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with this list. I don't want to get to the point where a reference is needed for each film, but we might get there. For example, Gran Torino, takes place in Highland Park, Michigan. What, besides having Clint Eastwood in it makes it a western? Dirty Harry too. But, as the song says, I'll do nothing 'till I hear from you. For a while. Carptrash ( talk) 21:33, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
There are far to many film that, to me, do not belong there- I would disagree. I'm hard-pressed to see much on the list that isn't representative of the genre. Addressing specifically the two you've noted (Dirty Harry and Gran Torino), I'd say start by making sure you understand what the Contemporary Western (or Urban, or Neo-Western) subgenre consists of. For example, location is not necessarily important (i.e. your reference to a setting of Michigan). The Neo-Western as a genre does not necessarily take place in the American West, like a classic Western. Rather, it's a subgenre that contains elements of the Western genre, and also anti-elements (such as the presence of the "anti-hero"). Dirty Harry definitely has key elements of the textbook neo-Western - the gunslinging, rebellious antihero lawman who follows his own moral compass on a quest for justice. Rebecca Umland goes into this fairly in depth in her book, Outlaw Heroes as Liminal Figures of Film, [1] briefly noting the following quote:
The urban western, exemplified by the popularity and iconic status of the Dirty Harry and Death Wish films... In each case, the hero negotiates between conflicting values, reconciling competing ideological stances.(p. 5)
Even when the film is not explicitly a Western, cowboy/frontier elements can be discerned (Coogan's Bluff and Dirty Harry can be read as modern Westerns).(p. 181)
[An] example of sincerity trumping violence can be witnessed at the very close of Clint Eastwood's 2008 Urban Western, Gran Torino, a meditation on aging, ethnic strife, class discontent, and urban violence in contemporary American life, as well as a meta-cinematic reflection on Eastwood's own long career as an actor and director. According to the conventions of the genre, which Eastwood's youthful performances largely helped to cement, virility and thus patriarchal rights are secured through public performances of competence; and competence, in turn, is measured and proven in (successful) acts of violence. (p. 17)
I would say if this list is retained it's going to need serious sourcing- I don't disagree with that; it's never a bad thing. And I'll certainly agree that GTAV should probably be gone - I kind of glanced right past that one before. That was probably on there originally as everything was copied over from the Western (genre) article subsection on the Neo-Western subgenre ( [4]). That's where this list article started. It was an over-exhaustive prose list that is better suited to a list article; but when it was in the Westerns (genre) article, none of it was sourced (as was the case for much of that article). I've been working on cleaning that article up, as well as the list of subgenres that was split from it. It just takes time to work on clean up. So as for fixing this list, some are certainly obvious examples of the genre, and the easy and obvious are less likely to be questioned. For the reason that Intothatdarkness mentioned, anything that is questionable should be sourced:
it's open to a very broad and not necessarily accurate interpretation. It's not whether you or I think it's a Contemporary or Neo or Urban Western, but rather whether reliable (citable) critics do. But I think the more one delves into the genre (or rather, subgenre), it does become more clear what is and what isn't. Anyway, I started adding some references ButlerBlog ( talk) 05:30, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
which includes about 50% (to make up a statistic) of the films made today, rendering the term "neo-western" pretty much useless.- it may start off seeming that way, but it's a little deeper than that. I understand, though, as I went through a phase of "Isn't everything basically a neo-Western" which obviously isn't the case. Some are more recognizable than others, for sure. ButlerBlog ( talk) 16:50, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
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with this list. I don't want to get to the point where a reference is needed for each film, but we might get there. For example, Gran Torino, takes place in Highland Park, Michigan. What, besides having Clint Eastwood in it makes it a western? Dirty Harry too. But, as the song says, I'll do nothing 'till I hear from you. For a while. Carptrash ( talk) 21:33, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
There are far to many film that, to me, do not belong there- I would disagree. I'm hard-pressed to see much on the list that isn't representative of the genre. Addressing specifically the two you've noted (Dirty Harry and Gran Torino), I'd say start by making sure you understand what the Contemporary Western (or Urban, or Neo-Western) subgenre consists of. For example, location is not necessarily important (i.e. your reference to a setting of Michigan). The Neo-Western as a genre does not necessarily take place in the American West, like a classic Western. Rather, it's a subgenre that contains elements of the Western genre, and also anti-elements (such as the presence of the "anti-hero"). Dirty Harry definitely has key elements of the textbook neo-Western - the gunslinging, rebellious antihero lawman who follows his own moral compass on a quest for justice. Rebecca Umland goes into this fairly in depth in her book, Outlaw Heroes as Liminal Figures of Film, [1] briefly noting the following quote:
The urban western, exemplified by the popularity and iconic status of the Dirty Harry and Death Wish films... In each case, the hero negotiates between conflicting values, reconciling competing ideological stances.(p. 5)
Even when the film is not explicitly a Western, cowboy/frontier elements can be discerned (Coogan's Bluff and Dirty Harry can be read as modern Westerns).(p. 181)
[An] example of sincerity trumping violence can be witnessed at the very close of Clint Eastwood's 2008 Urban Western, Gran Torino, a meditation on aging, ethnic strife, class discontent, and urban violence in contemporary American life, as well as a meta-cinematic reflection on Eastwood's own long career as an actor and director. According to the conventions of the genre, which Eastwood's youthful performances largely helped to cement, virility and thus patriarchal rights are secured through public performances of competence; and competence, in turn, is measured and proven in (successful) acts of violence. (p. 17)
I would say if this list is retained it's going to need serious sourcing- I don't disagree with that; it's never a bad thing. And I'll certainly agree that GTAV should probably be gone - I kind of glanced right past that one before. That was probably on there originally as everything was copied over from the Western (genre) article subsection on the Neo-Western subgenre ( [4]). That's where this list article started. It was an over-exhaustive prose list that is better suited to a list article; but when it was in the Westerns (genre) article, none of it was sourced (as was the case for much of that article). I've been working on cleaning that article up, as well as the list of subgenres that was split from it. It just takes time to work on clean up. So as for fixing this list, some are certainly obvious examples of the genre, and the easy and obvious are less likely to be questioned. For the reason that Intothatdarkness mentioned, anything that is questionable should be sourced:
it's open to a very broad and not necessarily accurate interpretation. It's not whether you or I think it's a Contemporary or Neo or Urban Western, but rather whether reliable (citable) critics do. But I think the more one delves into the genre (or rather, subgenre), it does become more clear what is and what isn't. Anyway, I started adding some references ButlerBlog ( talk) 05:30, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
which includes about 50% (to make up a statistic) of the films made today, rendering the term "neo-western" pretty much useless.- it may start off seeming that way, but it's a little deeper than that. I understand, though, as I went through a phase of "Isn't everything basically a neo-Western" which obviously isn't the case. Some are more recognizable than others, for sure. ButlerBlog ( talk) 16:50, 1 February 2023 (UTC)