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I don't like how the "Real Lindworms" section speaks in metaphor, with the actual meaning of the metaphor only being revealed by mousing-over the links. -- 220.237.67.125
Of course it applies only to lindworm, or other germanic names that could be derived from the activities of Roman legions in northern Europe roughly 2000 years ago. The "theory" does not apply to earlier myths and sources as the bible, or other areas like China. But then, calling all these different legendary beasts "dragons" is oversimplyfing.
There are hardly any impressive or poisonous snakes in northern Europe, and why would a real tiny worm inspire a myth about a dangerous creature, if not as a metaphor for something that is much bigger and lethal? In the movie The 13th Warrior, the long line of warriors marching at night with torches is compared to a fire-breathing beast, too, if I recall correctly, so this idea is common nowadays. I have not seen a detailed discussion yet, though, but remarks about the "Arminius = dragonslayer" idea are common, see [2] and the link above. Probably, most scientists (historians, linguists) have more serious things to do than proving/disproving a possible real core behind a myth, so it is left to a few outside academia who show interest, while those who like the legend are not at all interested in it getting spoiled by dull historic reality. Due to migration in the first millenium, the Germanic saga could have spread quite far, including Britain, Spain, and developed to include other things. A similar, yet younger and quite opposite comparison is that of Saints killing dragons, a metaphor for the often violent Christianisation of pagans. -- Matthead 14:18, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I remember seeing an image similar to that on the article page in the Lair of the White Worm (film). Would it be fair to say that Bram Stoker, who wrote the book the film was based on, may have been superficially referring to Lindworm legends in the book? Badbilltucker 18:33, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I changed a couple of things.
Firstly the article said that Ragnar wore 'fur-pants', 'pants' is not an encyclopedic word, so it has been altered to 'trousers', if you'd prefer pantaloons or another synonym that's fine but the slang term 'pants' should not be used.
Secondly the article says that Ragnar recieved 'the honorary title of Lodbrok (Fur-Pants)'. My first issue with this is the translation (and the slang usage within); the best and most accepted translation is 'hairy-britches'. Another problem with this passage is that Lodbrok is not an honorific title but rather a byname. I have altered these problems. 84.68.90.133 09:54, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 22:51, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
It is often shown wingless, whith a poisonous bite, like the Komodo dragon.
Er, how is a poisonous bite depicted in heraldry? — Tamfang ( talk) 04:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
I move a section here for discussion:
This text looks a bit too omniscient about the mindset of Viking Age Scandinavians, and I not been able to find any support for these statements on the meaning of linnormr in my etymological dictionary (Hellquist 1922).-- Berig ( talk) 16:57, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
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Hello @ Gyrkin:: I saw that you removed the photograph of a runestone with a lindworm that was used in the infobox of the earlier versions this article, and replaced it with a drawing that's identified as your own work. Could I ask why you made the change? I think the earlier version was better because it illustrates an actual historical use of the figure. Also tagging user @ Berig: who added the original image, in case they want to weigh in on this discussion. Thanks, Kbseah ( talk) 17:56, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
It is a unspoken rule on websites such as Wikipedia that the article should be representative. What do I mean by that. That runestone doesn't show what a lindworm looks like. Does a lindworm look like a runestone? It is a unspoken rule on Wikipedia that each article should have a representative picture if there is one. We don't know certainly how chupacabra actually looks like because the descriptions vary drastically from story to story and because of that there is no picture of chupacabra in chupacabra wiki article. But we do know how lindworms look like, and there are different versions of lindworms, whether it looks like a classic lindworm, a wyvern or four-legged dragon. I putted the picture of a classic lindworm because it is the most common depiction of lindworm and because it is the closest to original myth.
P.S. You can put that runestone image somewhere below the table of contents if you want.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Gyrkin ( talk • contribs)
Misunderstandings like the one I just deleted happen when you try to use translations of translations of translations. Saxo Grammaticus' Gesta Danorum 9.4.4-7 actually says (bold emphasis mine):
Tertio item ac quarto Scanis Hallandisque felici auspicio domitis, in Thoram Herothi regis filiam nuptiarum amore converso, sibi ac Lathgerthae repudium interiecit. Damnabat enim coniugis fidem, quam olim in perniciem suam summae ferocitatis beluas admovisse meminerat. Interea rex Sueonum Herothus, silvas forte venatione complexus, repertas a comitibus angues filiae detulit nutriendas. Illa paterno ocius obsecuta praecepto, vipereum (viper) genus virgineis manibus educare sustinuit; quin etiam curae habuit, ut integrum bovis cadaver earum quotidie satietati suppeteret, ignorans se privato pabulo publicam sustentare perniciem. Quae cum adultae pestilentissimo halitu viciniam urerent, rex, inertis operae paenitens, potiturum filia, qui pestem amovisset, edixit. Quo non minori fortitudinis quam libidinis incitamento frequens iuventus adducta periculosam inaniter operam erogabat. Cuius rei summam Regnerus ab intermeantibus expertus, laneum a nutrice sagulum villosaque admodum femoralia, quibus inflictos anguium morsus (snake bite) elideret, expetivit. Procedenti inusitatae magnitudinis obvius allabitur serpens (serpent)...
-- Gunnora ( talk) 14:56, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
The article repeatedly states that lindworms do not have wings, and their winglessness is the way to differentiate them from dragons and wyverns. Yet most pictures of lindworm given in the article show lindworms with wings. Should there be some notice that while certain sources define the lindworm as wingless, in depictions, it often has, making it indistinguishable from wyverns? 2A02:810D:840:16A3:19C9:AB2A:51C1:3871 ( talk) 10:35, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
So as the title says, this article should be split into Lindworm (the creature), Lindworm (heraldry) and Runic animal. Serpent creatures on runestones are not confirmed to be depictions of Lindworms. In Sweden we call these runestone dragons (rundrake) as our traditional lindworms lack limbs. Then there are lindworms in heraldry, which seems have their own set of rules. One dude told me that more or less any dragon in heraldry is called lindworm. Blockhaj ( talk) 08:04, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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I don't like how the "Real Lindworms" section speaks in metaphor, with the actual meaning of the metaphor only being revealed by mousing-over the links. -- 220.237.67.125
Of course it applies only to lindworm, or other germanic names that could be derived from the activities of Roman legions in northern Europe roughly 2000 years ago. The "theory" does not apply to earlier myths and sources as the bible, or other areas like China. But then, calling all these different legendary beasts "dragons" is oversimplyfing.
There are hardly any impressive or poisonous snakes in northern Europe, and why would a real tiny worm inspire a myth about a dangerous creature, if not as a metaphor for something that is much bigger and lethal? In the movie The 13th Warrior, the long line of warriors marching at night with torches is compared to a fire-breathing beast, too, if I recall correctly, so this idea is common nowadays. I have not seen a detailed discussion yet, though, but remarks about the "Arminius = dragonslayer" idea are common, see [2] and the link above. Probably, most scientists (historians, linguists) have more serious things to do than proving/disproving a possible real core behind a myth, so it is left to a few outside academia who show interest, while those who like the legend are not at all interested in it getting spoiled by dull historic reality. Due to migration in the first millenium, the Germanic saga could have spread quite far, including Britain, Spain, and developed to include other things. A similar, yet younger and quite opposite comparison is that of Saints killing dragons, a metaphor for the often violent Christianisation of pagans. -- Matthead 14:18, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I remember seeing an image similar to that on the article page in the Lair of the White Worm (film). Would it be fair to say that Bram Stoker, who wrote the book the film was based on, may have been superficially referring to Lindworm legends in the book? Badbilltucker 18:33, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I changed a couple of things.
Firstly the article said that Ragnar wore 'fur-pants', 'pants' is not an encyclopedic word, so it has been altered to 'trousers', if you'd prefer pantaloons or another synonym that's fine but the slang term 'pants' should not be used.
Secondly the article says that Ragnar recieved 'the honorary title of Lodbrok (Fur-Pants)'. My first issue with this is the translation (and the slang usage within); the best and most accepted translation is 'hairy-britches'. Another problem with this passage is that Lodbrok is not an honorific title but rather a byname. I have altered these problems. 84.68.90.133 09:54, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 22:51, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
It is often shown wingless, whith a poisonous bite, like the Komodo dragon.
Er, how is a poisonous bite depicted in heraldry? — Tamfang ( talk) 04:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
I move a section here for discussion:
This text looks a bit too omniscient about the mindset of Viking Age Scandinavians, and I not been able to find any support for these statements on the meaning of linnormr in my etymological dictionary (Hellquist 1922).-- Berig ( talk) 16:57, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Lindworm. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 08:38, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello @ Gyrkin:: I saw that you removed the photograph of a runestone with a lindworm that was used in the infobox of the earlier versions this article, and replaced it with a drawing that's identified as your own work. Could I ask why you made the change? I think the earlier version was better because it illustrates an actual historical use of the figure. Also tagging user @ Berig: who added the original image, in case they want to weigh in on this discussion. Thanks, Kbseah ( talk) 17:56, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
It is a unspoken rule on websites such as Wikipedia that the article should be representative. What do I mean by that. That runestone doesn't show what a lindworm looks like. Does a lindworm look like a runestone? It is a unspoken rule on Wikipedia that each article should have a representative picture if there is one. We don't know certainly how chupacabra actually looks like because the descriptions vary drastically from story to story and because of that there is no picture of chupacabra in chupacabra wiki article. But we do know how lindworms look like, and there are different versions of lindworms, whether it looks like a classic lindworm, a wyvern or four-legged dragon. I putted the picture of a classic lindworm because it is the most common depiction of lindworm and because it is the closest to original myth.
P.S. You can put that runestone image somewhere below the table of contents if you want.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Gyrkin ( talk • contribs)
Misunderstandings like the one I just deleted happen when you try to use translations of translations of translations. Saxo Grammaticus' Gesta Danorum 9.4.4-7 actually says (bold emphasis mine):
Tertio item ac quarto Scanis Hallandisque felici auspicio domitis, in Thoram Herothi regis filiam nuptiarum amore converso, sibi ac Lathgerthae repudium interiecit. Damnabat enim coniugis fidem, quam olim in perniciem suam summae ferocitatis beluas admovisse meminerat. Interea rex Sueonum Herothus, silvas forte venatione complexus, repertas a comitibus angues filiae detulit nutriendas. Illa paterno ocius obsecuta praecepto, vipereum (viper) genus virgineis manibus educare sustinuit; quin etiam curae habuit, ut integrum bovis cadaver earum quotidie satietati suppeteret, ignorans se privato pabulo publicam sustentare perniciem. Quae cum adultae pestilentissimo halitu viciniam urerent, rex, inertis operae paenitens, potiturum filia, qui pestem amovisset, edixit. Quo non minori fortitudinis quam libidinis incitamento frequens iuventus adducta periculosam inaniter operam erogabat. Cuius rei summam Regnerus ab intermeantibus expertus, laneum a nutrice sagulum villosaque admodum femoralia, quibus inflictos anguium morsus (snake bite) elideret, expetivit. Procedenti inusitatae magnitudinis obvius allabitur serpens (serpent)...
-- Gunnora ( talk) 14:56, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
The article repeatedly states that lindworms do not have wings, and their winglessness is the way to differentiate them from dragons and wyverns. Yet most pictures of lindworm given in the article show lindworms with wings. Should there be some notice that while certain sources define the lindworm as wingless, in depictions, it often has, making it indistinguishable from wyverns? 2A02:810D:840:16A3:19C9:AB2A:51C1:3871 ( talk) 10:35, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
So as the title says, this article should be split into Lindworm (the creature), Lindworm (heraldry) and Runic animal. Serpent creatures on runestones are not confirmed to be depictions of Lindworms. In Sweden we call these runestone dragons (rundrake) as our traditional lindworms lack limbs. Then there are lindworms in heraldry, which seems have their own set of rules. One dude told me that more or less any dragon in heraldry is called lindworm. Blockhaj ( talk) 08:04, 30 June 2022 (UTC)