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If anyone can find an explanation on why the keyboard is layed out the way it is instead of the standard QWERTY format, I think it would be a valuable addition to the article. — Jessy Smith —Preceding undated comment added 13:27, 5 June 2012 (UTC) You need to see these marvellous machines working, and explained as they go. I did a 5-year-apprenticeship + 28 years working these machines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.26.245.44 ( talk) 05:36, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
Does anybody have a picture or diagram showing the etaoin shrdlu keyboard layout? http://static.flickr.com/82/214724189_4adf1d6985_m.jpg i don't know if that link works but i couldn't get the picture it self to show. hope this helps
This sounds like a great idea. Also, in my opinion, the article "Linotype Machine" gives a better description of the actual working process of the machine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.141 ( talk • contribs) 2005-12-30
Oppose merging linotronic which is a whole different kettle of fish. - DavidWBrooks 16:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps instead of redirecting a search for "Linotype" to Mergenthaler Linotype Company, maybe it should be directed to the Linotype Machine article instead. TIE53 17:33, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I've never seen the terms 'hot type' and 'cold type' used here in the UK. When I was at printing college in the 1970s and working in the industry later, we always called it 'hot metal' and 'coldsetting' or more normally 'photosetting' or 'phototypesetting.' Are the hot type/cold type terms recognised in other countries, or should they be changed to hot metal/coldsetting? Simoneccles 04:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't know anything about Linotypes so I cannot correct these sentences, but they are too technical for someone who has never seen a linotype machine to get a good idea of what is going on. Terms need to be defined, and where possible avoid using technical terms when a general description would do. Detailed images of the components would really really help.
" This delivery channel would then transfer the composed line into the 'first elevator' which then positions the matrices and spacebands in front of the mold. The matrices would be aligned, then the justification levers would rise to expand the spacebands as needed, then the line would be 'locked up' against the mold and the slug is cast."
"The complexity of a Linotype machine was necessary not just so that it would place matrices in the proper place as the operator typed on the keyboard, but so it could return the matrices to the proper channels (slots) in the magazine in preparation for their next usage. This was vital, because returning letters to the proper part of a case (termed "redistribution") is the slowest and most difficult part of setting type by hand. The Linotype machine used a clever design of 7 binary-coded notches on each matrix (the notches corresponding to their position within the main 90-channel or the 34-channel 'auxiliary' magazines). Certain seldom-used characters (referred to as 'pi' matrices or simply 'sorts') had none of the teeth on the matrix notched, so they would proceed the entire length of the distribution" Cshay 23:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
So is a linotype machine like a backwards typewriter that punches letters into a molten lead plate that is then covered with ink and used to print pages?
Any interest in one of these sections? I just found a short story by Frederic Brown. Etaoin Shrdlu. Included in The Best of Frederic Brown: Ballantine, 1977. Earlier Publication Unknown Worlds, February 1942 by Street & Smith Publications. TaoPhoenix ( talk) 01:50, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
always found their clackety-clack soothing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.148.219 ( talk) 18:29, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
The article Casting section says, The continuous heating of the molten alloy causes the tin and antimony in the mixture to slowly boil off, resulting in a softening of the alloy as the lead concentration increases. The mixture must then be assayed and tin and antimony added back to restore the original alloy toughness.
This is a good start, but what is the correct proportion of lead, tin, and antimony in the molten alloy?
Also, when the type slugs have been used for printing, and the metal is returned to be used again, it is generally melted again, and in the process burning off any ink or impurities, and tin and antimony is added, and cast into bars or pigs for use in the machines. This should be explained somewhere, perhaps in the Linotype alloy article, which should cover both the proportions and the need to remelt the used slugs. -- DThomsen8 ( talk) 23:51, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
The names suggest the answer: a Linotype machine casts lines (one generic name for the machine that avoids the "linotype" trademark is "linecaster"). A Monotype machine casts individual letters. They were also used in different environments: Linotype in newspapers, Monotype in book publishing. Paul Koning ( talk) 18:40, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
And where does one find typesetters that use either machine in the year 2011? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.209.25 ( talk) 23:18, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Not a technical Linotype issue, but I find this sentence "Before Mergenthaler's invention of the Linotype in 1884, no newspaper in the world had more than eight pages." to be nearly impossible to believe, although I cannot prove it is wrong.
I just ran across an advertisement in a 1921 Wake Forest College newspaper describing the history of the linotype. The advertisement is for The Record Publishing Co. in Zebulon, N.C., presumably the town's own newspaper. That history claims a Zebulon man invented the linotype process and sold it to Mergenthaler, a lawyer, who then developed it into a workable machine. If the story is true, it seems the man who sold the idea, one William Foster, deserves at least part of the credit. Check it out here, (scroll to page 4 and you'll see the ad): http://dspace.zsr.wfu.edu/jspui/bitstream/10339/3534/1/1941-10-17.pdf. 69.134.180.125 ( talk) 07:27, 7 October 2011 (UTC)David Eliot Leone, Associate Editor, The Wake Forest Weekly.
I suggest that the wording in the first paragraph of the phrase
"when it was largely replaced by offset lithography printing and computer typesetting"
be changed to
"when it was largely replaced by offset lithography printing and, later, computer typesetting"
to indicate that there was a significant gap between the beginning of the decline of metal type and the advent of digital typesetting. (At least, that is my impression. If I am wrong, feel free to ignore or correct me. My only claim to being in the industry is that I once worked as a temp on a web press.)
Starling2001 ( talk) 03:53, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
I took out the section on health problems. It was unsourced and doesn't seem to be true. The CDC Material Safety Data Sheet (from 1969, the latest I could find with "Linotyper" listed as an occupation) says there is no incidence of plumbism among Linotypers, and the concentration of lead in the air around a Linotype is low. You don't get significant fumes below 500° C, [1] which is above the temperature of a Linotype pot. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 18:51, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Simply linking to Ottmar Mergenthaler for the history section is a very bad idea.
Ottmar Mergenthaler's article is about more than just Linotype history. And conversely, Linotype history is not simply the story of Ottmar Mergenthaler. Battling McGook ( talk) 19:35, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
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Just a note that the images showing hot-metal type are upside down. Such type is read from left to right. BeenAroundAWhile ( talk) 05:30, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
As others have already stated some 4 years ago, the history section should have at least a summery of the history of the Linotype machine. We especially should point out the Linotype machine was being phased out in the 1970's and mentioned what replaced it. -- Notcharliechaplin ( talk) 14:51, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
I never had the chance (or misfortune?) of seeing one of these machines in action, although I have met and befriended someone who has worked on one—sadly, he passed away some time ago, so I can’t ask him this…
The article says the keyboard had “no shift key; uppercase letters have keys separate from the lowercase letters.” However, it looks from the image of the keyboard that many keys did have two possible results or options: For example, most of the blue (center-section) keys have two characters on them, e.g. 1V, 7G, 2B, 8R, etc.
Can someone explain these in the article (or, at the very least, as an answer to my question, here in the Talk page)?
Thanks in advance,
CielProfond ( talk) 23:33, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
The opening paragraph says that linotype was replaced in the late 70's by offset lithography. I think this is incorrect. Offset lithography is a printing method. Linotype is a typesetting method. So offset lithography cannot replace linotype. So the NY Times, for example, was printed by offset lithography during the linotype era, just as it still is now, in the computer typesetting era. Kawfmin ( talk) 01:27, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Ok, after more exploring, I think my comment is only partly correct.I believe Linotype in fact could only be used to prepare letterpress (relief) plates. So anything prepared via Linotype could only be printed via letterpress. So the NY Times would have
been printed in letterpress , not offset lithography, during the linotype era (using intaglio relief photogravure, though, for the images), and the computer typesetting it switched to as seen in the Etoain Shrdlu film was used to prepare offset lithographic plates, so that the move away from Linotype was also a move from letterpress to offset lithography. None of that is explicitly stated in the film. Would be interested to hear if anyone finds this to be an accurate summary of the matter. Still, not quite correct to suggest that offset lithography replaced linotype, since one is a printing method and one is a typesetting method. And offset lithography existed throughout the 20th c., alongside Linotype. I believe that before computer typesetting there there were publications produced in offset lithography that included some type (like golden or silver age comics), but I'm not sure what the typesetting method would have been. Photo typesetting? Some other method?
Kawfmin (
talk)
09:37, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
There currently seems to be some inconsistent use of tenses in this article. The lede begins (emphasis added):
So was it or is it? Well it, the article, that is, was okay, but then...
Such inconsistencies seem to be a frequent problem in articles about old/obsolete things. ReadOnlyAccount ( talk) 17:44, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
If anyone can find an explanation on why the keyboard is layed out the way it is instead of the standard QWERTY format, I think it would be a valuable addition to the article. — Jessy Smith —Preceding undated comment added 13:27, 5 June 2012 (UTC) You need to see these marvellous machines working, and explained as they go. I did a 5-year-apprenticeship + 28 years working these machines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.26.245.44 ( talk) 05:36, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
Does anybody have a picture or diagram showing the etaoin shrdlu keyboard layout? http://static.flickr.com/82/214724189_4adf1d6985_m.jpg i don't know if that link works but i couldn't get the picture it self to show. hope this helps
This sounds like a great idea. Also, in my opinion, the article "Linotype Machine" gives a better description of the actual working process of the machine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.141 ( talk • contribs) 2005-12-30
Oppose merging linotronic which is a whole different kettle of fish. - DavidWBrooks 16:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps instead of redirecting a search for "Linotype" to Mergenthaler Linotype Company, maybe it should be directed to the Linotype Machine article instead. TIE53 17:33, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I've never seen the terms 'hot type' and 'cold type' used here in the UK. When I was at printing college in the 1970s and working in the industry later, we always called it 'hot metal' and 'coldsetting' or more normally 'photosetting' or 'phototypesetting.' Are the hot type/cold type terms recognised in other countries, or should they be changed to hot metal/coldsetting? Simoneccles 04:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't know anything about Linotypes so I cannot correct these sentences, but they are too technical for someone who has never seen a linotype machine to get a good idea of what is going on. Terms need to be defined, and where possible avoid using technical terms when a general description would do. Detailed images of the components would really really help.
" This delivery channel would then transfer the composed line into the 'first elevator' which then positions the matrices and spacebands in front of the mold. The matrices would be aligned, then the justification levers would rise to expand the spacebands as needed, then the line would be 'locked up' against the mold and the slug is cast."
"The complexity of a Linotype machine was necessary not just so that it would place matrices in the proper place as the operator typed on the keyboard, but so it could return the matrices to the proper channels (slots) in the magazine in preparation for their next usage. This was vital, because returning letters to the proper part of a case (termed "redistribution") is the slowest and most difficult part of setting type by hand. The Linotype machine used a clever design of 7 binary-coded notches on each matrix (the notches corresponding to their position within the main 90-channel or the 34-channel 'auxiliary' magazines). Certain seldom-used characters (referred to as 'pi' matrices or simply 'sorts') had none of the teeth on the matrix notched, so they would proceed the entire length of the distribution" Cshay 23:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
So is a linotype machine like a backwards typewriter that punches letters into a molten lead plate that is then covered with ink and used to print pages?
Any interest in one of these sections? I just found a short story by Frederic Brown. Etaoin Shrdlu. Included in The Best of Frederic Brown: Ballantine, 1977. Earlier Publication Unknown Worlds, February 1942 by Street & Smith Publications. TaoPhoenix ( talk) 01:50, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
always found their clackety-clack soothing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.148.219 ( talk) 18:29, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
The article Casting section says, The continuous heating of the molten alloy causes the tin and antimony in the mixture to slowly boil off, resulting in a softening of the alloy as the lead concentration increases. The mixture must then be assayed and tin and antimony added back to restore the original alloy toughness.
This is a good start, but what is the correct proportion of lead, tin, and antimony in the molten alloy?
Also, when the type slugs have been used for printing, and the metal is returned to be used again, it is generally melted again, and in the process burning off any ink or impurities, and tin and antimony is added, and cast into bars or pigs for use in the machines. This should be explained somewhere, perhaps in the Linotype alloy article, which should cover both the proportions and the need to remelt the used slugs. -- DThomsen8 ( talk) 23:51, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
The names suggest the answer: a Linotype machine casts lines (one generic name for the machine that avoids the "linotype" trademark is "linecaster"). A Monotype machine casts individual letters. They were also used in different environments: Linotype in newspapers, Monotype in book publishing. Paul Koning ( talk) 18:40, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
And where does one find typesetters that use either machine in the year 2011? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.209.25 ( talk) 23:18, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Not a technical Linotype issue, but I find this sentence "Before Mergenthaler's invention of the Linotype in 1884, no newspaper in the world had more than eight pages." to be nearly impossible to believe, although I cannot prove it is wrong.
I just ran across an advertisement in a 1921 Wake Forest College newspaper describing the history of the linotype. The advertisement is for The Record Publishing Co. in Zebulon, N.C., presumably the town's own newspaper. That history claims a Zebulon man invented the linotype process and sold it to Mergenthaler, a lawyer, who then developed it into a workable machine. If the story is true, it seems the man who sold the idea, one William Foster, deserves at least part of the credit. Check it out here, (scroll to page 4 and you'll see the ad): http://dspace.zsr.wfu.edu/jspui/bitstream/10339/3534/1/1941-10-17.pdf. 69.134.180.125 ( talk) 07:27, 7 October 2011 (UTC)David Eliot Leone, Associate Editor, The Wake Forest Weekly.
I suggest that the wording in the first paragraph of the phrase
"when it was largely replaced by offset lithography printing and computer typesetting"
be changed to
"when it was largely replaced by offset lithography printing and, later, computer typesetting"
to indicate that there was a significant gap between the beginning of the decline of metal type and the advent of digital typesetting. (At least, that is my impression. If I am wrong, feel free to ignore or correct me. My only claim to being in the industry is that I once worked as a temp on a web press.)
Starling2001 ( talk) 03:53, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
I took out the section on health problems. It was unsourced and doesn't seem to be true. The CDC Material Safety Data Sheet (from 1969, the latest I could find with "Linotyper" listed as an occupation) says there is no incidence of plumbism among Linotypers, and the concentration of lead in the air around a Linotype is low. You don't get significant fumes below 500° C, [1] which is above the temperature of a Linotype pot. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 18:51, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Simply linking to Ottmar Mergenthaler for the history section is a very bad idea.
Ottmar Mergenthaler's article is about more than just Linotype history. And conversely, Linotype history is not simply the story of Ottmar Mergenthaler. Battling McGook ( talk) 19:35, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Linotype machine. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:06, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
Just a note that the images showing hot-metal type are upside down. Such type is read from left to right. BeenAroundAWhile ( talk) 05:30, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
As others have already stated some 4 years ago, the history section should have at least a summery of the history of the Linotype machine. We especially should point out the Linotype machine was being phased out in the 1970's and mentioned what replaced it. -- Notcharliechaplin ( talk) 14:51, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
I never had the chance (or misfortune?) of seeing one of these machines in action, although I have met and befriended someone who has worked on one—sadly, he passed away some time ago, so I can’t ask him this…
The article says the keyboard had “no shift key; uppercase letters have keys separate from the lowercase letters.” However, it looks from the image of the keyboard that many keys did have two possible results or options: For example, most of the blue (center-section) keys have two characters on them, e.g. 1V, 7G, 2B, 8R, etc.
Can someone explain these in the article (or, at the very least, as an answer to my question, here in the Talk page)?
Thanks in advance,
CielProfond ( talk) 23:33, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
The opening paragraph says that linotype was replaced in the late 70's by offset lithography. I think this is incorrect. Offset lithography is a printing method. Linotype is a typesetting method. So offset lithography cannot replace linotype. So the NY Times, for example, was printed by offset lithography during the linotype era, just as it still is now, in the computer typesetting era. Kawfmin ( talk) 01:27, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Ok, after more exploring, I think my comment is only partly correct.I believe Linotype in fact could only be used to prepare letterpress (relief) plates. So anything prepared via Linotype could only be printed via letterpress. So the NY Times would have
been printed in letterpress , not offset lithography, during the linotype era (using intaglio relief photogravure, though, for the images), and the computer typesetting it switched to as seen in the Etoain Shrdlu film was used to prepare offset lithographic plates, so that the move away from Linotype was also a move from letterpress to offset lithography. None of that is explicitly stated in the film. Would be interested to hear if anyone finds this to be an accurate summary of the matter. Still, not quite correct to suggest that offset lithography replaced linotype, since one is a printing method and one is a typesetting method. And offset lithography existed throughout the 20th c., alongside Linotype. I believe that before computer typesetting there there were publications produced in offset lithography that included some type (like golden or silver age comics), but I'm not sure what the typesetting method would have been. Photo typesetting? Some other method?
Kawfmin (
talk)
09:37, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
There currently seems to be some inconsistent use of tenses in this article. The lede begins (emphasis added):
So was it or is it? Well it, the article, that is, was okay, but then...
Such inconsistencies seem to be a frequent problem in articles about old/obsolete things. ReadOnlyAccount ( talk) 17:44, 13 October 2023 (UTC)