This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
-Please check out the recommendations for the peer review above (click on "archived"). They suggest using Nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide as an example of what the article should look like.
-The article is too long and has too many references. Try to stick to recent reviews and not get bogged down in the details of every research article. The lengthy historical list is unnecessary. I propose we list only uses for lipoic acid that are in clinical trials or are approved for use instead of listing every case study.
-I suggest we don't have a section on the basic research on the function of administered lipoic acid and just stick to the established medical knowledge. What a "function" for an administered compound would be is not clear. Qchristensen ( talk) 09:23, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
The list of possible benefits should be an actual list, not a run-on sentence.
Lipoic acid has been the subject of numerous research studies and clinical trials. Lipoic acid was shown:
The tag soup makes it nearly impossible to edit, though.
References
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The use of the word "vicinal" in the second sentence of the opening paragraph is incorrect. "Vicinal" only relates heteroatoms and functional groups to one another through their positions on the carbon framework not through their own heteroatomic connections. For the two sulfur atoms to be vicinal they would have to be bound to adjacent carbons, say C7 and C8 or C6 and C7 instead of C6 and C8. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.155.222.31 ( talk) 15:58, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
This may be a serious adverse effect when used in higher dosages.
Mechanisms of antioxidant and pro-oxidant effects of -lipoic acid in the diabetic and nondiabetic kidney.
This study demonstrates that dietary supplementation with 30 mg/kg -lipoic acid for 12 weeks in rats prevents the increase in albuminuria and development of glomerulosclerosis and tubulointerstitial fibrosis associated with diabetic nephropathy. Our studies indicate that one of the mechanisms by which -lipoic acid exerts this renoprotective effect in rats is via decreasing oxidative stress, specifically, by reducing NADPH-induced generation of O-2 and regulating the expression of NADPH oxidase subunits. Most interestingly, our study shows that the dietary supplementation with the same dose of -lipoic acid is associated with a decline in renal function and development of glomerulosclerosis and tubulointerstitial fibrosis in the nondiabetic kidney in rats. Thus, these findings indicate that, although -lipoic acid is renoprotective in diabetic nephropathy in rats, it has detrimental effects to the healthy kidney in rats. Ref Article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.9.222.194 ( talk) 16:04, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
It is quite possible that the author has a bias. I do not have the technical background to confirm. In the Effects section, the article references Alpha lipoic Acid for symptomatic peripheral neuropathy in patients with diabetes: a meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials
. The reference's abstract says: It is unclear if the significant improvements seen after 3–5 weeks of oral administration at a dosage of >600 mg/day are clinically relevant.
. The author summarizes the article as: There is no corresponding clinical benefit taking it by mouth.
.
Zad
68
04:09, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Zad
68
04:37, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
It looks like Khimaris has proposed language in an edit that might stick, to resolve this specific content dispute over LA in dementia. I would like to suggest that this section be closed and if there are remaining issues with this content, other bits, or the article in general, that they be re-opened under new sections. Starting out with accusations of bias is no way to productively work toward WP:CONSENSUS, which we all know is the foundation of WP. Jytdog ( talk) 08:39, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
just want to note that this article is a mess. way too technical in some aspects and not enough plain english. lots of content in the lead that is not in the body. am working on cleaning it up... Jytdog ( talk) 07:03, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
“Lipoic acid is cofactor for at least five enzyme systems. Two of these are in the citric acid cycle through which many organisms turn nutrients into energy.”
The mentioning that alpha lipoic acid is not one of the required nutrients seems to be written to specifically imply that it may not be of use or necessary for regular metabolic function but then the above quoted is completely the opposite.
I agree this is ALA page is a mess and gets lost in too many side notes and not enough on the proven benefits. After reading it, you leave with more questions and a sense that this reference is inadequate and should not be given as a reference to those inquiring on the subject.
Btw, does it cross the blood brain barrier? Does it detox heavy metals? These are not mentioned. This tells me this reference is just incomplete and written from dismissive or unintended but ignorant perspective rather that a full spectrum of a scientific educated knowledge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.88.222.106 ( talk) 21:03, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
There are major factual problems with this section. The section describes non-mitochonrial things. The mitochondria doesn't have an acetoin dehydrogenase, for example. I'll clean up this section a bit Qchristensen ( talk) 07:26, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
I took out the paragraph on the phenomenon of decreasing lipoic acid levels in sick patients. The references were not reputable (were very old and in obscure journals) and the research yielded no clear conclusions for this article. Qchristensen ( talk) 10:07, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Hello, I added PUBMED 9607614 - ALA in liver metabolism & disease. It seems there was some severe amputation of this article over years(?) and just about anything related to anything beneficial about this topic has been cut out. All the cites are right here ^^ some need to be returned x1987x( talk) 05:38, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
"should reflect actual use, not research" Why? There are Dozens of wiki articles of substances that are scientifically studied, researched and demonstrated in scientific literature. As is the case with Julone and cancer and there is a whole page for substances being “studied” on wiki for Favipiravir. Are only pharmaceuticals approved for posting the “research” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Favipiravir
Sure, mentioning that people have studied it for use in liver metabolism and disease is valid. However, most of these ideas have very little support and so are only ideas. Qchristensen ( talk) 14:29, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Cyberbot II has detected links on Lipoic acid which have been added to the blacklist, either globally or locally. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed or are highly inappropriate for Wikipedia. The addition will be logged at one of these locations: local or global If you believe the specific link should be exempt from the blacklist, you may request that it is white-listed. Alternatively, you may request that the link is removed from or altered on the blacklist locally or globally. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. Please do not remove the tag until the issue is resolved. You may set the invisible parameter to "true" whilst requests to white-list are being processed. Should you require any help with this process, please ask at the help desk.
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The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Lipoic acid/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
<<Very large doses of 6,8-dithiooctanoic acid are themselves toxic. The lowest reported dosage to exhibit toxic side-effects (TDLo) was 0.83 mg/kg (total dose less than 1/20 gram). The oral LD50 for experimental rodents was found to be between 500 and 1000 mg/kg.>> A citation here is very important. What are the toxic side effects noted? It is somewhat misleading to change the naming of the compound - most readers will not recognize that lipoic acid and 6,8-dithiooctanoic acid are synonomous. Thus there is a problem with objectivity here. People should be furnished with the best information to allow themselves to make their own informed risk-benefit decisions, and especially choose the dose which offers the best benefit/risk, if they choose to use supplements. Please note for instance: Jarrow sells ALA with recommended dose 100 mg, which for an 'average' person is ~2 mg/kg - above the toxic side effect dose (0.83 mg/kg) noted here. Aranck 14:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 14:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 22:05, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
I removed the additional verification tag from March 2014. Scanning through the article there were only several citation needed tags which were for minor statements such as labeling in Japan. The majority of the sources are from peer reviewed journals so while I have not seen the prior edits of the page from 2014 when the original tag was placed, the current edit does not in my opinion require the additional verification box.
If other editors think additional verifications are needed, can you please address these individually in the talk page as at this point, I believe while certain specific points or claims might need additional verification, overall the article does not require the warning box. Eframgoldberg ( talk) 19:13, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
User:Fortibus please explain why you added content based on a 5 year old source and 4 year old source, trying to write more positive content than the more recent alllows, in this diff. This is continuing the discussion we started at your Talk page here Jytdog ( talk) 19:47, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
The article only mentions ALA as a treatment for MS refering an older publication from 2008. There are new results as https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/study/NCT01188811?sect=X4301256 and http://www.neurologyadvisor.com/aan-2016-coverage/potential-treatment-benefit-of-lipoic-acid-in-ms/article/490542/. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.57.40.156 ( talk) 14:13, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
what is it used for 47.155.97.10 ( talk) 06:46, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
Nobody figured out that the Quick facts templates, displayed in Android Dark mode, are unreadable at white type on a light yellow background ? ! SalineBrain ( talk) 20:19, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
This costs about US$20 for 240 600 mg capsules OTC. If the recommendation for use in obesity treatment is under 600mg per day, this would suggest an annual cost of about US$30. I am not sure how this is considered too expensive. DavidFarmbrough ( talk) 14:59, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
There are two case reports of fatal outcome following ingestion of 6000 mg of lipoic acid. These sources are not secondary, so I'll try to look up in some books/reviews. -- CopperKettle ( talk) 10:28, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
Hi! I came across a rare mitochondrial disease, caused by mutations affecting the MECR gene, and judging by case reports, lipoic acid may prevent deterioration of vision in patients. Very interesting, but I guess some secondary source would be needed to mention this in the article. Cheers from Yekaterinburg, -- CopperKettle ( talk) 10:12, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
-Please check out the recommendations for the peer review above (click on "archived"). They suggest using Nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide as an example of what the article should look like.
-The article is too long and has too many references. Try to stick to recent reviews and not get bogged down in the details of every research article. The lengthy historical list is unnecessary. I propose we list only uses for lipoic acid that are in clinical trials or are approved for use instead of listing every case study.
-I suggest we don't have a section on the basic research on the function of administered lipoic acid and just stick to the established medical knowledge. What a "function" for an administered compound would be is not clear. Qchristensen ( talk) 09:23, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
The list of possible benefits should be an actual list, not a run-on sentence.
Lipoic acid has been the subject of numerous research studies and clinical trials. Lipoic acid was shown:
The tag soup makes it nearly impossible to edit, though.
References
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The use of the word "vicinal" in the second sentence of the opening paragraph is incorrect. "Vicinal" only relates heteroatoms and functional groups to one another through their positions on the carbon framework not through their own heteroatomic connections. For the two sulfur atoms to be vicinal they would have to be bound to adjacent carbons, say C7 and C8 or C6 and C7 instead of C6 and C8. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.155.222.31 ( talk) 15:58, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
This may be a serious adverse effect when used in higher dosages.
Mechanisms of antioxidant and pro-oxidant effects of -lipoic acid in the diabetic and nondiabetic kidney.
This study demonstrates that dietary supplementation with 30 mg/kg -lipoic acid for 12 weeks in rats prevents the increase in albuminuria and development of glomerulosclerosis and tubulointerstitial fibrosis associated with diabetic nephropathy. Our studies indicate that one of the mechanisms by which -lipoic acid exerts this renoprotective effect in rats is via decreasing oxidative stress, specifically, by reducing NADPH-induced generation of O-2 and regulating the expression of NADPH oxidase subunits. Most interestingly, our study shows that the dietary supplementation with the same dose of -lipoic acid is associated with a decline in renal function and development of glomerulosclerosis and tubulointerstitial fibrosis in the nondiabetic kidney in rats. Thus, these findings indicate that, although -lipoic acid is renoprotective in diabetic nephropathy in rats, it has detrimental effects to the healthy kidney in rats. Ref Article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.9.222.194 ( talk) 16:04, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
It is quite possible that the author has a bias. I do not have the technical background to confirm. In the Effects section, the article references Alpha lipoic Acid for symptomatic peripheral neuropathy in patients with diabetes: a meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials
. The reference's abstract says: It is unclear if the significant improvements seen after 3–5 weeks of oral administration at a dosage of >600 mg/day are clinically relevant.
. The author summarizes the article as: There is no corresponding clinical benefit taking it by mouth.
.
Zad
68
04:09, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Zad
68
04:37, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
It looks like Khimaris has proposed language in an edit that might stick, to resolve this specific content dispute over LA in dementia. I would like to suggest that this section be closed and if there are remaining issues with this content, other bits, or the article in general, that they be re-opened under new sections. Starting out with accusations of bias is no way to productively work toward WP:CONSENSUS, which we all know is the foundation of WP. Jytdog ( talk) 08:39, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
just want to note that this article is a mess. way too technical in some aspects and not enough plain english. lots of content in the lead that is not in the body. am working on cleaning it up... Jytdog ( talk) 07:03, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
“Lipoic acid is cofactor for at least five enzyme systems. Two of these are in the citric acid cycle through which many organisms turn nutrients into energy.”
The mentioning that alpha lipoic acid is not one of the required nutrients seems to be written to specifically imply that it may not be of use or necessary for regular metabolic function but then the above quoted is completely the opposite.
I agree this is ALA page is a mess and gets lost in too many side notes and not enough on the proven benefits. After reading it, you leave with more questions and a sense that this reference is inadequate and should not be given as a reference to those inquiring on the subject.
Btw, does it cross the blood brain barrier? Does it detox heavy metals? These are not mentioned. This tells me this reference is just incomplete and written from dismissive or unintended but ignorant perspective rather that a full spectrum of a scientific educated knowledge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.88.222.106 ( talk) 21:03, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
There are major factual problems with this section. The section describes non-mitochonrial things. The mitochondria doesn't have an acetoin dehydrogenase, for example. I'll clean up this section a bit Qchristensen ( talk) 07:26, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
I took out the paragraph on the phenomenon of decreasing lipoic acid levels in sick patients. The references were not reputable (were very old and in obscure journals) and the research yielded no clear conclusions for this article. Qchristensen ( talk) 10:07, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Hello, I added PUBMED 9607614 - ALA in liver metabolism & disease. It seems there was some severe amputation of this article over years(?) and just about anything related to anything beneficial about this topic has been cut out. All the cites are right here ^^ some need to be returned x1987x( talk) 05:38, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
"should reflect actual use, not research" Why? There are Dozens of wiki articles of substances that are scientifically studied, researched and demonstrated in scientific literature. As is the case with Julone and cancer and there is a whole page for substances being “studied” on wiki for Favipiravir. Are only pharmaceuticals approved for posting the “research” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Favipiravir
Sure, mentioning that people have studied it for use in liver metabolism and disease is valid. However, most of these ideas have very little support and so are only ideas. Qchristensen ( talk) 14:29, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
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The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Lipoic acid/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
<<Very large doses of 6,8-dithiooctanoic acid are themselves toxic. The lowest reported dosage to exhibit toxic side-effects (TDLo) was 0.83 mg/kg (total dose less than 1/20 gram). The oral LD50 for experimental rodents was found to be between 500 and 1000 mg/kg.>> A citation here is very important. What are the toxic side effects noted? It is somewhat misleading to change the naming of the compound - most readers will not recognize that lipoic acid and 6,8-dithiooctanoic acid are synonomous. Thus there is a problem with objectivity here. People should be furnished with the best information to allow themselves to make their own informed risk-benefit decisions, and especially choose the dose which offers the best benefit/risk, if they choose to use supplements. Please note for instance: Jarrow sells ALA with recommended dose 100 mg, which for an 'average' person is ~2 mg/kg - above the toxic side effect dose (0.83 mg/kg) noted here. Aranck 14:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 14:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 22:05, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
I removed the additional verification tag from March 2014. Scanning through the article there were only several citation needed tags which were for minor statements such as labeling in Japan. The majority of the sources are from peer reviewed journals so while I have not seen the prior edits of the page from 2014 when the original tag was placed, the current edit does not in my opinion require the additional verification box.
If other editors think additional verifications are needed, can you please address these individually in the talk page as at this point, I believe while certain specific points or claims might need additional verification, overall the article does not require the warning box. Eframgoldberg ( talk) 19:13, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
User:Fortibus please explain why you added content based on a 5 year old source and 4 year old source, trying to write more positive content than the more recent alllows, in this diff. This is continuing the discussion we started at your Talk page here Jytdog ( talk) 19:47, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
The article only mentions ALA as a treatment for MS refering an older publication from 2008. There are new results as https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/study/NCT01188811?sect=X4301256 and http://www.neurologyadvisor.com/aan-2016-coverage/potential-treatment-benefit-of-lipoic-acid-in-ms/article/490542/. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.57.40.156 ( talk) 14:13, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
what is it used for 47.155.97.10 ( talk) 06:46, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
Nobody figured out that the Quick facts templates, displayed in Android Dark mode, are unreadable at white type on a light yellow background ? ! SalineBrain ( talk) 20:19, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
This costs about US$20 for 240 600 mg capsules OTC. If the recommendation for use in obesity treatment is under 600mg per day, this would suggest an annual cost of about US$30. I am not sure how this is considered too expensive. DavidFarmbrough ( talk) 14:59, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
There are two case reports of fatal outcome following ingestion of 6000 mg of lipoic acid. These sources are not secondary, so I'll try to look up in some books/reviews. -- CopperKettle ( talk) 10:28, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
Hi! I came across a rare mitochondrial disease, caused by mutations affecting the MECR gene, and judging by case reports, lipoic acid may prevent deterioration of vision in patients. Very interesting, but I guess some secondary source would be needed to mention this in the article. Cheers from Yekaterinburg, -- CopperKettle ( talk) 10:12, 17 April 2023 (UTC)