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Archive 1 |
sure why not? house cats cross breed all the time.
Ligers were mentioned offhand on NPR's Day to Day today. The story was on footprints found of a large wild cat; the reporter mentions that people thought it could be a lion, a tiger, or a liger. BenFrantzDale 03:45, Feb 24, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, although many people think that the liger is an invention of Napoleon Dynamite (and the creators may or may not have been aware of the existence of the animal when they wrote the movie), they are real. Here's a National Geographic article that mentions one, and includes a picture. -- LostLeviathan 11:24, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Duh ligers are real, ever heard of a thing called crossbreeding? lion+tigeress=liger Lioness+tiger=tigon 69.115.46.242 23:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
while watching the National Geographic Channel, the man in the photo with Hercules was explaining some things about Sindbad, amazingly Sindbad was said to be at the same weight the article is currently describing as Hercules can Sindbad and Hercules be one? renamed, have multiple names, or even that the picture is for Sindbad not Hercules. One last pharaoh ( talk) 15:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC) 5:27PD Friday Feb 22, 2008
No response, ok now no one would blame me for deleting it right? 12:17MD 23 February 2008 One last pharaoh ( talk) 22:17, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
This page was proposed for deletion December 2004. The archived discussion is available at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Liger.
FOR EVERYBODY WHO HAS SEEN NAPOLEON DYNAMITE, LIGERS ARE BRED FOR THEIR SKILLS IN MAGIC.
A liger was featured on ABC's Good Morning America on February 18th, 2005.
I did some reading about lion X tiger crosses. My reading was that they were all sterile, just like mules. This is one of the reasons that the crosses are done by amateurs, and in safari parks, not in zoos, which are supposed to be run scientifically. Tigers are endangered. The sterility of the offspring means that the genetic potential of the tiger is being wasted.
I also read the crosses were dangerous, because tigers were instinctively solitary, and lions were instinctively social. The crosses were drawn both ways. -- Geo Swan 01:15, 2005 Mar 2 (UTC)
The article is actually rather vague about the topic of sterility in ligers. The article states, "The hormonal hypothesis is that the cause of the male liger's growth is its sterility — essentially, the male liger remains in the pre-pubertal growth phase. This is not upheld by behavioural evidence - despite being sterile, many male ligers become sexually mature and mate with females. Male ligers also have the same levels of testosterone ng/dl on average as an adult male lion. In addition, female ligers also attain great size, weighing approximately 700 lb (320 kg) and reaching 10 feet (3.05 m) long on average, but are often fertile" at the end of the section describing the large size, but in the following section, the article says, "Ligers are not sterile, and they can reproduce. If a liger were to reproduce with a tiger, it would be called a ti-liger, and if it were to reproduce with a lion, it would be call a li-liger. The fertility of hybrid big cat females is well-documented across a number of different hybrids. This is in accordance with Haldane's rule: in hybrids of animals whose gender is determined by sex chromosomes, if one gender is absent, rare or sterile, it is the heterogametic sex (the one with two different sex chromosomes e.g. X and Y)". It seems to be saying that only the females are fertile while the males are sterile, yet this could be clearer. I'll change the beginning of the fertility section to specify females only, and if it is incorrect, the article can be changed back, taking into account the numerous instances which state the males are sterile.-- Tiberius47 12:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Well that's not really an accurate, at all. The Male ligers are sertile, but not females which can be be bred again with a tiger & a lion. I'd like to know if you can back & forth.
I didn't write the article on ligers here, but the liger pictured, 'Hobbs' is one of the big cats I care for at the Sierra Safari Zoo. Hobbs is a very wise, intelligent cat that is very posessive of several people who work with him, myself included. Hobbs really enjoys companionship, and gets very upset when I have to leave. Hobbs is very emotional as well, and I have even seen him cry. Hobbs loves to invent new games, but he leaves it up to me to figure out the 'rules'! In any case, I count it one of the great priveliges of my life to care for such a magnificent animal.
Hobbs was an accident. He was not born here. (Many ligers are accidents.) He lives with a orange female tiger, named 'Tasha'. Although Hobbs 'services' Tasha when she is in heat, there have been no cubs (nor do we expect cubs) in the 7 years that have been together. Ligers are rarely fertile, about 3 in 100 are fertile. Tigons, on the other hand, are fertile about 1/3 the time. And Hobb's weight is pretty accurate as listed, with the range being 800-1,000 pounds (363 - 455 kg). He gets 14 pounds (6.4 kg) of commercial feline diet (mainly raw meat) a day, 6 days a week. (We fast our big cats one day a week, which is a common practice with captive big cats.) Hobbs is enormously strong. We occasionally will get whole (dead) deer to feed to our cats. He can eat an entire deer, bones and all, (including the skull and pelvis) in about 8 hours.
Is Hobbs more dangerous than other big cats? Yes, and no. For me, he is more dangerous. Since he 'owns' me in a unique way, he thinks I am another liger. So, he would play with me very roughly if I were to go in with him. For others he does not 'own' he is handleable and is even leash trained. (We haven't had him 'out' since he was 2 years of age, and we don't intend to in the future.)
Ligers grow diffently depending on its gender. If it's female, it's weight is up to 700 pounds. If it's a male, its weight can be 1000 pounds. The average length is 4-6 feet plus a 3 foot tail.
If a Liger can be bred with either a tiger or lion (Assuming it's fertile), and Tigons can also be bred with tigers or lions, can a Liger be bred with a Tigon? What would you call the babies? Litigoners?
Hobbs' keeper says "Ligers are rarely fertile, about 3 in 100 are fertile. Tigons, on the other hand, are fertile about 1/3 the time." The article says "Male ligers are sterile. Female ligers are often fertile..." Can anyone provide more information?
What part of the evolutionary tree are these classified in? Shouldn't they be considered part of the evolutionary tree, after all? -- Natalinasmpf 14:26, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What is the reason why the section on "Ligers in popular culture" was removed? There doesn't seem to be any explanation here in the discussion, and I think that it is worth noting. -- InformationalAnarchist 7 July 2005 19:27 (UTC)
Also, What is the reason the entry on slang in computer games (most specifically Myth) within this section was removed? "*Slang in Myth (computer game) for an awful but boastful player. Often a derogatory term used to set apart those lacking social graces. Similar to n00b." Seems to be both relative to "Pop Culture" (as its related to Bungie) and relative to "Pop Culture References"?
I dont really think that this 'Myth' computer game ref. deserves to be in an encyclopedia. Looking at the history it appears to have originated as some kind of dig at someone inparticular.
"The original PlayMyth.net Liger (who was previously a 'raider' on Bungie.net) has since been permanantly banned, but he still insists he is part of the community." - this is not relevant, some anecdote about an antisocial gamer is not worthy material
I have thrice edited this page, the first time my edit was removed. The author made a gross factual error with his assertion that there are genes which could only be inherited from the mother, this is grossly innacurate. The only way a gene could be only inherited from the mother is if it is on the X chromosome of a male.
One of the common criticism of the free internet as a source of information is it's unreliability, unless wikipedia is vigilant about these things they will never recieve the respect they want.
That is the second time my thoughtfull edits where taken down. I am not sure why wikipedia refuses to correct the glaring inaccuracies of their webpage.
Since this seems to be the only place that doesn't have posts taken down, let me explain once more why the article is wrong, wrong, wrong.
The article theorizes, "Ligers grow much larger than tigers or lions and it is believed this is because female lions transmit a growth-inhibiting gene to their descendants to balance the growth-promoting gene transmitted by male lions (this gene is due to competitive mating strategies in lions). Being the offspring of a male lion and female tiger, the liger inherits the growth-promoting gene, but does not have the growth-inhibiting gene and typically grows larger than either animal; this is called growth dysplasia......"
The article first of all does not even claim that there is a growth inhibiting gene, it claims that it is possible that there is a growth inhibiting gene that could only be passed on by a female lion. This is of course impossible, and shows a complete lack of understanding of even the most basic biological principles. There is no gene which can only be passed on by a mother. Why:
All animals have an even number of chromosomes, when sex cells are created the body randomly selects half these chromosomes. Males have an X and a Y chromosome females have two XX's, when sperm are created they can either contain an X or a Y chromosome. If a sperm without a Y chromosome fertilizes an egg then the result will be a female child, if the sperm has a Y chromosome the child will be male. You cannot inherit a Y chromosome from your mother because she does not have one. The Y chromosome is the only difference between males and females (genetically). Since you inherit an X chromosome from your father if you are female then there is no such thing as a gene which can only be passed on by mothers.
Okay before I edit the page I want to make sure that you have a source for this claim that all Ligers(both males and females) grow twice as large as either lions or tigers, while all Tigons do not grow as much. Female Tigons and Female Ligers should be genetically identical, therefore the idea that one has growth dysplasia and the other doesn't contradicts established thought. The only possibility would have to do with the mechanics of reproduction. Lion sperm is somehow damaged in the process of fertilizing tiger eggs, and this causes a growth inhibition gene to be destroyed (but it doesn't affect the growth enhancement gene).
After thinking about it for a while that seems to be the only plausible explanation. I'll post a new edit tommorow.
it would be nice to include a picture - Stoph 22:15, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Some Pictures of Hobbs at the Reno Safari Zoo can be seen here: [1] [2] [3]
I've removed the following:
A.A. Milne, in chapter 3, "Tiggers Can't Climb Trees", said Under exceptional circumstances it has been known for a tiger to be forced into ranges inhabited by the Asian lion, Panthera leo persica, which is the same genus as the tiger. Rare reports have been made of tigresses mating with lions in the wild and producing offspring known as ligers. When a tiger and a lioness mate the cub is called a tigon.
It may be a valid quote, but A.A. Milne wrote about fictional Tigger, not mating habits of the tiger. The citation is wrong, unless I've gone completely mad.
With regard to Liger size the one subject that has not been explored is Heterosis.
Should there be a note on pronounciation? Just reading the article and not having it heard outloud I am confused whether the 'g' would be hard as in tiger, or soft. -- Sajendra 05:22, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia's Tigon and Liger articles contain info on Lady Kali, a ti-liger. However, the articles both initially merely repeated the claims made by her owners that she was part of a "research programme" and "behavioural" study. Note the British spellings to describe what is actually a roadside zoo with two felines, run by two guys in North Carolina. There is no breeding program, no genetic research program, and no behavioral study, and no scientific report (or any report at all that I could find, not even anecdotes on their website) of results of any such programs or studies.
What there IS, and I've provided a link to a copy of it, is a 2004 report from the local paper stating that the animals are "sisters" (highly unlikely in the genetic sense, since even their owners admit they are eight years apart in age), and that both have been on exhibit for "at least five years" (taking Lady Kali's birth back to at least 1999) while their owners have been evicted from one roadside location after another. From the news report, these two felines are apparently the only two animals these men display, though there is a photo of a very young chimp and of a capuchin monkey on their website (who may be private pets or visitors). Again, no evidence whatsoever of a breeding, behavioral, or genetic research program.
As to their age, their website refers to the two animals as "two" and "ten," but is undated, so no accurate birthyear can be estimated from that. The website also contains copies of USDA licenses, with the latest expiring in late 2006. The licenses confirm the names of the men involved (also referenced in the news item) and provides a Fayetteville, NC address on the most recent license, so it's safe to say that the animals are still in NC in 2006.
Though the reliable information is scanty, I think SOME reference to Lady Kali is worth leaving in the Tigon and Liger articles. I corrected the info and provided links to the Lady Kali webpage and the definition of USDA Class C Exhibitor, and patched minor typo's elsewhere in the text. I also provided a live link to the text of the 1994 News-Observer news item about the evictions. The newspaper's own link has gone dead, but can be viewed by reading Google's cached copy. It is identical to the live copy still published via the Captive Wild Animal Protection Coalition on the link I provided. -- Lisasmall 21:01, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
This article is infested with poor explanations of specialist degree level ideas. There are genes which are only inherited from the mother but without a proper explanation any intelligent person with school-level biology understanding will automatically try to correct that assertion. The result is that although you are all essentially right, collectively you've produced a contradicting article that makes no sense. You might find it helpful to read the two points below before attempting to clear up the article.
1) Maternal Effect:
Before fertilisation the mother deposits proteins and mRNA (this is the midway stage in DNA reading- so effectively half-translated genes) into the egg. This has a massive effect on how the offspring develops. It doesn't change the DNA of the offspring, so it is not "inherited" as such. But lion mothers will deposit one set or proteins and tiger mothers another- so genetically identical offspring might still grow up different.
It is the most likely reason for the majority of differences between the ligers and tigons.
2) Maternal Inheritance:
As the article says half our nuclear DNA (this is most of it- our chromosomes) comes from each parent. Inside our cells we have mitochondria which have some DNA of their own and replicate semi-independently. These mitochondria are already present in both sperm and egg, but when the egg is fertilised the father's mitochondria are destroyed. Therefore the genes in mitochondria come only from the mother.
BUT mitochondrial DNA codes only for things directly related to the mitochondria so it is highly unlikely that they would contain a growth inhibition gene. So stop trying to explain it in this article because not only is it complicated and boring it is also totally irrelevant!
nelnpg@aol.com 17th Feb2006
Why oh why is this happening?
I saw somewhere that some zoos have ligers at the moment. Is this true, and, if so, does anyone know which ones? JellyFish72 22:00, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The Sierra Safari Zoo outside reno, NV has Hobbs, a male Liger.
"According to "The Tiger, Symbol of Freedom" (Nicholas Courtney, editor), rare reports have been made of tigresses mating with lions in the wild." This seems highly unlikely given where tigresses and lions are found in the wild (i.e. generally not in the same place). Zetetic Apparatchik 21:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
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So, a good bit of the size discussion sounds like original research because scientific opinions are unattributed (making them read like the opinion of Wikipedia authors) and lack citations. Reading the above genetics discussions, which are noticiably lacking in any references, doesn't reassure me.
I went through and marked what I thought needed citations and attribution. Any hypothesis for which a reputable citation can't be produced should be removed. I also moved the G. Peters line to a Further reading because I didn't see much point in bringing a paper up without mentioning a single one of it's conclusions. — Laura Scudder ☎ 18:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Liger's are so cute!
In the section "Explanations from a science pie!" it said that when the chicken egg is fertilised the father's mitochondria is destroyed which is why mitochondrial DNA comes only from the mother. This is said to happen with all animals, not just the ligers. I find that correct as recent research suggests that during fertilization the mitochondria of both parents fuses. So technically speaking even in mitochondria DNA comes from both parents, so there are no genes that can only be passed on from the mother. By the way, I am useless when it comes to looking for references so please do ask me for them.
According to Big Cat Hybrids( [5] [6], It is possible to breed a Black Liger, though technically, it wouldn't be a purebred as it would contain Jaguar genes. Here is a summarized version of what is on the Big Cat Hybrid pages and the description of the theoretical breeding of a Black Liger.
Quote #1:
On April 9, 2006, two Jaglions were born at Bear Creek Wildlife Sanctuary, Barrie (north of Toronto), Ontario following an accidental mating. Jahzara (female,) and Tsunami (male) were the result of a mating between a black male jaguar (Diablo) and a lioness (Lola). The sanctuary does not deliberately breed animals as keeps believed Lola would not conceive. As an added precaution, the pair were separated when Lola came into oestrus. They had been hand-raised together and were inseparable, becoming anxiuos and depressed every time separation was attempted. Lola pined during attempted separations. Jahzara is melanistic, a dominant trait in jaguars, while Tsunami is spotted. It was not previously known how the jaguar's melanism gene would interact with lion colouration genes. Because female big cat hybrids are frequently fertile, Jahzara could theoretically be bred back to purebred lions to introduce the gene for melanism into that species.
End Quote #1.
Quote #2:
EXAMPLE: BACKCROSSING LION TO TIGER
A female liger is 50% lion and 50% tiger. This is backcrossed to a purebred male tiger. At each generation, the female offspring is backcrossed to a purebred male tiger. The percentage of tiger genes goes up in each generation until they reach 99% at which point it could be considered purebred. It will never quite reach a round total of 100%.
The lion and tiger genes won't be inherited in neat 50/50 splits, so breeders talk of "pure-bloodedness" instead. How close is each generation to being a pureblooded tiger? The arithmetic here is rounded up to one or two decimal places.
F1 cross: 50%, F2 backcross: 75%, F3 backcross: 87.5%, F4 backcross 93.75%.
Once the hybrid is 90% one species or the other, the male hybrids are likely to be fertile (based on information from Bengal and Savannah cat breeders). Each successive backcross after that gives:
96.9%, 98.5%, 99.25%, 99.6%, 99.8%, 99.9%
End Quote #2.
Relevant Details: Jahzara (Jaglion) is melanistic, a dominant trait in jaguars. Because female big cat hybrids are frequently fertile, Jahzara could theoretically be bred back to purebred lions to introduce the gene for melanism into that species. The percentage of Lion genes goes up in each generation until they reach 99% at which point it could be considered purebred.
Conclusion: Take a female Jaguon (Jaguar/Lion) F1 and backcross it to the F7 generation (While retaining the melanistic gene), at which point it would be considered a purebred Lion.Take a female Jagger (Jaguar/Tiger) F1 and backcross it to the F7 generation (While retaining the melanistic gene), at which point it would be considered a purebred Tiger. Cross the male Black Lion to the female Black Tiger. Result: Black Ligers.
I set this section apart so that anyone wishing to discuss the Black Liger do so here. I would rather that the main section contain only the information. Any comment on the main section will be transferred here. - 21:47, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
In the tigon article, it says, "It is a common misconception that Tigons are smaller than lions or tigers. They do not exceed the size of their parent species because they inherit growth-inhibitory genes from the lioness mother, but they do not exhibit any kind of dwarfism or miniaturisation; they often weigh around 150 kilograms (350 lb)."
This article, on the other hand, says, "When a male lion mates with a tigress, his genes promote large offspring. The tigress does not inhibit the growth because she is adapted to a non-competitive strategy. Therefore the liger offspring grows larger than either parent. When a male tiger mates with a lioness, his genes are not promoting large growth of the offspring, but the lioness's genes still inhibit their growth. Hence tigons are often smaller and less robust than either parent."
I don't know who is right; whether the person who wrote that section of the liger article was suffering from the misconception mentioned in the tigon article, or if the author of the tigon article was misinformed, and I don't know how to find out which is correct. But if someone does know, and has a reputable source--or if someone knows that this is still a subject of debate--then I would suggest that they correct one of the articles.
What about a negative view on these hybrids. The lion and especially the tiger are endangered species. By creating useless infertile hybrids of these animals you are not helping the conservation of either of the species. Breeding tigers (and than also not mixing the subspecies) to increase their numbers seem to me a better thing to do. Maybe worth mentioning or to think about. Peter Maas 11:24, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I added the Black Liger info. to the Liger Talk page. I think that many people would be interested in reading the info. Should I add the info. or a link to the Black Liger section of the Talk page to the article? If you are reading this, please write your opinion. - 20:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
It's been three days and nobody has answered. I'm going to add a link to the info. on the page. If anyone feels that the info. is not necessary or otherwise incorrect please say so here on the talk page before removing the link. - 15:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
P.S. I'm going to check back often. - 15:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
this is cool i learned so much thank you 4m ana —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.81.192.100 ( talk) 18:35, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
A spot check on the Ligers in popular culture section showed few references in the corresponding articles to this one, and no sources for ANY of the information. I removed the section once, it was restored in its original fashion, so I have cut it again, but I am making a note here so that the article's editors can discuss it further if you like. I think a popular culture/trivia section does not add anything to the understanding of this article (or tigon, where I removed a one-liner), but if the consensus is otherwise, I won't block an appropriate readdition. -- nae' blis 16:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
There is a lot of redundant and repetative information here. For example, the last section is a complete repetition of earlier sections. This should be deleted or altered in a way that provides useful information.
WHY DOES THIS ARTICLE NOT SUFFER FROM SO MUCH VANDALISM?!!! - 21:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
how do we remove the following sentence:
"what it be, hoe. it's no name. long live TM. what up."
It's already been removed. But to answer your question, you could either click on the "edit this page" tab at the bottom of the page, find the words and delete them or you could go to the history of the page, click on the last version and click on "save page". The latter method is called reverting. - 12:12, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
"In recent news, a young scientist, Nick Allen, became the owner and operator of a liger preservation & research facility. In doing this action he was thrust to the forefront of liger research. People all over the globe have praised his efforts to create a new liger. In November 2006 Nick Allen was mauled by one of his ligers, and was sent to an intensive care unit. He is expected to die in a few weeks."
Riiiight. Cite plz.
From the blog of “Julia M” on Yahoo 360:
Atulsnischal 23:20, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
is this edit correct, or is it sneaky vandalism? Which is the correct terminology: lili, or li-ligers? Or should both be added? Thanks, delldot | talk 19:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure lili/titi was vandalism. | AndonicO Talk · Sign Here 14:16, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
My biggest problem with this article has been the lack of scientific backing. I spent the time to research hybrid animals, and the resulting research from showed that the way Ligers and Tigons have been listed in the reverse to what the scientific articles indicate. So where is the information coming from? Cite sources! I'm not saying my research was right, I'm saying it's scientific secondary source and I wrote down where I got the information. A work of fiction like Napolean Dynamite is not a reliable source. Also remember that you cannot change cited text without changing our removing the citation source because you are then not citing correctly, and it's misrepresentative. -- Waterspyder 15:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
The article in it's current version reads:
The liger, is a hybrid cross between a female panthera leo (lion), and a male panthera tigris (Tiger) and is denoted scientifically as panthera leo x panthera tigris
I think this is wrong because I read somewhere else (britannica, wordnet) that ligers come from a male lion and a female tiger. So, what gives? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 90.153.128.11 ( talk) 23:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC).
It fine now, it probably vandalism. You might also have been confused with the part explaining Tigons, but it was probably the former. | AndonicO Talk · Sign Here 14:19, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
This intro text is a complete mess -- and the article is locked. It seems to need editing more than protection : )
(Maybe some vandalism was going on?)
"According to The Tiger, Symbol of Freedom rare reports have been made of tigresses mating with lions [MATING OR PRODUCING OFFSPRING?] in the wild.[2] Under exceptional circumstances it has been known for a tiger to be forced into ranges inhabited by the Asiatic Lion, Panthera leo persica, which is the same species as the tiger [FALSE - DIFFERENT SPECIES!]. Reports have been made of tigresses mating with lions in the wild and producing offspring known as ligers.[3] [COMPLETELY REPEATS PRECEDING ARTICLE IDEAS] This would have referred to [PERSONAL SUPPOSITION AS FACT, RESEARCH IT AND GET THE ANSWER!] the Gir Forest in India where the ranges of Asiatic Lions and Bengal Tigers overlap [I THOUGHT THE TIGERS WERE "FORCED INTO THE RANGES" OF THE LION, ABOVE]. This combination of species in the wild however is considered improbable [INTERBREEDING OF SPECIES IN WILD IS NOT IMPROBABLE -- IT IS SOURCE OF THE red wolf -- THIS SENTENCE SHOULD CLARIFY ONLY THAT SUCH SIGHTINGS ARE COMPLETELY UNCONFIRMED].[4]" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.6.253.130 ( talk) 12:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC).
Also, the article is not fully protected, only semi-protected. This is due to constant vandalism from IP addresses. All you need to do to edit the page yourself is to register an account, and let the acocunt aga a few days. Then you will be able to make the edits, and all will be credited to you. - TexasAndroid 21:10, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I did not know something like Ligers and Tigons even existed. At first I thought the article was complete hoax. Now I know better. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sisodia ( talk • contribs) 06:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC).
I don't know, but that photo looks awfully fake. -- Colinstu 05:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
First I cleaned up a reference to a supposed Eddie Murphy 1998 stand-up tour mentioning ligers, then added a "citation needed":
Now I'm just taking it out. I find no evidence to support such a tour, on his Wikipedia page or Internet search. -- WWB 02:15, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I wrote the Black Liger section a long time ago, believing it to be legitimate information; however, a quick look at Wikipedia:No original research has led me to believe that it constitutes original research. I would like to request a review by someone experienced in identifying original research, to ascertain the information's current status. - 22:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I think this hibrid Liger/ Tion stuff is unntural, crule and inviably steril to! God dose not like us playing with his creations!-- Nadezda-Tatiania 14:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
shut up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.232.9.108 ( talk) 03:47, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
You are assuming that lions and tigers are being forced to mate together, or being artificially inseminated. Horses and donkeys mate and have mules. Horny animals in captivity will find whatever outlet possible. Often lions and tigers that are put together are believed to be incapable of giving birth to begin with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.170.138.196 ( talk) 13:46, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
The metric to imperial conversion for the Bloemfontein Liger is innacurate. Assuming the imperial measure is correct, the value should be 798kg, not 1008kg. Edits I earlier made were automatically reverted, so, I'm leaving this on the discussion page. Also: any other non-wikipedia reference I can find on the net shows the Bloemfontein 1973 Guinness world record entry at 750lbs, not 1756lbs as listed in this article. Perhaps someone with access to a 1973 Guinness book of world records could validate/correct this.( Majikaltrev 12:43, 4 July 2007 (UTC)) (I forgot to sign when I added this.)
Are there references for this declaration? Mazak writes: It counts as a rule, that Bastards (Tiger and lion) are large, sometimes even slightly larger than their parents. ( Heterosis)... May be statements like this are over-interpretated in this article...
And if this is based just on the wheight, it´s actually not a good evidence, that they are really bigger than tigers. It might be due to such unnatural fat animal like this one. -- Altaileopard 12:16, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Recent edits removed the following:
..., which is a different species to the tiger, Panthera tigris. Another area where the ranges of Asiatic Lions and Bengal Tigers overlap is in the Gir Forest in India;...
with a follow on statement to the effect that lions and tigers natural ranges do not overlap. This is a significant change to the article and should likely be cited. -- Majikaltrev 12:58, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
The reference is offline, can be found at web.archive.org, but nowhere it states that the liger individual is not obese. I think it's very debatable.-- Extremophile 17:14, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Is it a real thing or is it a fictional thing, If it's true, This could be our first living Impossible creature. Bingodile 14:36, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
It's Real(Anon.)
What about [[Zoids]]? It has Ligers in it,right?(Anon.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.76.251.119 ( talk) 10:56, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
How does it is regarding the parent's sexes? If this article uses it correctly, the female species come first; then the tigon would be P. leo x P. tigris. But does this distinction really exists? Or both the tigon and the liger are interchangeably P. leo x P. tigris and P. tigris x P. leo? And any sort of hybrid would "automatically" have its hybrid scientific name from this simple rule, or does it have to be "official", the species has to be scientifically "baptized" in some publication? -- Extremophile ( talk) 16:27, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Although there is no such rule, it is most common to put the name of the male parent followed by the name of the female parent as follows: Panthera leo x Panthera tigris, or the shorthand version Panthera leo/tigris (this only works if the genus is the same, otherwise the form with the "x" has to be used —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.89.247.164 ( talk) 00:09, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
sure why not? house cats cross breed all the time.
Ligers were mentioned offhand on NPR's Day to Day today. The story was on footprints found of a large wild cat; the reporter mentions that people thought it could be a lion, a tiger, or a liger. BenFrantzDale 03:45, Feb 24, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, although many people think that the liger is an invention of Napoleon Dynamite (and the creators may or may not have been aware of the existence of the animal when they wrote the movie), they are real. Here's a National Geographic article that mentions one, and includes a picture. -- LostLeviathan 11:24, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Duh ligers are real, ever heard of a thing called crossbreeding? lion+tigeress=liger Lioness+tiger=tigon 69.115.46.242 23:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
while watching the National Geographic Channel, the man in the photo with Hercules was explaining some things about Sindbad, amazingly Sindbad was said to be at the same weight the article is currently describing as Hercules can Sindbad and Hercules be one? renamed, have multiple names, or even that the picture is for Sindbad not Hercules. One last pharaoh ( talk) 15:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC) 5:27PD Friday Feb 22, 2008
No response, ok now no one would blame me for deleting it right? 12:17MD 23 February 2008 One last pharaoh ( talk) 22:17, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
This page was proposed for deletion December 2004. The archived discussion is available at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Liger.
FOR EVERYBODY WHO HAS SEEN NAPOLEON DYNAMITE, LIGERS ARE BRED FOR THEIR SKILLS IN MAGIC.
A liger was featured on ABC's Good Morning America on February 18th, 2005.
I did some reading about lion X tiger crosses. My reading was that they were all sterile, just like mules. This is one of the reasons that the crosses are done by amateurs, and in safari parks, not in zoos, which are supposed to be run scientifically. Tigers are endangered. The sterility of the offspring means that the genetic potential of the tiger is being wasted.
I also read the crosses were dangerous, because tigers were instinctively solitary, and lions were instinctively social. The crosses were drawn both ways. -- Geo Swan 01:15, 2005 Mar 2 (UTC)
The article is actually rather vague about the topic of sterility in ligers. The article states, "The hormonal hypothesis is that the cause of the male liger's growth is its sterility — essentially, the male liger remains in the pre-pubertal growth phase. This is not upheld by behavioural evidence - despite being sterile, many male ligers become sexually mature and mate with females. Male ligers also have the same levels of testosterone ng/dl on average as an adult male lion. In addition, female ligers also attain great size, weighing approximately 700 lb (320 kg) and reaching 10 feet (3.05 m) long on average, but are often fertile" at the end of the section describing the large size, but in the following section, the article says, "Ligers are not sterile, and they can reproduce. If a liger were to reproduce with a tiger, it would be called a ti-liger, and if it were to reproduce with a lion, it would be call a li-liger. The fertility of hybrid big cat females is well-documented across a number of different hybrids. This is in accordance with Haldane's rule: in hybrids of animals whose gender is determined by sex chromosomes, if one gender is absent, rare or sterile, it is the heterogametic sex (the one with two different sex chromosomes e.g. X and Y)". It seems to be saying that only the females are fertile while the males are sterile, yet this could be clearer. I'll change the beginning of the fertility section to specify females only, and if it is incorrect, the article can be changed back, taking into account the numerous instances which state the males are sterile.-- Tiberius47 12:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Well that's not really an accurate, at all. The Male ligers are sertile, but not females which can be be bred again with a tiger & a lion. I'd like to know if you can back & forth.
I didn't write the article on ligers here, but the liger pictured, 'Hobbs' is one of the big cats I care for at the Sierra Safari Zoo. Hobbs is a very wise, intelligent cat that is very posessive of several people who work with him, myself included. Hobbs really enjoys companionship, and gets very upset when I have to leave. Hobbs is very emotional as well, and I have even seen him cry. Hobbs loves to invent new games, but he leaves it up to me to figure out the 'rules'! In any case, I count it one of the great priveliges of my life to care for such a magnificent animal.
Hobbs was an accident. He was not born here. (Many ligers are accidents.) He lives with a orange female tiger, named 'Tasha'. Although Hobbs 'services' Tasha when she is in heat, there have been no cubs (nor do we expect cubs) in the 7 years that have been together. Ligers are rarely fertile, about 3 in 100 are fertile. Tigons, on the other hand, are fertile about 1/3 the time. And Hobb's weight is pretty accurate as listed, with the range being 800-1,000 pounds (363 - 455 kg). He gets 14 pounds (6.4 kg) of commercial feline diet (mainly raw meat) a day, 6 days a week. (We fast our big cats one day a week, which is a common practice with captive big cats.) Hobbs is enormously strong. We occasionally will get whole (dead) deer to feed to our cats. He can eat an entire deer, bones and all, (including the skull and pelvis) in about 8 hours.
Is Hobbs more dangerous than other big cats? Yes, and no. For me, he is more dangerous. Since he 'owns' me in a unique way, he thinks I am another liger. So, he would play with me very roughly if I were to go in with him. For others he does not 'own' he is handleable and is even leash trained. (We haven't had him 'out' since he was 2 years of age, and we don't intend to in the future.)
Ligers grow diffently depending on its gender. If it's female, it's weight is up to 700 pounds. If it's a male, its weight can be 1000 pounds. The average length is 4-6 feet plus a 3 foot tail.
If a Liger can be bred with either a tiger or lion (Assuming it's fertile), and Tigons can also be bred with tigers or lions, can a Liger be bred with a Tigon? What would you call the babies? Litigoners?
Hobbs' keeper says "Ligers are rarely fertile, about 3 in 100 are fertile. Tigons, on the other hand, are fertile about 1/3 the time." The article says "Male ligers are sterile. Female ligers are often fertile..." Can anyone provide more information?
What part of the evolutionary tree are these classified in? Shouldn't they be considered part of the evolutionary tree, after all? -- Natalinasmpf 14:26, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What is the reason why the section on "Ligers in popular culture" was removed? There doesn't seem to be any explanation here in the discussion, and I think that it is worth noting. -- InformationalAnarchist 7 July 2005 19:27 (UTC)
Also, What is the reason the entry on slang in computer games (most specifically Myth) within this section was removed? "*Slang in Myth (computer game) for an awful but boastful player. Often a derogatory term used to set apart those lacking social graces. Similar to n00b." Seems to be both relative to "Pop Culture" (as its related to Bungie) and relative to "Pop Culture References"?
I dont really think that this 'Myth' computer game ref. deserves to be in an encyclopedia. Looking at the history it appears to have originated as some kind of dig at someone inparticular.
"The original PlayMyth.net Liger (who was previously a 'raider' on Bungie.net) has since been permanantly banned, but he still insists he is part of the community." - this is not relevant, some anecdote about an antisocial gamer is not worthy material
I have thrice edited this page, the first time my edit was removed. The author made a gross factual error with his assertion that there are genes which could only be inherited from the mother, this is grossly innacurate. The only way a gene could be only inherited from the mother is if it is on the X chromosome of a male.
One of the common criticism of the free internet as a source of information is it's unreliability, unless wikipedia is vigilant about these things they will never recieve the respect they want.
That is the second time my thoughtfull edits where taken down. I am not sure why wikipedia refuses to correct the glaring inaccuracies of their webpage.
Since this seems to be the only place that doesn't have posts taken down, let me explain once more why the article is wrong, wrong, wrong.
The article theorizes, "Ligers grow much larger than tigers or lions and it is believed this is because female lions transmit a growth-inhibiting gene to their descendants to balance the growth-promoting gene transmitted by male lions (this gene is due to competitive mating strategies in lions). Being the offspring of a male lion and female tiger, the liger inherits the growth-promoting gene, but does not have the growth-inhibiting gene and typically grows larger than either animal; this is called growth dysplasia......"
The article first of all does not even claim that there is a growth inhibiting gene, it claims that it is possible that there is a growth inhibiting gene that could only be passed on by a female lion. This is of course impossible, and shows a complete lack of understanding of even the most basic biological principles. There is no gene which can only be passed on by a mother. Why:
All animals have an even number of chromosomes, when sex cells are created the body randomly selects half these chromosomes. Males have an X and a Y chromosome females have two XX's, when sperm are created they can either contain an X or a Y chromosome. If a sperm without a Y chromosome fertilizes an egg then the result will be a female child, if the sperm has a Y chromosome the child will be male. You cannot inherit a Y chromosome from your mother because she does not have one. The Y chromosome is the only difference between males and females (genetically). Since you inherit an X chromosome from your father if you are female then there is no such thing as a gene which can only be passed on by mothers.
Okay before I edit the page I want to make sure that you have a source for this claim that all Ligers(both males and females) grow twice as large as either lions or tigers, while all Tigons do not grow as much. Female Tigons and Female Ligers should be genetically identical, therefore the idea that one has growth dysplasia and the other doesn't contradicts established thought. The only possibility would have to do with the mechanics of reproduction. Lion sperm is somehow damaged in the process of fertilizing tiger eggs, and this causes a growth inhibition gene to be destroyed (but it doesn't affect the growth enhancement gene).
After thinking about it for a while that seems to be the only plausible explanation. I'll post a new edit tommorow.
it would be nice to include a picture - Stoph 22:15, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Some Pictures of Hobbs at the Reno Safari Zoo can be seen here: [1] [2] [3]
I've removed the following:
A.A. Milne, in chapter 3, "Tiggers Can't Climb Trees", said Under exceptional circumstances it has been known for a tiger to be forced into ranges inhabited by the Asian lion, Panthera leo persica, which is the same genus as the tiger. Rare reports have been made of tigresses mating with lions in the wild and producing offspring known as ligers. When a tiger and a lioness mate the cub is called a tigon.
It may be a valid quote, but A.A. Milne wrote about fictional Tigger, not mating habits of the tiger. The citation is wrong, unless I've gone completely mad.
With regard to Liger size the one subject that has not been explored is Heterosis.
Should there be a note on pronounciation? Just reading the article and not having it heard outloud I am confused whether the 'g' would be hard as in tiger, or soft. -- Sajendra 05:22, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia's Tigon and Liger articles contain info on Lady Kali, a ti-liger. However, the articles both initially merely repeated the claims made by her owners that she was part of a "research programme" and "behavioural" study. Note the British spellings to describe what is actually a roadside zoo with two felines, run by two guys in North Carolina. There is no breeding program, no genetic research program, and no behavioral study, and no scientific report (or any report at all that I could find, not even anecdotes on their website) of results of any such programs or studies.
What there IS, and I've provided a link to a copy of it, is a 2004 report from the local paper stating that the animals are "sisters" (highly unlikely in the genetic sense, since even their owners admit they are eight years apart in age), and that both have been on exhibit for "at least five years" (taking Lady Kali's birth back to at least 1999) while their owners have been evicted from one roadside location after another. From the news report, these two felines are apparently the only two animals these men display, though there is a photo of a very young chimp and of a capuchin monkey on their website (who may be private pets or visitors). Again, no evidence whatsoever of a breeding, behavioral, or genetic research program.
As to their age, their website refers to the two animals as "two" and "ten," but is undated, so no accurate birthyear can be estimated from that. The website also contains copies of USDA licenses, with the latest expiring in late 2006. The licenses confirm the names of the men involved (also referenced in the news item) and provides a Fayetteville, NC address on the most recent license, so it's safe to say that the animals are still in NC in 2006.
Though the reliable information is scanty, I think SOME reference to Lady Kali is worth leaving in the Tigon and Liger articles. I corrected the info and provided links to the Lady Kali webpage and the definition of USDA Class C Exhibitor, and patched minor typo's elsewhere in the text. I also provided a live link to the text of the 1994 News-Observer news item about the evictions. The newspaper's own link has gone dead, but can be viewed by reading Google's cached copy. It is identical to the live copy still published via the Captive Wild Animal Protection Coalition on the link I provided. -- Lisasmall 21:01, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
This article is infested with poor explanations of specialist degree level ideas. There are genes which are only inherited from the mother but without a proper explanation any intelligent person with school-level biology understanding will automatically try to correct that assertion. The result is that although you are all essentially right, collectively you've produced a contradicting article that makes no sense. You might find it helpful to read the two points below before attempting to clear up the article.
1) Maternal Effect:
Before fertilisation the mother deposits proteins and mRNA (this is the midway stage in DNA reading- so effectively half-translated genes) into the egg. This has a massive effect on how the offspring develops. It doesn't change the DNA of the offspring, so it is not "inherited" as such. But lion mothers will deposit one set or proteins and tiger mothers another- so genetically identical offspring might still grow up different.
It is the most likely reason for the majority of differences between the ligers and tigons.
2) Maternal Inheritance:
As the article says half our nuclear DNA (this is most of it- our chromosomes) comes from each parent. Inside our cells we have mitochondria which have some DNA of their own and replicate semi-independently. These mitochondria are already present in both sperm and egg, but when the egg is fertilised the father's mitochondria are destroyed. Therefore the genes in mitochondria come only from the mother.
BUT mitochondrial DNA codes only for things directly related to the mitochondria so it is highly unlikely that they would contain a growth inhibition gene. So stop trying to explain it in this article because not only is it complicated and boring it is also totally irrelevant!
nelnpg@aol.com 17th Feb2006
Why oh why is this happening?
I saw somewhere that some zoos have ligers at the moment. Is this true, and, if so, does anyone know which ones? JellyFish72 22:00, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The Sierra Safari Zoo outside reno, NV has Hobbs, a male Liger.
"According to "The Tiger, Symbol of Freedom" (Nicholas Courtney, editor), rare reports have been made of tigresses mating with lions in the wild." This seems highly unlikely given where tigresses and lions are found in the wild (i.e. generally not in the same place). Zetetic Apparatchik 21:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
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So, a good bit of the size discussion sounds like original research because scientific opinions are unattributed (making them read like the opinion of Wikipedia authors) and lack citations. Reading the above genetics discussions, which are noticiably lacking in any references, doesn't reassure me.
I went through and marked what I thought needed citations and attribution. Any hypothesis for which a reputable citation can't be produced should be removed. I also moved the G. Peters line to a Further reading because I didn't see much point in bringing a paper up without mentioning a single one of it's conclusions. — Laura Scudder ☎ 18:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Liger's are so cute!
In the section "Explanations from a science pie!" it said that when the chicken egg is fertilised the father's mitochondria is destroyed which is why mitochondrial DNA comes only from the mother. This is said to happen with all animals, not just the ligers. I find that correct as recent research suggests that during fertilization the mitochondria of both parents fuses. So technically speaking even in mitochondria DNA comes from both parents, so there are no genes that can only be passed on from the mother. By the way, I am useless when it comes to looking for references so please do ask me for them.
According to Big Cat Hybrids( [5] [6], It is possible to breed a Black Liger, though technically, it wouldn't be a purebred as it would contain Jaguar genes. Here is a summarized version of what is on the Big Cat Hybrid pages and the description of the theoretical breeding of a Black Liger.
Quote #1:
On April 9, 2006, two Jaglions were born at Bear Creek Wildlife Sanctuary, Barrie (north of Toronto), Ontario following an accidental mating. Jahzara (female,) and Tsunami (male) were the result of a mating between a black male jaguar (Diablo) and a lioness (Lola). The sanctuary does not deliberately breed animals as keeps believed Lola would not conceive. As an added precaution, the pair were separated when Lola came into oestrus. They had been hand-raised together and were inseparable, becoming anxiuos and depressed every time separation was attempted. Lola pined during attempted separations. Jahzara is melanistic, a dominant trait in jaguars, while Tsunami is spotted. It was not previously known how the jaguar's melanism gene would interact with lion colouration genes. Because female big cat hybrids are frequently fertile, Jahzara could theoretically be bred back to purebred lions to introduce the gene for melanism into that species.
End Quote #1.
Quote #2:
EXAMPLE: BACKCROSSING LION TO TIGER
A female liger is 50% lion and 50% tiger. This is backcrossed to a purebred male tiger. At each generation, the female offspring is backcrossed to a purebred male tiger. The percentage of tiger genes goes up in each generation until they reach 99% at which point it could be considered purebred. It will never quite reach a round total of 100%.
The lion and tiger genes won't be inherited in neat 50/50 splits, so breeders talk of "pure-bloodedness" instead. How close is each generation to being a pureblooded tiger? The arithmetic here is rounded up to one or two decimal places.
F1 cross: 50%, F2 backcross: 75%, F3 backcross: 87.5%, F4 backcross 93.75%.
Once the hybrid is 90% one species or the other, the male hybrids are likely to be fertile (based on information from Bengal and Savannah cat breeders). Each successive backcross after that gives:
96.9%, 98.5%, 99.25%, 99.6%, 99.8%, 99.9%
End Quote #2.
Relevant Details: Jahzara (Jaglion) is melanistic, a dominant trait in jaguars. Because female big cat hybrids are frequently fertile, Jahzara could theoretically be bred back to purebred lions to introduce the gene for melanism into that species. The percentage of Lion genes goes up in each generation until they reach 99% at which point it could be considered purebred.
Conclusion: Take a female Jaguon (Jaguar/Lion) F1 and backcross it to the F7 generation (While retaining the melanistic gene), at which point it would be considered a purebred Lion.Take a female Jagger (Jaguar/Tiger) F1 and backcross it to the F7 generation (While retaining the melanistic gene), at which point it would be considered a purebred Tiger. Cross the male Black Lion to the female Black Tiger. Result: Black Ligers.
I set this section apart so that anyone wishing to discuss the Black Liger do so here. I would rather that the main section contain only the information. Any comment on the main section will be transferred here. - 21:47, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
In the tigon article, it says, "It is a common misconception that Tigons are smaller than lions or tigers. They do not exceed the size of their parent species because they inherit growth-inhibitory genes from the lioness mother, but they do not exhibit any kind of dwarfism or miniaturisation; they often weigh around 150 kilograms (350 lb)."
This article, on the other hand, says, "When a male lion mates with a tigress, his genes promote large offspring. The tigress does not inhibit the growth because she is adapted to a non-competitive strategy. Therefore the liger offspring grows larger than either parent. When a male tiger mates with a lioness, his genes are not promoting large growth of the offspring, but the lioness's genes still inhibit their growth. Hence tigons are often smaller and less robust than either parent."
I don't know who is right; whether the person who wrote that section of the liger article was suffering from the misconception mentioned in the tigon article, or if the author of the tigon article was misinformed, and I don't know how to find out which is correct. But if someone does know, and has a reputable source--or if someone knows that this is still a subject of debate--then I would suggest that they correct one of the articles.
What about a negative view on these hybrids. The lion and especially the tiger are endangered species. By creating useless infertile hybrids of these animals you are not helping the conservation of either of the species. Breeding tigers (and than also not mixing the subspecies) to increase their numbers seem to me a better thing to do. Maybe worth mentioning or to think about. Peter Maas 11:24, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I added the Black Liger info. to the Liger Talk page. I think that many people would be interested in reading the info. Should I add the info. or a link to the Black Liger section of the Talk page to the article? If you are reading this, please write your opinion. - 20:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
It's been three days and nobody has answered. I'm going to add a link to the info. on the page. If anyone feels that the info. is not necessary or otherwise incorrect please say so here on the talk page before removing the link. - 15:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
P.S. I'm going to check back often. - 15:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
this is cool i learned so much thank you 4m ana —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.81.192.100 ( talk) 18:35, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
A spot check on the Ligers in popular culture section showed few references in the corresponding articles to this one, and no sources for ANY of the information. I removed the section once, it was restored in its original fashion, so I have cut it again, but I am making a note here so that the article's editors can discuss it further if you like. I think a popular culture/trivia section does not add anything to the understanding of this article (or tigon, where I removed a one-liner), but if the consensus is otherwise, I won't block an appropriate readdition. -- nae' blis 16:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
There is a lot of redundant and repetative information here. For example, the last section is a complete repetition of earlier sections. This should be deleted or altered in a way that provides useful information.
WHY DOES THIS ARTICLE NOT SUFFER FROM SO MUCH VANDALISM?!!! - 21:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
how do we remove the following sentence:
"what it be, hoe. it's no name. long live TM. what up."
It's already been removed. But to answer your question, you could either click on the "edit this page" tab at the bottom of the page, find the words and delete them or you could go to the history of the page, click on the last version and click on "save page". The latter method is called reverting. - 12:12, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
"In recent news, a young scientist, Nick Allen, became the owner and operator of a liger preservation & research facility. In doing this action he was thrust to the forefront of liger research. People all over the globe have praised his efforts to create a new liger. In November 2006 Nick Allen was mauled by one of his ligers, and was sent to an intensive care unit. He is expected to die in a few weeks."
Riiiight. Cite plz.
From the blog of “Julia M” on Yahoo 360:
Atulsnischal 23:20, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
is this edit correct, or is it sneaky vandalism? Which is the correct terminology: lili, or li-ligers? Or should both be added? Thanks, delldot | talk 19:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure lili/titi was vandalism. | AndonicO Talk · Sign Here 14:16, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
My biggest problem with this article has been the lack of scientific backing. I spent the time to research hybrid animals, and the resulting research from showed that the way Ligers and Tigons have been listed in the reverse to what the scientific articles indicate. So where is the information coming from? Cite sources! I'm not saying my research was right, I'm saying it's scientific secondary source and I wrote down where I got the information. A work of fiction like Napolean Dynamite is not a reliable source. Also remember that you cannot change cited text without changing our removing the citation source because you are then not citing correctly, and it's misrepresentative. -- Waterspyder 15:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
The article in it's current version reads:
The liger, is a hybrid cross between a female panthera leo (lion), and a male panthera tigris (Tiger) and is denoted scientifically as panthera leo x panthera tigris
I think this is wrong because I read somewhere else (britannica, wordnet) that ligers come from a male lion and a female tiger. So, what gives? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 90.153.128.11 ( talk) 23:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC).
It fine now, it probably vandalism. You might also have been confused with the part explaining Tigons, but it was probably the former. | AndonicO Talk · Sign Here 14:19, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
This intro text is a complete mess -- and the article is locked. It seems to need editing more than protection : )
(Maybe some vandalism was going on?)
"According to The Tiger, Symbol of Freedom rare reports have been made of tigresses mating with lions [MATING OR PRODUCING OFFSPRING?] in the wild.[2] Under exceptional circumstances it has been known for a tiger to be forced into ranges inhabited by the Asiatic Lion, Panthera leo persica, which is the same species as the tiger [FALSE - DIFFERENT SPECIES!]. Reports have been made of tigresses mating with lions in the wild and producing offspring known as ligers.[3] [COMPLETELY REPEATS PRECEDING ARTICLE IDEAS] This would have referred to [PERSONAL SUPPOSITION AS FACT, RESEARCH IT AND GET THE ANSWER!] the Gir Forest in India where the ranges of Asiatic Lions and Bengal Tigers overlap [I THOUGHT THE TIGERS WERE "FORCED INTO THE RANGES" OF THE LION, ABOVE]. This combination of species in the wild however is considered improbable [INTERBREEDING OF SPECIES IN WILD IS NOT IMPROBABLE -- IT IS SOURCE OF THE red wolf -- THIS SENTENCE SHOULD CLARIFY ONLY THAT SUCH SIGHTINGS ARE COMPLETELY UNCONFIRMED].[4]" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.6.253.130 ( talk) 12:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC).
Also, the article is not fully protected, only semi-protected. This is due to constant vandalism from IP addresses. All you need to do to edit the page yourself is to register an account, and let the acocunt aga a few days. Then you will be able to make the edits, and all will be credited to you. - TexasAndroid 21:10, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I did not know something like Ligers and Tigons even existed. At first I thought the article was complete hoax. Now I know better. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sisodia ( talk • contribs) 06:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC).
I don't know, but that photo looks awfully fake. -- Colinstu 05:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
First I cleaned up a reference to a supposed Eddie Murphy 1998 stand-up tour mentioning ligers, then added a "citation needed":
Now I'm just taking it out. I find no evidence to support such a tour, on his Wikipedia page or Internet search. -- WWB 02:15, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I wrote the Black Liger section a long time ago, believing it to be legitimate information; however, a quick look at Wikipedia:No original research has led me to believe that it constitutes original research. I would like to request a review by someone experienced in identifying original research, to ascertain the information's current status. - 22:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I think this hibrid Liger/ Tion stuff is unntural, crule and inviably steril to! God dose not like us playing with his creations!-- Nadezda-Tatiania 14:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
shut up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.232.9.108 ( talk) 03:47, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
You are assuming that lions and tigers are being forced to mate together, or being artificially inseminated. Horses and donkeys mate and have mules. Horny animals in captivity will find whatever outlet possible. Often lions and tigers that are put together are believed to be incapable of giving birth to begin with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.170.138.196 ( talk) 13:46, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
The metric to imperial conversion for the Bloemfontein Liger is innacurate. Assuming the imperial measure is correct, the value should be 798kg, not 1008kg. Edits I earlier made were automatically reverted, so, I'm leaving this on the discussion page. Also: any other non-wikipedia reference I can find on the net shows the Bloemfontein 1973 Guinness world record entry at 750lbs, not 1756lbs as listed in this article. Perhaps someone with access to a 1973 Guinness book of world records could validate/correct this.( Majikaltrev 12:43, 4 July 2007 (UTC)) (I forgot to sign when I added this.)
Are there references for this declaration? Mazak writes: It counts as a rule, that Bastards (Tiger and lion) are large, sometimes even slightly larger than their parents. ( Heterosis)... May be statements like this are over-interpretated in this article...
And if this is based just on the wheight, it´s actually not a good evidence, that they are really bigger than tigers. It might be due to such unnatural fat animal like this one. -- Altaileopard 12:16, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Recent edits removed the following:
..., which is a different species to the tiger, Panthera tigris. Another area where the ranges of Asiatic Lions and Bengal Tigers overlap is in the Gir Forest in India;...
with a follow on statement to the effect that lions and tigers natural ranges do not overlap. This is a significant change to the article and should likely be cited. -- Majikaltrev 12:58, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
The reference is offline, can be found at web.archive.org, but nowhere it states that the liger individual is not obese. I think it's very debatable.-- Extremophile 17:14, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Is it a real thing or is it a fictional thing, If it's true, This could be our first living Impossible creature. Bingodile 14:36, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
It's Real(Anon.)
What about [[Zoids]]? It has Ligers in it,right?(Anon.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.76.251.119 ( talk) 10:56, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
How does it is regarding the parent's sexes? If this article uses it correctly, the female species come first; then the tigon would be P. leo x P. tigris. But does this distinction really exists? Or both the tigon and the liger are interchangeably P. leo x P. tigris and P. tigris x P. leo? And any sort of hybrid would "automatically" have its hybrid scientific name from this simple rule, or does it have to be "official", the species has to be scientifically "baptized" in some publication? -- Extremophile ( talk) 16:27, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Although there is no such rule, it is most common to put the name of the male parent followed by the name of the female parent as follows: Panthera leo x Panthera tigris, or the shorthand version Panthera leo/tigris (this only works if the genus is the same, otherwise the form with the "x" has to be used —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.89.247.164 ( talk) 00:09, 26 January 2008 (UTC)