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This article should be deleted. It is completely irrelevant and unnecessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.113.37 ( talk) 16:04, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
I don't think Lindy West is likely to be deleted; I'll add a number of articles about her (other than at The Stranger and Jezebel) which I think would meet the criteria, but you can always try if you wish. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 20:47, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
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I apparently made a "script error" but don't know what that is. 24.97.201.230 ( talk) 17:03, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Information about Lindy West's BMI has been added to the page. This was done in order to suggest some of the reasons she takes a particular interest in the subject of fat shaming. Personal information about Ms. West (namely height and weight) was publicly disclosed on the internet by Ms. West herself, and taken from her own personal website. Accordingly, there should be no concerns about invasion of privacy. The other references are to reputable medical institutions (e.g., the NIH; the University of Rochester). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.189.73.197 ( talk) 10:33, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
You removed today's edit claiming that reliable sources were not cited. However, the primary cited source for the added information was Lindy West's own public website, which per Wikipedia policy is a valid source for bio page purposes. From the guidelines you linked to: "Never use self-published sources – including but not limited to books, zines, websites, blogs, and tweets – as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject (see below)." The information provided is not something "I thought I read on a blog", as you put it. Also, it is unclear how the edits constitute instruction regarding "what people ought to think."
Accordingly, I have restored the added material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.189.73.197 ( talk • contribs) 15:55, 22 October 2014
It's not my definition of obesity; it's the NIH's. And it's based on facts (height/weight) provided by West herself. But in order to avoid the whole issue of making a "medical diagnosis" on Wikipedia, I have simply inserted her statistics as she reports them, without further analysis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.189.73.197 ( talk) 17:50, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
No other reputable publication has drawn attention to West's weight in the way you are doing. The rules of WP:BLP don't allow us to construct our own lines of attack against living persons as you are doing here. You are trying to say, "West criticizes fat shaming, but LOOK she is obese!" It would be acceptable if the New York Times or The Economist said that; we could cite their counterarguments or criticisms. It is not true that the NIH has taken issue with Lindy West's opinions about weight and health. You are the one taking issue with it: one anonymous guy identified at IP 62.189.73.197. If the NIH had issued a response to Lindy West, we could cite that.
What you are doing is lifting facts out of context, and using them in a specific way: to influence how the reader thinks about West's writings on fat shaming. Wikipedia editors don't get to do that. Find a reuptable authority who has responded to West in some way, and cite what they said. Besides WP:BLP and WP:SYNTH, see WP:FRANKIE. Wikipedia has numerous guidelines against this kind of editing. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 18:41, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
This section of the article had been renamed "references". However, its content are not references: they are not citations for specific material contained in the article, nor are they a list of articles consulted as general references in writing the Wikipedia article. Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 00:22, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
And these are connected with the article, for example on the question of whether west was ever a film editor. There was no inline citation for that, but there was a reference. Obviously an inline citation is better, but the next best thing is for the cited facts to be in the references in the bottom. One of several purposes behind citing sources this way is as a stage in the development of better articles. Another purpose is to list sources that establish the notability of a stub. Having a list of credible references often -- not always! -- avoids wasting time in a moot AFD discussion. yes, it would be better to have them all cited inline, but a stub has to start somewhere. And even FAs use the same structure, sometimes. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 00:55, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
"Articles mentioning West" sounds rather snarky. Is that the point? To chip away at notability to make it seem like this article is manufactured drama? -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 01:29, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
I had deleted this quoute "Accepting the award, West said, "I hear a lot these days about the lazy, aimless 'millennials' – about how all we want to do is sit around twerking our iPods and Tweedling our Kardashians – and I also hear people asking, 'Where is the next generation of the social justice movement? Where are all the young feminists and womanists and activists?' Dude, they're on the internet."" I had wrote in the edit summary that it was a notability issue, Dennis Bratland had corrected me on that. However, WP:WEIGHT I would suggest argues against inclusion and it seems a bit soapboxy, considering that the sources that pointed to it were the press release of the award ceremony and a mobile phone recording of the speech at the award ceremony posted to youtube... - Xcuref1endx ( talk) 21:29, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
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This edit summary cites WP:TRIVIA and WP:PROMOTION for deleting mention of the Women's Media Center Social Media Award. If you actually read WP:TRIVIA, it says, right at the top, in a section helpfuly titled "What this is not" that "This guideline does not suggest the inclusion or exclusion of any information; it only gives style recommendations. Issues of inclusion are addressed by content policies." WP:PROMOTION says nothing about deleting mention of awards to anybody. It is not self promotion. It's not advertising. Neither of these arguments makes any sense.
Going back a little earlier, we have the same deletion, with the summary "rmving references to womens media center award, it is primarily sourced, if someone can find a reliable secondary source for it, put it back in" WP:PRIMARY offers no support for this. Primary sources are allowed, and they may be use to support facts. In fact, the most desirable source for who won an award is the organization giving it. Who is the source for the Acadamey Awards for in the Featured Articles Gary Cooper, or Bradley Cooper? The Academy Awards, of course. The FA Zodiac (film) cites -- who else -- the British Film Institute to verify that Zodiac won a British Film Institute award. Just bizarre reasoning.
This is wrong "removed per WP:ELMINOFFICIAL. Link is already included up top". Says we don't include multiple different official websites, such as both davidbowie.com and https://twitter.com/davidbowiereal and all other sites and urls that belong to that person. But we do but davidbowie.com in both the infobox and the external links section, per WP:ELCITE. This is how the Featured Article David Bowie does it, as to dozens of other Featured Articles. Content in indoboxes is almost alwawas duplicated by content in sections. Another bizarre misreading of plain English guidelines.
This one is wrong too. " there is already notes for the work cited". These further readings sources are not cited in the reflist. See MOS:FURTHER.
I could go on, but I'm getting annoyed. These blatantly false excuses for deleting content are not a good choice, and I suggest cutting it out. Tossing around an alphabet soup of WP:XYZABC all caps policy links is not a magic talisman to justify anything you like. You have to at least read WP:XYZABC before you invoke it. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 23:46, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
Why are you even doing this? What is it about this Women's Media Center Award that you are so concerned about? If you want to make this article better, it needs to be expanded to fully cover the subject. There are several points in West's career, that aren't mentioned at all. What are you doing? -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 00:47, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
The discussion here is two part.
I hear a lot these days about the lazy, aimless 'millennials' – about how all we want to do is sit around twerking our iPods and Tweedling our Kardashians – and I also hear people asking, 'Where is the next generation of the social justice movement? Where are all the young feminists and womanists and activists?' Dude, they're on the internet.
provided it does not get WP:UNDUE weightseems contradictory, since weight is, in most cases, based on secondary source coverage (i.e. not what the organization giving awards or the person receiving an award says about it). An award itself has no weight at all simply for existing, regardless of what press releases the sponsoring organization puts out (and regardless of whether those press releases have a connection to the person receiving the award). I could create such an award and give it to someone tomorrow. I would hope that nobody would think it appropriate to then add that award to the recipient's article, let alone a lengthy quote taken from my press release. Someone may say that this award is more significant than the one I just created, but that sort of determination is based on secondary source coverage, not Wikipedians' opinions. Primary sources are fine for basic facts, but do not themselves justify including things like awards and quotes. We can't just include a quote because a Wikipedian thinks it's a good quote or because an organization uses it in a press release. There needs to be a reason to include it. We need a reason to include one quote from a primary source over another -- and we get that reason from secondary sources. There are countless awards put on by countless organizations, personal websites, radio station promotions, etc. and secondary source coverage is, as with most of the rest of Wikipedia, how we determine weight. The secondary sources are why the award should be included, and the determination of whether to include the quote should be based only on secondary source coverage. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 04:42, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
We would want to include counterbalancing criticism, expecially if this were not a BLP. But since it is a living person, policy is to tread lightly on any negativity about the subject. So expect to see the balance shifted away from criticism in a bio of a living person compared with one of a non living person.
In the context of the larger coverage of West, this award and this quote are an approximate microcosm. This is only a stub. A proper article would have nuanced details about the contents of her book, her columns, why she became influential. I'd probably include all or part of the quote "One of the most distinctive voices advancing feminist politics through humor, West is behind a handful of popular pieces — 'How to Make a Rape Joke' on Jezebel, 'Hello, I Am Fat' on The Stranger’s blog, 'Ask Not for Whom the Bell Trolls; It Trolls for Thee' on 'This American Life' — that have helped shift mainstream attitudes about body image, comedy and online harassment over the past several years." from the Times review of Shrill. I'd probably have a lot to add on the 'criticism' of West from Yiannopoulous or Breitbart, since there is extensive secondary sources on this subject. The point being, that once the article has grown to start to cover all the material comprehensively, then individual quotes like this become relatively less significant, and you don't notice them as much. We could delete one if it bothers somebody without making much difference, yet it is unlikely to bother anyone because it's only a drop in the bucket anyway.
The point being, it's so wasteful to quibble over every sentence of a mere stub. Don't like a stub? Add content. Un-stub it, make it big and comprehensive, and then debate whether to keep one sentence or not. This whole discussion is doing it backwards. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 04:57, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
On a side note, I want to give props to the civil and cogent way the RfC has been formatted and approached. It's good to see parties solicit outside perspective before things have gotten caustic an intractable and especially nice to have neutrally worded, clear, and specific inquiries that respondents can easily respond to. So thumbs up to Xcuref1endx, even though I fall just on the other side of the content issue from them. Snow let's rap 04:52, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
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![]() | This article was previously nominated for deletion. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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This article should be deleted. It is completely irrelevant and unnecessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.113.37 ( talk) 16:04, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
I don't think Lindy West is likely to be deleted; I'll add a number of articles about her (other than at The Stranger and Jezebel) which I think would meet the criteria, but you can always try if you wish. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 20:47, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This help request has been answered. If you need more help, you can , contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse. |
I apparently made a "script error" but don't know what that is. 24.97.201.230 ( talk) 17:03, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Information about Lindy West's BMI has been added to the page. This was done in order to suggest some of the reasons she takes a particular interest in the subject of fat shaming. Personal information about Ms. West (namely height and weight) was publicly disclosed on the internet by Ms. West herself, and taken from her own personal website. Accordingly, there should be no concerns about invasion of privacy. The other references are to reputable medical institutions (e.g., the NIH; the University of Rochester). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.189.73.197 ( talk) 10:33, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
You removed today's edit claiming that reliable sources were not cited. However, the primary cited source for the added information was Lindy West's own public website, which per Wikipedia policy is a valid source for bio page purposes. From the guidelines you linked to: "Never use self-published sources – including but not limited to books, zines, websites, blogs, and tweets – as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject (see below)." The information provided is not something "I thought I read on a blog", as you put it. Also, it is unclear how the edits constitute instruction regarding "what people ought to think."
Accordingly, I have restored the added material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.189.73.197 ( talk • contribs) 15:55, 22 October 2014
It's not my definition of obesity; it's the NIH's. And it's based on facts (height/weight) provided by West herself. But in order to avoid the whole issue of making a "medical diagnosis" on Wikipedia, I have simply inserted her statistics as she reports them, without further analysis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.189.73.197 ( talk) 17:50, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
No other reputable publication has drawn attention to West's weight in the way you are doing. The rules of WP:BLP don't allow us to construct our own lines of attack against living persons as you are doing here. You are trying to say, "West criticizes fat shaming, but LOOK she is obese!" It would be acceptable if the New York Times or The Economist said that; we could cite their counterarguments or criticisms. It is not true that the NIH has taken issue with Lindy West's opinions about weight and health. You are the one taking issue with it: one anonymous guy identified at IP 62.189.73.197. If the NIH had issued a response to Lindy West, we could cite that.
What you are doing is lifting facts out of context, and using them in a specific way: to influence how the reader thinks about West's writings on fat shaming. Wikipedia editors don't get to do that. Find a reuptable authority who has responded to West in some way, and cite what they said. Besides WP:BLP and WP:SYNTH, see WP:FRANKIE. Wikipedia has numerous guidelines against this kind of editing. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 18:41, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
This section of the article had been renamed "references". However, its content are not references: they are not citations for specific material contained in the article, nor are they a list of articles consulted as general references in writing the Wikipedia article. Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 00:22, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
And these are connected with the article, for example on the question of whether west was ever a film editor. There was no inline citation for that, but there was a reference. Obviously an inline citation is better, but the next best thing is for the cited facts to be in the references in the bottom. One of several purposes behind citing sources this way is as a stage in the development of better articles. Another purpose is to list sources that establish the notability of a stub. Having a list of credible references often -- not always! -- avoids wasting time in a moot AFD discussion. yes, it would be better to have them all cited inline, but a stub has to start somewhere. And even FAs use the same structure, sometimes. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 00:55, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
"Articles mentioning West" sounds rather snarky. Is that the point? To chip away at notability to make it seem like this article is manufactured drama? -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 01:29, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
I had deleted this quoute "Accepting the award, West said, "I hear a lot these days about the lazy, aimless 'millennials' – about how all we want to do is sit around twerking our iPods and Tweedling our Kardashians – and I also hear people asking, 'Where is the next generation of the social justice movement? Where are all the young feminists and womanists and activists?' Dude, they're on the internet."" I had wrote in the edit summary that it was a notability issue, Dennis Bratland had corrected me on that. However, WP:WEIGHT I would suggest argues against inclusion and it seems a bit soapboxy, considering that the sources that pointed to it were the press release of the award ceremony and a mobile phone recording of the speech at the award ceremony posted to youtube... - Xcuref1endx ( talk) 21:29, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
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This edit summary cites WP:TRIVIA and WP:PROMOTION for deleting mention of the Women's Media Center Social Media Award. If you actually read WP:TRIVIA, it says, right at the top, in a section helpfuly titled "What this is not" that "This guideline does not suggest the inclusion or exclusion of any information; it only gives style recommendations. Issues of inclusion are addressed by content policies." WP:PROMOTION says nothing about deleting mention of awards to anybody. It is not self promotion. It's not advertising. Neither of these arguments makes any sense.
Going back a little earlier, we have the same deletion, with the summary "rmving references to womens media center award, it is primarily sourced, if someone can find a reliable secondary source for it, put it back in" WP:PRIMARY offers no support for this. Primary sources are allowed, and they may be use to support facts. In fact, the most desirable source for who won an award is the organization giving it. Who is the source for the Acadamey Awards for in the Featured Articles Gary Cooper, or Bradley Cooper? The Academy Awards, of course. The FA Zodiac (film) cites -- who else -- the British Film Institute to verify that Zodiac won a British Film Institute award. Just bizarre reasoning.
This is wrong "removed per WP:ELMINOFFICIAL. Link is already included up top". Says we don't include multiple different official websites, such as both davidbowie.com and https://twitter.com/davidbowiereal and all other sites and urls that belong to that person. But we do but davidbowie.com in both the infobox and the external links section, per WP:ELCITE. This is how the Featured Article David Bowie does it, as to dozens of other Featured Articles. Content in indoboxes is almost alwawas duplicated by content in sections. Another bizarre misreading of plain English guidelines.
This one is wrong too. " there is already notes for the work cited". These further readings sources are not cited in the reflist. See MOS:FURTHER.
I could go on, but I'm getting annoyed. These blatantly false excuses for deleting content are not a good choice, and I suggest cutting it out. Tossing around an alphabet soup of WP:XYZABC all caps policy links is not a magic talisman to justify anything you like. You have to at least read WP:XYZABC before you invoke it. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 23:46, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
Why are you even doing this? What is it about this Women's Media Center Award that you are so concerned about? If you want to make this article better, it needs to be expanded to fully cover the subject. There are several points in West's career, that aren't mentioned at all. What are you doing? -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 00:47, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
The discussion here is two part.
I hear a lot these days about the lazy, aimless 'millennials' – about how all we want to do is sit around twerking our iPods and Tweedling our Kardashians – and I also hear people asking, 'Where is the next generation of the social justice movement? Where are all the young feminists and womanists and activists?' Dude, they're on the internet.
provided it does not get WP:UNDUE weightseems contradictory, since weight is, in most cases, based on secondary source coverage (i.e. not what the organization giving awards or the person receiving an award says about it). An award itself has no weight at all simply for existing, regardless of what press releases the sponsoring organization puts out (and regardless of whether those press releases have a connection to the person receiving the award). I could create such an award and give it to someone tomorrow. I would hope that nobody would think it appropriate to then add that award to the recipient's article, let alone a lengthy quote taken from my press release. Someone may say that this award is more significant than the one I just created, but that sort of determination is based on secondary source coverage, not Wikipedians' opinions. Primary sources are fine for basic facts, but do not themselves justify including things like awards and quotes. We can't just include a quote because a Wikipedian thinks it's a good quote or because an organization uses it in a press release. There needs to be a reason to include it. We need a reason to include one quote from a primary source over another -- and we get that reason from secondary sources. There are countless awards put on by countless organizations, personal websites, radio station promotions, etc. and secondary source coverage is, as with most of the rest of Wikipedia, how we determine weight. The secondary sources are why the award should be included, and the determination of whether to include the quote should be based only on secondary source coverage. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 04:42, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
We would want to include counterbalancing criticism, expecially if this were not a BLP. But since it is a living person, policy is to tread lightly on any negativity about the subject. So expect to see the balance shifted away from criticism in a bio of a living person compared with one of a non living person.
In the context of the larger coverage of West, this award and this quote are an approximate microcosm. This is only a stub. A proper article would have nuanced details about the contents of her book, her columns, why she became influential. I'd probably include all or part of the quote "One of the most distinctive voices advancing feminist politics through humor, West is behind a handful of popular pieces — 'How to Make a Rape Joke' on Jezebel, 'Hello, I Am Fat' on The Stranger’s blog, 'Ask Not for Whom the Bell Trolls; It Trolls for Thee' on 'This American Life' — that have helped shift mainstream attitudes about body image, comedy and online harassment over the past several years." from the Times review of Shrill. I'd probably have a lot to add on the 'criticism' of West from Yiannopoulous or Breitbart, since there is extensive secondary sources on this subject. The point being, that once the article has grown to start to cover all the material comprehensively, then individual quotes like this become relatively less significant, and you don't notice them as much. We could delete one if it bothers somebody without making much difference, yet it is unlikely to bother anyone because it's only a drop in the bucket anyway.
The point being, it's so wasteful to quibble over every sentence of a mere stub. Don't like a stub? Add content. Un-stub it, make it big and comprehensive, and then debate whether to keep one sentence or not. This whole discussion is doing it backwards. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 04:57, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
On a side note, I want to give props to the civil and cogent way the RfC has been formatted and approached. It's good to see parties solicit outside perspective before things have gotten caustic an intractable and especially nice to have neutrally worded, clear, and specific inquiries that respondents can easily respond to. So thumbs up to Xcuref1endx, even though I fall just on the other side of the content issue from them. Snow let's rap 04:52, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
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I have just modified one external link on Lindy West. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:30, 23 December 2017 (UTC)