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Would it be possible to get the first 23 sections of this talk page archived? Unless anyone objects? I just found that the bot that started archiving here is no longer active. Who knows how to trigger its replacement, lowercase sigmabot III ?? -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 07:01, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
The actual species of the Gaetulian lion is lost to history. It is noted in Greek and Roman classic texts based on where it is was captured rather than a species classification. We might reasonably speculate it is the Barbary lion due to the range location near the Roman Empire, but there are no sources. I would say it is unrelated to the rest more of a literary history article. -- Green C 23:50, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
A page titled Lion taxonomy is still my favourite, with info only about the historic purported subspecies that were described, in a list, not a table, without pics or at most a few old ones, but just who described when and on which basis. This info can be shifted there from the pages on Barbary, West African, Central African, etc. pages; and also include info about phylogeographic studies that are now repeated over and over again in the individual pages, but are surely worth being referenced. -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 00:39, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
American lion should be kept as a stand alone article, though the article itself needs updating to reflect it being currently treated as Panthera atrox, rather then Panthera leo atrox.-- Kev min § 03:41, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
As I have said elsewhere, I do not desire to have articles for every described subspecies, but to keep the articles only for the regional populations, aside from the main article and those on prehistoric forms, and I agree with BhagyaMani about Panthera leo leo and Panthera leo melanochaita being stubs with links to existing articles, or if necessary, shifting them to a new page under the heading 'taxonomy', and keeping that as perhaps a merger of Panthera leo leo and Panthera leo melanochaita, but as BhagyaMani said earlier, there is relevant material about lions that wouldn't fit under the heading 'Taxonomy' or 'Phylogeography', so for such material, I would prefer to keep it in the articles of the regional populations. Leo1pard ( talk) 04:40, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
African lion (partly to include information that can't be easily accommodated in articles of the subpopulations of lions in Africa: Barbary lion, Cape lion, Central African lion, East African lion, West African lion, and Southern African lion, and to make it clear what the different clades are for example), Asiatic lion, and History of lions in Europe, aside from articles on prehistoric relatives like Panthera shawi and Panthera spelaea, and to keep relevant information about lions which doesn't fit under the heading "taxonomy" or "phylogeography"; there is far more to lions that has been studied than just taxonomy or phylogeography, or may be studied in the future to the extent that keeping them all in one place would be pointless, like BhagyaMani said. Leo1pard ( talk) 18:09, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
(Only reordered sequence of replies to Cas Liber's question re separate pages chronologically. -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 22:26, 15 October 2018 (UTC))
Okay, what about northern lion and Panthera leo leo - these seem synonymous to me and should be merged. Furthermore, looking online, the evidence for this being a common name assigned to this subspecies is tenuous (although logical) Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 14:19, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
I might be a little late to this discussion, but my thoughts are as follows: Leave Panthera spelaea and Panthera atrox out of it. Those aren't commonly considered lion subspecies, and they are more relevant to paleontology than lion taxonomy. On the proliferation of subpages: keep Asiatic lion, it is a stable and well-done page about a topic of some notability. And not everyone agrees that the Asiatic lion is the same subspecies as African lions, rather than its own subspecies. Also, merge some of those pages into the appropriate subspecies article, those being P. l. leo and P. l. melanochaita. Cape lion might need to stay (it has some notability from what I can tell). Gaetulian lion is a historical/legendary creature; the info on that page is distinctly different from the more biology-focused subspecies & populations pages. As for the rest, merge into the two subspecies pages and note the mixed population on the main Lion page. The current variety of pages about lions is confusing, to say the least. And for editors: please peacefully resolve your issues with each other. I am not interested in edit warring, or in getting involved in a massive argument, but I am interested in keeping the myriad Felid-related articles organized and properly categorized.-- SilverTiger12 ( talk) 19:27, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Right, there has been some discussion at Talk:Panthera_leo_leo#Merge? and sections below it over what and how lion taxonomy is discussed on wikipedia. Right now we have:
We also have:
Note that we do not have a Taxonomy of lions or Lion conservation page.
Please, can as many folks as possible look over the pages involved and give opinions below onto which pages should be separate or upmerged or split or rearranged? Some options include moving all material into a Taxonomy of lions page, plus just the two subspecies. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 23:21, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
References
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Jts1882 Once again, BhagyaMani is showing disregard for discussions. For a long time now, there has been discussion regarding what BhagyaMani does, and it was repeatedly said in there that Central African lion clade should be an article, and Central African lion redirected to another larger article with WP:reliable sources that cover subjects like that population of lions, and this was agreed between us, particularly after BhagyaMani got into arguments with Punetor i Rregullt5, which I said could have been avoided if BhagyaMani didn't turn Central African lion back into an article. Then, after I did the agreed changes, partly to stop any more arguments on that, and talked to them about it here, BhagyaMani once again showed disregard for discussions, by turning Central African lion back into an article, and Central African lion clade back into a stub, accusing me of edit-warring, when in fact I was doing something that was agreed in a discussion, and these comments of his which have similarities ( [3] [4] [5] [6]) show that he doesn't want to be corrected on anything that he does, even if he has made edits which show disregard for what is in reliable sources, and I see that he wants to distract people from issues that he's responsible for, by making claims here and there about certain things which ignore the issues at large, such as accusing me of an "edit war" after I made an agreed change which he knows has been discussed for a long time. Central African lion (which was meant about lions in Central Africa in general, not any specific clade in Central Africa) is not supposed to be an article, but Central African lion clade is supposed to be an article about the 'Central' clade defined by Bertola et al. in northern Central Africa and East Africa, and Casliber, I am not Punetor, otherwise certain disagreements that occurred between us shouldn't have happened. I only met Punetor this year, as far as I can remember. Leo1pard ( talk) 06:29, 6 November 2018 (UTC); edited 07:39, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
Right, the unique encyclopedic information of Mixed lion populations could surely be condensed to a few sentences at most and merged to lion Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 01:16, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
In the 19th century, a number of subspecies were described for lions in Northeast Africa. For example, zoological specimens from Nubia and Somalia were described or proposed by zoologists under the trinomina Felis leo nubicus [1] and Felis leo somaliensis. [2] In later centuries, these trinomina were alternatively considered to be synonymous with the scientific names of the North [3] [4] and East African lions. [5] [6] A test done in 2012 on 15 lions at Addis Ababa Zoo and lions from 6 wild populations demonstrated that the captive lions were genetically different to wild lions in other parts of East Africa, but similar to wild lions from Cameroon and Chad. [7] [8] Among six samples from captive lions which were of Ethiopian origin, five samples clustered with other East African samples, but one clustered with Sahelian samples. [9] ... Lions of northern Uganda have not been analysed genetically, [10] and might belong to the Northern subspecies. In northern Uganda, lions are present in Kidepo Valley and Murchison Falls National Parks. [11] [12] The Central African lion [13] is a population of lions in Central Africa that has been grouped under the northern subspecies (Panthera leo leo), but was also found to be related to the southern subspecies [14] [10] (Panthera leo melanochaita), [15] [16] depending on the subpopulation, and is fragmented into small and isolated groups since the 1950s. [17] [11] ... Its hair samples were collected for phylogenetic analysis by Barnett et al., and compared with tissue samples of lions from Gabon and the Republic of the Congo that were killed in the 20th century. Results indicate that this individual, besides extinct lions in Odzala-Kokoua National Park in the Republic of the Congo, is closely related to the ancestral lion population of the area, and that its DNA shows a typical Southern lion haplotype. It is considered possible that this lion dispersed to the area from Namibia or Botswana. [14] A phylogeographical analysis conducted by Bertola et al. depicted a number of lions in places adjacent to East and Southern Africa as belonging to the southern group, with others in Central Africa belonging to the northern group. In particular, the northern part of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, which is adjacent to the East African country of Uganda, the Central African Republic and South Sudan, is believed to have both genetic groups. [10]
Discussing information like this in any of the pre-existing discussions from the 6th of November has just made one more complicated, because of things like this, the pre-existing discussions haven't been solved, even though it is over a week since they were started, and they got more complicated as more people come in to say more things, which were not relevant to the discussions when they were created on the 6th of November. Before things get any more complicated, particularly in the discussions that were opened on the 6th of November, due to the haste in making discussions on articles that were not originally discussed there, based on the false premise that sorting things out would be simple, these new discussions on the genetically complicated lions must close, and the focus should now be on finishing what was initially under discussion. Leo1pard ( talk) 15:25, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Oppose, We create articles on Wikipedia, so different people who need information can read them, we shouldn't summarised a paragraph so detailed in few concise just because you want. People who read Wikipedia need much more informations than that paragraph that you want to summarise just with few sentence. — Punëtor i Rregullt5 { talk} 05:49, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Comment, I would have wished that the initial discussions ( Talk:Panthera leo melanochaita#Merger proposal and Talk:Northern lion#Merger proposal) from the 6th of November should have finished first, without attention drifting towards other articles, and though I warned ( [7] [8]) that focusing on other articles would lead to complications, it was not heeded, and those discussions became focused on other articles that I wished should not be part of them, and new discussions have been opened up regarding them, so close to 2 weeks after those initial discussions started, they are not closed, and have become more complicated over time, with more people making more comments that were not initially relevant to the discussions, and mixing what was in the newer discussions with these older discussions. Leo1pard ( talk) 07:55, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
References
Haas_al2005
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Kingdonetal.2013
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).The Addis Ababa zoo lions have dark manes and small bodies, unlike other African lions. But life in captivity can sometimes influence appearance. A team of researchers, led by the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Germany and the University of York in the UK, checked to see if the lions really are different by comparing DNA samples of 15 lions from the zoo to six populations of wild lions. Their genetic analysis revealed that the gene sequence of all fifteen lions were unique and showed little sign of inbreeding. The study was recently published in the European Journal of Wildlife Research.
Bruche_al2012
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Bertola_al2016
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Bauer_vanderMerwe
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Barnett_al2018_Origin
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Catsg2017
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help page).iucn
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At present, there are more than 150 redirects to lion main and subpages, many of them with broken links; including 48 to lion, 29 to Asiatic lion, 29 to East African lion, 12 to Southern African lion, 11 to Barbary lion, 7 to West African lion, 6 to Central African lion, 4 to Cape lion, 4 to Panthera leo leo, and another 4 to Panthera leo melanochaita. Imo: quite a mess, and the vast majority superfluous. -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 11:26, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
Please see this. I remembered this after a long time. Leo1pard ( talk) 06:12, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
The following table is hopefully useful to provide a prelim overview on the discussion. In case, I added any of your names into the wrong column, please delete and add it to the correct column. – BhagyaMani ( talk) 10:36, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Additionally, I ping other contributors of lion main page @ LittleJerry, Cygnis insignis, Materialscientist, Alphard08, Greedo8, Apokryltaros, and Axl: please add your names into table columns. -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 10:54, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Moved comment by User:Leo1pard re 'Northern lion' (because of "Northern lion" being more common than previously thought, but only relevant content from Central African lion!) [1] and re Panthera leo melanochaita (I see the likelihood of these becoming more common) [1] out of the table. Please just add or delete your names and add comments below the table, if you deem commenting necessary. Thank you! -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 13:41, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
References
I just discovered another WP:REDUNDANTFORK : History of lions in Mesopotamia. -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 16:13, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
@ BhagyaMani, Cygnis insignis, and SilverTiger12: Can I ask why you have decided to make more discussions already, considering that the old issues haven't been resolved yet? How many discussions have to happen at once, in this month? Leo1pard ( talk) 17:02, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
@ BhagyaMani and SilverTiger12: Stop. SMcCandlish had earlier complained "This was a real headache of a set of discussions to wade through and absorb", and I earlier said that things were getting out of hand as more and more discussions were being made, but you're still keen on making or having newer discussions? Leo1pard ( talk) 17:12, 26 November 2018 (UTC); edited 17:27, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
@ BhagyaMani and SilverTiger12: I am not alone in being frustrated over this jungle of discussions, look above. How many times do I have to warn against making more and more discussions, which people may find frustrating? I knew ( [11] [12]) that things would get more complicated if more of this happened, the old issues are still not resolved. Leo1pard ( talk) 18:11, 26 November 2018 (UTC); edited 18:14, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
See WP:TALKFORK. Spawning more and more redundant proposals thwarts actual consensus-building. PS: I propose a new merge: just put all felid content at Kittehs. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:12, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
@ BhagyaMani and SilverTiger12: Stop persisting in the new discussions. The older issues have not been resolved, and you have helped to make a jungle of discussions which people like myself were not keen on in the first place ( [13] [14]). You can't say that you respect your friend's earlier efforts if you keep on making discussions after discussions about what you WP:like or not. As it is, people outside Wikipedia don't always have the same attitude as you, but they are interested in things that I have done here. Want proof? Leo1pard ( talk) 03:03, 27 November 2018 (UTC); edited 08:15, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
BhagyaMani I asked you a question. Do you want proof of people having similar views as mine about what is what? Leo1pard ( talk) 08:15, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
{{
hat}}
them, with {{
Moved discussion to}}
pointers back to the main thread on it. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 01:14, 28 November 2018 (UTC)Before we start with any merging, there are a few steps we should agree upon, imo: like 1) ask someone neutral, i.e. someone who did not yet contribute, to conclude the discussion; perhaps Softlavender or PRehse ? And then 2) agree on an entry point for the mergers. For this, I propose this revision of Panthera leo leo and this revision of Panthera leo melanochaita. Or should we wait a few more days / weeks so that some invitees still get a chance to vote? I'm not in a hurry. Who is? -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 13:40, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
A list of various redirects to the various lion pages.
Redirects to | keep | delete |
---|---|---|
Lion: | African lion, African Lion, African lions, Felis leo, King of Beasts, Lions, P. leo, Panthera Leo, Panthera leo, Southeast African lion, Taxonomy of lions | Kali (lion), Nakawa (lion), Notch (lion), Addis Ababa lion, Addis Abeba lion, Congo lion, Congo Lion, Lady Liuwa, Lionesses, Middle African lion, North East Congo lion, Northeast Congo lion, Northeast Congolese lion, Nubian lion, Panthera leo abyssinica, A random emoji-thing I can't insert here, Lions in Africa, Sub-Saharan African lion, Hunting behavior of lions, Lion attack, Man-eating lions, Lion mane, Mane (lion), Mane of a lion, Lion (animal), Lions in Ethiopia (broken), Lion cub, Lion penis (entirely inappropriate), Lion's penis (also inappropriate), Lions mating, Mating lions, Reproductive behavior of lions, Sexual behavior of lions, East-Central African lion (broken), East-Southern African lion (broken), Eastern-Southern African lion, Lennox Anderson |
Asiatic lion: | Asian lion, Gir lion, Gir Lion, Asian Lion, Asiatic lions, Asiatic Lion, Asiatic Lions, Indian Lion, Indian lion, Indian Lions, Panthera leo asiaticus?, Panthera leo persica, Panthera leo goojratensis? | Anatolian lion, Arabian lion, Assyrian lion, Asiatic lion mane, Bengal lion, Eurasian lion, Iraqi lion, Lions of the Near East, Syrian lion, Persian lion, Persian Lion, Melanistic Asiatic lion, Lion manes (broken), Exceptionally sized lions, Felis leo bengalensis, P. leo persica Mesopotamian lion, Panthera leo mesopotamica : or redirect to Cultural depictions of lions? |
Barbary lion: | Atlas lion, North African lion | Algerian lion, Atlas Lion, Barbary Lion, Berber lion, Egyptian lion, Mauretanian lion, North African Lion, Northern African lion, Numidian lion |
Cape lion: | Cape Lion?, Panthera leo capensis? | Cape lions, Panthera leo melanochaitus |
Panthera leo leo: | Panthera leo nubica | Panthera leo nubicus, Central-West African lion, Sudan lion |
Panthera leo melanochaita: | Southern lion? | Southwest African lion, Transvaal lion, Tsavo Lion |
West African lion: | Panthera leo gambianus, Panthera leo senegalensis | West African Lion, West-Central African lion, Western African lion, Senegal lion, Gambian lion |
Central African lion: | Panthera leo kamptzi, Panthera leo azandica | Central lion, Cameroon lion, Congolese lion, Panthera leo azandicus |
Northern lion: | Panthera leo nobilis | |
East African lion: | Serengeti lion, Masai lion, Panthera leo roosevelti, Panthera leo somaliensis, | Eastern African lion, Hollister's lion, Kenyan lion, Kilimanjaro lion, Lake Victoria lion, Northern Lake Victoria lion, Lions in Tsavo, Lions of Tsavo, Tsavo lion, Tsavo lions, Masai Lion, Masai lions, Somali lion, Somalian lion, Somaliland lion, Sotik lion, Uganda lion, Ugandan lion Panthera leo hollisteri, Panthera leo massaica, Panthera leo massaicus, Panthera leo nyanzae, Felis leo roosevelti, Panthera leo sabakiensis, Panthera leo webbiensis |
Southern African lion: | Panthera leo bleyenberghi, Panthera leo krugeri, Kalahari lion | Angolan lion, Katanga lion, Kruger lion, Lobengula (lion), South African lion, Southwest African Lion, Transvaal Lion, Zimbabwean lion Panthera leo vernayi |
Mixed lion populations | Panthera leo leo × Panthera leo melanochaita, Panthera leo leo and Panthera leo melanochaita, Northeast African lion, Abyssinian lion |
More to come...-- SilverTiger12 ( talk) 16:36, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
If anyone would like to contest the status of a redirect, please comment BELOW. Please do no edit the table. I will continue working on the table, and attempting to submit a change only to have it wiped away due to an edit conflict is highly frustrating. Thank very much.-- SilverTiger12 ( talk) 17:40, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
@ BhagyaMani and SilverTiger12: There is growing frustration over this plethora of discussions, so you're not "clearing the jungle", you're making things worse. Please respect that. Leo1pard ( talk) 18:09, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
Just found and added 4 more superfluous pages created by the two main redirecters. -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 22:12, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
![]() | Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org. |
Punëtor i Rregullt5 {talk} 16:12, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Care should be taken as to which lions are in regions where the northern ( Panthera leo leo) and southern ( Panthera leo melanochaita) subspecies either overlap or co-occur, particularly for the Ethiopian lion (formerly P. l. abyssinica or P. l. roosevelti). Due to its genetic make-up, the Ethiopian lion has become WP:notable amongst the populations, at least since 2012. Much has been written about it, since Bruche et al. discovered that they were genetically different from other populations in East Africa, and finally, the Cat Specialist Group had a note about this, saying that their country was a contact zone between the two subspecies, based on the work of Bertola et al., which depicts Ethiopia as one of the places where genetic admixture is likely, not the only one, and yes, people are interested in stuff like that, not just scientific names that reflect a recent revision of subspecies, look how much has been written about Ethiopian lions since the genetic test in 2012, for example ( [25] [26] [27] [28] [29]). In addition, "northern lion" and "northern subspecies" were not used by only one author, meaning people outside Wikipedia are interested in exactly which lion is which, as it is with tigers. Leo1pard ( talk) 06:17, 2 December 2018 (UTC); edited 06:28, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
The evolution sections currently states that Panthera spelaea derived about 300,000 years ago. Then, in the extinct species section it states that P. atrox derived from P. spelaea 340,000 years ago. LittleJerry ( talk) 21:53, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
Aside from the issue of certain lions in Central Africa, particularly Congo-Kinshasa, being shown by genetic analyses, including that of Bertola et al., to belong to the " southern subspecies or group (P. l. melanochaita), the use of 'northern' and 'southern' to describe the subspecies has extended to beyond the sources used in the articles, which made use of Bertola's results, like this. Leo1pard ( talk) 04:44, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
As has been mentioned elsewhere, treating the Upper Pleistocene Eurasian cave lion (Panthera leo spelaea or P. spelaea) as a different species to P. leo must come with doing something similar for the Early Middle Pleistocene Eurasian cave lion (P. l. fossilis, P. fossilis or P. spelaea fossilis), since the latter is believed to be an ancestor to the former. Leo1pard ( talk) 15:47, 25 January 2019 (UTC); edited 15:48, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
I try to find the sources where lions are called king or lord. The earliest sources I found so far is The Fables of Æsop.
-- mingwangx ( talk) 15:07, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
LittleJerry Just as the fact that a number of WP:RS's state that the Siberian tiger is the biggest tiger or cat doesn't mean that we should say it just like that, because it contradicts what reliable sources about wild lions and tigers say, that for instance the Bengal tiger has heavier average weights in the wild than the Amur tiger, we must exercise caution when dealing with sources giving different statements about the weights of lions, otherwise, what you did would be akin to changing the statement "the Siberian tiger is often considered to be the biggest tiger or felid" to "the Siberian tiger is the biggest tiger or felid", which is WP:Bias, and the talk-page for the tiger has had a similar discussion already. Leo1pard ( talk) 05:51, 16 August 2019 (UTC); edited 05:51, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
Is it possible to add, is there any information to be found, about the number of male lions <> female lions in nature? I've seen a National Geographic documentary about the lion (Lion Ranger - Trouble in the Pride - s01e01) where they say there are significantly more male than female lions. It would be interesting if this ratio is provided for the species. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.118.94.49 ( talk) 20:28, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Hello LittleJerry,
I won't dispute that cluttering a featured article with too many pictures is not a good thing ( = your revert of my proposal).
However, I can't help regretting that, in a chapter dealing with Hunting and diet, we don't have a series of pictures describing a typical hunting sequence, complete with the initial stalking and the final dragging of the prey to store it away from vultures and hyenas.
Now, we do have such a series of pictures, as shown in the French article. I am aware that it might mean moving away some of the existing photographs; but then, some of them (such as the one showing the lion's teeth) could quite well illustrate a different chapter, as they are not specific to hunting.
Well, I won't fight over that, anyway: it's up to you. Just a regret... Azurfrog ( talk) 11:54, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
Since the article is over 144,000 bytes, I think new edits should be monitored and any new information added should be discussed here first. LittleJerry ( talk) 00:24, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
In the lead it states that "In the Pleistocene, the lion ranged throughout Eurasia, Africa and North America, but today it has been reduced to fragmented populations in Sub-Saharan Africa and one critically endangered population in western India." This is misleading, while Eurasian cave hyena are deeply nested within living african spotted hyenas, the Eurasian and American lions belong to an entirely separate lineage that split from living lions around 1.9 million years ago (i.e. species level split), and was present in Eurasia by 600,000 years ago [30]. The expansion of living lions out of Africa also happened relatively recently, around 21,000 years ago during the terminal Pleistocene [31] I'm not sure how this could elegantly worked into the lead though. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 18:42, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
Would it be possible to get the first 23 sections of this talk page archived? Unless anyone objects? I just found that the bot that started archiving here is no longer active. Who knows how to trigger its replacement, lowercase sigmabot III ?? -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 07:01, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
The actual species of the Gaetulian lion is lost to history. It is noted in Greek and Roman classic texts based on where it is was captured rather than a species classification. We might reasonably speculate it is the Barbary lion due to the range location near the Roman Empire, but there are no sources. I would say it is unrelated to the rest more of a literary history article. -- Green C 23:50, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
A page titled Lion taxonomy is still my favourite, with info only about the historic purported subspecies that were described, in a list, not a table, without pics or at most a few old ones, but just who described when and on which basis. This info can be shifted there from the pages on Barbary, West African, Central African, etc. pages; and also include info about phylogeographic studies that are now repeated over and over again in the individual pages, but are surely worth being referenced. -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 00:39, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
American lion should be kept as a stand alone article, though the article itself needs updating to reflect it being currently treated as Panthera atrox, rather then Panthera leo atrox.-- Kev min § 03:41, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
As I have said elsewhere, I do not desire to have articles for every described subspecies, but to keep the articles only for the regional populations, aside from the main article and those on prehistoric forms, and I agree with BhagyaMani about Panthera leo leo and Panthera leo melanochaita being stubs with links to existing articles, or if necessary, shifting them to a new page under the heading 'taxonomy', and keeping that as perhaps a merger of Panthera leo leo and Panthera leo melanochaita, but as BhagyaMani said earlier, there is relevant material about lions that wouldn't fit under the heading 'Taxonomy' or 'Phylogeography', so for such material, I would prefer to keep it in the articles of the regional populations. Leo1pard ( talk) 04:40, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
African lion (partly to include information that can't be easily accommodated in articles of the subpopulations of lions in Africa: Barbary lion, Cape lion, Central African lion, East African lion, West African lion, and Southern African lion, and to make it clear what the different clades are for example), Asiatic lion, and History of lions in Europe, aside from articles on prehistoric relatives like Panthera shawi and Panthera spelaea, and to keep relevant information about lions which doesn't fit under the heading "taxonomy" or "phylogeography"; there is far more to lions that has been studied than just taxonomy or phylogeography, or may be studied in the future to the extent that keeping them all in one place would be pointless, like BhagyaMani said. Leo1pard ( talk) 18:09, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
(Only reordered sequence of replies to Cas Liber's question re separate pages chronologically. -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 22:26, 15 October 2018 (UTC))
Okay, what about northern lion and Panthera leo leo - these seem synonymous to me and should be merged. Furthermore, looking online, the evidence for this being a common name assigned to this subspecies is tenuous (although logical) Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 14:19, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
I might be a little late to this discussion, but my thoughts are as follows: Leave Panthera spelaea and Panthera atrox out of it. Those aren't commonly considered lion subspecies, and they are more relevant to paleontology than lion taxonomy. On the proliferation of subpages: keep Asiatic lion, it is a stable and well-done page about a topic of some notability. And not everyone agrees that the Asiatic lion is the same subspecies as African lions, rather than its own subspecies. Also, merge some of those pages into the appropriate subspecies article, those being P. l. leo and P. l. melanochaita. Cape lion might need to stay (it has some notability from what I can tell). Gaetulian lion is a historical/legendary creature; the info on that page is distinctly different from the more biology-focused subspecies & populations pages. As for the rest, merge into the two subspecies pages and note the mixed population on the main Lion page. The current variety of pages about lions is confusing, to say the least. And for editors: please peacefully resolve your issues with each other. I am not interested in edit warring, or in getting involved in a massive argument, but I am interested in keeping the myriad Felid-related articles organized and properly categorized.-- SilverTiger12 ( talk) 19:27, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Right, there has been some discussion at Talk:Panthera_leo_leo#Merge? and sections below it over what and how lion taxonomy is discussed on wikipedia. Right now we have:
We also have:
Note that we do not have a Taxonomy of lions or Lion conservation page.
Please, can as many folks as possible look over the pages involved and give opinions below onto which pages should be separate or upmerged or split or rearranged? Some options include moving all material into a Taxonomy of lions page, plus just the two subspecies. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 23:21, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
References
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Jts1882 Once again, BhagyaMani is showing disregard for discussions. For a long time now, there has been discussion regarding what BhagyaMani does, and it was repeatedly said in there that Central African lion clade should be an article, and Central African lion redirected to another larger article with WP:reliable sources that cover subjects like that population of lions, and this was agreed between us, particularly after BhagyaMani got into arguments with Punetor i Rregullt5, which I said could have been avoided if BhagyaMani didn't turn Central African lion back into an article. Then, after I did the agreed changes, partly to stop any more arguments on that, and talked to them about it here, BhagyaMani once again showed disregard for discussions, by turning Central African lion back into an article, and Central African lion clade back into a stub, accusing me of edit-warring, when in fact I was doing something that was agreed in a discussion, and these comments of his which have similarities ( [3] [4] [5] [6]) show that he doesn't want to be corrected on anything that he does, even if he has made edits which show disregard for what is in reliable sources, and I see that he wants to distract people from issues that he's responsible for, by making claims here and there about certain things which ignore the issues at large, such as accusing me of an "edit war" after I made an agreed change which he knows has been discussed for a long time. Central African lion (which was meant about lions in Central Africa in general, not any specific clade in Central Africa) is not supposed to be an article, but Central African lion clade is supposed to be an article about the 'Central' clade defined by Bertola et al. in northern Central Africa and East Africa, and Casliber, I am not Punetor, otherwise certain disagreements that occurred between us shouldn't have happened. I only met Punetor this year, as far as I can remember. Leo1pard ( talk) 06:29, 6 November 2018 (UTC); edited 07:39, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
Right, the unique encyclopedic information of Mixed lion populations could surely be condensed to a few sentences at most and merged to lion Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 01:16, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
In the 19th century, a number of subspecies were described for lions in Northeast Africa. For example, zoological specimens from Nubia and Somalia were described or proposed by zoologists under the trinomina Felis leo nubicus [1] and Felis leo somaliensis. [2] In later centuries, these trinomina were alternatively considered to be synonymous with the scientific names of the North [3] [4] and East African lions. [5] [6] A test done in 2012 on 15 lions at Addis Ababa Zoo and lions from 6 wild populations demonstrated that the captive lions were genetically different to wild lions in other parts of East Africa, but similar to wild lions from Cameroon and Chad. [7] [8] Among six samples from captive lions which were of Ethiopian origin, five samples clustered with other East African samples, but one clustered with Sahelian samples. [9] ... Lions of northern Uganda have not been analysed genetically, [10] and might belong to the Northern subspecies. In northern Uganda, lions are present in Kidepo Valley and Murchison Falls National Parks. [11] [12] The Central African lion [13] is a population of lions in Central Africa that has been grouped under the northern subspecies (Panthera leo leo), but was also found to be related to the southern subspecies [14] [10] (Panthera leo melanochaita), [15] [16] depending on the subpopulation, and is fragmented into small and isolated groups since the 1950s. [17] [11] ... Its hair samples were collected for phylogenetic analysis by Barnett et al., and compared with tissue samples of lions from Gabon and the Republic of the Congo that were killed in the 20th century. Results indicate that this individual, besides extinct lions in Odzala-Kokoua National Park in the Republic of the Congo, is closely related to the ancestral lion population of the area, and that its DNA shows a typical Southern lion haplotype. It is considered possible that this lion dispersed to the area from Namibia or Botswana. [14] A phylogeographical analysis conducted by Bertola et al. depicted a number of lions in places adjacent to East and Southern Africa as belonging to the southern group, with others in Central Africa belonging to the northern group. In particular, the northern part of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, which is adjacent to the East African country of Uganda, the Central African Republic and South Sudan, is believed to have both genetic groups. [10]
Discussing information like this in any of the pre-existing discussions from the 6th of November has just made one more complicated, because of things like this, the pre-existing discussions haven't been solved, even though it is over a week since they were started, and they got more complicated as more people come in to say more things, which were not relevant to the discussions when they were created on the 6th of November. Before things get any more complicated, particularly in the discussions that were opened on the 6th of November, due to the haste in making discussions on articles that were not originally discussed there, based on the false premise that sorting things out would be simple, these new discussions on the genetically complicated lions must close, and the focus should now be on finishing what was initially under discussion. Leo1pard ( talk) 15:25, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Oppose, We create articles on Wikipedia, so different people who need information can read them, we shouldn't summarised a paragraph so detailed in few concise just because you want. People who read Wikipedia need much more informations than that paragraph that you want to summarise just with few sentence. — Punëtor i Rregullt5 { talk} 05:49, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Comment, I would have wished that the initial discussions ( Talk:Panthera leo melanochaita#Merger proposal and Talk:Northern lion#Merger proposal) from the 6th of November should have finished first, without attention drifting towards other articles, and though I warned ( [7] [8]) that focusing on other articles would lead to complications, it was not heeded, and those discussions became focused on other articles that I wished should not be part of them, and new discussions have been opened up regarding them, so close to 2 weeks after those initial discussions started, they are not closed, and have become more complicated over time, with more people making more comments that were not initially relevant to the discussions, and mixing what was in the newer discussions with these older discussions. Leo1pard ( talk) 07:55, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
References
Haas_al2005
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Kingdonetal.2013
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).The Addis Ababa zoo lions have dark manes and small bodies, unlike other African lions. But life in captivity can sometimes influence appearance. A team of researchers, led by the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Germany and the University of York in the UK, checked to see if the lions really are different by comparing DNA samples of 15 lions from the zoo to six populations of wild lions. Their genetic analysis revealed that the gene sequence of all fifteen lions were unique and showed little sign of inbreeding. The study was recently published in the European Journal of Wildlife Research.
Bruche_al2012
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Bertola_al2016
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Bauer_vanderMerwe
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Barnett_al2018_Origin
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Catsg2017
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help page).iucn
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At present, there are more than 150 redirects to lion main and subpages, many of them with broken links; including 48 to lion, 29 to Asiatic lion, 29 to East African lion, 12 to Southern African lion, 11 to Barbary lion, 7 to West African lion, 6 to Central African lion, 4 to Cape lion, 4 to Panthera leo leo, and another 4 to Panthera leo melanochaita. Imo: quite a mess, and the vast majority superfluous. -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 11:26, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
Please see this. I remembered this after a long time. Leo1pard ( talk) 06:12, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
The following table is hopefully useful to provide a prelim overview on the discussion. In case, I added any of your names into the wrong column, please delete and add it to the correct column. – BhagyaMani ( talk) 10:36, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Additionally, I ping other contributors of lion main page @ LittleJerry, Cygnis insignis, Materialscientist, Alphard08, Greedo8, Apokryltaros, and Axl: please add your names into table columns. -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 10:54, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Moved comment by User:Leo1pard re 'Northern lion' (because of "Northern lion" being more common than previously thought, but only relevant content from Central African lion!) [1] and re Panthera leo melanochaita (I see the likelihood of these becoming more common) [1] out of the table. Please just add or delete your names and add comments below the table, if you deem commenting necessary. Thank you! -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 13:41, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
References
I just discovered another WP:REDUNDANTFORK : History of lions in Mesopotamia. -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 16:13, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
@ BhagyaMani, Cygnis insignis, and SilverTiger12: Can I ask why you have decided to make more discussions already, considering that the old issues haven't been resolved yet? How many discussions have to happen at once, in this month? Leo1pard ( talk) 17:02, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
@ BhagyaMani and SilverTiger12: Stop. SMcCandlish had earlier complained "This was a real headache of a set of discussions to wade through and absorb", and I earlier said that things were getting out of hand as more and more discussions were being made, but you're still keen on making or having newer discussions? Leo1pard ( talk) 17:12, 26 November 2018 (UTC); edited 17:27, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
@ BhagyaMani and SilverTiger12: I am not alone in being frustrated over this jungle of discussions, look above. How many times do I have to warn against making more and more discussions, which people may find frustrating? I knew ( [11] [12]) that things would get more complicated if more of this happened, the old issues are still not resolved. Leo1pard ( talk) 18:11, 26 November 2018 (UTC); edited 18:14, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
See WP:TALKFORK. Spawning more and more redundant proposals thwarts actual consensus-building. PS: I propose a new merge: just put all felid content at Kittehs. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:12, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
@ BhagyaMani and SilverTiger12: Stop persisting in the new discussions. The older issues have not been resolved, and you have helped to make a jungle of discussions which people like myself were not keen on in the first place ( [13] [14]). You can't say that you respect your friend's earlier efforts if you keep on making discussions after discussions about what you WP:like or not. As it is, people outside Wikipedia don't always have the same attitude as you, but they are interested in things that I have done here. Want proof? Leo1pard ( talk) 03:03, 27 November 2018 (UTC); edited 08:15, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
BhagyaMani I asked you a question. Do you want proof of people having similar views as mine about what is what? Leo1pard ( talk) 08:15, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
{{
hat}}
them, with {{
Moved discussion to}}
pointers back to the main thread on it. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 01:14, 28 November 2018 (UTC)Before we start with any merging, there are a few steps we should agree upon, imo: like 1) ask someone neutral, i.e. someone who did not yet contribute, to conclude the discussion; perhaps Softlavender or PRehse ? And then 2) agree on an entry point for the mergers. For this, I propose this revision of Panthera leo leo and this revision of Panthera leo melanochaita. Or should we wait a few more days / weeks so that some invitees still get a chance to vote? I'm not in a hurry. Who is? -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 13:40, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
A list of various redirects to the various lion pages.
Redirects to | keep | delete |
---|---|---|
Lion: | African lion, African Lion, African lions, Felis leo, King of Beasts, Lions, P. leo, Panthera Leo, Panthera leo, Southeast African lion, Taxonomy of lions | Kali (lion), Nakawa (lion), Notch (lion), Addis Ababa lion, Addis Abeba lion, Congo lion, Congo Lion, Lady Liuwa, Lionesses, Middle African lion, North East Congo lion, Northeast Congo lion, Northeast Congolese lion, Nubian lion, Panthera leo abyssinica, A random emoji-thing I can't insert here, Lions in Africa, Sub-Saharan African lion, Hunting behavior of lions, Lion attack, Man-eating lions, Lion mane, Mane (lion), Mane of a lion, Lion (animal), Lions in Ethiopia (broken), Lion cub, Lion penis (entirely inappropriate), Lion's penis (also inappropriate), Lions mating, Mating lions, Reproductive behavior of lions, Sexual behavior of lions, East-Central African lion (broken), East-Southern African lion (broken), Eastern-Southern African lion, Lennox Anderson |
Asiatic lion: | Asian lion, Gir lion, Gir Lion, Asian Lion, Asiatic lions, Asiatic Lion, Asiatic Lions, Indian Lion, Indian lion, Indian Lions, Panthera leo asiaticus?, Panthera leo persica, Panthera leo goojratensis? | Anatolian lion, Arabian lion, Assyrian lion, Asiatic lion mane, Bengal lion, Eurasian lion, Iraqi lion, Lions of the Near East, Syrian lion, Persian lion, Persian Lion, Melanistic Asiatic lion, Lion manes (broken), Exceptionally sized lions, Felis leo bengalensis, P. leo persica Mesopotamian lion, Panthera leo mesopotamica : or redirect to Cultural depictions of lions? |
Barbary lion: | Atlas lion, North African lion | Algerian lion, Atlas Lion, Barbary Lion, Berber lion, Egyptian lion, Mauretanian lion, North African Lion, Northern African lion, Numidian lion |
Cape lion: | Cape Lion?, Panthera leo capensis? | Cape lions, Panthera leo melanochaitus |
Panthera leo leo: | Panthera leo nubica | Panthera leo nubicus, Central-West African lion, Sudan lion |
Panthera leo melanochaita: | Southern lion? | Southwest African lion, Transvaal lion, Tsavo Lion |
West African lion: | Panthera leo gambianus, Panthera leo senegalensis | West African Lion, West-Central African lion, Western African lion, Senegal lion, Gambian lion |
Central African lion: | Panthera leo kamptzi, Panthera leo azandica | Central lion, Cameroon lion, Congolese lion, Panthera leo azandicus |
Northern lion: | Panthera leo nobilis | |
East African lion: | Serengeti lion, Masai lion, Panthera leo roosevelti, Panthera leo somaliensis, | Eastern African lion, Hollister's lion, Kenyan lion, Kilimanjaro lion, Lake Victoria lion, Northern Lake Victoria lion, Lions in Tsavo, Lions of Tsavo, Tsavo lion, Tsavo lions, Masai Lion, Masai lions, Somali lion, Somalian lion, Somaliland lion, Sotik lion, Uganda lion, Ugandan lion Panthera leo hollisteri, Panthera leo massaica, Panthera leo massaicus, Panthera leo nyanzae, Felis leo roosevelti, Panthera leo sabakiensis, Panthera leo webbiensis |
Southern African lion: | Panthera leo bleyenberghi, Panthera leo krugeri, Kalahari lion | Angolan lion, Katanga lion, Kruger lion, Lobengula (lion), South African lion, Southwest African Lion, Transvaal Lion, Zimbabwean lion Panthera leo vernayi |
Mixed lion populations | Panthera leo leo × Panthera leo melanochaita, Panthera leo leo and Panthera leo melanochaita, Northeast African lion, Abyssinian lion |
More to come...-- SilverTiger12 ( talk) 16:36, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
If anyone would like to contest the status of a redirect, please comment BELOW. Please do no edit the table. I will continue working on the table, and attempting to submit a change only to have it wiped away due to an edit conflict is highly frustrating. Thank very much.-- SilverTiger12 ( talk) 17:40, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
@ BhagyaMani and SilverTiger12: There is growing frustration over this plethora of discussions, so you're not "clearing the jungle", you're making things worse. Please respect that. Leo1pard ( talk) 18:09, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
Just found and added 4 more superfluous pages created by the two main redirecters. -- BhagyaMani ( talk) 22:12, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
![]() | Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org. |
Punëtor i Rregullt5 {talk} 16:12, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Care should be taken as to which lions are in regions where the northern ( Panthera leo leo) and southern ( Panthera leo melanochaita) subspecies either overlap or co-occur, particularly for the Ethiopian lion (formerly P. l. abyssinica or P. l. roosevelti). Due to its genetic make-up, the Ethiopian lion has become WP:notable amongst the populations, at least since 2012. Much has been written about it, since Bruche et al. discovered that they were genetically different from other populations in East Africa, and finally, the Cat Specialist Group had a note about this, saying that their country was a contact zone between the two subspecies, based on the work of Bertola et al., which depicts Ethiopia as one of the places where genetic admixture is likely, not the only one, and yes, people are interested in stuff like that, not just scientific names that reflect a recent revision of subspecies, look how much has been written about Ethiopian lions since the genetic test in 2012, for example ( [25] [26] [27] [28] [29]). In addition, "northern lion" and "northern subspecies" were not used by only one author, meaning people outside Wikipedia are interested in exactly which lion is which, as it is with tigers. Leo1pard ( talk) 06:17, 2 December 2018 (UTC); edited 06:28, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
The evolution sections currently states that Panthera spelaea derived about 300,000 years ago. Then, in the extinct species section it states that P. atrox derived from P. spelaea 340,000 years ago. LittleJerry ( talk) 21:53, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
Aside from the issue of certain lions in Central Africa, particularly Congo-Kinshasa, being shown by genetic analyses, including that of Bertola et al., to belong to the " southern subspecies or group (P. l. melanochaita), the use of 'northern' and 'southern' to describe the subspecies has extended to beyond the sources used in the articles, which made use of Bertola's results, like this. Leo1pard ( talk) 04:44, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
As has been mentioned elsewhere, treating the Upper Pleistocene Eurasian cave lion (Panthera leo spelaea or P. spelaea) as a different species to P. leo must come with doing something similar for the Early Middle Pleistocene Eurasian cave lion (P. l. fossilis, P. fossilis or P. spelaea fossilis), since the latter is believed to be an ancestor to the former. Leo1pard ( talk) 15:47, 25 January 2019 (UTC); edited 15:48, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
I try to find the sources where lions are called king or lord. The earliest sources I found so far is The Fables of Æsop.
-- mingwangx ( talk) 15:07, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
LittleJerry Just as the fact that a number of WP:RS's state that the Siberian tiger is the biggest tiger or cat doesn't mean that we should say it just like that, because it contradicts what reliable sources about wild lions and tigers say, that for instance the Bengal tiger has heavier average weights in the wild than the Amur tiger, we must exercise caution when dealing with sources giving different statements about the weights of lions, otherwise, what you did would be akin to changing the statement "the Siberian tiger is often considered to be the biggest tiger or felid" to "the Siberian tiger is the biggest tiger or felid", which is WP:Bias, and the talk-page for the tiger has had a similar discussion already. Leo1pard ( talk) 05:51, 16 August 2019 (UTC); edited 05:51, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
Is it possible to add, is there any information to be found, about the number of male lions <> female lions in nature? I've seen a National Geographic documentary about the lion (Lion Ranger - Trouble in the Pride - s01e01) where they say there are significantly more male than female lions. It would be interesting if this ratio is provided for the species. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.118.94.49 ( talk) 20:28, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Hello LittleJerry,
I won't dispute that cluttering a featured article with too many pictures is not a good thing ( = your revert of my proposal).
However, I can't help regretting that, in a chapter dealing with Hunting and diet, we don't have a series of pictures describing a typical hunting sequence, complete with the initial stalking and the final dragging of the prey to store it away from vultures and hyenas.
Now, we do have such a series of pictures, as shown in the French article. I am aware that it might mean moving away some of the existing photographs; but then, some of them (such as the one showing the lion's teeth) could quite well illustrate a different chapter, as they are not specific to hunting.
Well, I won't fight over that, anyway: it's up to you. Just a regret... Azurfrog ( talk) 11:54, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
Since the article is over 144,000 bytes, I think new edits should be monitored and any new information added should be discussed here first. LittleJerry ( talk) 00:24, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
In the lead it states that "In the Pleistocene, the lion ranged throughout Eurasia, Africa and North America, but today it has been reduced to fragmented populations in Sub-Saharan Africa and one critically endangered population in western India." This is misleading, while Eurasian cave hyena are deeply nested within living african spotted hyenas, the Eurasian and American lions belong to an entirely separate lineage that split from living lions around 1.9 million years ago (i.e. species level split), and was present in Eurasia by 600,000 years ago [30]. The expansion of living lions out of Africa also happened relatively recently, around 21,000 years ago during the terminal Pleistocene [31] I'm not sure how this could elegantly worked into the lead though. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 18:42, 28 April 2020 (UTC)