This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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This article was nominated for deletion on 18 August 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
Oscar Niemeyer: I have noted that there seem to be conflicting sources. It is of course quite possible that he is of mixed ancestry, or Jewish ancestry but converted. As always, WP:V requires us to cite what the sources say and not indulge in original research.-- Brownlee 13:29, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I have contacted them. Why does it look less than reliable? Of course, he might be both Jewish and Catholic; for example, he may be of Jewish ancestry but converted.-- Brownlee 10:41, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
What did they say? Where did they gather this information? As you well know, it's original research to assume he was both Jewish and Catholic. We can't weigh one source more highly than another. There is not list of Brazilian Catholics. Otherwise we could add him to both pending what the page-makers say. 72.144.147.245 21:06, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
We do not treat all sources of equal value unless there is a reason to. If you have contacted the website, why haven't you mentioned where they gathered their information? Perhaps their references may tell us if he, in fact, was a convert to Catholicism. Otherwise, it most definitely is original research to do assume so. 72.144.147.245 23:29, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
There is a simple way to prove that this page qualifies as an "unreliable source" and thus should not be given dominance to any other sources enough so to keep Niemeyer listed.
The following is all from WP:RS used in evaluating .
It is original research to say that this source is unreliable. Where there is a conflict of sources, we cite both sources, which I have done.-- Brownlee 11:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
That's begging the question: Is there any evidence that Jewish Brazil has no expertise regarding Jewish Brazilians? Maybe those behind the site are world authorities on Brazilian jewry; I am not saying they are, but it is OR to assume without evidence that they are not.-- Brownlee 12:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't really know the reasons of the dispute, but I cannot understand how someone wants the wikipedia editor to give sources for each people on the list! So I have to prove that one by one who is and who is not a Jew? This an absurd...the best was putting the most famous Brazilian Rabbi ever (Henry Sobel) as "unsourced". This is simply ridiculous! I will leave on the unsourced section just those who never declared theirselves as Jews or I simply never heard of. -- Dantadd 15:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I understand your point, but it's simply impossible to give sources to all tiny piece of information an encyclopedia provides. If your point of view should be applied to every single information on Wikipedia there would be more source information than information properly. So, in all articles or lists I have to give sources to the ethnicity, place and date of birth, complete name, profession and bla bla bla...?? It's insane and fallacious. -- Dantadd 14:09, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Oscar Niemeyer's Religion
To put a seal on the apparent confusion here. Oscar Niemeyer is undoubtedly without religion. Being a communist, religiouslessness isn't uncommon. Need I say MORE? So there is NO reason to put him on a list of people who attain a religion. However, Judaism apparently is seen as a race too, or something like that. The best place to find out if Niemeyer is racially would be his own memoirs. I have copied a segment of the book:
"The Curves of Time: The Memoirs of Oscar Niemeyer"
Page 6 (Bottom of Page)
"I shall start by remembering my origins. My name ought to be Oscar Ribeiro Soares or Oscar Ribeiro de Almeida de Niemeyer Soares, but the foreign name prevailed and I became known as Oscar Niemeyer. My ethnic roots are diverse, something I find particularly gratifying. Ribeiro and Soares are Portuguese names, ALmeida is Arabic, and Niemyer is German. Not to mention the blacks or Indians who, unknown to us, may also have been part of our family."
If he did have Jewish ethnic ancestry, certainly he would mention it here. He bothers to mention the possibility of African heritage but not Jewish? The question has come up that perhaps Niemeyer's family was religiously Jewish. This can be debunked here:
Page 8 (Middle of Page)
"This arbitrary attitude that my grandmother undoubtedly brought with her from her farm in Marica, and which by no means prevented her from being a top-notch housewife, manifested itself now and then in her outbursts: "Take that cloth off your head. Colored folk don't wear suck things." Even though I was only six or seven years old, the way she talked to the housemaid particularly upset me. My grandmother was religious, as was our whole family. Mass was held regularly at our house, with family members and our neighbors in attendance. On those days, she opened one of the five windows in the sitting room-its windowsill served as oratory-and recited the "Hail Mary" out loud. At times, when she was in one of her particularly insolent moods, my grandfather would say very gently, "Heave help us, that's on bossy woman." "
Now the question arises of why so many places DO call Niemeyer "Jewish." Well, it could be another case for the 'bad things about wikipedia' book. About a year ago somebody placed "Jewish Brazilian" on the header of the Oscar Niemeyer wiki article. This information has since spread to wiki mirrors and so any website that uses wiki mirrors as a source, will call Niemeyer "Jewish Brazilian" especially user-contributed and/or "game" websites like Derby Dead Pool linked by his name on this list.
The origin of this myth is probably not going to be obvious. Perhaps it began an assumptive journalist or perhaps even it began with last years wiki changes and then spread to the most easily attainable sources on Niemeyer, those on the internet.
Point is, it's probably safe to remove Niemeyer from this list, as if he doesn't mention Jewish background when talking about his own racial ancestry, we can only assume there is none. Online encyclopedias don't know more about Niemeyer than he himself does. - 69.212.
Hello. There are two defining characteristics of a Jew. To help alleviate the mess that arises here, I made allusions to a racially Jewish Niemeyer as well as a religiously Jewish Niemeyer. If he was either or, he could be considered a Jew. I began by debunking the assumption that he was religiously Jewish. Immediately afterwards, as anyone can check in the talk above, I said Jew is also a race, and that the best place to find out if he was racially Jewish is from....well himself. The following books are biographies of Oscar Niemeyer (though mostly these are about his work), the last is the above memoirs:
Oscar Niemeyer by Matthieu Salvaing Oscar Niemeyer by Stamo Papadaki Oscar Niemeyer: A Legend of Modernism by P.Andreas The Curves of Time: The Memoirs of Oscar Niemeyer by Oscar Niemeyer
All these books, easily available at any large library, fail to make any mention of Oscar Niemeyer being of Jewish dsecent, though most say he was of Portuguese and distant German descent. If his German ancestors were Jewish, why wouldn't he mention it or why wouldn't anyone in these publications mention it? He mentions African ancestors but not Jewish? If you are under the assumption that "Niemeyer" is a Jewish surname, it's not. "Niemeyer" is Northern German, typically exclusively Northern German in origin and also one of the most common surnames in that region. Otherwise, why would anyone assume they were Jewish?
The Derby Dead Pool link is user-contributed much like www.nndb.com. The term "Jewish Brazilian architect" can only be found in three places: [1]. Two are wiki mirrors mirroring the old changes made on wikipedia. One is Derby Dead Pool. Somehow I have my doubts of the accuracy of Derby Dead Pool over three Niemeyer biographies and a collection of memoirs which fail to make any mention of seemingly "significant" Jewish ancestry but yet make deep investigations into Niemeyer's background. The other link is a writing by an individual. Unqualified opinions are usually ignored, just like any blog and webpage is, by any good editors.
I implore everyone who's working on this page to reconsider the inclusion of Oscar Niemeyer. This is novel information and is spreading fast because of wikipedia's popularity on the internet. Faulty information being spread will add another reason why wikipedia is such a controversial place! ~69.212
Honestly, some of the "citation needed" tags on in this article are a joke. Who in Brazil doesn't know that Daniel Azulay is Jewish? Are people going to ask for citation for the claims that Albert Einstein was Jewish as well? Or perhaps do people need citations for the claims that Winston Churchill was Brittish? -- Pinnecco ( talk) 16:45, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Anyone who opposes this. Speak here and explain why. Bulldog123 19:57, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
It's been two days. No responses here except for you. I'm upmerging. Bulldog123 22:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was nominated for deletion on 18 August 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
Oscar Niemeyer: I have noted that there seem to be conflicting sources. It is of course quite possible that he is of mixed ancestry, or Jewish ancestry but converted. As always, WP:V requires us to cite what the sources say and not indulge in original research.-- Brownlee 13:29, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I have contacted them. Why does it look less than reliable? Of course, he might be both Jewish and Catholic; for example, he may be of Jewish ancestry but converted.-- Brownlee 10:41, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
What did they say? Where did they gather this information? As you well know, it's original research to assume he was both Jewish and Catholic. We can't weigh one source more highly than another. There is not list of Brazilian Catholics. Otherwise we could add him to both pending what the page-makers say. 72.144.147.245 21:06, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
We do not treat all sources of equal value unless there is a reason to. If you have contacted the website, why haven't you mentioned where they gathered their information? Perhaps their references may tell us if he, in fact, was a convert to Catholicism. Otherwise, it most definitely is original research to do assume so. 72.144.147.245 23:29, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
There is a simple way to prove that this page qualifies as an "unreliable source" and thus should not be given dominance to any other sources enough so to keep Niemeyer listed.
The following is all from WP:RS used in evaluating .
It is original research to say that this source is unreliable. Where there is a conflict of sources, we cite both sources, which I have done.-- Brownlee 11:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
That's begging the question: Is there any evidence that Jewish Brazil has no expertise regarding Jewish Brazilians? Maybe those behind the site are world authorities on Brazilian jewry; I am not saying they are, but it is OR to assume without evidence that they are not.-- Brownlee 12:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't really know the reasons of the dispute, but I cannot understand how someone wants the wikipedia editor to give sources for each people on the list! So I have to prove that one by one who is and who is not a Jew? This an absurd...the best was putting the most famous Brazilian Rabbi ever (Henry Sobel) as "unsourced". This is simply ridiculous! I will leave on the unsourced section just those who never declared theirselves as Jews or I simply never heard of. -- Dantadd 15:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I understand your point, but it's simply impossible to give sources to all tiny piece of information an encyclopedia provides. If your point of view should be applied to every single information on Wikipedia there would be more source information than information properly. So, in all articles or lists I have to give sources to the ethnicity, place and date of birth, complete name, profession and bla bla bla...?? It's insane and fallacious. -- Dantadd 14:09, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Oscar Niemeyer's Religion
To put a seal on the apparent confusion here. Oscar Niemeyer is undoubtedly without religion. Being a communist, religiouslessness isn't uncommon. Need I say MORE? So there is NO reason to put him on a list of people who attain a religion. However, Judaism apparently is seen as a race too, or something like that. The best place to find out if Niemeyer is racially would be his own memoirs. I have copied a segment of the book:
"The Curves of Time: The Memoirs of Oscar Niemeyer"
Page 6 (Bottom of Page)
"I shall start by remembering my origins. My name ought to be Oscar Ribeiro Soares or Oscar Ribeiro de Almeida de Niemeyer Soares, but the foreign name prevailed and I became known as Oscar Niemeyer. My ethnic roots are diverse, something I find particularly gratifying. Ribeiro and Soares are Portuguese names, ALmeida is Arabic, and Niemyer is German. Not to mention the blacks or Indians who, unknown to us, may also have been part of our family."
If he did have Jewish ethnic ancestry, certainly he would mention it here. He bothers to mention the possibility of African heritage but not Jewish? The question has come up that perhaps Niemeyer's family was religiously Jewish. This can be debunked here:
Page 8 (Middle of Page)
"This arbitrary attitude that my grandmother undoubtedly brought with her from her farm in Marica, and which by no means prevented her from being a top-notch housewife, manifested itself now and then in her outbursts: "Take that cloth off your head. Colored folk don't wear suck things." Even though I was only six or seven years old, the way she talked to the housemaid particularly upset me. My grandmother was religious, as was our whole family. Mass was held regularly at our house, with family members and our neighbors in attendance. On those days, she opened one of the five windows in the sitting room-its windowsill served as oratory-and recited the "Hail Mary" out loud. At times, when she was in one of her particularly insolent moods, my grandfather would say very gently, "Heave help us, that's on bossy woman." "
Now the question arises of why so many places DO call Niemeyer "Jewish." Well, it could be another case for the 'bad things about wikipedia' book. About a year ago somebody placed "Jewish Brazilian" on the header of the Oscar Niemeyer wiki article. This information has since spread to wiki mirrors and so any website that uses wiki mirrors as a source, will call Niemeyer "Jewish Brazilian" especially user-contributed and/or "game" websites like Derby Dead Pool linked by his name on this list.
The origin of this myth is probably not going to be obvious. Perhaps it began an assumptive journalist or perhaps even it began with last years wiki changes and then spread to the most easily attainable sources on Niemeyer, those on the internet.
Point is, it's probably safe to remove Niemeyer from this list, as if he doesn't mention Jewish background when talking about his own racial ancestry, we can only assume there is none. Online encyclopedias don't know more about Niemeyer than he himself does. - 69.212.
Hello. There are two defining characteristics of a Jew. To help alleviate the mess that arises here, I made allusions to a racially Jewish Niemeyer as well as a religiously Jewish Niemeyer. If he was either or, he could be considered a Jew. I began by debunking the assumption that he was religiously Jewish. Immediately afterwards, as anyone can check in the talk above, I said Jew is also a race, and that the best place to find out if he was racially Jewish is from....well himself. The following books are biographies of Oscar Niemeyer (though mostly these are about his work), the last is the above memoirs:
Oscar Niemeyer by Matthieu Salvaing Oscar Niemeyer by Stamo Papadaki Oscar Niemeyer: A Legend of Modernism by P.Andreas The Curves of Time: The Memoirs of Oscar Niemeyer by Oscar Niemeyer
All these books, easily available at any large library, fail to make any mention of Oscar Niemeyer being of Jewish dsecent, though most say he was of Portuguese and distant German descent. If his German ancestors were Jewish, why wouldn't he mention it or why wouldn't anyone in these publications mention it? He mentions African ancestors but not Jewish? If you are under the assumption that "Niemeyer" is a Jewish surname, it's not. "Niemeyer" is Northern German, typically exclusively Northern German in origin and also one of the most common surnames in that region. Otherwise, why would anyone assume they were Jewish?
The Derby Dead Pool link is user-contributed much like www.nndb.com. The term "Jewish Brazilian architect" can only be found in three places: [1]. Two are wiki mirrors mirroring the old changes made on wikipedia. One is Derby Dead Pool. Somehow I have my doubts of the accuracy of Derby Dead Pool over three Niemeyer biographies and a collection of memoirs which fail to make any mention of seemingly "significant" Jewish ancestry but yet make deep investigations into Niemeyer's background. The other link is a writing by an individual. Unqualified opinions are usually ignored, just like any blog and webpage is, by any good editors.
I implore everyone who's working on this page to reconsider the inclusion of Oscar Niemeyer. This is novel information and is spreading fast because of wikipedia's popularity on the internet. Faulty information being spread will add another reason why wikipedia is such a controversial place! ~69.212
Honestly, some of the "citation needed" tags on in this article are a joke. Who in Brazil doesn't know that Daniel Azulay is Jewish? Are people going to ask for citation for the claims that Albert Einstein was Jewish as well? Or perhaps do people need citations for the claims that Winston Churchill was Brittish? -- Pinnecco ( talk) 16:45, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Anyone who opposes this. Speak here and explain why. Bulldog123 19:57, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
It's been two days. No responses here except for you. I'm upmerging. Bulldog123 22:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)