmericasFounders/ indicate how these men believed in a personal God (some even, clearly the biblical God), so this precludes the god of deism. On the link above, you can click on each man's name to see this evidence. -- Jason Gastrich 00:01, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
So that I will not be counted a visitor to your user-unfriendly website so you can get paid for it by your sponsors, I request that you copy each quote here that you wish to discuss. I will start by copying the Lincoln quotes, but request you do the rest - but please, only the ones that stand a chance - not like most of the ones I've seen so far -- JimWae 04:53, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
"That I am not a member of any Christian Church, is true; but I have never denied the truth of the Scriptures; and I have never spoken with intentional disrespect of religion in general, or of any denomination of Christians in particular . . . I do not think I could, myself, be brought to support a man for office whom I knew to be an open enemy of, and scoffer at religion." - "The Illinois Gazette," August 15, 1846.
"I sincerely hope father may recover his health; but at all events tell him to remember to call upon and confide in our great and good and merciful maker, who will not turn away from him in any extremity. He notes the fall of a sparrow and numbers the hairs of our head, and He will not forget the dying man who puts his trust in Him." - from a letter to his step-brother, in 1851, concerning the illness of their father.
"The will of God prevails. In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God . . . one must be wrong. God can not be for and against the same thing at the same time." - "Meditation on the Divine Will," 1862.
Jason, how do the following three quotes fit into your idea that AL was not a deist?
John T. Stuart, Lincoln's first law partner on Lincoln:
Joseph Lewis quoting Lincoln in a 1924 speech in New York:
Lincoln in a letter to Judge J.S. Wakefield, after the death of Willie Lincoln:
David D. (Talk) 08:10, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Why are people trying to remove Washington from the list? Lincoln, as discussed above, would never write directly about his deism (being involved with the Christian church was a political necessity) do you think Washington would have made that mistake? What is the level of proof that you both ( User:Jason Gastrich and User:JJstroker) need to see for his deism? It is clear he is was not a Christian, but he believed in a god, that's a good start. The vast majority of historians agree that he was a deist. May be you both believe he was a Christian, is that why you want him off the list? Do you also believe he chopped down a cherry tree? David D. (Talk) 17:50, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
The citation here used to support the notion that Washington was a Deist, never even mentions Washington. It is an article on James Monroe. In fact, there is nothing here given to support the conclusion that Washington was a deist.
Because a bunch of liberal academics who hate all dead white males say so, is not a reliable, verifiable argument.
If one looks at many of his quotes and proclamations, one instantly sees that he firmly believes in God taking part in our governance. "Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and—Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me “to recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:” [1]
Deism is defined, here on Wikipedia as well, as "Deism holds that God does not intervene with the functioning of the natural world in any way, allowing it to run according to the laws of nature." By that definition anyone that believes in a Creator that actively guides us would not be a Deist. It's that simple. If you look at President Washington's Thanksgiving proclamation you will clearly see that he certainly believes that God actively participates in the affairs of men. It is not that complicated. Please remove him from this list.
AirborneLt (
talk)
07:21, 13 July 2013 (UTC) Airborne1Lt
References
If this is all of your evidence that Lincoln was a deist, I move to remove him from the list. The burden of proof is severely lacking. Furthermore, I also move to remove any others that have not been supported with proof. We cannot assume that the other 7 are deists without proof, so they should not be listed in this entry, either. -- Jason Gastrich 20:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
What is the proof that users such as User:Jason Gastrich and User:JJstroker require to attribute deism to an historical figure? If the burdon of proof is so high why are they happy to leave all the other so called deists on this list but feel that the founding fathers need to be removed? David D. (Talk) 23:10, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Just refference a historian... though his minister saying he was a deist is pretty convincing....
Sethie
07:03, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Sourcing the list should resolve things. Durova 03:39, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
The source cited for Washington is actually about James Monroe. Washington is never even mentioned. Simply ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AirborneLt ( talk • contribs) 07:33, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
I started this section to discuss the criteria we should use to conclude that a person is a deist. At the very least, we should find firsthand quotes from the people in question that are consistent with a belief in deism. If we find quotes that are contrary to the deistic belief system, then that person should not be called a deist. Should we consider anything else?-- Jason Gastrich 04:10, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Actually this line of reasoning flirts with the NOR rule. In most cases it's better to cite some historian. Durova 17:28, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
25 of the names are now sourced. I've removed the cleanup tag. BTW someone with a conservative Christian agenda has been using this page on another site for a critique. Regards, Durova 04:07, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
From the Encarta Dictionary: "a belief in God based on reason rather than revelation and involving the view that God has set the universe in motion but does not interfere with how it runs."
A quote from his Second Inaugural Address in March of 1865: "Both [North and South] read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes." When a Northern minister said to the president that he "hoped the Lord is on our side." Responded Lincoln, "I am not at all concerned about that. . . . But it is my constant anxiety and prayer that I and this nation should be on the Lord's side."
As with this quote and the one posted earlier concerning prayer. You only pray when you believe in miracles. It makes absolutely no sense for someone to pray for someone who is sick if they won't believe that God would intervene in some way. In the definition above it states that God does not interfere with how it runs. It is quite obvious here that he believes that God would interfere with how the world runs, just in the one given point that he prayed. In the quote I gave above Lincoln also stated that God could not answer both prayers of the South and the North because they were opposing prayers. He also states that the "Almighty has his own purposes". He believed that the Lord had his own purposes on how he would answer the prayers concerning the war and slavery. So if he had a purpose, then he is more involved than in just setting the universe in motion. He also is anxious and prays that Lincoln and the North be on the Lord's side. Why should Lincoln care if he is on the Lord's side or not, if he didn't believe in some type of judgement, which in the definition does not apply. Speaking of judgement, he also quotes here the scripture concerning, "that we be not judged". Judgement comes in many forms as Lincoln certainly believes since he is concerned by his "constant anxiety and prayer". Just another point, Lincoln was a continual reader of the Bible, and anyone who believes that he can take comfort and guidance from it must have some type of belief in it and the miracles and prophecies that it contains.
Whether or not we can pinpoint as to what his faith was as far as denomination does not make him a deist, neither does the fact that he discontinued his visits to the Baptist Church. There have been many people in history that have been disillusioned by different denominations that they have visited, but could never find one that they thought lined up with the teachings of the Bible. These people could certainly not fit into this category. I myself was in this position for many, many years and I never fit into being a deist.
History is riddled with those who abused the religious positions that they held. Many people have been disconcerted and discouraged with those that taught contrary to the Bible, but yet claimed to be its minister. Those that can find no church teaching what they read about in the New Testament, and have quit going to church entirely are convicted about not going to any Church unless they find the one they believe teaches what they believe to be the truth concerning the Bible. There are many thousands of these people out there now! This does not make them deists.
By the way, I myself have no concervative agenda. I do not partake in political arguments. I just ran across this by accident and I believe that it is inacurate to say the least to list Abraham Lincoln here. There are others on this list that I do not think belong here either, but I don't have the time to dispute them, though I do have the needed information. I really think that you should look at this with an open mind and seriously consider my arguments.
Thank you.
Oh, by the way here are some more quotes:
A President Lincoln on his knees praying to God asking for victory at Gettysburg. God took the whole business into his own hands. A man comforted by his God by his knowing that he has taken control. Now this is someone that believes that God is interfering by "taking control". No this man was not a deist.
July 5, 1863 to General Dan Sickles:
"Well, I will tell you how it was. In the pinch of the campaign up there (at Gettysburg) when everybody seemed panic stricken and nobody could tell what was going to happen, oppressed by the gravity of our affairs, I went to my room one day and locked the door and got down on my knees before Almighty God and prayed to Him mightily for victory at Gettysburg. I told Him that this war was His war, and our cause His cause, but we could not stand another Fredericksburg or Chancellorsville... And after that, I don't know how it was, and I cannot explain it, but soon a sweet comfort crept into my soul. The feeling came that God had taken the whole business into His own hands and that things would go right at Gettysburg and that is why I had no fears about you."
March 30, 1863 One of Lincoln's proclomations for a national day of prayer and fasting:
"It is the duty of nations as well as of men to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, and to confess their sins and transgressions in humble sorrow, yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon, and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in Holy Scripture, and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord. And, insomuch (sic) as we know that by His divine law nations, like individuals, are subjected to punishments and chastisement in this world, may we not justly fear that the awful calamity of civil war which now desolates the land may be but a punishment inflicted upon us for our presumptuous sins, to the needful end of our national reformation as a whole people? We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of Heaven; we have been preserved these many years in peace and prosperity; we have grown in numbers, wealth and power as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which has preserved us in peace and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us, and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us. It behooves us, then, to humble ourselves before the offended power, to confess our national sins and to pray for clemency and forgiveness."
Here is a quote supporting my argument that he was not satisfied with a church, because he could not find one that taught the Bible accurately:
"When any church will inscribe over its altar, as its sole qualification for membership, the Savior's condensed statement of the substance of both law and Gospel, 'Thou shalt love the lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul and thy neighbor as thyself' that church will I join with all my heart and all my soul."
The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, ed. Roy P. Basler, (New Brunswick, N.J.: Rutgers University Press, 1953-55), 1:382.
July 31, 1846 Though this statement has been quoted above, the statement is made here that he has never denied the truth of the Scriptures. If he then believed them, then he believed the prophecies and the miracles printed therein:
"That I am not a member of any Christian church is true; but I have never denied the truth of the Scriptures; and I have never spoken with intentional disrespect of religion in general, or of any denomination of Christians in particular....I do not think I could myself be brought to support a man for office whom I knew to be an open enemy of, or scoffer at, religion."
There is much more than I have quoted. What else would anyone need to prove he was not a deist?
Thanks again for your consideration.
I removed Stephen Hawking from the list. Dr. Hawking's works and other statements evince no tendency or sympathy towards deism; the link used to justify his inclusion in this list justifies his status as an agnostic, not a deist.
Why is Jefferson as deist disputed? Coleca 21:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson -- He was AGNOSTIC —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
98.234.120.60 (
talk)
07:44, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Why not combine this article with Deism page
Was Einstein a deist? No. Einstein has never said that he was a deist. Many writers have identified Einstein as a pantheist. The deist God is some kind of cosmic intelligence. And, Einstein has never clearly said that he believed in such God. Thus, it would be wrong to call Einstein a deist. RS
This is correct. "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings." -Albert Einstein -- Spinoza, and thus Einstein, was a Pantheist
"I'm not an atheist, and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations." - Einstein it seems could be described as a form of a deist, he seems to reject atheism, theism and pantheism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.235.127.54 ( talk) 10:17, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
List looks kinda crappy without images, and seeing as most of the people listed are long dead, it should be easy. I just can't be arsed at the moment. Use the format in List of atheists (film, radio, television and theatre) -- Closedmouth ( talk) 13:46, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
It seems it is in alphabetical order by first name, but then not ALL of them are. Zeek Aran ( talk) 23:03, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
I've noticed that quite a lot of people categorize Charles Darwin as leaning (or, indeed, fluctuating) towards deism, though he never actually used the word himself. Between 1851 (the year his daughter Annie died) and 1879 (when he said an Agnostic would be the correct description of his state of mind) he no longer believed in the Christian God or in any revelation, but he accepted some kind of a cosmic intelligece as the First Cause and the designer of the laws of nature (nowadays known as the "fine-tuning" argument), which left the individual events indeterministic. Doesn't this actually fit into most definitions of deism?
Is there any source in English proving that Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was a deist? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.196.253.26 ( talk) 15:01, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
I don't believe there is even a Turkish source proving that Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was a deist. The source given in the page is the website of a group, and within that web site there is no text claiming that Atatürk was a deist. Gökdeniz Karadağ ( talk) 13:10, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Oh, the video got deleted. Why do old videos tend to get deleted so much? Sad. 178.120.68.149 ( talk) 00:11, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
Lessing denied he was a Diest. See: [1]. Tstrobaugh ( talk) 17:41, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
There is some sentences that we can say it is possible that to say Atatürk was a deist. At the national assembly opening in 1937 He said
'We do not consider our principles as dogmas contained in books that are said to come from heaven. We derive our inspiration, not from heaven, or from an unseen world, but directly from life.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mediterranean33 ( talk • contribs) 02:00, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist"
I suggest people read the book: Einstein : His Life and Universe. Where it supports that he was a deist (although not the same way the founding fathers were)
I find that pretty ironic on a page about people dedicated to rationality. Obviously, alphabetizing by last name would be much more useful for reference purposes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rsquire3 ( talk • contribs) 05:17, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
The recently created account Patriotsprice ( talk · contribs) changed the entry for Jefferson to read:
72.244.204.123 ( talk) 21:33, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I know Lincoln never called himself a Deist and that the greek philosopher predates the term.
There for neither should be on this list. 107.199.68.228 ( talk) 04:43, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
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Victor Hugo and Mark Twain use this source, but the source states that it was copied from this Wikipedia page. Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 18:44, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
I suggest adding Elihu Palmer.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elihu_Palmer
-Caleb 184.153.244.70 ( talk) 20:09, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
If no one objects I am going to make this list chronological. Since Deism had one period of relevance and is rather obscure outside of that, readers might be interested to know how many and what kind of followers it had in different time periods. Right now it is a mess but alphabetization (like it used to be) is only helpful if someone wants to know if a specific person was Deist, which can be done with ctrl-f, on their article, or elsewhere. mossypiglet ( talk) Go blue! 18:58, 11 October 2022 (UTC)