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An anon moved this article from Christian views on homosexuality. I am wondering whether this article should be moved back. → JarlaxleArtemis 03:27, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
Is the American Episcopal CHurch mentioned in this article? If not, it should be. Esp given the recent controversy over homosexual marriage that's dividing the church right now. Sexperts 18:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I found that the table of accepted practices of non-celibate homosexuals showed that Roman Catholics' ordination of homsexuals "varied" and that non-celibate homosexuals were "allowed as members." The Catholic Church's teaching, as correctly noted elsewhere, is that homosexual acts are gravely sinful. Those who happen to have homophilic urges but who remain chaste are welcomed into full membership in the church. Those who are not chaste are not to receive communion, the rite by which spiritual membership is recognized. In one sense, they may remain members in that the Church retains official records in the hopes of their repentence, but the table infers homosexuality is considered permissible, which it is not. Mercy is not permission.
The notion that homosexual acts are permitted by priests is absurd. Official instructions are that even those inclined towards homosexuality are unfit for the priesthood. The flagrant abuse of leniency in punishment is not permission.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.143.31.101 ( talk) 21:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC).
I have found that people have edited the description of the Catholic Church's position on homosexuality so as to indicate that the Catholic church permits homosexuality. Such people have not bothered to justify their changes. 69.143.31.101 17:06, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
This article uses the religioustolerance.org website as either a reference or a link. Please see the discussion on Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org and Wikipedia:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org as to whether Wikipedia should cite the religioustolerance.org website, jguk 14:10, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
As the section removed states Unitarian Universalism is not a Christian denomination and as such should not be included in this article. The Unitarian Universalist position on homosexuality should be stated somewhere in the web of articles relation to homosexuality and religion, but having it here is disingenuous. Further more I personally find it defamatory and insulting linking such open minded and accepting people (Unitarian Universalists) with such a lot bigots (Christians). If someone does edit it back please leave my objections intact. 71.111.15.178 09:57, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Unitarianism is, at the very least, culturally part of the broader Christian tradition. As mentioned in the article, some Unitarians consider themselves to be Christians and some to do. For that reason alone it is appropraite to list their view as part of a discussion of broader Christian approaches.-- Sjharte 11:12, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
<On Quakers, you are describing a regional minority. Yearly Meetings are all independent in every way... The super-majority of Friends drifted more towards protestant fundamentalism than to 'makeitupasyougoallongism'. Unfortunately, due to 150 year old... and newer arguments, many of the Yearly meetings spend more effort trying to be unlike someone else than like them.> My understanding is the very-liberal side is a very small minority. Where I live Quakers have been described as 'pretty much just like the Nazarenes.
You're absolutely right. I used to attend a UU congregation. They nearly ran their interim minister out of town for quoting from Biblical sources. I realise that this is not typical, but U*Uism is no longer related (other than historically) to Christianity. I have started a new page. Carolynparrishfan 20:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry for not adding this at the bottom of the page, but I feal it is neccicary because it only relates to a statement made here. I capitalized "Christ" for a reason. Many relions and christians do not, though in proper LDS termonology and in LDS common society it is almost always capitalized. If you feel it shouldn't be the only solution I would suggest would be putting quotation marks around the word showing that it is from an LDS view. The original author of the section used the title "Jesus" but as it is more common in the LDS community to say "Christ"; though "Jesus" is used, "Christ" is much more common and it is proper to LDS people to capitolize the "C" in showing respect to deity etc. I live in Salt Lake City, I have discussed this with many who agree that "Christ" is used much more often and is proper in the LDS church to capitalize. No person in Utah who is LDS or "mormon" that I have talked with has disagreed, in fact. I talked with many for the matter; not just a few that I like. I know this isn't a huge issue. But I belive strongly in making statements proper; especially on a contravercial topic. Thank you. Great article overall TheMusicalGenius 00:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC) One way to settle it -- quote some famous LDS expert and put the whole statement in quotes so that there is no wierd Christ-in-quotes problem. WP:WWBD MPS 19:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Using the term "Homosexuals" for gay and lesbian people is at the least betraying a conservative bias, as the term is medicalizing/pathologizing, and at the worst is considered fairly derogatory by some. The sections of this article that are quoting official documents of a denomination should use the language of the document; otherwise, the article should avoid using "homosexuals" when "gay and lesbian persons" or "LBGT people" is more appropriate. Emerymat 02:18, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Ummm, interesting, but wrong. "Homosexual" is rarely used by gays and lesbians in their self-description. More to the point, it is not used in Wikipedia. I have adjusted this. Also, a few of the denominations were said to condemn homosexuality, but promote respect for gays and lesbians as persons. I have softened the language (usu. to sth like "purports to promote"), because obviously the jury is still out on how much these groups themselves actually respect gays and lesbians. It's not within the scope of Wikipedia to determine whether a denom is engendering respect or any other sentiment. Carolynparrishfan 15:22, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was don't move. — Nightst a llion (?) Seen this already? 07:34, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
First off, I couldn't believe my eyes that I saw people even disputing this. I understand everyone has their own view on just about anything. But the title "Homosexual" is not a derogatory term. Though some might view it this way, it is not so. Just because a certain amount of people don't like a term means nothing on here. "Gay" and "Lesbian" are terms more in context with society. Where as "Homosexual" is more descriptive. Homo and sexual; the same sex. It really is an appropriate term. I can say that a person is black or I can say African-American(If they are) and someone is bound get offended at either title. So to be fair to them, simply use the most appropriate and un-biased term. I'm not sure what it would be. I would think black, but I'm not an expert in the area. But the term "homosexual" isn't saying "Faggot" etc. it is simply a descriptive word. A friend of mine who is gay says the word "gay". He does not say "homosexual". I imagine most people who are "gay" do not. But a person who knows nothing of the subject is more likely to understand what "homosexual" means, as the two words together are decribing, than if they were to read words like "Gay" and "Lesbian" which are more aligned with some societies.
List of Christian denominational positions on homosexuality → List of Christian views on homosexuality – To make it more likely that people will actually find this in a search. -- Hyphen5 02:35, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm even tempted to propose merging this back into Homosexuality and Christianity, simply because that's what the purpose of that article is... to discuss Christian views on homosexuality. But it doesn't; it links to this article for that. That seems pretty strange to me. What do you all think? -- Hyphen5 02:47, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed this line from the section on Catholicism:
However, if a homosexual man has abstained for at least three years, he may be accepted to begin seminary studies. citation needed
It was in contradiction with the rest of the section, which was cited, so I thought it confusing and likely inaccurate. Lostcaesar 14:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
With the aid of Google and Babelfish, I think I've determined that the "Evangelischer Gnadauer Gemeinschaftsverband" recently added to the page is a component organization of the Evangelical Church in Germany. If so, can the section name be changed and a more detailed doctrinal description (rather than just the opinions of most members) be added? DanB DanD 17:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
This may sound like a bit of an odd request, but could we maybe get a simple table for this? Either to replace the article (Splintering each church's views into it's own article, as has already been done with some) or to be placed at the bottom. For example the first column would list denemoninations. How the rest would go, I'm not quite sure. It would either be a column with a short summary of the views or perhaps several column to be checked or unchecked. (i.e. column two is titled "Allows Openly Gay/Lesbian parishoners, three is Sanctions Same-Sex Marriage, four is Allows Openly Gay/Lesbian Clergy). I just thought it might make it easier to read. It would be easier for my interests, aty least.
Just a thought. -- 72.12.30.143 08:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
"Ask and ye shall receive." Carolynparrishfan 15:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Carolynparrishfan, the table is great.
I'm bit puzzled by your alteration of "homosexual" to "homogenital" in some places. I'm not crazy about "homosexual" myself, but "homogenital" seems even more medicalizing and also has the disadvantage of being unfamiliar to most people. What is the rationale for the change? DanB DanD 23:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
We have to know, that european states are more liberal in sexual issues and so we have more liberal views in Christian denominational positions on homosexuality in europe. GLGerman 21:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)GLGerman
The article's table is unclear. For the column that outlines the denominations' stance on whether or not homosexuals are allowed to be members, what is meant by a "homosexual"? Is it meant "someone who is attracted to others of the same sex", or the more traditional Christian view of "someone who engages in homosexual relations"? ~ Hairouna 21:43, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
There are no christian churches in Germany which doesn´t allow homosexual members in church. GLGerman 01:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
In fact, there is made a difference between those living in a homosexual relationship and those not. In christian communities that is the case. That has to be made clear if the box should be helpful at all. I don't actually like the words non-celibate or practicing homosexual, however. So the language must be considered. Summer Song 18:52, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Why is Evangleical Christianity not included? Evangelicals are also a denomination of Christians! - Some Guy421 18:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think it is accurate to call this a list. While there is a summary table at the top, there is also quite a lot of text. I think we should dump the "List of" portion of the name, or the text should be put into another/other article(s). Thoughts? Aleta 02:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
According to the chart, Presbyterians don't ordain gay clergy. However, I personally know an openly gay Presbyterian minister, active as pastor of a church. What is up with that? Dybryd 03:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I've just come across this article for the first time and find it confusing to say the least. For example, under the heading Anglicanism there is a table that appears to cover a whole list of non-anglican denominarions. As I read down, claim after claim is made without any supporting reference and many of the claims surprise me to say the least! In addition, the article is heavily influenced by the position in the USA which, though important, may be different from elsewhere in the world even for the same denomination. Perhaps what would be an improvement would be for the article to broken up into different continents. Cheers Fishiehelper2 ( talk) 20:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed this section. This church is not generally accepted as Christian denomination. The founder of the church is apparently held as the messiah. It would seem that the Unification church would see itself as Christian, but no other organizations, churches etc agree with this. To retain it herein would be non-neutral, because the facts are that its beliefs and practices are not accepted as Christian except by members. Here's a short list of references when searching for the answer to the question: "Is the unification church Christian?".
Fremte ( talk) 22:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
What is actually the difference between "Yes, if celibate" and "No"? Summer Song ( talk) 02:52, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Sexual orientation is not defined by action; one does not have to actively engage in sexual activity to identify as homosexual or heterosexual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.31.220.49 ( talk) 04:53, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Most churches have no problem with people who have a homosexual orientation if they are celibate (there is even some debate within religious communities etc. about what being celibate means - whether it entails no intimate contact, or intimacy without specifically genital sexual acts - this has changed in the past few years in the Catholic church (for example), where it is the attraction that is seen as problematic, not just the activity, with a more stringent definition of celibacy which precludes any intimacy with others of the same sex). People who identify as gay or lesbian, being homosexual, are still homosexual regardless of whether they are having any sexual relationships. This is the same for people who are celibate, they do not cease being homosexual simply because they are not actively engaging in homosexual activity. That is the condition upon which such churches accept people who are homosexual. Mish ( talk) 12:04, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
In Stockholm open lesbian woman Eva Brunne is elected as bishop in Church of Sweden. GLGermann ( talk) 14:05, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I am not a member of Community of Christ (formerly RLDS), but I would be very interested in knowing their official views on homosexuality as compared to other Christian denominations. I think it would be good to include those views in this article.--Butch Bowman —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.130.6.70 ( talk) 14:35, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
An anon moved this article from Christian views on homosexuality. I am wondering whether this article should be moved back. → JarlaxleArtemis 03:27, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
Is the American Episcopal CHurch mentioned in this article? If not, it should be. Esp given the recent controversy over homosexual marriage that's dividing the church right now. Sexperts 18:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I found that the table of accepted practices of non-celibate homosexuals showed that Roman Catholics' ordination of homsexuals "varied" and that non-celibate homosexuals were "allowed as members." The Catholic Church's teaching, as correctly noted elsewhere, is that homosexual acts are gravely sinful. Those who happen to have homophilic urges but who remain chaste are welcomed into full membership in the church. Those who are not chaste are not to receive communion, the rite by which spiritual membership is recognized. In one sense, they may remain members in that the Church retains official records in the hopes of their repentence, but the table infers homosexuality is considered permissible, which it is not. Mercy is not permission.
The notion that homosexual acts are permitted by priests is absurd. Official instructions are that even those inclined towards homosexuality are unfit for the priesthood. The flagrant abuse of leniency in punishment is not permission.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.143.31.101 ( talk) 21:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC).
I have found that people have edited the description of the Catholic Church's position on homosexuality so as to indicate that the Catholic church permits homosexuality. Such people have not bothered to justify their changes. 69.143.31.101 17:06, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
This article uses the religioustolerance.org website as either a reference or a link. Please see the discussion on Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org and Wikipedia:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org as to whether Wikipedia should cite the religioustolerance.org website, jguk 14:10, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
As the section removed states Unitarian Universalism is not a Christian denomination and as such should not be included in this article. The Unitarian Universalist position on homosexuality should be stated somewhere in the web of articles relation to homosexuality and religion, but having it here is disingenuous. Further more I personally find it defamatory and insulting linking such open minded and accepting people (Unitarian Universalists) with such a lot bigots (Christians). If someone does edit it back please leave my objections intact. 71.111.15.178 09:57, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Unitarianism is, at the very least, culturally part of the broader Christian tradition. As mentioned in the article, some Unitarians consider themselves to be Christians and some to do. For that reason alone it is appropraite to list their view as part of a discussion of broader Christian approaches.-- Sjharte 11:12, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
<On Quakers, you are describing a regional minority. Yearly Meetings are all independent in every way... The super-majority of Friends drifted more towards protestant fundamentalism than to 'makeitupasyougoallongism'. Unfortunately, due to 150 year old... and newer arguments, many of the Yearly meetings spend more effort trying to be unlike someone else than like them.> My understanding is the very-liberal side is a very small minority. Where I live Quakers have been described as 'pretty much just like the Nazarenes.
You're absolutely right. I used to attend a UU congregation. They nearly ran their interim minister out of town for quoting from Biblical sources. I realise that this is not typical, but U*Uism is no longer related (other than historically) to Christianity. I have started a new page. Carolynparrishfan 20:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry for not adding this at the bottom of the page, but I feal it is neccicary because it only relates to a statement made here. I capitalized "Christ" for a reason. Many relions and christians do not, though in proper LDS termonology and in LDS common society it is almost always capitalized. If you feel it shouldn't be the only solution I would suggest would be putting quotation marks around the word showing that it is from an LDS view. The original author of the section used the title "Jesus" but as it is more common in the LDS community to say "Christ"; though "Jesus" is used, "Christ" is much more common and it is proper to LDS people to capitolize the "C" in showing respect to deity etc. I live in Salt Lake City, I have discussed this with many who agree that "Christ" is used much more often and is proper in the LDS church to capitalize. No person in Utah who is LDS or "mormon" that I have talked with has disagreed, in fact. I talked with many for the matter; not just a few that I like. I know this isn't a huge issue. But I belive strongly in making statements proper; especially on a contravercial topic. Thank you. Great article overall TheMusicalGenius 00:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC) One way to settle it -- quote some famous LDS expert and put the whole statement in quotes so that there is no wierd Christ-in-quotes problem. WP:WWBD MPS 19:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Using the term "Homosexuals" for gay and lesbian people is at the least betraying a conservative bias, as the term is medicalizing/pathologizing, and at the worst is considered fairly derogatory by some. The sections of this article that are quoting official documents of a denomination should use the language of the document; otherwise, the article should avoid using "homosexuals" when "gay and lesbian persons" or "LBGT people" is more appropriate. Emerymat 02:18, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Ummm, interesting, but wrong. "Homosexual" is rarely used by gays and lesbians in their self-description. More to the point, it is not used in Wikipedia. I have adjusted this. Also, a few of the denominations were said to condemn homosexuality, but promote respect for gays and lesbians as persons. I have softened the language (usu. to sth like "purports to promote"), because obviously the jury is still out on how much these groups themselves actually respect gays and lesbians. It's not within the scope of Wikipedia to determine whether a denom is engendering respect or any other sentiment. Carolynparrishfan 15:22, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was don't move. — Nightst a llion (?) Seen this already? 07:34, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
First off, I couldn't believe my eyes that I saw people even disputing this. I understand everyone has their own view on just about anything. But the title "Homosexual" is not a derogatory term. Though some might view it this way, it is not so. Just because a certain amount of people don't like a term means nothing on here. "Gay" and "Lesbian" are terms more in context with society. Where as "Homosexual" is more descriptive. Homo and sexual; the same sex. It really is an appropriate term. I can say that a person is black or I can say African-American(If they are) and someone is bound get offended at either title. So to be fair to them, simply use the most appropriate and un-biased term. I'm not sure what it would be. I would think black, but I'm not an expert in the area. But the term "homosexual" isn't saying "Faggot" etc. it is simply a descriptive word. A friend of mine who is gay says the word "gay". He does not say "homosexual". I imagine most people who are "gay" do not. But a person who knows nothing of the subject is more likely to understand what "homosexual" means, as the two words together are decribing, than if they were to read words like "Gay" and "Lesbian" which are more aligned with some societies.
List of Christian denominational positions on homosexuality → List of Christian views on homosexuality – To make it more likely that people will actually find this in a search. -- Hyphen5 02:35, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm even tempted to propose merging this back into Homosexuality and Christianity, simply because that's what the purpose of that article is... to discuss Christian views on homosexuality. But it doesn't; it links to this article for that. That seems pretty strange to me. What do you all think? -- Hyphen5 02:47, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed this line from the section on Catholicism:
However, if a homosexual man has abstained for at least three years, he may be accepted to begin seminary studies. citation needed
It was in contradiction with the rest of the section, which was cited, so I thought it confusing and likely inaccurate. Lostcaesar 14:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
With the aid of Google and Babelfish, I think I've determined that the "Evangelischer Gnadauer Gemeinschaftsverband" recently added to the page is a component organization of the Evangelical Church in Germany. If so, can the section name be changed and a more detailed doctrinal description (rather than just the opinions of most members) be added? DanB DanD 17:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
This may sound like a bit of an odd request, but could we maybe get a simple table for this? Either to replace the article (Splintering each church's views into it's own article, as has already been done with some) or to be placed at the bottom. For example the first column would list denemoninations. How the rest would go, I'm not quite sure. It would either be a column with a short summary of the views or perhaps several column to be checked or unchecked. (i.e. column two is titled "Allows Openly Gay/Lesbian parishoners, three is Sanctions Same-Sex Marriage, four is Allows Openly Gay/Lesbian Clergy). I just thought it might make it easier to read. It would be easier for my interests, aty least.
Just a thought. -- 72.12.30.143 08:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
"Ask and ye shall receive." Carolynparrishfan 15:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Carolynparrishfan, the table is great.
I'm bit puzzled by your alteration of "homosexual" to "homogenital" in some places. I'm not crazy about "homosexual" myself, but "homogenital" seems even more medicalizing and also has the disadvantage of being unfamiliar to most people. What is the rationale for the change? DanB DanD 23:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
We have to know, that european states are more liberal in sexual issues and so we have more liberal views in Christian denominational positions on homosexuality in europe. GLGerman 21:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)GLGerman
The article's table is unclear. For the column that outlines the denominations' stance on whether or not homosexuals are allowed to be members, what is meant by a "homosexual"? Is it meant "someone who is attracted to others of the same sex", or the more traditional Christian view of "someone who engages in homosexual relations"? ~ Hairouna 21:43, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
There are no christian churches in Germany which doesn´t allow homosexual members in church. GLGerman 01:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
In fact, there is made a difference between those living in a homosexual relationship and those not. In christian communities that is the case. That has to be made clear if the box should be helpful at all. I don't actually like the words non-celibate or practicing homosexual, however. So the language must be considered. Summer Song 18:52, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Why is Evangleical Christianity not included? Evangelicals are also a denomination of Christians! - Some Guy421 18:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think it is accurate to call this a list. While there is a summary table at the top, there is also quite a lot of text. I think we should dump the "List of" portion of the name, or the text should be put into another/other article(s). Thoughts? Aleta 02:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
According to the chart, Presbyterians don't ordain gay clergy. However, I personally know an openly gay Presbyterian minister, active as pastor of a church. What is up with that? Dybryd 03:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I've just come across this article for the first time and find it confusing to say the least. For example, under the heading Anglicanism there is a table that appears to cover a whole list of non-anglican denominarions. As I read down, claim after claim is made without any supporting reference and many of the claims surprise me to say the least! In addition, the article is heavily influenced by the position in the USA which, though important, may be different from elsewhere in the world even for the same denomination. Perhaps what would be an improvement would be for the article to broken up into different continents. Cheers Fishiehelper2 ( talk) 20:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed this section. This church is not generally accepted as Christian denomination. The founder of the church is apparently held as the messiah. It would seem that the Unification church would see itself as Christian, but no other organizations, churches etc agree with this. To retain it herein would be non-neutral, because the facts are that its beliefs and practices are not accepted as Christian except by members. Here's a short list of references when searching for the answer to the question: "Is the unification church Christian?".
Fremte ( talk) 22:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
What is actually the difference between "Yes, if celibate" and "No"? Summer Song ( talk) 02:52, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Sexual orientation is not defined by action; one does not have to actively engage in sexual activity to identify as homosexual or heterosexual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.31.220.49 ( talk) 04:53, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Most churches have no problem with people who have a homosexual orientation if they are celibate (there is even some debate within religious communities etc. about what being celibate means - whether it entails no intimate contact, or intimacy without specifically genital sexual acts - this has changed in the past few years in the Catholic church (for example), where it is the attraction that is seen as problematic, not just the activity, with a more stringent definition of celibacy which precludes any intimacy with others of the same sex). People who identify as gay or lesbian, being homosexual, are still homosexual regardless of whether they are having any sexual relationships. This is the same for people who are celibate, they do not cease being homosexual simply because they are not actively engaging in homosexual activity. That is the condition upon which such churches accept people who are homosexual. Mish ( talk) 12:04, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
In Stockholm open lesbian woman Eva Brunne is elected as bishop in Church of Sweden. GLGermann ( talk) 14:05, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I am not a member of Community of Christ (formerly RLDS), but I would be very interested in knowing their official views on homosexuality as compared to other Christian denominations. I think it would be good to include those views in this article.--Butch Bowman —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.130.6.70 ( talk) 14:35, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |